From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 1 00:15:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Sun Jun 1 00:15:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 2003, Paul Tansom wrote: > OK, not a good title for a Linux list, but I couldn't resist commenting > on my first attempt at installing Windows XP (Professional) given that > people often say Linux is hard to install. > > First off, there seemed very few questions to answer - Windows assumed > it knew best for just about everything, and boy was it wrong?! The end > result goes something like this: > > A: - my 3.5" floppy > B: - my 5.25" floppy sorry, I have to ask.... 5.25"? Why? From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jun 1 00:29:02 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sun Jun 1 00:29:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> Message-ID: <01b301c327cc$521fc010$0100a8c0@meep> > Next comes the networking side of things: > > IE - fine, can browse the Internet and is pretty fast, can also browse > my local Intranet > Explorer - cannot see any other machines on the network, when it should > be able to see two other Windows 2000 boxes > > From the other Windows 2000 boxes the machine shows up in Network > Neighbourhood, but when I try to see what is shared I get an error > saying the machine is not accessible. > > Conclusion - Windows XP does not integrate easily into an existing > Windows network! I installed Windows XP on the same day as you and everything worked first time and it connected to my (XP) network, saw all the shares and connected to Internet Connection Sharing with one simple wizard. I think XP is very good at networking with other XP machines but it's notoriously bad for administration on big networks with NT/2000/2003 running on them. I found a hard disk installation of Knoppix almost as easy to connect to a Windows network, and considering it ISN'T windows, I think that's pretty darned impressive! There are even graphic interfaces available to make samba even easier I believe! I'm not sure why Windows has to reboot after every little change, although XP seems a little better in this respect. As for being off topic, don't think people are too fussy. There have now been about 30 posts on what the correct way to reply to a mailing list is... Ben "tola" Francis From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jun 1 00:38:02 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sun Jun 1 00:38:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> Message-ID: <01c401c327cd$934e5870$0100a8c0@meep> > > A: - my 3.5" floppy > > B: - my 5.25" floppy > > sorry, I have to ask.... > > 5.25"? Why? I believe it takes a little longer for things to start to fossilise, although it must be getting pretty close. Keep up with oiling the moving parts ;) I've only ever seen a 5.25 floppy on a BBC... actually I think I saw one on a 486 once. It surprises me that Windows XP still supports them... Ben "tola" Francis From lists at ashleyhowes.com Sun Jun 1 10:03:02 2003 From: lists at ashleyhowes.com (Ashley) Date: Sun Jun 1 10:03:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> <01b301c327cc$521fc010$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <003401c3281c$9a0cc7b0$6601a8c0@xplaptop> > > From the other Windows 2000 boxes the machine shows up in Network > > Neighbourhood, but when I try to see what is shared I get an error > > saying the machine is not accessible. > > > > Conclusion - Windows XP does not integrate easily into an existing > > Windows network! > > I installed Windows XP on the same day as you and everything worked first > time and it connected to my (XP) network, saw all the shares and connected > to Internet Connection Sharing with one simple wizard. I think XP is very > good at networking with other XP machines but it's notoriously bad for > administration on big networks with NT/2000/2003 running on them. This may be because the NetBEUI protocol is NOT installed by default in Windows XP. Based on my experience, Windows XP defaults to sharing folders over TCP/IP. In fact, those shares are advertised over the internet as well! In order to get Windows XP to communicate with my older Windows boxes, I had to install NetBEUI from the XP disc by following the below tutorial: http://www.homenethelp.com/web/howto/HomeNet-Win2kXP.asp -- Ashley T. Howes Ph.D. From paul at aptanet.com Sun Jun 1 10:07:02 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Sun Jun 1 10:07:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <01b301c327cc$521fc010$0100a8c0@meep> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> <01b301c327cc$521fc010$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <20030601090418.GA17315@aptanet.com> ** Ben Francis [2003-06-01 00:28]: > > Next comes the networking side of things: > > > > IE - fine, can browse the Internet and is pretty fast, can also browse > > my local Intranet > > Explorer - cannot see any other machines on the network, when it should > > be able to see two other Windows 2000 boxes > > > > From the other Windows 2000 boxes the machine shows up in Network > > Neighbourhood, but when I try to see what is shared I get an error > > saying the machine is not accessible. > > > > Conclusion - Windows XP does not integrate easily into an existing > > Windows network! > > I installed Windows XP on the same day as you and everything worked first > time and it connected to my (XP) network, saw all the shares and connected > to Internet Connection Sharing with one simple wizard. I think XP is very > good at networking with other XP machines but it's notoriously bad for > administration on big networks with NT/2000/2003 running on them. I think I've cracked that one now, although it's pretty poor that it is not straightforward to integrate into an existing Windows based network. The daft thing is that it integrated fine with my Linux boxes because they don't use any of the Windows proprietary stuff - i.e. it's quite happy with the standards based networking! I spent an hour or so playing first time around (not constant as I was basically trying to transfer files onto my ZIP drive for someone (my father-in-law who was doing some work in the garden so I was in and out). Anyway, after an hour it hadn't discovered any other machines in Network Neighbourhood, and other machines that could see it couldn't connect to it. When I came back to it a few hours later I spotted some configuration that sets a secure challenge and response for connecting to other Windows machines - once this was disabled things burst into life. I'm still not happy with the installation though - particularly the drive lettering! I also don't have any icons on the desktop apart from a trash can - it doesn't affect my usage, but is a little concerning since I'm sure there should be some! > I found a hard disk installation of Knoppix almost as easy to connect to a > Windows network, and considering it ISN'T windows, I think that's pretty > darned impressive! There are even graphic interfaces available to make samba > even easier I believe! Not tried a HD install of that, I'm a solid raw Debian user myself, although Gentoo is intriguing me so I may give that a go. > I'm not sure why Windows has to reboot after every little change, although > XP seems a little better in this respect. Windows 2000 was the first step at improving that issue theoretically, but I still had to do two reboots to install a USB modem on my first install of that - which seemed very odd for a supposedly plug and play bus/device on an OS that was aiming to reduce the need for reboots! > As for being off topic, don't think people are too fussy. There have now > been about 30 posts on what the correct way to reply to a mailing list is... Oh dear, that was my fault too! ** end quote [Ben Francis] -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From paul at aptanet.com Sun Jun 1 10:14:02 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Sun Jun 1 10:14:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <003401c3281c$9a0cc7b0$6601a8c0@xplaptop> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> <01b301c327cc$521fc010$0100a8c0@meep> <003401c3281c$9a0cc7b0$6601a8c0@xplaptop> Message-ID: <20030601091144.GB17315@aptanet.com> ** Ashley [2003-06-01 10:04]: > > > From the other Windows 2000 boxes the machine shows up in Network > > > Neighbourhood, but when I try to see what is shared I get an error > > > saying the machine is not accessible. > > > > > > Conclusion - Windows XP does not integrate easily into an existing > > > Windows network! > > > > I installed Windows XP on the same day as you and everything worked first > > time and it connected to my (XP) network, saw all the shares and connected > > to Internet Connection Sharing with one simple wizard. I think XP is very > > good at networking with other XP machines but it's notoriously bad for > > administration on big networks with NT/2000/2003 running on them. > > This may be because the NetBEUI protocol is NOT installed by default in > Windows XP. Based on my experience, Windows XP defaults to sharing folders > over TCP/IP. In fact, those shares are advertised over the internet as > well! > > In order to get Windows XP to communicate with my older Windows boxes, I had > to install NetBEUI from the XP disc by following the below tutorial: > http://www.homenethelp.com/web/howto/HomeNet-Win2kXP.asp ** end quote [Ashley] That would depend significantly on your existing setup. I don't use NetBEUI at all on my home network and never have. In fact when I hook up the odd Win31 machine I tent to replace NetBEUI on that with TCP/IP as well - although it's a separate download to get hold of it. I rarely if ever do that now, although I did hook my parents old 386 up to their new machine a few months back. Yes, the services that Windows leaves open is a nightmare. I hooked up a Windows 2000 machine to the Internet via NTL a week or so back and within a couple of minutes of doing it I had a popup message on the screen from somewhere. I very quickly disabled the Messenger service! -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From paul at aptanet.com Sun Jun 1 10:19:01 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Sun Jun 1 10:19:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <01c401c327cd$934e5870$0100a8c0@meep> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> <01c401c327cd$934e5870$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <20030601091608.GC17315@aptanet.com> ** Ben Francis [2003-06-01 00:38]: > > > A: - my 3.5" floppy > > > B: - my 5.25" floppy > > > > sorry, I have to ask.... > > > > 5.25"? Why? Because I have one and I can?! I can't say as I've used it in a long while, but I did have to transfer a batch of data across from 5.25" media a few years back, so since it's available and I have a spare bay in the machine I dropped it in. If I need the bay it'll probably end up in one of my servers just in case! > I believe it takes a little longer for things to start to fossilise, > although it must be getting pretty close. Keep up with oiling the moving > parts ;) > > I've only ever seen a 5.25 floppy on a BBC... actually I think I saw one on > a 486 once. It surprises me that Windows XP still supports them... I used to use them on some old XT and AT boxes some years back. I never had any 8 bit computers that used 5.25". My Amstrad used the ill fated 3" disks and my Amiga had the low density 3.5" ones. Of course I now have a BBC with 5.25" and 3.5" drives, but that's a whole different story! ** end quote [Ben Francis] -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From c at wizball.co.uk Sun Jun 1 10:59:01 2003 From: c at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Sun Jun 1 10:59:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> Message-ID: <20030531231334.GD1284@cablaptop> On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 11:44:12PM +0100, Paul Tansom wrote: > OK, not a good title for a Linux list, but I couldn't resist commenting > on my first attempt at installing Windows XP (Professional) given that > people often say Linux is hard to install. Blah. Everything is difficult to install ;) > First off, there seemed very few questions to answer - Windows assumed > it knew best for just about everything, and boy was it wrong?! The end > result goes something like this: > > A: - my 3.5" floppy > B: - my 5.25" floppy > C: - my ZIP drive > D: - my DVD ROM > E: - my CD RW > F: - same CD RW as above > G: - same CD RW as above > H: - same CD RW as above > I: - same CD RW as above > J: - same CD RW as above > K: - same CD RW as above > L: - same CD RW as above > M: - my hard disk with Windows XP installed on it Sounds like a screwed up settings. Never ever had this problem. > Next comes the networking side of things: > > IE - fine, can browse the Internet and is pretty fast, can also browse > my local Intranet > Explorer - cannot see any other machines on the network, when it should > be able to see two other Windows 2000 boxes Of course, IE browse the internet real quick. Though opera wins miles ahead. I read a paper about how IE was being able to render sites quickly... very interesting. Though, IE is considered 'old' nowadays... > >From the other Windows 2000 boxes the machine shows up in Network > Neighbourhood, but when I try to see what is shared I get an error > saying the machine is not accessible. > > Conclusion - Windows XP does not integrate easily into an existing > Windows network! Typical of Windows to do that. I remember telling Windows 95/98 to pick up the local network neighbourhood at our monthly LAN nights. Normally the problems are located right down to the LAN card, wrong IP set up etc. Oh the hassles..... One thing, microsoft really did good at.. office, money and er... that's it ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From W.B.Hill at uea.ac.uk Sun Jun 1 12:25:02 2003 From: W.B.Hill at uea.ac.uk (wbh) Date: Sun Jun 1 12:25:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 2003, Paul Tansom wrote: > E: - my CD RW > F: - same CD RW as above > G: - same CD RW as above > H: - same CD RW as above > I: - same CD RW as above > J: - same CD RW as above > K: - same CD RW as above > L: - same CD RW as above A SCSI CD RW set to answer on every LUN? From paul at aptanet.com Sun Jun 1 13:35:01 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Sun Jun 1 13:35:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> Message-ID: <20030601123301.GE17315@aptanet.com> ** wbh [2003-06-01 12:25]: > On Sat, 31 May 2003, Paul Tansom wrote: > > > E: - my CD RW > > F: - same CD RW as above > > G: - same CD RW as above > > H: - same CD RW as above > > I: - same CD RW as above > > J: - same CD RW as above > > K: - same CD RW as above > > L: - same CD RW as above > > A SCSI CD RW set to answer on every LUN? > ** end quote [wbh] It is SCSI, and old Yamaha 4416 on an Adaptec AHA-2940 with auto-termination set. Not sure about the LUN settings, but they're fine AFIAK since Windows ME (yeuch), Windows 98, Windows 2000 and Debian have all been fine on the machine. The only real changes are the case and a new HD (as I've nicked the old ones for another machine). I'll check though because I did wonder about the SCSI setup with termination etc.. -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From paul at aptanet.com Sun Jun 1 13:45:02 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Sun Jun 1 13:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <20030531231334.GD1284@cablaptop> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> <20030531231334.GD1284@cablaptop> Message-ID: <20030601124239.GF17315@aptanet.com> ** Craig [2003-06-01 10:59]: > On Sat, May 31, 2003 at 11:44:12PM +0100, Paul Tansom wrote: > > > OK, not a good title for a Linux list, but I couldn't resist commenting > > on my first attempt at installing Windows XP (Professional) given that > > people often say Linux is hard to install. > > Blah. Everything is difficult to install ;) Agreed, Windows has the advantage in perception terms because so few people actually have to install it! > > Next comes the networking side of things: > > > > IE - fine, can browse the Internet and is pretty fast, can also browse > > my local Intranet > > Explorer - cannot see any other machines on the network, when it should > > be able to see two other Windows 2000 boxes > > Of course, IE browse the Internet real quick. Though opera wins miles > ahead. I read a paper about how IE was being able to render sites > quickly... very interesting. > > Though, IE is considered 'old' nowadays... Well I was actually comparing to IE on my Windows 2000 boxes - only two and one is a dual boot laptop, it's not something I like to make too much of a habit of ;-) Opera is fast by virtue of some heavy caching - often too much IMHO, but I still make major use of it. Not looked at anything on how IE does it so quickly - got any links? > > >From the other Windows 2000 boxes the machine shows up in Network > > Neighbourhood, but when I try to see what is shared I get an error > > saying the machine is not accessible. > > > > Conclusion - Windows XP does not integrate easily into an existing > > Windows network! > > Typical of Windows to do that. I remember telling Windows 95/98 to > pick up the local network neighbourhood at our monthly LAN nights. > Normally the problems are located right down to the LAN card, wrong IP > set up etc. Oh the hassles..... IP is not an issue here as I'm using DHCP. The one I do find a pain is the nightmare of the browse-master elections every time a new machine joins or leaves the network - nasty. > One thing, Microsoft really did good at.. office, money and er... > that's it ;) I have to disagree here, I really detest Office as I spend too much time fighting it to get things laid out the way I want them. Wordperfect always used to be my favourite, and I used to make a lot of use of Amipro/Wordpro as that was the default package at work for about 10 years, although I did start to make inroads on getting StarOffice as the replacement just before I left - mainly because Smartsuite 3.1 for Windows 3.1 was pretty ancient by 2000 and Office was too expensive, but nobody wanted to invest in the new Smartsuite package, so the free nature of StarOffice (at the time) won the day, coupled with implementing the Calendar server (looking forward to the OpenOffice replacement for that BTW). ** end quote [Craig] -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jun 1 21:45:02 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sun Jun 1 21:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Wine References: <20030529102948.DKFI9945.wmpmta01-app.mail-store.com@wmpmtavirtual> Message-ID: <022a01c3287e$9cc14cd0$0100a8c0@meep> > This is funny, I tried to get Wine working last night as I want to run KazaaLite. I dont have much time in the evenings and all I got to work was progman! Need to do some reading. > Did you ever find a P2P app to run under *nux? I stumbled across this just now from a link on the kazaa-lite web site http://appdb.winehq.com/appview.php?appId=747 From neill at entora.co.uk Mon Jun 2 06:01:01 2003 From: neill at entora.co.uk (Neill Newman) Date: Mon Jun 2 06:01:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Weekly IRC reminder Message-ID: This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!) From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Mon Jun 2 08:44:01 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Mon Jun 2 08:44:01 2003 Subject: Fwd: Re: List-* headers, was [Alug]GNU/Linux Partition Utilities In-Reply-To: <200305312205.18273.ian@redtommo.com> (Ian Bell's message of "Sat, 31 May 2003 21:32:01 GMT") References: <200305300808.46830.ian@redtommo.com> <200305302005.26089.ian@redtommo.com> <841xyftig0.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> <841xyftig0.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> <200305312205.18273.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <84wug4sz4q.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Ian Bell writes: > OK. I assume lists check the From: field for a valid email address i.e one > that is subscribed to the list. Depends on the list, but doing so makes it *more* likely that someone will want to set a different Reply-To field from there From field (since you might want to subscribe with a different address to one ordinary email is sent to). > So set From: to From. Set to: to recipient and Reply-to: to list and > discard the senders Reply-to field. If the sender needs to set a Reply-To for some reason, this policy makes it impossible for anyone to ever reply to them correctly. So that's no good. -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Mon Jun 2 09:19:02 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Mon Jun 2 09:19:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <20030601090418.GA17315@aptanet.com> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> <01b301c327cc$521fc010$0100a8c0@meep> <20030601090418.GA17315@aptanet.com> Message-ID: <200306020917.52852.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Sunday 01 June 2003 09:04, Paul Tansom wrote: > I also don't have any icons on the desktop apart > from a trash can - it doesn't affect my usage, but is a little > concerning since I'm sure there should be some! Just the Trash can is perfectly normal for XP. There was a paragim shift in the user interface with XP whereby MS want you to launch everything from the start menu. You can put icons on the desktop (actually right clicking on the properties of some things in the start menu will give you the option of "Show on Desktop") But often XP will prompt to ask you if it can clean up the desktop and delete unused icons. Actually this is the way I work on most of my machines. There is nothing I hate more than a desktop cluttered with icons. As to Windows users who use the Desktop as a home directory.....ahhhhhhgggghhhhh. From John.Airey at rnib.org.uk Mon Jun 2 09:59:01 2003 From: John.Airey at rnib.org.uk (John.Airey at rnib.org.uk) Date: Mon Jun 2 09:59:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]RE: [Peterboro] GPL, freedom and bread Message-ID: <9B66BBD37D5DD411B8CE00508B69700F033F2AC2@pborolocal.rnib.org.uk> You make some interesting points and I'd like to try and address some of them. Suppose your baker discovers that the flour he uses to make his bread comes from a genetically modified strain of wheat and only produces one harvest (this is actually the kind of "technology" that organisations like Monsanto are trying to sneak in). The cost of his bread has shot up as wheat has become more expensive, and because of patent restrictions he can only get his flour from one supplier. This is not unlike the situation with software. Ideally software should be "free" (free beer), but open source (free speech) is obviously a compromise. There is money to be made in both models from software support (and in the latter case from selling the packaged software). But there is an open market, just as there is in buying and selling wheat. Ultimately software is only a series of ones and zeroes (if only I'd patented it...) and these days is very very ubiquitous. You don't have to be in IT for very long to realise that the biggest software issue is support. I have the source code to some programs that I'm legally not allowed to change (it's written in Turbo Pascal, so I might not want to anyway). So the code has been abandoned, and this is happening all the time. I'd recommend writing the code for free (as is done with most Linux software) and making money from hardware or software support. Strangely enough, even Microsoft is leaning this way. - John Airey, BSc (Jt Hons), CNA, RHCE Internet systems support officer, ITCSD, Royal National Institute of the Blind, Bakewell Road, Peterborough PE2 6XU, Tel.: +44 (0) 1733 375299 Fax: +44 (0) 1733 370848 John.Airey at rnib.org.uk What is "real"? How do you define "real"? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then "real" is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain... (Morpheus, The Matrix, 1999) - NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that you must not use, disclose, distribute, copy, print or rely on this email's content. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and then delete the email and any attachments from your system. RNIB has made strenuous efforts to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its staff are free from viruses. However, it cannot accept any responsibility for any viruses which are transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments. Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RNIB. RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227 Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Mon Jun 2 10:39:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Mon Jun 2 10:39:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moz Firebird In-Reply-To: <200305302007.19249.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <000101c328eb$30c6b3e0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Wayne Stallwood > > Ok this is really bugging me now. > > Ever since I first tried Phoenix it has insisted on going to > http://www.barnesandnoble.com/ whenever I start it up. > > If I then press the "home" button it takes me to my homepage of choice. > If I watch the status bar at the bottom on start-up I can see it going to > Google (my preferred homepage) and then suddenly changing it's mind and going > over to Barnes. > > I have recently re-installed Phoenix (to upgrade to Moz) by nuking the whole > installation dir. I have grep'ed both my moz profile (in home) and the chrome > dir. On at least a few occasions I have deleted my profile > and created a new one. > > No-one else seems to be able to replicate this on their > system. and I have only one machine (my main one) that does it. > > It is now really tainting my experience of what is a lovely, lovely browser. I > am sure it is not a problem with Moz itself, otherwise others would be > reporting it as a bug, but apart from the profile what could it be ? > A couple of thoughts that might be relevant; Is it something built into the Phoenix package you're installing from? (source tarball, rpm, deb, etc). It might go away if you got another copy from a different location or used a different install strategy. Have you tried using a different homepage than Google? About a year ago Google decided that my PC at work was a WAP device for a couple of days, so your problem might be Google rather than your system. Have you tried disabling Java and/or JavaScript in case there's a rogue script kicking off somewhere? Regards, Keith From paul at aptanet.com Mon Jun 2 10:59:02 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Mon Jun 2 10:59:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]XP install In-Reply-To: <200306020917.52852.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> References: <20030531224412.GD15601@aptanet.com> <01b301c327cc$521fc010$0100a8c0@meep> <20030601090418.GA17315@aptanet.com> <200306020917.52852.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20030602095642.GB19906@aptanet.com> ** Wayne Stallwood [2003-06-02 09:17]: > On Sunday 01 June 2003 09:04, Paul Tansom wrote: > > I also don't have any icons on the desktop apart > > from a trash can - it doesn't affect my usage, but is a little > > concerning since I'm sure there should be some! > > Just the Trash can is perfectly normal for XP. There was a paragim shift in > the user interface with XP whereby MS want you to launch everything from the > start menu. You can put icons on the desktop (actually right clicking on the > properties of some things in the start menu will give you the option of "Show > on Desktop") But often XP will prompt to ask you if it can clean up the > desktop and delete unused icons. Interesting, every XP machine I've worked on so far (ooh, all of two, so not a significant number!) has had the standard icons on the desktop so I'd not twigged that there had been a change. > Actually this is the way I work on most of my machines. There is nothing I > hate more than a desktop cluttered with icons. Ditto, although on my Windows boxes I do leave the odd one - not worked out why yet as I rarely use them because they're always behind a window of some sort. On Linux I use Enlightenment and there's nothing on the desktop bar the pagers and a small button bar (for starting mail and a shell). When I'm in Windows I really miss the ease of just clicking the desktop and choosing my application - and now XP added another level to go through on the Start menu to get to the one I want! > As to Windows users who use the Desktop as a home > directory.....ahhhhhhgggghhhhh. Don't get me started on that one! So with my install I've cracked the networking with a post install reconfigure. The desktop issue isn't an install failure, which is good. So that leaves the drives to sort out - I suspect they'll come down to a single issue somewhere, but getting a removable drive as C and the install as M is intriguing given the fact that Windows has always had to put at least something on the C drive (which doesn't have a disk in!). ** end quote [Wayne Stallwood] -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Mon Jun 2 11:35:02 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Mon Jun 2 11:35:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]GPL, freedom and bread In-Reply-To: <014f01c3275c$68ed4300$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <000201c328f3$13ae4d60$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Ben Francis > > Hi again slef > > > Ben Francis wrote: [...] > > > However, the harsh reality is that programmers need money to put bread on > > > the table and apparently some geeks even have families to support! Just say > > > someone were to program full time and released all of their code under the > > > GPL, where does their bread actually come from? [...] > > Actually my entire email could have been reduced to that snip, I apologise > for waffling ;) > Good post Ben. As someone who has been making a living writing software since 1973 I too have been pondering this question recently and much for the same reasons as yourself. It seems to me that if OSS becomes the principal software development mechanism (as I have a feeling it might) then writing software as a method of earning a living will become much less common than it has been over the past 25 years. However, if I look back on the past 10 or so years of my career I have actually cut very little primary source code except for my own satisfaction. Mostly I been asked to perform value added tasks like enhancement, customisation, support, installation, analysis, design, etc. So I suspect that's where IT professionals will be earning their keep in future. They will be employed not for their skills in cutting code but for their knowledge of using the technology to solve problems. > > > Your questions might be restated as "how does anyone make money in a free > > marketplace?" and there are lots of books on that. > > Could anyone suggest a good book on this subject? > The Cathedral & The Baazar ? > > After all this time of being told that computing is a science, or an engineering > > discipline, it's closer to being something like performance mathematics, with all the > > questions of how to make money from performing an art. > > Indeed, I'm not a programmer, but a code poet ;) > Personally I think Mark's bang on target here, I have doubted whether the terms computer science or software engineering are valid for some time now. From my experience writing software seems to have more in common with craft based skills such as carpentry, bricklaying, blacksmithing, etc. than chemistry, physics or civil engineering. Code poet, I like that, but it probably makes what we do sound a bit more upmarket that it really is. Anyone know what the correct term is for the people that demonstrate products in supermarkets? :o) Keith From W.B.Hill at uea.ac.uk Mon Jun 2 12:39:02 2003 From: W.B.Hill at uea.ac.uk (wbh) Date: Mon Jun 2 12:39:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]GPL, freedom and bread In-Reply-To: <000201c328f3$13ae4d60$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Keith Watson wrote: > more upmarket that it really is. Anyone know what the correct term is > for the people that demonstrate products in supermarkets? :o) Art-history graduates ;-) From gt at pobox.com Mon Jun 2 12:58:02 2003 From: gt at pobox.com (Graham Trott) Date: Mon Jun 2 12:58:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]GPL, freedom and bread References: <000201c328f3$13ae4d60$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: <02ba01c328fa$53b6f4a0$0a01a8c0@graham> > > > > Could anyone suggest a good book on this subject? > > > > The Cathedral & The Baazar ? > > > > After all this time of being told that computing is a science, or an engineering > > > discipline, it's closer to being something like performance mathematics, with all the > > > questions of how to make money from performing an art. > > > > Indeed, I'm not a programmer, but a code poet ;) > > On poetry and other ways of describing or classifying programming (and for a damn good read), try The Programmers Stone, at http://www.melloworld.com/Reciprocality/r0/index.html -- GT From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 2 20:22:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk) Date: Mon Jun 2 20:22:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Fwd: [Debian-uk] Software patents pubmeet in Cambridge Message-ID: <20030602192245.2E4135BD84@bouncing.localnet> I think I'll be there... From: Wookey Subject: [Debian-uk] Software patents pubmeet in Cambridge Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:16:21 +0100 (BST) A few of us in Cambridge are trying to increase public/geek/programmer awareness of EU software Patent legislation which is pending, and things are currently balanced between very bad, and quite reasonable, legislation. The issues are complicated. Any of you who are local and would like to be better informed, especially in order to make intelligent points to your representatives, would benefit from coming along. Here's the blurb: ----- Hi there, Join other software developers and Intellectual Property practioners at a pubmeet to in Cambridge discuss the proposals. As you may know, the EU is working on a directive covering software patenting. The next vote is scheduled for the 16th or 17th of June in the JURI subcommittee, which deals with legal affairs and the internal market. The final vote on the proposed directive by the European Parliament is currently scheduled for the end of June. The outcome of the process could affect individual software developers as well as small and larger companies but there isn't general awareness about the issues. Meet at the Free Press, Prospect Row, 8pm Thursday 5th June. The Free Press is a non-smoking pub. Look for a notice saying Patents or ask at the bar. Admission free. Let me, Jeff Veit, know that you are coming - email patents at tanasity.com because if the numbers are too large we will switch venue. Final notification by email on the afternoon of the 5th. Your email details won't be shared with anyone. Check http://www.tangledtime.com/patents.htm for latest news on the meeting. If you aren't interested or are interested but are unable to attend but a colleague or friend might be interested please let them know - this meeting has been organised quickly and hasn't been widely publicised and I am only sending one mail to each company/group that I think may be interested. Best wishes, Jeff Veit Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/ _______________________________________________ Debian-uk maillist - Debian-uk at chiark.greenend.org.uk http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/debian-uk From hoon at celticmusic.com Tue Jun 3 10:03:01 2003 From: hoon at celticmusic.com (Dan Beimborn) Date: Tue Jun 3 10:03:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks Message-ID: <3EDC6441.4050500@celticmusic.com> Hello folks, I'm new to the area here (as I may have inadverently announced twice!), and I'm sitting on the end of a modem (you'd think I'd use a chair..). Anyway, I'm used to schlurping down godawfully huge ISO images over my lunch hour, so not sure exactly how one acquires sets of redhat, mandrake, and Gentoo in modem land. Could anyone either recommend a source that burns them for a nominal fee, or someone who'd burn them for me in the area? I'd be most appreciative, I might even have a spare penguin plushie I could trade :) DB From hoon at celticmusic.com Tue Jun 3 10:07:02 2003 From: hoon at celticmusic.com (Dan Beimborn) Date: Tue Jun 3 10:07:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]DVD Burning & Bootable DVDs Message-ID: <3EDC6525.6090605@celticmusic.com> It's been about 6 months since I last tried DVD burning under linux, and there was a way to do it with a Pioneer DVD-R that I had using non-gpl software that had short built-in expiration dates. Has anyone here had any luck with it? I did some hunting and haven't turned up any new GPL ways to do it yet & I'm hoping someone has since written free tools to do this with. The next step I'm looking into is to make a bootable DVD, which I assume would follow the same steps as a bootable CD with the el torito image etc. Has anyone here had luck making bootable CDs that could help beyond what the howtos out there say to do? DB From craig at wizball.co.uk Tue Jun 3 10:09:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Tue Jun 3 10:09:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks In-Reply-To: <3EDC6441.4050500@celticmusic.com> References: <3EDC6441.4050500@celticmusic.com> Message-ID: <20030603091447.GA3523@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 10:02:57AM +0100, Dan Beimborn wrote: > I'm new to the area here (as I may have inadverently announced twice!), > and I'm sitting on the end of a modem (you'd think I'd use a chair..). Gah.. where are you again? Can't you get ADSL? ;) > Anyway, I'm used to schlurping down godawfully huge ISO images over my > lunch hour, so not sure exactly how one acquires sets of redhat, > mandrake, and Gentoo in modem land. Could anyone either recommend a > source that burns them for a nominal fee, or someone who'd burn them for > me in the area? *Cough* and updates is fun ;) > I'd be most appreciative, I might even have a spare penguin plushie I > could trade :) Oooo plushie! -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com Tue Jun 3 11:28:02 2003 From: jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com (Jonathan Dye) Date: Tue Jun 3 11:28:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks Message-ID: Dan Beimborn wrote: > Hello folks, > > I'm new to the area here (as I may have inadverently > announced twice!), > and I'm sitting on the end of a modem (you'd think I'd use a chair..). > > Anyway, I'm used to schlurping down godawfully huge ISO > images over my > lunch hour, so not sure exactly how one acquires sets of redhat, > mandrake, and Gentoo in modem land. Could anyone either recommend a > source that burns them for a nominal fee, or someone who'd > burn them for > me in the area? www.linuxemporium.co.uk have several distribtions (both download and retail versions) as well of lots of other stuff and they'll mail them to you. I'm not sure how nominal the fee is though. JD _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service From jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com Tue Jun 3 11:48:01 2003 From: jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com (Jonathan Dye) Date: Tue Jun 3 11:48:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks Message-ID: Martyn Drake wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:27:35 +0100 Jonathan Dye wrote: > > > www.linuxemporium.co.uk have several distribtions (both download and > > retail versions) as well of lots of other stuff and they'll > mail them > > to you. I'm not sure how nominal the fee is though. > > It should be noted that they won't sell the downloadable copies of Red > Hat, but everything else can be picked up there for reasonable cost. Yes they do. Thay have had to remove a couple of rpms (all pictures I think) and call it something else (I think they've called it Pink Tie) because of copyright issues. JD _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service From S.Jude at uea.ac.uk Tue Jun 3 11:52:01 2003 From: S.Jude at uea.ac.uk (Simon Jude) Date: Tue Jun 3 11:52:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training Message-ID: Hi, Does anybody know of any good animation software for linux which can take a sequence of images and create animations from them? I have used Quicktime in the past but as I'm hoping to get my hands on an old PC in our lab to run linux on in the near future I was wondering whether there was an alternative! Also, slightly off topic, we are about to buy a number of software packages that come with APIs and SDKs so that we can customise them if we wish (and require a training course in Arizona!). Can anybody suggest any good books or training courses for learning C/C++? Thanks Simon From jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com Tue Jun 3 11:54:02 2003 From: jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com (Jonathan Dye) Date: Tue Jun 3 11:54:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training Message-ID: Simon Jude wrote: > Also, slightly off topic, we are about to buy a number of software > packages that come with APIs and SDKs so that we can > customise them if we > wish (and require a training course in Arizona!). Can > anybody suggest any > good books or training courses for learning C/C++? Have a look at the book reviews at www.accu.org. JD _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service From S.Jude at uea.ac.uk Tue Jun 3 11:59:01 2003 From: S.Jude at uea.ac.uk (Simon Jude) Date: Tue Jun 3 11:59:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Jonathan Dye wrote: > Simon Jude wrote: > > Also, slightly off topic, we are about to buy a number of software > > packages that come with APIs and SDKs so that we can > > customise them if we > > wish (and require a training course in Arizona!). Can > > anybody suggest any > > good books or training courses for learning C/C++? > > Have a look at the book reviews at www.accu.org. > Smashing thanks for that. From ddw at bas.ac.uk Tue Jun 3 12:30:02 2003 From: ddw at bas.ac.uk (Douglas Willis) Date: Tue Jun 3 12:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1054639735.13250.8.camel@ddw.nerc-bas.ac.uk> On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 11:51, Simon Jude wrote: > Hi, > Does anybody know of any good animation software for linux which can take > a sequence of images and create animations from them? I have used > Quicktime in the past but as I'm hoping to get my hands on an old PC in > our lab to run linux on in the near future I was wondering whether there > was an alternative! > Try the GIMP. It has basic animation and video editing capabilities. -- Douglas Willis From martyn-d at moving-picture.com Tue Jun 3 13:22:01 2003 From: martyn-d at moving-picture.com (Martyn Drake) Date: Tue Jun 3 13:22:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030603113434.5c555ea5.martyn-d@moving-picture.com> On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:27:35 +0100 Jonathan Dye wrote: > www.linuxemporium.co.uk have several distribtions (both download and > retail versions) as well of lots of other stuff and they'll mail them > to you. I'm not sure how nominal the fee is though. It should be noted that they won't sell the downloadable copies of Red Hat, but everything else can be picked up there for reasonable cost. Regards, Martyn -- Martyn Drake | Email : martyn-d at moving-picture.com Systems Administrator | Web : http://www.moving-picture.com The Moving Picture Company | Phone : +44 (0)20 7494 7853 From keith.watson at kewill.com Tue Jun 3 14:24:02 2003 From: keith.watson at kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Tue Jun 3 14:24:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]how to mount a removable SCSI disk? Message-ID: Yes, OK, I know the answer is "very carefully" :o) By a fortuitous chain of events I have become the owner of a Castlewood ORB2 2.2Gb removable SCSI drive (plus a couple of removable disks to go with it). Which is nice because now I've got something to hang of that old SCSI adapter card I had lying around (Diamond Multimedia Fireport40). I've tried it out with Windows 2K and it works a treat (media is currently formatted as FAT2). GNU/Linux (Debian) picks up the SCSI card and the device OK (i.e. everything shows up in /proc/scsi as it should) with the adapter being scsi0 and the drive is on LUN 5. I've installed the scsitools package and run scsidev. And now I'm stuck, I presume I need to mount the drive with something like; mount -t vfat /dev/??? /mnt/orb2 but what device name should use (or how do I find out)? Regards, Keith ____________ Say nothing and saw wood. Vermont Saying From keith.watson at kewill.com Tue Jun 3 14:35:02 2003 From: keith.watson at kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Tue Jun 3 14:35:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]how to mount a removable SCSI disk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Keith Watson > > GNU/Linux (Debian) picks up the SCSI card and the device OK (i.e. everything shows up in > /proc/scsi > as it should) with the adapter being scsi0 and the drive is on LUN 5. > Here I go, answering my own posts now! (only way to get sensible answers? :o) ) spot the deliberate mistake I meant ID 5, LUN 0, i.e. scsi0, channel 0, id 5, lun 0 Keith ____________ Sushi! - its not fresh, its raw. From keith.watson at kewill.com Tue Jun 3 14:40:02 2003 From: keith.watson at kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Tue Jun 3 14:40:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]how to mount a removable SCSI disk? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Keith Watson > > From: Keith Watson > > > > GNU/Linux (Debian) picks up the SCSI card and the device OK (i.e. everything shows up in > > /proc/scsi as it should) with the adapter being scsi0 and the drive is on LUN 5. > > > > Here I go, answering my own posts now! (only way to get sensible answers? :o) ) > > spot the deliberate mistake I meant ID 5, LUN 0, i.e. scsi0, channel 0, id 5, lun 0 > Subsidiary question: (NB marks will only be awarded is the main question is also answered) I have 2 IDE disks attached - hda & hdb, so should the SCSI drive show up as sda or sdc? Keith ____________ A ship in the harbour is safe... but that's not what ships were made for. From ddw at bas.ac.uk Tue Jun 3 15:11:01 2003 From: ddw at bas.ac.uk (Douglas Willis) Date: Tue Jun 3 15:11:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]how to mount a removable SCSI disk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1054649407.13250.17.camel@ddw.nerc-bas.ac.uk> On Tue, 2003-06-03 at 14:43, Keith Watson wrote: > > From: Keith Watson > > > From: Keith Watson > > > > > > GNU/Linux (Debian) picks up the SCSI card and the device OK (i.e. everything shows up in > > > /proc/scsi as it should) with the adapter being scsi0 and the drive is on LUN 5. > > > > > > > Here I go, answering my own posts now! (only way to get sensible answers? :o) ) > > > > spot the deliberate mistake I meant ID 5, LUN 0, i.e. scsi0, channel 0, id 5, lun 0 > > > > Subsidiary question: (NB marks will only be awarded is the main question is also answered) > > I have 2 IDE disks attached - hda & hdb, so should the SCSI drive show up as sda or sdc? > Making the big leap and assuming all modules have loaded correctly you should be able to mount /dev/sda0 and all will work. Naming is similar to ide. sd -> scsi disk a -> first disk detected on chain 0 -> partition 0 You can check what scsi devices have been seen by looking in /proc/scsi/ cat the scsi file and you should see all devices that are on the scsi sub system listed. An example from my system. Attached devices: Host: scsi0 Channel: 00 Id: 06 Lun: 00 Vendor: YAMAHA Model: CRW4260 Rev: 1.0f Type: CD-ROM ANSI SCSI revision: 02 -- Douglas Willis From jamie.french at talk21.com Tue Jun 3 20:14:01 2003 From: jamie.french at talk21.com (Jamie French) Date: Tue Jun 3 20:14:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Wine In-Reply-To: <20030529114611.40babd03.lists@pelvoux.nildram.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Guys, Thanks for all your replies on and offline line. Once I get some time to play with Linux and P2P file sharing I'll let u know the results. Take Care, Jamie From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 3 23:07:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Tue Jun 3 23:07:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks References: Message-ID: Jonathan Dye wrote: > think) and call it something else (I think they've called it Pink Tie) > because of copyright issues. I thought that was because of trademark law being used to deny the Red Hat name to others, not copyright? From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 3 23:08:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Tue Jun 3 23:08:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training References: <1054639735.13250.8.camel@ddw.nerc-bas.ac.uk> Message-ID: Douglas Willis wrote: > Try the GIMP. It has basic animation and video editing capabilities. I think there is also a video-specific tool that was called Film GIMP but was recently renamed (and I can't remember the new name). -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From martyn at drake.org.uk Wed Jun 4 06:30:03 2003 From: martyn at drake.org.uk (Martyn Drake) Date: Wed Jun 4 06:30:03 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c32a5a$3079d5a0$ba184c51@martynxp> Mark Ray wrote on 03 June 2003 23:09: > I think there is also a video-specific tool that was called Film GIMP > but was recently renamed (and I can't remember the new name). CinePaint? I'm trying to persuade the texture artists at work to try and move over to it rather than use Photoshop under Windows - we're seeing more Windows boxen creep in because of ruddy Photoshop. I did try the Codeweaver's Crossover Office plug-in which can run Photoshop just fine under Linux, but getting at data stored across NFS is a nightmare under Wine :( Regards, Martyn -- http://www.drake.org.uk http://www.drake-hosting.info From jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com Wed Jun 4 08:20:02 2003 From: jonathan.dye at automationpartnership.com (Jonathan Dye) Date: Wed Jun 4 08:20:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks Message-ID: MJ Ray wrote: > Jonathan Dye wrote: >> think) and call it something else (I think they've called it Pink >> Tie) because of copyright issues. > > I thought that was because of trademark law being used to deny the Red > Hat name to others, not copyright? That is probably correct, I should have checked the correct terminology/reason before just automatically typing 'copyright'. JD _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 4 08:28:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Jun 4 08:28:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]GPL, freedom and bread References: <012701c326f5$b331e360$0100a8c0@meep> <014f01c3275c$68ed4300$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: Ben Francis wrote: > Actually my entire email could have been reduced to that snip, I apologise > for waffling ;) Nah, you had other good points in there, but I thought that snip was a good summary. >> Nothing even compels you to release all GPL'd code for free to everyone >> every time at the same time, even though some people seem to think that. > So what are you saying? That you don't have to release your code straight > away, but can hang onto it for a bit? I'm not sure I follow... could you > expand on this a little? Give an example? Well, normally things are worth whatever someone will pay for it, and people are often not willing to pay for free downloads, as you note. So one possibility is not to make it a free download yourself, but any customer who wanted to still could. >> Your questions might be restated as "how does anyone make money in a free >> marketplace?" and there are lots of books on that. > Could anyone suggest a good book on this subject? No, I get flamed when I try... ;-) There are quite a few suggestions around online from better reviewers than me... -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From hoon at celticmusic.com Wed Jun 4 09:19:01 2003 From: hoon at celticmusic.com (Dan Beimborn) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:19:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks Message-ID: <3EDDAB5E.80501@celticmusic.com> Thanks so much for the huge response to my query. I've been well looked after by Graham, but thanks to everyone who responded. Very nice group of people you have here! The hitch I seem to run into is that Gentoo is a small kick-off disk followed by downloading source off the net. Does anyone have a trick to do that with a local mirror to make it bearable for a modem guy to set it up? I've got a couple machines, some crossover cables, and plan to install it to a VMWare image on a windows box to start with (the missus gets the faster CPU for her photoshop!). DB From alien at essex.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 09:47:01 2003 From: alien at essex.ac.uk (Adrian Clark) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:47:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <001101c32a5a$3079d5a0$ba184c51@martynxp> References: <001101c32a5a$3079d5a0$ba184c51@martynxp> Message-ID: <16093.45551.253058.166458@choo01.local.> Martyn Drake writes: > CinePaint? I'm trying to persuade the texture artists at work to try and > move over to it rather than use Photoshop under Windows - we're seeing more > Windows boxen creep in because of ruddy Photoshop. You could take a look at the Mac under MacOS X. Not Linux but a rock solid Unix with: most of the bsd features fink, a Debian-like package system for lots of common freeware, including filmgimp a reasonable X11 port, soon to be integrated into XFree86 as well as the traditional Mac tools and native M$ utilities. :-( I've been using a 12" powerbook for about two months now and have been impressed by the build quality, range of familiar software, and impressive battery life: for the first time ever, I really can get 3.5 hours on the road without having to scramble around for a mains socket. Sorry if people think this is off-topic, but if you take Linux to mean "free unix and gnu utilities" than this email at least half-qualifies. ;-) ..Adrian -- Dr Adrian F Clark WEB: http://esewww.essex.ac.uk/~alien/ EMAIL: alien at essex.ac.uk TEL: +44 1206 872432 FAX: +44 1206 872900 PAPER: VASE Lab, Dept ESE, University of Essex, Colchester, CO4 3SQ, UK From S.Jude at uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 09:48:02 2003 From: S.Jude at uea.ac.uk (Simon Jude) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:48:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <001101c32a5a$3079d5a0$ba184c51@martynxp> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Martyn Drake wrote: > Mark Ray wrote on 03 June 2003 23:09: > > > I think there is also a video-specific tool that was called Film GIMP > > but was recently renamed (and I can't remember the new name). > > CinePaint? I'm trying to persuade the texture artists at work to try and > move over to it rather than use Photoshop under Windows - we're seeing more > Windows boxen creep in because of ruddy Photoshop. I did try the > Codeweaver's Crossover Office plug-in which can run Photoshop just fine > under Linux, but getting at data stored across NFS is a nightmare under Wine > :( I shall have a look into these. I have used QuickTime in the past but if something else can do the job for free then I'll use it. We also have Photoshop but it is not on my PC so if I am able to get hold of a PC to run linux then I won't have to keep using different machines on opposite sides of the lab if it running something like GIMP or CinePaint!! Thanks Simon From laurie at brownowl.com Wed Jun 4 09:50:02 2003 From: laurie at brownowl.com (Laurie Brown) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:50:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <001101c32a5a$3079d5a0$ba184c51@martynxp> References: <001101c32a5a$3079d5a0$ba184c51@martynxp> Message-ID: <3EDDB2FC.2060000@brownowl.com> Martyn Drake wrote: > Mark Ray wrote on 03 June 2003 23:09: [SNIP] > under Linux, but getting at data stored across NFS is a nightmare under Wine Try Samba. AFAIK, it can coexist with NFS. Cheers, Laurie. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurie Brown laurie at brownowl.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at drakken.com Wed Jun 4 09:51:02 2003 From: adam at drakken.com (Adam Bower) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:51:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training Message-ID: <13934EE147CED611BFC70000C0C94AF9106915@LOREENA> > Martyn Drake writes: > > > CinePaint? I'm trying to persuade the texture artists at > work to try and > > move over to it rather than use Photoshop under Windows - > we're seeing more > > Windows boxen creep in because of ruddy Photoshop. > > You could take a look at the Mac under MacOS X. Not Linux but a rock > solid Unix with: Oh don't worry, people working in the effects industry are already looking at Mac OS X, (not necessarily through choice) most of the high end effects software is in some way owned by apple.... From laurie at brownowl.com Wed Jun 4 09:51:13 2003 From: laurie at brownowl.com (Laurie Brown) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:51:13 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Redhat, Mandrake, and Gentoo Disks In-Reply-To: <3EDDAB5E.80501@celticmusic.com> References: <3EDDAB5E.80501@celticmusic.com> Message-ID: <3EDDB34F.4060608@brownowl.com> Dan Beimborn wrote: > Thanks so much for the huge response to my query. I've been well looked > after by Graham, but thanks to everyone who responded. Very nice group > of people you have here! > > The hitch I seem to run into is that Gentoo is a small kick-off disk > followed by downloading source off the net. Does anyone have a trick to > do that with a local mirror to make it bearable for a modem guy to set > it up? I've got a couple machines, some crossover cables, and plan to > install it to a VMWare image on a windows box to start with (the missus > gets the faster CPU for her photoshop!). I run a (private) local mirror here (I have a 2meg pipe) but unless you're in Ipswich, it won't help much! For your purposes, I suggest you use a stage3 build CD. Cheers, Laurie. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurie Brown laurie at brownowl.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 4 09:52:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:52:02 2003 Subject: Laptops, was RE: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <16093.45551.253058.166458@choo01.local.> Message-ID: <6362f42918710628cbad891120e80feb@bouncing.localnet> On 2003-06-04 09:46:39 +0100 Adrian Clark wrote: > impressive battery life: for the first time ever, I really can get 3.5 > hours on the road without having to scramble around for a mains > socket. That reminds me. I thought someone posted a laptop-tweaking howto a few months ago, but I can't find it in the archives. Can anyone suggest a URL, please? I want more battery life. TIA -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From craig at wizball.co.uk Wed Jun 4 09:56:03 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Wed Jun 4 09:56:03 2003 Subject: Laptops, was RE: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <6362f42918710628cbad891120e80feb@bouncing.localnet> References: <16093.45551.253058.166458@choo01.local.> <6362f42918710628cbad891120e80feb@bouncing.localnet> Message-ID: <20030604090216.GA3321@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 09:52:05PM -1100, MJ Ray wrote: > That reminds me. I thought someone posted a laptop-tweaking howto a > few months ago, but I can't find it in the archives. Can anyone > suggest a URL, please? I want more battery life. Same here.. I'm using autospeedstep but more tweaking to get more battery life is always needed ;))) (In this case, go and buy an apple powerbook.. hmmmmmmmmm!!!) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Wed Jun 4 10:08:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Wed Jun 4 10:08:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]how to mount a removable SCSI disk? In-Reply-To: <1054649407.13250.17.camel@ddw.nerc-bas.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000001c32a79$5c8b2c60$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Douglas Willis ...snip... > Making the big leap and assuming all modules have loaded correctly you > should be able to mount /dev/sda0 and all will work. Naming is similar to ide. ...snip... Ah! there you have it Douglas, 1st make sure that you have scsi disk support in the kernel (more lumps on the forehead! :o) ) However once you do it all bursts into life, run scsidev and a message pops up saying there's now a disk on sda. All of which means, as it's an exchangeable device, that I now have to seriously get to grips with automount and autofs, which I have been putting off for too long. Incidentally there's a rather neat little mini-howto on the subject by Rahul Sundaram over on Regards, Keith From martyn at drake.org.uk Wed Jun 4 10:10:02 2003 From: martyn at drake.org.uk (Martyn Drake) Date: Wed Jun 4 10:10:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <3EDDB2FC.2060000@brownowl.com> References: <001101c32a5a$3079d5a0$ba184c51@martynxp> <3EDDB2FC.2060000@brownowl.com> Message-ID: <20030604100904.6c925ed1.martyn@drake.org.uk> On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 09:51:08 +0100 Laurie Brown wrote: > Try Samba. AFAIK, it can coexist with NFS. We do use Samba to an extent on some servers, but due to the way we deal with file permisions and the number of servers and disks it can be quite nasty having to install Samba on every machine. We tend to use an NFS client under Windows, but even then running Codeweaver's Wine is still very slow at accessing those file systems. Regards, Martyn From rob at vetsystems.com Wed Jun 4 10:43:02 2003 From: rob at vetsystems.com (Robert Tillyard) Date: Wed Jun 4 10:43:02 2003 Subject: Laptops, was RE: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <20030604090216.GA3321@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 4/6/03 10:02 am, "Craig" wrote: > On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 09:52:05PM -1100, MJ Ray wrote: > >> That reminds me. I thought someone posted a laptop-tweaking howto a >> few months ago, but I can't find it in the archives. Can anyone >> suggest a URL, please? I want more battery life. > > Same here.. I'm using autospeedstep but more tweaking to get more > battery life is always needed ;))) > > (In this case, go and buy an apple powerbook.. hmmmmmmmmm!!!) Mmmmmmm, I've just bought a 17" PowerBook! I'd like to be able to run Linux in a virtual machine but the only way I've found so far is to buy Virtual PC (now owned by Microsoft) and run an Intel Redhat distribution which works but would be quicker if it could run a PowerPC distribution. Regards, Rob. From craig at wizball.co.uk Wed Jun 4 10:46:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Wed Jun 4 10:46:01 2003 Subject: Laptops, was RE: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: References: <20030604090216.GA3321@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030604095219.GB3321@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Wed, Jun 04, 2003 at 10:42:08AM +0100, Robert Tillyard wrote: > Mmmmmmm, I've just bought a 17" PowerBook! I'd like to be able to run Linux > in a virtual machine but the only way I've found so far is to buy Virtual PC > (now owned by Microsoft) and run an Intel Redhat distribution which works > but would be quicker if it could run a PowerPC distribution. I really wish I got a apple powerbook to be honest. That is probably the real holy grail of them all! I presume you are using fink on it? -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From paul at aptanet.com Wed Jun 4 13:09:01 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Wed Jun 4 13:09:01 2003 Subject: Laptops, was RE: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <6362f42918710628cbad891120e80feb@bouncing.localnet> References: <16093.45551.253058.166458@choo01.local.> <6362f42918710628cbad891120e80feb@bouncing.localnet> Message-ID: <20030604120629.GB26734@aptanet.com> ** MJ Ray [2003-06-04 09:55]: > On 2003-06-04 09:46:39 +0100 Adrian Clark wrote: > > >impressive battery life: for the first time ever, I really can get 3.5 > >hours on the road without having to scramble around for a mains > >socket. > > That reminds me. I thought someone posted a laptop-tweaking howto a > few months ago, but I can't find it in the archives. Can anyone > suggest a URL, please? I want more battery life. ** end quote [MJ Ray] I used to manage about 8 hours on my Dell Latitude C600 when I first got it. I did that with two batteries installed and a standard Debian install. Undoubtedly it helped that there was no floppy or CD installed (both bays were used by the batteries), but that was not an issue for my usage. The downside is that the batteries are now dead, after only 2 years usage. According to Dell that is good going, about 500 recharges I estimate, but Dell reckon 300 is average. I was expecting closer to 1000 based on ordinary rechargeable batteries! That doesn't work out cheap at 77ukp +P&P +VAT. -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From adam at drakken.com Wed Jun 4 13:13:02 2003 From: adam at drakken.com (Adam Bower) Date: Wed Jun 4 13:13:02 2003 Subject: Laptops, was RE: [Alug]animation software and C++ training Message-ID: <13934EE147CED611BFC70000C0C94AF9106918@LOREENA> > The downside is that the batteries are now dead, after only 2 years > usage. According to Dell that is good going, about 500 recharges I > estimate, but Dell reckon 300 is average. I was expecting > closer to 1000 > based on ordinary rechargeable batteries! That doesn't work out cheap > at 77ukp +P&P +VAT. Did you have the batteries plugged in while you ran the laptop on mains power? that tends to kill them fairly quickly. Of course that is not as bad as the original sony laptop battery on my Vaio I had, which died after about 35 charge cycles. Adam From paul at aptanet.com Wed Jun 4 13:34:02 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Wed Jun 4 13:34:02 2003 Subject: Laptops, was RE: [Alug]animation software and C++ training In-Reply-To: <13934EE147CED611BFC70000C0C94AF9106918@LOREENA> References: <13934EE147CED611BFC70000C0C94AF9106918@LOREENA> Message-ID: <20030604123151.GC26734@aptanet.com> ** Adam Bower [2003-06-04 13:11]: > > > The downside is that the batteries are now dead, after only 2 years > > usage. According to Dell that is good going, about 500 recharges I > > estimate, but Dell reckon 300 is average. I was expecting > > closer to 1000 > > based on ordinary rechargeable batteries! That doesn't work out cheap > > at 77ukp +P&P +VAT. > > Did you have the batteries plugged in while you ran the laptop on mains > power? that tends to kill them fairly quickly. Of course that is not as bad > as the original sony laptop battery on my Vaio I had, which died after about > 35 charge cycles. ** end quote [Adam Bower] I did to some extent, possibly more than I should have as I kept forgetting to unplug when I was charged. Dell seem to think that's not a problem though, but then cordless phone manufacturers claim 2 years life on their batteries and charge 4 times the price for them, when if you use them properly and discharge fully they don't suffer from memory effect. You may also be able to use ordinary rechargeable batteries if you are lucky. I've just replaced my AA ones with standard NiMH batteries for 8 quid for four instead of 10 quid for two NiCad ones (that's the official phone ones). -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From keith.watson at kewill.com Thu Jun 5 10:45:02 2003 From: keith.watson at kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Thu Jun 5 10:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Automount problem with Nautilus Message-ID: I'm running a Debian Woody (r3 stable) based system with Gnome 1.4 + Sawfish window manager + Nautilus. I use Nautilus to manage the desktop. Have just implemented autofs/automount which works great. Small problem is that when automount unmounts a cdrom (i.e. after then timeout period when I'm not accessing any files on the drive) Nautilus traps this and issues an eject command for the drive. Which is not always what I want. Anyone else come across this behaviour? Any ideas on how I could fix this or good places to look for a fix? Keith ____________ Mistakes are the portals of discovery. James Joyce From abower at thebowery.co.uk Thu Jun 5 13:42:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Thu Jun 5 13:42:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Tim O'Reilly talks and O'Reilly books Message-ID: <20030605124109.GG22631@thebowery.co.uk> Hi all, I was just speaking with Josette from O'Reilly (she is the O'Reilly UK PR manager who arranges review copies for lugs etc.) and she asked if I could forward the info on Tim O'Reilly giving talks in the UK on to the list. The other news is that she is arranging for the Alug Library to get some new/more books. I will let you know what we have when it arrives. I also am going to look at setting up some kind of review section on the website so that if you borrow books you others know what you think of them, and of course let Josette know also. Anyhow details of Tim O'Reillys talks are: Tim O'Reilly will visit the UK in June. He will be giving several talks - ****London Date: June 23rd Time: 6.30 pm for 7.00 pm Where: City University Pre-registration is mandatory see - http://www.ukuug.org/events/TimOReilly/ ****Birmingham, NEC Date: June 25th Key Note Speaker - LinuxUser & Developer Expo 2003 see - http://www.linuxuserexpo.com/ Thanks Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From c at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 5 14:44:01 2003 From: c at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 5 14:44:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Gentoo/MacOSX Announced Message-ID: <20030605123608.GB3553@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Check out gentoo.org small news on this. Looks like fink may have some competition? ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jun 5 15:25:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Thu Jun 5 15:25:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Gentoo/MacOSX Announced References: <20030605123608.GB3553@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: Craig wrote: > Check out gentoo.org small news on this. Looks like fink may have some > competition? ;) Dunno. IIRC, it's not too hard to make sure that fink doesn't put restrictively-licensed software on. Gentoo was very hard, last I tried. Did I miss a trick? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jun 5 15:26:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Thu Jun 5 15:26:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Tim O'Reilly talks and O'Reilly books References: <20030605124109.GG22631@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: Adam Bower wrote: > going to look at setting up some kind of review section on the website so that Could we interact with an existing reviews site? Is that a good/bad/mad idea? From abower at thebowery.co.uk Thu Jun 5 15:35:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Thu Jun 5 15:35:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Tim O'Reilly talks and O'Reilly books In-Reply-To: References: <20030605124109.GG22631@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030605143459.GH22631@thebowery.co.uk> On Thu, Jun 05, 2003 at 02:26:38PM -0000, MJ Ray wrote: > Adam Bower wrote: > > going to look at setting up some kind of review section on the website so that > > Could we interact with an existing reviews site? Is that a good/bad/mad > idea? I don't see why not, just there is a commitment that we have to make to review books for them and pass the reviews on to Josette. I don't think that means a 5 page review either, a few chapters would be fine. Anyhow if you know of somewhere that already exists to put reviews up then let us all know. Also the next batch of books we should be getting are: Building Embedded Linux Systems Learning Red Hat Linux Running Linux Linux Server Hacks Using Samba Free as in Freedom The Cathedral & the Bazaar When we have them we will put them into the Alug library and they will be ready for borrowing. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Thu Jun 5 19:51:02 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Thu Jun 5 19:51:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]MSNBC Article Message-ID: <200306051949.43227.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> http://www.msnbc.com/news/922215.asp?cp1=1 Just been reading this, short version is that MS are facing a bit of a Technology gap in the event that .NET, XBOX and Smartphone don't take off in the near future (and lets face it based on current adoption that is a reality) Some interesting gems from Balmer here in a supposed memo to the staff (mind you this is msnbc so who knows ? ) "Some way off in the future lies a generation of technology that Microsoft promises will change the lives of every computer user. Codenamed Longhorn, it involves a complete revamp of the company's two core product lines - the Windows operating system and Office productivity suite " Ahhh So now I see what Longhorn might be about. Office is the driving force behind the sales of Windows Desktop (and arguably server if you think about it) A lot of people don't buy Office because they bought Windows, They bought Windows because you need it to run Office So what if they did an "IE" with Office, What if Office plugged into Windows in such a way that the interoperability could not be easily rivalled by a third party Office suite application (like the link ups with the fancy new database filesystem) What if you bought the two as one package ? What if then MS claim in the following anti-trust suit that the two are so intertwined that they cannot be separated ? "Add in the weak economy, and "there is less passion and enthusiasm for technology, and greater focus on doing more for less." " The focus always was on doing more for less, you could argue that was the driving force behind computing in the first place. Why would you want to do less with more ? The only time that culture existed was during the DotCom boom when skills were at a shortage and everyone was in a high adrelanin race. Then you went for the solution that required the shortest time and the least skill to get up and running. It's funny how quickly we have forgotten the DotCom days and state that the IT trade is in some sort of depression. It's not, it has just turned back to normality after a massive peak. Was anybody really riding up that peak expecting it to just carry on forever or even to flatten out at the top ? "In that environment, companies have turned to Linux and other open-source software programs, seeing them as cheap but adequate alternatives." So MS do view Open-Source as a cheap but truly inferior product STILL. Do they feel that the only reason Open-Source projects like say Apache are anywhere in the marketplace is because they are free ? If so what happened to all of the TCO fud they were spouting last year. Answer me this ? If I approached a say large hosting provider, running lets say 100 machines serving websites for third party customers. I go to them with an Apache replacement that can do the same job and handle the same traffic on half the machines, and it is somehow more secure and requires less constant administration, yet at the same time is more scaleable. If I took them this product and said but the bad news is that unlike Apache which is free this is going to cost you ?1000 per machine. Do you not think they would do the sums and go for it ? "Around half of the 1 million corporate computers in the United States that run the Unix operating system are candidates for migration to Linux, according to Ballmer - a significant challenge to Microsoft" and it always will be. Linux is a Unix work alike, Windows is a Proprietary Operating system adhering to non uniform standards. Which one is going to be the easiest for all of those migrating Unix companies to move to ? Notwithstanding the fact that one of the things MS is always claiming in the "Linux is more expensive than MS" FUD is that it's a major cost to retrain your MS staff. Well the same is true for Unix staff to be trained for MS (actually they will just probably leave) "the company's overhaul of its software licensing terms antagonized many of its customers. " Exactly. How about also looking at upgrades, if I install Microsoft Small Business Server and then my company grows beyond the limit of clients on that product (I can't remember the limit but there is one) I have no easy upgrade path, no single upgrade I can buy and I will have to throw my investment of SBS CAL's and Server software away. and start again with several different products. "It must also get better at segmenting the markets its serves and turning out the products that different customers want." How about segmenting Servers and Workstations. Servers do not need Web Browsers, Media Players, Mail Clients or Games yet these are installed by default by every MS server platform I can think of. There are even Server platforms that have DirectX (stand up Windows 2000 Advanced Server). Wayne From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 5 22:25:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 5 22:25:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Gentoo/MacOSX Announced In-Reply-To: References: <20030605123608.GB3553@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030605213206.GA3254@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 05, 2003 at 02:25:32PM -0000, MJ Ray wrote: > Craig wrote: > > Check out gentoo.org small news on this. Looks like fink may have some > > competition? ;) > > Dunno. IIRC, it's not too hard to make sure that fink doesn't put > restrictively-licensed software on. Gentoo was very hard, last I tried. > Did I miss a trick? Dude.. gentoo isn't that hard. I think after using Debian for too long, your brain must have gotten soft in the process ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From dan.hatton at btinternet.com Thu Jun 5 23:43:01 2003 From: dan.hatton at btinternet.com (Dan Hatton) Date: Thu Jun 5 23:43:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request Message-ID: I'm trying to run the command sleepd --sleep-command "/usr/bin/apm -S" -u 900 to conserve some energy, by putting my computer in standby after 15 minute of idling. This command works fine when I type it at a tcsh or sh prompt, but now I want to run it at boot time. The Debian booting structure is guiding me to do this via a distro-provided script, /etc/rc5.d/S20sleepd (a symlink to somewhere else, IIRC.) I've appended the full text of this script below, but I think the crucial bits are #! /bin/sh DAEMON=/usr/sbin/sleepd NAME=sleepd PARAMS="" if [ -e /etc/default/sleepd ]; then . /etc/default/sleepd fi case "$1" in start) start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --pidfile /var/run/$NAME.pid \ --exec $DAEMON -- $PARAMS ;; esac exit 0 I'm supposed to set things up the way I like them by editing a line in /etc/default/sleepd that says PARAMS=something-or-other. I've tried various permutations, all of which give error messages, e.g. PARAMS=--sleep-command "apm -S" -u 900 -> /etc/rc5.d/S20sleepd: apm -S: command not found PARAMS='--sleep-command "apm -S" -u 900' -> /usr/sbin/sleepd: invalid option -- S /usr/sbin/sleepd: invalid option -- " PARAMS=--sleep-command apm -S -u 900 -> usage: apm [-VvmMsSd] [--verbose] [--minutes] [--monitor] [--suspend] [--standby] I suspect the problems result from my poor understanding of how the Bourne shell handles quotes. Any ideas, please? Here's the full script: #! /bin/sh DAEMON=/usr/sbin/sleepd NAME=sleepd DESC="APM sleep daemon" test -f $DAEMON || exit 0 set -e # Source defaults file; edit that file to configure this script. PARAMS="" if [ -e /etc/default/sleepd ]; then . /etc/default/sleepd fi case "$1" in start) # Ensure apm module is loaded. test -e /dev/apm_bios && touch /dev/apm_bios echo -n "Starting $DESC: " start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --pidfile /var/run/$NAME.pid \ --exec $DAEMON -- $PARAMS echo "$NAME." ;; stop) echo -n "Stopping $DESC: " start-stop-daemon --stop --quiet --oknodo --pidfile /var/run/$NAME.pid \ --exec $DAEMON -- $PARAMS echo "$NAME." ;; restart|force-reload) echo -n "Restarting $DESC: " start-stop-daemon --stop --quiet --oknodo --pidfile \ /var/run/$NAME.pid --exec $DAEMON -- $PARAMS sleep 1 start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --pidfile \ /var/run/$NAME.pid --exec $DAEMON -- $PARAMS echo "$NAME." ;; *) echo "Usage: /etc/init.d/$NAME {start|stop|restart|force-reload}" >&2 exit 1 ;; esac exit 0 -- Ta Dan Hatton From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 6 00:45:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 6 00:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Gentoo/MacOSX Announced References: <20030605123608.GB3553@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030605213206.GA3254@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: Craig wrote: > Dude.. gentoo isn't that hard. I think after using Debian for too long, > your brain must have gotten soft in the process ;) Tell me how to install X on gentoo from the standard package without the MS web fonts then, please. From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 6 00:49:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 6 00:49:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request References: Message-ID: Dan Hatton wrote: > PARAMS='--sleep-command "apm -S" -u 900' I suspect that PARAMS='--sleep-command apm\ -S -u 900' may do what you want, but I've not got a machine using sleepd to hand to try just now. [...] > I suspect the problems result from my poor understanding of how the > Bourne shell handles quotes. Any ideas, please? Badly, IMO, and a major reason why I use the rc shell. It has a much simpler grammar. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Fri Jun 6 10:28:01 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Fri Jun 6 10:28:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request In-Reply-To: (Dan Hatton's message of "Thu, 05 Jun 2003 22:43:52 GMT") References: Message-ID: <84u1b3y2ru.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Dan Hatton writes: > I'm trying to run the command > > sleepd --sleep-command "/usr/bin/apm -S" -u 900 > > to conserve some energy, by putting my computer in standby after 15 > minute of idling. This command works fine when I type it at a tcsh or > sh prompt, but now I want to run it at boot time. > > The Debian booting structure is guiding me to do this via a > distro-provided script, /etc/rc5.d/S20sleepd (a symlink to somewhere > else, IIRC.) I've appended the full text of this script below, but I > think the crucial bits are > > #! /bin/sh > > DAEMON=/usr/sbin/sleepd > NAME=sleepd > > PARAMS="" > if [ -e /etc/default/sleepd ]; then > . /etc/default/sleepd > fi > > case "$1" in > start) > start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --pidfile /var/run/$NAME.pid \ > --exec $DAEMON -- $PARAMS The unquoted $PARAMS is being split into separate arguments _to start-stop-daemon_ on the whitespace it contains. There's nothing you can put in the value of PARAMS that will stop this. With this approach there is no way to write arguments that contain spaces as you need. If you wrote "$PARAMS" then the internal spaces would be preserved, but you'd only be able to pass a single argument to start-stop-daemon (and thus to sleepd). Again there is nothing you can put in the value of PARAMS that will stop this. In other words you can't easily write a fully general init script using an ordinary variable to carry the parameters (though evidently it hasn't stopped people trying). You might be able to do something filthy using 'eval', but the reults would likely not be pretty. My preferred approach would be to use the positional parameters to pass parameters to the daemon, for instance something like this untested(!) example: #! /bin/sh set -e DAEMON="/usr/sbin/sleepd" NAME="sleepd" what="$1" set -- --sleep-command "/usr/bin/apm -S" -u 900 if [ -e /etc/default/sleepd ]; then . /etc/default/sleepd fi case "$what" in start ) start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --pidfile "/var/run/$NAME.pid" \ -exec "$DAEMON" -- "$@" ;; # ... etc etc etc ... esac (Note that this would change the meaning of /etc/default/sleepd too.) -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From craig at wizball.co.uk Fri Jun 6 11:45:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Fri Jun 6 11:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Gentoo/MacOSX Announced In-Reply-To: References: <20030605123608.GB3553@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030605213206.GA3254@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030606105248.GB3311@cablaptop> On Thu, Jun 05, 2003 at 11:45:16PM -0000, MJ Ray wrote: > Craig wrote: > > Dude.. gentoo isn't that hard. I think after using Debian for too long, > > your brain must have gotten soft in the process ;) > > Tell me how to install X on gentoo from the standard package without > the MS web fonts then, please. Try putting "-truetype" in USE="" in make.conf? I don't frankly understand why you want MS web fonts and frankly I think you really need it (you just cannot beat those lovely fonts? ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Fri Jun 6 11:46:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Fri Jun 6 11:46:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]POP3 Mail and Spam Questions Message-ID: <001001c32c19$4a461fa0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> I was having a tidy-up of my Debian install last night and trying to sort out some sort of spam filtering. To access mail I simply use Sylpheed as a straight dial-up POP3 client. I don't use procmail, sendmail or any sort of MTA (or at least I don't think I do :o) ). So I did a apropos search on 'mail' and came up with a long list of things that had been installed as part of the base install. Given they way I access my email can I uninstall things like procmail, sendmail, and various MTAs? or is this likely to break something else? I'm thinking of using 'mailfilter' (mainly because it can act as a POP3 client) to scan the mail headers on the ISP server and delete any spam before I download it. Given my setup, are there any alternatives I should also look at? As part of setting up mailfilter I need to set up a set of regex entries to identify possible spam. I'm reasonably happy with regex itself but if anyone has some anti-spam regexs I can crib I would be most grateful :o) What would be nice would be to use some of the DNS blacklist servers e.g. spamcop, ordb, etc., in some way, can I do this with this sort of configuration without actually downloading the headers 1st? Keith From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 6 13:00:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 6 13:00:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Gentoo/MacOSX Announced References: <20030605123608.GB3553@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030605213206.GA3254@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030606105248.GB3311@cablaptop> Message-ID: Craig wrote: > Try putting "-truetype" in USE="" in make.conf? ...but I want truetype support. Maybe I should just change it for the X install. Does it still build the support, just not install the fonts. > I don't frankly understand why you want MS web fonts and frankly I think > you really need it (you just cannot beat those lovely fonts? ;) I don't want the MS web fonts, which was what I said. And anyway, http://www.bancomicsans.20megsfree.com/ -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 6 13:02:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 6 13:02:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request References: <84u1b3y2ru.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: Richard Kettlewell wrote: > The unquoted $PARAMS is being split into separate arguments _to > start-stop-daemon_ on the whitespace it contains. There's nothing you > can put in the value of PARAMS that will stop this. With this > approach there is no way to write arguments that contain spaces as you > need. Ow. Does sh not have anything analogous to the list variable types found in csh and rc? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 6 13:06:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 6 13:06:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]POP3 Mail and Spam Questions References: <001001c32c19$4a461fa0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: Keith Watson wrote: > Given they way I access my email can I uninstall things like procmail, sendmail, and various MTAs? or is this likely to break > something else? Probably. If you remove sendmail, you may find that some local processes are broken until you install another MTA. nullmailer and ssmtp are both small ones that just forward to a remote host. > I'm thinking of using 'mailfilter' (mainly because it can act as a > POP3 client) to scan the mail headers on the ISP server and delete > any spam before I download it. Yes, I've used that in the past. I think it can use the DNS blacklists to delete spam. Remember, there is a relatively high chance of rejecting non-spam without ever knowing if you use DNS blacklisting. Also, you should whitelist mailing lists, as you will probably be removed if you send a "Hi! I just rejected your email!" message to a listserver. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Fri Jun 6 13:24:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Fri Jun 6 13:24:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]POP3 Mail and Spam Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c32c27$13c721f0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: MJ Ray > > Keith Watson wrote: > > Given they way I access my email can I uninstall things like procmail, sendmail, and > > various MTAs? or is this likely to break something else? > > Probably. If you remove sendmail, you may find that some local processes > are broken until you install another MTA. nullmailer and ssmtp are both > small ones that just forward to a remote host. > Thought that might be the case. :( > > I'm thinking of using 'mailfilter' (mainly because it can act as a > > POP3 client) to scan the mail headers on the ISP server and delete > > any spam before I download it. > > Yes, I've used that in the past. I think it can use the DNS blacklists > to delete spam. Remember, there is a relatively high chance of rejecting > non-spam without ever knowing if you use DNS blacklisting. Also, you There's nothing in the FAQ about using DNS blacklists, but I've posted to the mailfiter list to see if anyone has got it to use blacklists. > should whitelist mailing lists, as you will probably be removed if you > send a "Hi! I just rejected your email!" message to a listserver. Not problem with mailfilter as it only deletes not bounces emails. However the Sylpheed-claws site mentions a SpamAssassin plugin, so I'm going to take a look at that as well. Thanks for the feedback, Keith From Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com Fri Jun 6 13:42:02 2003 From: Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com (Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com) Date: Fri Jun 6 13:42:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix Message-ID: Hi, I know we did knoppix onlist a few weeks back, but a pal of mine discovered knoppix the other day and was very impressed. He did ask me: >I want to know what you can't do with Knoppix that I could by doing a >full install. I presume a proper install would give better performance. And of course, I don't know. I'm going to be grilled on this as he'll presume I'm some sort of linux expert, and I need to have some answers ready so I don't tumble from my pedestal :-) Thanks, Jen From abower at thebowery.co.uk Fri Jun 6 14:31:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Fri Jun 6 14:31:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]POP3 Mail and Spam Questions In-Reply-To: <001001c32c19$4a461fa0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> References: <001001c32c19$4a461fa0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: <20030606133037.GL22631@thebowery.co.uk> On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 11:49:21AM +0100, Keith Watson wrote: > So I did a apropos search on 'mail' and came up with a long list of things that had been installed as part of the base install. apropos isn't the best way to find out what is related to mail that is installed on the system. Also when you see it having a manpage for 'sendmail' it is most likely a man page for exim (the default debian smtp program) I wouldn't worry about having a few unused (or what you think are unused) packages installed, unless you are really tight on diskspace. also dpkg -l will give a better overview of which packages are installed on your system. As for anti-spam, I use currently use fetchmail to get my mail, which then passess mail onto exim for delivery which in turn looks in a procmail script which calls spamassassin. Anyhow I think you would have better success identifing spam by downloading it and feeding it through something like spamassassin with learning enabled. Of course this doesn't save you from having to download the spam in the first place but I would have thought filtering on headers would be quite difficult as many of the spams i get now have very sensible subjects lines and look very valid. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Fri Jun 6 14:36:02 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Fri Jun 6 14:36:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request In-Reply-To: (MJ Ray's message of "Fri, 06 Jun 2003 12:02:51 GMT") References: <84u1b3y2ru.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <84r867xr9t.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> MJ Ray writes: > Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> The unquoted $PARAMS is being split into separate arguments _to >> start-stop-daemon_ on the whitespace it contains. There's nothing >> you can put in the value of PARAMS that will stop this. With this >> approach there is no way to write arguments that contain spaces as >> you need. > > Ow. Does sh not have anything analogous to the list variable types > found in csh and rc? bash does (see 'arrays') but /bin/sh in general does not. -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 6 17:00:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 6 17:00:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]POP3 Mail and Spam Questions References: <001101c32c27$13c721f0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: Keith Watson wrote: > There's nothing in the FAQ about using DNS blacklists, but I've posted to the mailfiter list to see if anyone has got it to use > blacklists. My bad. I was using "disspam" for that at the time. From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 6 17:01:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 6 17:01:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix References: Message-ID: Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com wrote: >>I want to know what you can't do with Knoppix that I could by doing a >>full install. I presume a proper install would give better performance. > And of course, I don't know. Speed is the main one, and saving core settings can only be done to a floppy disk, I think. Upgrading is also rather difficult for a CD. From ian at redtommo.com Fri Jun 6 19:41:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Fri Jun 6 19:41:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306061654.37800.ian@redtommo.com> On Friday 06 Jun 2003 1:36 pm, Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com wrote: > Hi, > I know we did knoppix onlist a few weeks back, but a pal of mine discovered > > knoppix the other day and was very impressed. He did ask me: > >I want to know what you can't do with Knoppix that I could by doing a > >full install. I presume a proper install would give better performance. > > And of course, I don't know. > I'm going to be grilled on this as he'll presume I'm some sort of linux > expert, and I need to have some answers ready so I don't tumble from my > pedestal :-) > Thanks, > Jen I have tried it. Take care if installing on a system with no scsi devices. best to use the noscsi option else it may lock up (mine did). From what I could see all the basics were there including open office IIRC (as much as you can fit on one CD) but thereafter you can apt-get to you hearts content. CD install definitely runs slower than hd install. Be careful to get the latest version. Older ones had broken UK keyboard support and defaulted to the German language. Ian From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Fri Jun 6 19:44:01 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Fri Jun 6 19:44:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306061942.31342.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Friday 06 June 2003 16:01, MJ Ray wrote: > >>I want to know what you can't do with Knoppix that I could by doing a > >>full install. [snip] >Speed is the main one, and saving core settings can only be done to a >floppy disk, I think. Upgrading is also rather difficult for a CD. Erm, when I read this I assumed he meant Knoppix (installed after running the hdinstall script) compared to say actually installing a system from a set of installation CD's (say Redhat) I assumed this as I couldn't imagine that anyone would use Knoppix from the CD for any amount of time. Wayne From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Fri Jun 6 21:04:01 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Fri Jun 6 21:04:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix References: <200306061942.31342.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00e601c32c66$b6045750$0100a8c0@meep> On Friday 06 June 2003 16:01, MJ Ray wrote: > >>I want to know what you can't do with Knoppix that I could by doing a > >>full install. [snip] >Speed is the main one, and saving core settings can only be done to a >floppy disk, I think. Upgrading is also rather difficult for a CD. > Erm, when I read this I assumed he meant > Knoppix (installed after running the > hdinstall script) compared to say actually > installing a system from a set of > installation CD's (say Redhat) Me too. I'd also like to know myself what the major differences are between a Knoppix HDD install and an average Debian install. I'm told that Knoppix IS debian once it is installed on the Hard Disk and the debian wallpaper that keeps popping up suggests this is correct. But you need to a dist-upgrade to make it "proper" debian. In another thread MJR mentioned that some parts of Knoppix have dodgy licensing. We now have about three machines with Knoppix on at school and one failed Debian install from this afternoon, but I got distracted by a DVD. (thanks for the deb discs adam!) From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 7 11:23:01 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sat Jun 7 11:23:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem Message-ID: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> I'm getting a bit frustrated. Firstly, I'm not talking about booting off the CD-ROM, I can do that fine. I've installed Knoppix to the hard disk of a computer, with great ease I might add, so it's now meant to be a Debian system (see other thread somewhere or other...) Every time I boot the system from cold it freezes half way through booting X at a sickly grey screen and an immobile X cursor in the centre. If the computer has been turned on a while and I shut it down, it boots up again fine. I don't quite know what to do, I suspect it could be a hardware problem? The hardware is all quite a few years old and from various dubious second hand locations. (A poor geek has to get his kit from somewhere, can't afford to buy it new!) Thanks in advance Ben "tola" Francis From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Sat Jun 7 12:19:02 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Sat Jun 7 12:19:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <200306071216.53401.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Saturday 07 June 2003 10:22, Ben Francis wrote: > Every time I boot the system from cold it freezes half way through booting > X at a sickly grey screen and an immobile X cursor in the centre. If the > computer has been turned on a while and I shut it down, it boots up again > fine. Sounds like X is starting but the windows manager isn't. It could be a graphics card problem. But whenever I have had these "starting from cold the first time" problems it has usually been down to the Power Supply, normally however that manifests itself at the Power on Self Test stage in the bios and not after the OS has loaded. If you live anywhere near Bury St Edmunds you are welcome to pop over to my office and borrow bits to swap out to help you isolate the fault. Wayne From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Sat Jun 7 12:25:01 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Sat Jun 7 12:25:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix In-Reply-To: <00e601c32c66$b6045750$0100a8c0@meep> References: <200306061942.31342.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> <00e601c32c66$b6045750$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <200306071223.35252.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Friday 06 June 2003 20:03, Ben Francis wrote: > > Erm, when I read this I assumed he meant > > Knoppix (installed after running the > > hdinstall script) compared to say actually > > installing a system from a set of > > installation CD's (say Redhat) > > Me too. I'd also like to know myself what the major differences are between > a Knoppix HDD install and an average Debian install. I'm told that Knoppix > IS debian once it is installed on the Hard Disk and the debian wallpaper > that keeps popping up suggests this is correct. But you need to a > dist-upgrade to make it "proper" debian. In another thread MJR mentioned > that some parts of Knoppix have dodgy licensing. Well as far as I can tell the only major differences are that with the Knoppix install you have no precise control over what packages are installed, or control over what drivers are used (i.e Open/Non Open Nvidia drivers). The dist-upgrade bit is surely just updating any older packages that were on the Knoppix CD Naturally these are things that can be corrected later on, but what of these Licensing issues ? I didn't see that thread, can someone enlighten me please. From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 7 12:57:01 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sat Jun 7 12:57:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> <200306071216.53401.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <014101c32ceb$cd338bf0$0100a8c0@meep> > could be a graphics card problem. I have had problems with the graphics config with it using generic drivers and I'm currently running a 1024x768 resolution on a 14" monitor which is less than comfortable! It seems to only like 1024x168 and 640x480 and when I try and force XF86Config to use 800x600 it seems to default to 640x480 and the taskbar doesn't fit on the screen! Although I can't be sure because I don't know where you can find out what resolution is currently running. There's a listing of the graphics parts of my XF86Config files here http://www.knoppix.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2617 if you're interested. > But whenever I have had these "starting > from cold the first time" problems it > has usually been down to the Power > Supply, normally however that manifests > itself at the Power on Self Test stage > in the bios and not after the OS has > loaded. odd > If you live anywhere near Bury St Edmunds > you are welcome to pop over to my > office and borrow bits to swap > out to help you isolate the fault. afraid not, but thanks for the offer. Ben "tola" Francis From paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk Sat Jun 7 13:58:02 2003 From: paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk (Paul) Date: Sat Jun 7 13:58:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix In-Reply-To: <00e601c32c66$b6045750$0100a8c0@meep> References: <200306061942.31342.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> <00e601c32c66$b6045750$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <20030607125711.QFBQ12018.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@there> To all intents and purposes, Knoppix is a Debian install. A very small number of packages come from the non-free branch, and one or two have "suspect" licencing issues (Nvidia drivers, and shockwave plugins spring to mind). The Knoppix kernel has one patch applied that isn't in the mainstream sources, it allows 512 characters on the boot command line. If you don't want the heavyweight KDE and apps, an alternative would be Morphix http://www.morphix.org - This is a knoppix derivative that uses an interesting method of mixing and matching modules to produce a Live CD. I have a Morphix system installed on two machines here at the moment - They certainly look like a "proper" Debian install, and I'm currently adding some packages from Sarge. No conflicts have been found to date - Nor do I expect any. Regards, Paul. On Friday 06 June 2003 9:03 pm, Ben Francis wrote: > Me too. I'd also like to know myself what the major differences are between > a Knoppix HDD install and an average Debian install. I'm told that Knoppix > IS debian once it is installed on the Hard Disk and the debian wallpaper > that keeps popping up suggests this is correct. But you need to a > dist-upgrade to make it "proper" debian. -- "To err is human...to really f*** things up requires the root password." From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Sat Jun 7 16:19:02 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Sat Jun 7 16:19:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]/etc/rc.d/init.d/functions and the right way Message-ID: <200306071617.22390.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Could somebody please mail me a copy of this file. SuSE seems to follow a different convention whereby the file is in /etc/init.d/ and defines a different set of functions. For example in my version there is no gprintf function Most of my system scripts work as such (using rc.status) case "$1" in start) echo -n "Starting snmpd:" startproc $SNMPD -c /etc/ucdsnmpd.conf -r -A -l /var/log/ucd-snmpd.log -P /var/run/snmpd.pid rc_status -v ;; stop) echo -n "Shutting down snmpd:" killproc -TERM $SNMPD rc_status -v ;; etc...etc The one I want to add is like the following case "$1" in start) # Start daemon. gprintf "Starting spamd: " daemon spamd -d -c -a RETVAL=$? touch /var/lock/spamd echo ;; stop) # Stop daemons. gprintf "Shutting down spamd: " killproc spamd RETVAL=$? rm -f /var/lock/spamd echo ;; Which way is the "right" way and why oh why are their two seemingly incompatible ways. Gahhhh For now I have converted the bottom script to work like the top one. Wayne From ian at redtommo.com Sat Jun 7 20:25:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sat Jun 7 20:25:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <200306072017.55956.ian@redtommo.com> On Saturday 07 Jun 2003 11:22 am, Ben Francis wrote: > I'm getting a bit frustrated. > > Firstly, I'm not talking about booting off the CD-ROM, I can do that fine. > I've installed Knoppix to the hard disk of a computer, with great ease I > might add, so it's now meant to be a Debian system (see other thread > somewhere or other...) > > Every time I boot the system from cold it freezes half way through booting > X at a sickly grey screen and an immobile X cursor in the centre. If the > computer has been turned on a while and I shut it down, it boots up again > fine. I don't quite know what to do, I suspect it could be a hardware > problem? The hardware is all quite a few years old and from various dubious > second hand locations. (A poor geek has to get his kit from somewhere, > can't afford to buy it new!) > > Thanks in advance > > Ben "tola" Francis Most likely a RAM problem. Happened to me a few years ago. Try re-seating them or swapping them round. If your problem was the same as mine this will not cure it but the failure point changes. Solution is new RAM. Ian From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 8 11:09:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 8 11:09:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> <200306072017.55956.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: Ian Bell wrote: > not cure it but the failure point changes. Solution is new RAM. Poor hackers might like to try the badram patch, if it's still available. It's been a few years since I used it. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From ian at redtommo.com Sun Jun 8 14:53:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sun Jun 8 14:53:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> <200306072017.55956.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <200306081445.48795.ian@redtommo.com> On Sunday 08 Jun 2003 11:09 am, MJ Ray wrote: > Ian Bell wrote: > > not cure it but the failure point changes. Solution is new RAM. > > Poor hackers might like to try the badram patch, if it's still > available. It's been a few years since I used it. In my case the problem was also time/temperature related i.e the bad RAM location was not constant. Does the badram patch cope with this? Ian From abower at thebowery.co.uk Sun Jun 8 15:19:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Sun Jun 8 15:19:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: <200306081445.48795.ian@redtommo.com> References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> <200306072017.55956.ian@redtommo.com> <200306081445.48795.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <20030608141842.GA5451@thebowery.co.uk> On Sun, Jun 08, 2003 at 02:45:48PM +0100, Ian Bell wrote: > On Sunday 08 Jun 2003 11:09 am, MJ Ray wrote: > > Ian Bell wrote: > > > not cure it but the failure point changes. Solution is new RAM. > > > > Poor hackers might like to try the badram patch, if it's still > > available. It's been a few years since I used it. > > In my case the problem was also time/temperature related i.e the bad RAM > location was not constant. Does the badram patch cope with this? the badram patch only deals with bad ram in known locations, if you had the badram moving around then that sounds a bit nasty and time to put the module in the bin! If you are buying RAM I can recommend using crucial http://www.crucial.com/uk they are cheap to the point of not being crap, and they have good warranties. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From mail at johnwoodard.co.uk Sun Jun 8 15:46:01 2003 From: mail at johnwoodard.co.uk (John Woodard) Date: Sun Jun 8 15:46:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: <20030608141842.GA5451@thebowery.co.uk> References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> <200306081445.48795.ian@redtommo.com> <20030608141842.GA5451@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <200306081547.25888.mail@johnwoodard.co.uk> On Sunday 08 Jun 2003 3:18 pm, Adam Bower wrote: > If you are buying RAM I can recommend using crucial > http://www.crucial.com/uk they are cheap to the point of not being crap, > and they have good warranties. I concur, good prices for ram as good as you will get anywhere, they also do weird and wonderful stuff that's difficult to get hold of. Cheers, BJ From ian at redtommo.com Sun Jun 8 15:54:01 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sun Jun 8 15:54:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: <200306081547.25888.mail@johnwoodard.co.uk> References: <012201c32cde$b48b0f40$0100a8c0@meep> <20030608141842.GA5451@thebowery.co.uk> <200306081547.25888.mail@johnwoodard.co.uk> Message-ID: <200306081546.06021.ian@redtommo.com> On Sunday 08 Jun 2003 3:47 pm, John Woodard wrote: > On Sunday 08 Jun 2003 3:18 pm, Adam Bower wrote: > > If you are buying RAM I can recommend using crucial > > http://www.crucial.com/uk they are cheap to the point of not being crap, > > and they have good warranties. > > I concur, good prices for ram as good as you will get anywhere, they also > do weird and wonderful stuff that's difficult to get hold of. > Equally good value for laptop RAM too. Ian From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 8 19:42:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 8 19:42:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]/etc/rc.d/init.d/functions and the right way References: <200306071617.22390.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Wayne Stallwood wrote: > SuSE seems to follow a different convention whereby the file is in=20 > /etc/init.d/ and defines a different set of functions. I think http://www.linuxbase.org/spec/refspecs/LSB_1.3.0/gLSB/gLSB/iniscrptfunc.html describes all that can be safely assumed, by the way. Anything that assumes more is fair game for fixing, I think. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From neill at entora.co.uk Mon Jun 9 06:01:02 2003 From: neill at entora.co.uk (Neill Newman) Date: Mon Jun 9 06:01:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Weekly IRC reminder Message-ID: This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!) From keith.watson at kewill.com Mon Jun 9 09:27:01 2003 From: keith.watson at kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Mon Jun 9 09:27:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: <200306081546.06021.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: > From: Ian Bell > On Sunday 08 Jun 2003 3:47 pm, John Woodard wrote: > > On Sunday 08 Jun 2003 3:18 pm, Adam Bower wrote: > > > If you are buying RAM I can recommend using crucial > > > http://www.crucial.com/uk they are cheap to the point of not being crap, > > > and they have good warranties. > > > > I concur, good prices for ram as good as you will get anywhere, they also > > do weird and wonderful stuff that's difficult to get hold of. > > > > Equally good value for laptop RAM too. > However I recently bought a 256M PC100 DIMM from Maplin in Norwich for 48.99, which was as cheap as anything I'd seen on the web (once you take the cost of P&P into account). Regards, Keith ____________ CLAIRVOYANT, n. Persons who have the power of seeing that which is invisible to their patrons, namely, that they are fools. Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary From abower at thebowery.co.uk Mon Jun 9 09:52:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Mon Jun 9 09:52:01 2003 Subject: cheap Ram was Re: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: References: <200306081546.06021.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <20030609085109.GB5451@thebowery.co.uk> On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 09:31:05AM +0100, Keith Watson wrote: > > However I recently bought a 256M PC100 DIMM from Maplin in Norwich for 48.99, which was as cheap as > anything I'd seen on the web (once you take the cost of P&P into account). You were ripped off there! could have saved 83p buying from crucial (although you could have bought PC133 RAM from them which would have cost 41.11 and works in 99.9% of cases where you need PC100). The other reasons I buy from crucial is that they seem to have a no quibble replacement policy on faulty RAM (the one time i returned some RAM they replaced it within 24hours) and you also know it is not going to be like no-name RAM which I have had so many problems with in the past. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From craig at wizball.co.uk Mon Jun 9 16:16:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Mon Jun 9 16:16:02 2003 Subject: cheap Ram was Re: [Alug]Knoppix boot problem In-Reply-To: <20030609085109.GB5451@thebowery.co.uk> References: <200306081546.06021.ian@redtommo.com> <20030609085109.GB5451@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030609134136.GB3399@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 09:51:09AM +0100, Adam Bower wrote: > You were ripped off there! could have saved 83p buying from crucial (although > you could have bought PC133 RAM from them which would have cost 41.11 and works > in 99.9% of cases where you need PC100). > > The other reasons I buy from crucial is that they seem to have a no quibble > replacement policy on faulty RAM (the one time i returned some RAM they > replaced it within 24hours) and you also know it is not going to be like > no-name RAM which I have had so many problems with in the past. Crucial are amazing. Full stop. Next day delivery, excellent support etc. Just what every company should be doing in this damn world! -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From dan.hatton at btinternet.com Mon Jun 9 17:02:01 2003 From: dan.hatton at btinternet.com (Dan Hatton) Date: Mon Jun 9 17:02:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request In-Reply-To: <84r867xr9t.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: Thanks for all the advice everyone. It led me to give up on using boot scripts, and get Login.app to to the job, and a couple of other things, via its /etc/X11/Login.app/Login.app.initcmd script. I added to the end of this script [1]: if [ -x /usr/sbin/sleepd ]; then sleepd --sleep-command "xset dpms force off" -u 300 sleepd --sleep-command "hdparm -y /dev/hda" -u 600 sleepd --sleep-command "apm -S" -u 900 fi The intention is to switch off the monitor when the system's been idle for 5 minutes, put the hard drive in standby after 10 minutes idle, and put the whole system in standby after 15 minutes. The ideas of using xset and hdparm came from . This works, in the sense that it gets the required processes running, although so far, I've only had the patience to check that the monitor one does what I intended. [1] This script is also in sh. Comments in one or two of the boot scripts suggest that they've been converted from bash to sh. I am prepared to speculate that this has been done to comply with some kind of standard, and that the standard in question could be Debian policy. -- Thanks again Dan From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Mon Jun 9 21:05:02 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Mon Jun 9 21:05:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request In-Reply-To: (Dan Hatton's message of "Mon, 09 Jun 2003 16:02:37 GMT") References: <84r867xr9t.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <8465nf586i.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Dan Hatton writes: > [1] This script is also in sh. Comments in one or two of the boot > scripts suggest that they've been converted from bash to sh. I > am prepared to speculate that this has been done to comply with > some kind of standard, and that the standard in question could > be Debian policy. I'm not aware of anything in the Debian policy manual that says that scripts must use plain sh; indeed it quite clearly mentions the possibility of bash scripts (and reminds you to use the right #! line). Avoiding gratuitous dependencies on particular shells can often be desirable, however. -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From paul at aptanet.com Tue Jun 10 00:33:01 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Tue Jun 10 00:33:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]IPMasq file structure Message-ID: <20030609233004.GA11615@aptanet.com> Does anyone know of a good website to help me get my head around the file structure for the configuration files of IPMasq? I've just installed it on a server I've setup and I'd like to make a few changes to the IPChain configurations, but although I can see the idea behind splitting up the config into a collection of files I can't get my head around which files to alter or how to add any - probably largely due to the fact that they are coded as fairly generic solutions and read info from the system configuration. Of course the other reason could be that I'm practically dead on my feet and my brain isn't on top form! :-) -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From andrew.wallis at vulpes.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 10 15:32:01 2003 From: andrew.wallis at vulpes.demon.co.uk (Andrew Wallis) Date: Tue Jun 10 15:32:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]RE: Bourne shell script for APM: help request In-Reply-To: <20030610052515.3218.39223.Mailman@terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk> Message-ID: <000c01c32f5d$01f05ee0$0201a8c0@foxcottage.private.zone> Unless I missed something, only one person mentioned "eval" and then seemed to dismiss it almost immediately. I think that's a pity because it's just these sorts of problems that "eval" is designed for. The following two scriptettes demonstrate: --------- script -------------- #!/bin/sh PARMS='p1 p2 --command "this is a command" p5' eval ./daemon $PARMS ------- end script ------------ --------- daemon -------------- #!/bin/sh declare -i PN=1 for PARM in "$@" do echo "parameter $PN = \"$PARM\"" PN=PN+1 done ------- end daemon ------------ Gives: parameter 1 = "p1" parameter 2 = "p2" parameter 3 = "--command" parameter 4 = "this is a command" parameter 5 = "p5" which is what was wanted wasn't it? I probably missed something as I'm seriously advanced in the senility stakes. Regards Andrew Wallis From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 10 17:47:01 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Tue Jun 10 17:47:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings Message-ID: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> Could we please change the dates of Norwich meetings from the third Thursday of the month as this the day RUNG meets. Also could another venue be picked. -- Tarquin Mills Reboot Movement (An Anti-Wintel Campaign) http://www.planet14.sonow4u.co.uk/comp/reboot/ From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 10 22:36:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Tue Jun 10 22:36:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: Tarquin Mills wrote: > Could we please change the dates of Norwich meetings from the third > Thursday of the month as this the day RUNG meets. Also could another > venue be picked. What is RUNG? Which of the two venues so far discussed (Forum and British Legion Hall) don't you like? From dan.hatton at btinternet.com Tue Jun 10 22:48:01 2003 From: dan.hatton at btinternet.com (Dan Hatton) Date: Tue Jun 10 22:48:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Bourne shell script for APM: help request In-Reply-To: <8465nf586i.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > I'm not aware of anything in the Debian policy manual that says that > scripts must use plain sh; There doesn't seem to be anything that insists on sh for the init script itself, but for its configuration in /etc/default, which is what I was trying to edit, Debian Policy Manual section 10.3.2 says "It must contain only variable settings and comments in POSIX sh format." -- Dan From syd at toufol.com Wed Jun 11 07:41:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Wed Jun 11 07:41:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: <200306110736.08038.syd@toufol.com> > Could we please change the dates of Norwich meetings from the > third Thursday of the month as this the day RUNG meets. Also > could another venue be picked. I'm happy to change things to suit the maximum number of people (although unfortunately it is rarely possible to find a time and place for any meeting that suits absolutely everybody). From preceding discussions, thursday evenings seem to be the best (least-worst) for most people. It doesn't have to be the third thursday of the month but that would depend on when a suitable venue is available on a regular basis. NPCUG have their meetings during the first week of the month. Which thursday would people prefer if not mid-way between the npcug meets? I'm assuming that the venue that you would prefer to be changed is the Venue coffee bar and that has been generally agreed. Coincidentally I phoned the RBL (Royal British Legion Hall) in Aylsham road, Norwich, yesterday (before seeing the messages) and have booked a room for thursday 19th June (and provisionally for the third thursday of the following months) and was about to post an announcement. If it is the RBLH you are not keen on then that is fine if there is somewhere else suitable that is also available regularly? In the meantime: the next Norwich evening meeting will take place at the British legion Hall, Aylsham road, thursday 19th June from 8-11 pm. I will post more details e.g. the full address, after I have been to check the room at the weekend. However from what I've heard it should be suitable - tables, power points, a bar. Cost is GBP15 - I suggest a whip-round at the time. Regards Syd From barry.samuels at btinternet.com Wed Jun 11 08:40:02 2003 From: barry.samuels at btinternet.com (Barry Samuels) Date: Wed Jun 11 08:40:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Compiling kernel and modules Message-ID: <20030610211646.A15648@dataman1> I have compiled kernels many times but it has just occurred to me that after compiling and installing the new modules they are now running under the current (old) kernel until the new kernel is booted. How long could this situation go on without causing problems? Would it cause problems at all? Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain From craig at wizball.co.uk Wed Jun 11 09:24:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Wed Jun 11 09:24:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Compiling kernel and modules In-Reply-To: <20030610211646.A15648@dataman1> References: <20030610211646.A15648@dataman1> Message-ID: <20030611082526.GA22383@cablaptop> On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 09:16:46PM +0100, Barry Samuels wrote: > I have compiled kernels many times but it has just occurred to me that > after compiling and installing the new modules they are now running > under the current (old) kernel until the new kernel is booted. > > How long could this situation go on without causing problems? Would it > cause problems at all? Same kernel versions? That could be the answer. Check the Makefile in /usr/src/linux VERSION = 2 PATCHLEVEL = 5 SUBLEVEL = 70 EXTRAVERSION = -mm6 Take mine for example, the extra version is useful to build seperate kernel and modules. If this isn't what you are looking for then I'm going back to work ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Wed Jun 11 09:31:02 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Wed Jun 11 09:31:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: <000301c32ff4$4e549e80$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Tarquin Mills > > Could we please change the dates of Norwich meetings from the third > Thursday of the month as this the day RUNG meets. Also could another > venue be picked. > -- > Tarquin Mills Crikey, you make ALUG sound very authoritarian! :o) My experience is that we're a pretty easy going mob, so if you have suggestions as to when and where, we'll see what we can do. :o) Regards, Keith PS what's RUNG? From raph at panache.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 09:52:02 2003 From: raph at panache.demon.co.uk (raph at panache.demon.co.uk) Date: Wed Jun 11 09:52:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Compiling kernel and modules In-Reply-To: <20030610211646.A15648@dataman1> Message-ID: On 10-Jun-2003 Barry Samuels wrote: > I have compiled kernels many times but it has just occurred to me that > after compiling and installing the new modules they are now running > under the current (old) kernel until the new kernel is booted. > > How long could this situation go on without causing problems? Would it > cause problems at all? > Many kernels are totally independent of the kernel version. Just so long as the kernel/module interface does not change. -- A liberal is a person whose principles are not at stake at the moment. - Willis Player Raphael Mankin E-Mail: raph at panache.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------- From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 11 14:24:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Wed Jun 11 14:24:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <000301c32ff4$4e549e80$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: Keith Watson wrote: > PS what's RUNG? Tarquin emailed me to say that it's the Risc-OS User Group (but wouldn't that be RUG?) and that he'd like to see the UEA weekend meetings return. Can anyone at UEA help with them? tsw people have been busy with exams and now are away for the summer, I think. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From john at paston.co.uk Wed Jun 11 15:49:02 2003 From: john at paston.co.uk (John Billings) Date: Wed Jun 11 15:49:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <000301c32ff4$4e549e80$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: <3EE74088.1080609@paston.co.uk> MJ Ray wrote: >Keith Watson wrote: > > >>PS what's RUNG? >> >> > >Tarquin emailed me to say that it's the Risc-OS User Group (but wouldn't >that be RUG?) > RUNG, Riscos Users, Norwich Group (fna NAUG, Norwich Acorn User Group) cheers, John From paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk Wed Jun 11 17:44:02 2003 From: paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk (Paul) Date: Wed Jun 11 17:44:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: <200306110736.08038.syd@toufol.com> References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306110736.08038.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <20030611164320.MJVN9882.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@there> Hi Syd The RBLH suits me just fine - The date and time is noted, and I'll try my best to make it. BTW, The rooms all have ample power points, and the beer is good value ! Regards, Paul. On Wednesday 11 June 2003 7:36 am, Syd Hancock wrote: > In the meantime: the next Norwich evening meeting will take place at > the British legion Hall, Aylsham road, thursday 19th June from 8-11 > pm. -- "To err is human...to really f*** things up requires the root password." From ian at redtommo.com Wed Jun 11 22:01:01 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Wed Jun 11 22:01:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: <200306110736.08038.syd@toufol.com> References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306110736.08038.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <200306112154.11915.ian@redtommo.com> On Wednesday 11 Jun 2003 7:36 am, Syd Hancock wrote: snip > > In the meantime: the next Norwich evening meeting will take place at > the British legion Hall, Aylsham road, thursday 19th June from 8-11 > pm. Unfortunately I won't be able to make this one. The dog goes in for major surgery nest week so life is on hold. Ian From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 11 22:26:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Wed Jun 11 22:26:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem Message-ID: I bought myself a Logitech Trackball yesterday (the confusingly called marble mouse), but am having a bit of trouble setting it up. Instead of a scroll wheel it has 2 buttons which are meant to act in the same way (one button scrolls up, the other down). As it stands currently the two scroll buttons act as middle mouse buttons but the scrolling doesn't work. My XF86 config file has the mouse set up as a 5 button mouse (I tried 4 button but it didn't like that *at all*) with buttons 4 & 5 set up as the Y axis. Also, to confuse matters I'm left handed, but I've solved that problem through judicious use of xmapmod (and my early attempts at playing with xmapmod (accidently) proved that I can get scrolling working, just not on the right buttons ) Can anyone offer any help please? (I'm using XFree86 4.1.2 (I think)) cheers, BenE From syd at toufol.com Wed Jun 11 22:39:01 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Wed Jun 11 22:39:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: <200306112233.09513.syd@toufol.com> > Could we please change the dates of Norwich meetings from the > third Thursday of the month as this the day RUNG meets. In principle I agree that we should avoid clashes with other computing-group meeetings as much as possible. For this month it is really too short notice now for most people, given that the date was chosen several weeks ago after discussion on the list. For the future: on a practical level, the only proviso is if the RBLH is available regularly long-term on another thursday or if another suitable venue can be found. Tarquin, where does RUNG meet? To any and all who are likely to be attending the Norwich evening meets regularly - is either the second or fourth thursday of the month a problem or a preference? Please let me or the list know asap so that we can get firm dates fixed on a regular and predictable basis. UEA meets were mentioned - I think there are some more being organised for the autumn semester - details are on the website. When UEA is not available then RBLH seems likely to be a suitable alternative. As ever, open to suggestions. Syd From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 12 10:22:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 12 10:22:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs Message-ID: <20030612092400.GA6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> At the moment, I am thinking about ditching my 3 months old laptop to get a ibook. Why? My housemate bought one last friday and it is _gorgeous_. Okay, that would be a bit of a understatement but I am using a imac at work on and off. But dang, I'm still impress with the ibook. Is it a smart move to ditch this laptop to switch over? Many people I have spoken to are doing this! If anyone on this mailing list is using OS X. Please convince me if I really want to make the switch. So far, I am really appealed by the o/s, battery life and most of all, it's unixy feel! ;) I'm interested to hear your thoughts! -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From andrew at numptyheads.com Thu Jun 12 12:25:02 2003 From: andrew at numptyheads.com (Andrew Keedle) Date: Thu Jun 12 12:25:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: <20030612092400.GA6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> References: <20030612092400.GA6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030612112337.GA4708@numptyheads.com> On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 10:24:00AM +0100, Craig wrote: > At the moment, I am thinking about ditching my 3 months old laptop to > get a ibook. Why? My housemate bought one last friday and it is > _gorgeous_. Okay, that would be a bit of a understatement but I am using > a imac at work on and off. > > But dang, I'm still impress with the ibook. Is it a smart move to ditch > this laptop to switch over? Many people I have spoken to are doing this! > > If anyone on this mailing list is using OS X. Please convince me if I > really want to make the switch. So far, I am really appealed by the o/s, > battery life and most of all, it's unixy feel! ;) > > I'm interested to hear your thoughts! I have a PowerBook G4 15" and by jove it is a sexy little thing. I have Debian (Testing/Unstable) + Kernel 2.4.20 (benh) running on it and everything is great. X is great, sleep works, airport card works, sound works. Modem is a no. The only thing that is downside is the latest Java SDK's available are 1.3.1. IBM is working on a 1.4.1, but that's only beta at the moment. Oh, another thing is the single mouse button. I don't like trackpads anyway so I always stick in a three-button mouse, so it's not a problem for me. Don't know how the above compares with an iBook, although I believe there are issues with maybe video card and ide stuff? Check out debian-powerpc list. From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 12 12:30:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 12 12:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: <20030612112337.GA4708@numptyheads.com> References: <20030612092400.GA6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030612112337.GA4708@numptyheads.com> Message-ID: <20030612113140.GC6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 12:23:37PM +0100, Andrew Keedle wrote: > I have a PowerBook G4 15" and by jove it is a sexy little thing. I have > Debian (Testing/Unstable) + Kernel 2.4.20 (benh) running on it and > everything is great. X is great, sleep works, airport card works, sound > works. Modem is a no. Weeeeee someone got one! ;) Well, I would like to use OSX to be honest, but then I could always run XDarwin and use a seperate desktop ;) Hmm! > The only thing that is downside is the latest Java SDK's available are > 1.3.1. IBM is working on a 1.4.1, but that's only beta at the moment. Hmm cripes. Thanks. > Oh, another thing is the single mouse button. I don't like trackpads > anyway so I always stick in a three-button mouse, so it's not a problem > for me. Heh. Well that is a little bit of a downfall but then I am not really bothered as long I can get things done! > Don't know how the above compares with an iBook, although I believe there > are issues with maybe video card and ide stuff? Check out debian-powerpc > list. Perhaps. Thanks for taking the time to reply! I will check out Debian-powerpc but then again.. there is always gentoo ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From rob at vetsystems.com Thu Jun 12 12:43:01 2003 From: rob at vetsystems.com (Robert Tillyard) Date: Thu Jun 12 12:43:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: <20030612092400.GA6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 12/6/03 10:24 am, "Craig" wrote: > At the moment, I am thinking about ditching my 3 months old laptop to > get a ibook. Why? My housemate bought one last friday and it is > _gorgeous_. Okay, that would be a bit of a understatement but I am using > a imac at work on and off. > > But dang, I'm still impress with the ibook. Is it a smart move to ditch > this laptop to switch over? Many people I have spoken to are doing this! > > If anyone on this mailing list is using OS X. Please convince me if I > really want to make the switch. So far, I am really appealed by the o/s, > battery life and most of all, it's unixy feel! ;) > > I'm interested to hear your thoughts! I'm using OS X on a 17" PowerBook. OS X has a location manager that changes your TCP/IP setting on the fly (without reboot) so I leave the PowerBook running and switch between Work/Home. Apple provides a free X11 implementation so everything I do on our UNIX servers I still do but from the PowerBook. Most of my UNIX code seems to just compile on OS X without too much hassle (the Development System is included free on every Mac). I've started to learn Objective-C to write native Mac Applications. I have MySQL, PHP and all of the usual geeky stuff running (had to download those). Apache was installed by default. So you get all this UNIX core plus a UI that's vastly prettier than XP and just works so nicely that I never find myself fighting it like I do if I'm forced to touch Windows. Plus I've got MP3/ACC CD ripping and burning (iTunes), my digital camera works out of the box with no drivers (iPhoto) my Digital Video camera just works without drivers and I can edit my video (iMovie) and I can make my own Video/Data DVD's (iDVD). So far everything I've mentioned came free with the PowerBook. The only software I bought was Microsoft Office and Photoshop Elements. I was originally going to buy an iBook but the screen is only 1024x768 (The same as my iMac) and although it has an external video connector the external monitor still only runs in 1024x768 in mirroring mode only. If 1024x768 is too small you may want to look at the 12" PowerBook (just been reduced in price to ?1,299 including VAT). It runs in 1024x768 but can run two monitors so you can use 1024x768 on the train but at the office you can plug into a 21" monitor and run the PowerBooks screen at 1024x768 but have the screen span both monitors I run my 21" at 1600x1024 (Will run up to 1920x1200). The 17" runs in 1440x900. The 17" Also has built in 802.11g and Bluetooth that I use to communicate with my Sony Erriccson T68i (id I mention that worked out of the box with no drivers as well). One button sync's my contacts. I bought some $10 shareware that allows the T68i to be used as a remote control, so I can run PowerPoint using my phone as a remote keypad. I hope to be able to make an ALUG meeting other than Elmswell at some point and bring it with me. Let me know if you want any more info. Regards, Rob. From rob at vetsystems.com Thu Jun 12 13:30:51 2003 From: rob at vetsystems.com (Robert Tillyard) Date: Thu Jun 12 13:30:51 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: <20030612113140.GC6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 12/6/03 12:31 pm, "Craig" wrote: >> The only thing that is downside is the latest Java SDK's available are >> 1.3.1. IBM is working on a 1.4.1, but that's only beta at the moment. > > Hmm cripes. Thanks. Apple has 1.4.1 for OS X available at http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple/java.html If you're about to buy some hardware it may be worth while waiting for the WWDC (World Wide developers Conference) to pass as it's widely expected new 64bit PowerMacs to be announced which may have an effect on the pricing for 32bit equipment, if not you haven't lost anything (apart from two weeks of heaven). Regards, Rob. From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 12 13:52:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 12 13:52:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: References: <20030612113140.GC6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030612125409.GD6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 01:29:17PM +0100, Robert Tillyard wrote: > Apple has 1.4.1 for OS X available at > http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple/java.html > > If you're about to buy some hardware it may be worth while waiting for the > WWDC (World Wide developers Conference) to pass as it's widely expected new > 64bit PowerMacs to be announced which may have an effect on the pricing for > 32bit equipment, if not you haven't lost anything (apart from two weeks of > heaven). Thanks to this department I am working in, I can actually buy one using their education discount. So a nice ibook (900mhz, 128mb ram, 40 gig hdd etc etc 12.1") is worth around ?923 inc vat! I could wait but really, the switch would be decent right now. Decisions, decisions! -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From barry.samuels at btinternet.com Thu Jun 12 19:47:02 2003 From: barry.samuels at btinternet.com (Barry Samuels) Date: Thu Jun 12 19:47:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels Message-ID: <20030612183104.A5126@dataman1> I have just replaced my monitor with a TFT panel. When X is started (I have changed XF86Config-4 appropriately) the image will sometimes appear perfectly positioned but at other times the right-hand edge of the image appears in the centre of the screen with the rest disappearing off the left edge and the image looks a little distorted. If I then switch to a text console and back to the graphics console the image is displayed correctly. I have never seen this with my old monitor neither does it happend on my laptop (TFT screen). Can anyone suggest why it should happen? Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Thu Jun 12 21:49:02 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Thu Jun 12 21:49:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels In-Reply-To: <20030612183104.A5126@dataman1> References: <20030612183104.A5126@dataman1> Message-ID: <200306122145.51075.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Thursday 12 June 2003 17:31, Barry Samuels wrote: > When X is started (I have changed XF86Config-4 appropriately) the image > will sometimes appear perfectly positioned but at other times the > right-hand edge of the image appears in the centre of the screen with > the rest disappearing off the left edge and the image looks a little > distorted. If I then switch to a text console and back to the graphics > console the image is displayed correctly. Pure guesswork here but, The monitor probably samples the horizontal and vertical refresh rates in order to determine how to fill the screen properly. It maybe that if X is starting at a certain time during this supposed sampling then the monitor determines incorrect information. and messes up the timing in the analog signal. By changing to a tty and back again you are changing resolution and/or refresh intervals forcing the monitor to sample again (this time getting it right) Have you set the HorizSync and VertRefresh rates in your config file to those specified by the monitor manufacturer ? It does not matter if the recommended settings seem quite low (i.e. 60Hz) as unlike CRT's this is not the refresh you actually see, just the timing interval in the video signal. Other than that it could be a faulty unit or maybe there is a setting somewhere in the on-screen config on the monitor to tell it not to bother working out the image position/size and let you do it manually. (however the last thing is quite unlikely as most TFT's don't need the manual size adjustments that CRT's do, the display area on a TFT is a definite thing) As far as I can work out Laptops should never suffer this because the video is sent to the display as a digital signal (similar to the DVI or similar output on high end video cards) with a fixed clock rate (as opposed to the variable timings present in the analog VGA signal) As I say pure guesswork here, but it might be worth a shot. From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Thu Jun 12 22:31:01 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Thu Jun 12 22:31:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Thursday 12 June 2003 12:29, Robert Tillyard wrote: > If you're about to buy some hardware it may be worth while waiting for the > WWDC (World Wide developers Conference) to pass as it's widely expected new > 64bit PowerMacs to be announced which may have an effect on the pricing for > 32bit equipment, if not you haven't lost anything (apart from two weeks of > heaven). This is a good point and especially the G3 ibooks should due to hit the end of production soon enough. I for one don't think Apple will be announcing any Powerbooks based on the PPC970 at the WWDC (despite what I keep reading on certain MacRumor sites). But any new processor technology announced by Apple (even in a Desktop machine) will have a knock on effect on the pricing of all the lower spec models and I wouldn't be surprised if Apple actually announce price drops on certainly the G3 machines and possibly the G4's at (or just after) the WWDC. There is a chance that they may wait to MacWorld Expo (which is about two months away) before announcing anything. Personally I wouldn't buy an ibook, I'd save up some more money and go for a Powerbook. I know it's quite a financial leap but after using OSX on both G3 and G4 machines I'd have to conclude that it is a far better experience on a G4. Besides which the G3 is getting pretty long in the tooth now (even the bottom end eMac uses a G4) I must admit I keep thinking about getting a Powerbook myself, Who'd have thought it... From paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk Thu Jun 12 22:41:02 2003 From: paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk (Paul) Date: Thu Jun 12 22:41:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> References: <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20030612214014.VLPV15180.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@there> All this talk about iMacs has prompted me to take a look at a thinclient I have lying around here... PowerPC 403GA processor with 8Mb RAM (wow !). To use this, I would need to build a cross-compiler toolchain. The question is - Do I need a little endian or big endian compiler ? Regards, Paul. On Thursday 12 June 2003 11:28 pm, Wayne Stallwood wrote: > Re: [Alug]Macs -- "To err is human...to really f*** things up requires the root password." From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Thu Jun 12 23:23:01 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Thu Jun 12 23:23:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]PPC 403GA In-Reply-To: <20030612214014.VLPV15180.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@there> References: <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> <20030612214014.VLPV15180.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@there> Message-ID: <200306122320.06670.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Thursday 12 June 2003 21:39, Paul wrote: > All this talk about iMacs has prompted me to take a look at a thinclient I > have lying around here... PowerPC 403GA processor with 8Mb RAM (wow !). > To use this, I would need to build a cross-compiler toolchain. The > question is - Do I need a little endian or big endian compiler ? I'd say big-endian as that is the default for PPC AFAIK I think (and someone can correct me here) that the PPC little endian mode is not quite the same as TRUE little endian (although some PPC chips may support both) From abower at thebowery.co.uk Thu Jun 12 23:24:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Thu Jun 12 23:24:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels In-Reply-To: <200306122145.51075.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> References: <20030612183104.A5126@dataman1> <200306122145.51075.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20030612210308.GH977@thebowery.co.uk> On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 09:45:51PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote: > On Thursday 12 June 2003 17:31, Barry Samuels wrote: > > When X is started (I have changed XF86Config-4 appropriately) the image > > will sometimes appear perfectly positioned but at other times the > > right-hand edge of the image appears in the centre of the screen with > > the rest disappearing off the left edge and the image looks a little > > distorted. If I then switch to a text console and back to the graphics > > console the image is displayed correctly. > As I say pure guesswork here, but it might be worth a shot. Thats along my lines of thought, most of the panels I have played with have an auto-adjust button that resizes the screen. Does yours have one, and does it work? Also if you turn the screen off and on again does that make it work also? Of course one other option is that can you get DVI output from your graphics card and into your screen also? Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 12 23:53:02 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Thu Jun 12 23:53:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: <200306112233.09513.syd@toufol.com> References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306112233.09513.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: Syd Hancock wrote: > Tarquin Mills wrote: > > Could we please change the dates of Norwich meetings from the > > third Thursday of the month as this the day RUNG meets. > In principle I agree that we should avoid clashes with other > computing-group meeetings as much as possible. [snip] > For the future: on a practical level, the only proviso is if the > RBLH is available regularly long-term on another thursday or if > another suitable venue can be found. Tarquin, where does RUNG meet? RUNG meets up stairs at Holy Trinty's new hall in Cambridge street. However ALUG could book our old venue of the Billy Bluelight Pub Nelson room. Which is separate hall with power points at the back of pub. The cost for an evening is fifteen pounds. I do not like the RBLH (NPCUG meet there among other things). While the Forum cafe is not a true venue. -- Tarquin Mills RUNG (RISC OS Users, Norfolk Group) From syd at toufol.com Fri Jun 13 08:08:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Fri Jun 13 08:08:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306112233.09513.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <200306130802.32280.syd@toufol.com> > Tarquin Mills wrote: > RUNG meets up stairs at Holy Trinty's new hall in Cambridge > street. However ALUG could book our old venue of the Billy > Bluelight Pub Nelson room. Which is separate hall with power > points at the back of pub. The cost for an evening is fifteen > pounds. I do not like the RBLH (NPCUG meet there among other > things). While the Forum cafe is not a true venue. OK, thanks for the info. Completely agreed re the Forum Cafe which is why alternatives were discussed several weeks ago. I will check these venues for future availability although obviously it is too late for the forthcoming meeting on thursday 19th June which will remain at RBLH. To help with decisions, it would be useful if you could summarise the differences between the RBLH and the other venues, as someone who knows them, especially what you don't like about RBLH. Also why RUNG changed venues? Email or on list. As requested before by several people on the list - if anyone knows of any other suitable venues in Norwich, please let people know. Best wishes Syd From andrew at numptyheads.com Fri Jun 13 08:09:01 2003 From: andrew at numptyheads.com (Andrew Keedle) Date: Fri Jun 13 08:09:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs In-Reply-To: <20030612113140.GC6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> References: <20030612092400.GA6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030612112337.GA4708@numptyheads.com> <20030612113140.GC6585@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030612114856.GB4708@numptyheads.com> On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 12:31:40PM +0100, Craig wrote: > > Perhaps. Thanks for taking the time to reply! I will check out > Debian-powerpc but then again.. there is always gentoo ;) I've got it dual-booted with OSX, which is very very pretty, but I don't get a great feeling with it???? Perhaps, just haven't used it enough. I'm also a little miffed with Apple. All their blurb on their website say to go from OSX 10.1 to 10.2 (Jaguar) requires paying the full cost, about 90quid. jigsaw24.com do an upgrade disc (official apple) for less than a tenner! Dont' get me started... I would like to stick OpenBSD on it, but as far as I can work out at the moment X is unaccelled for this model. Nevermind... From russelp at mac.com Fri Jun 13 08:13:02 2003 From: russelp at mac.com (russelp at mac.com) Date: Fri Jun 13 08:13:02 2003 Subject: [Alug] Macs In-Reply-To: <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <16EC431F-9D6B-11D7-8100-000393CC34EA@mac.com> I've just bought a 12inch G4 powerbook, and I have to say, so far I'm extremely impressed. I /was/ going to go for the 17 inch model, but decided I couldn't justify the extra grand or so. Personally, I think ?1300 (got a slight discount on mine) is extremely reasonable for a laptop of this quality. One of my main concerns was the size of the screen (only 12 inch, and 1024x768), but I have to say, I've had no problems with it -- partly I suspect because of MacOS X's universal anti-aliasing and alpha-blending (Quartz rocks) approach. Now all I want is for apple to write a full office suite to rival Office, and we'll be away (apple's prices seem much more reasonable than microsoft's as far as I can see). Paul On Thursday, June 12, 2003, at 11:28 pm, Wayne Stallwood wrote: > On Thursday 12 June 2003 12:29, Robert Tillyard wrote: >> If you're about to buy some hardware it may be worth while waiting >> for the >> WWDC (World Wide developers Conference) to pass as it's widely >> expected new >> 64bit PowerMacs to be announced which may have an effect on the >> pricing for >> 32bit equipment, if not you haven't lost anything (apart from two >> weeks of >> heaven). > > This is a good point and especially the G3 ibooks should due to hit > the end of > production soon enough. I for one don't think Apple will be announcing > any > Powerbooks based on the PPC970 at the WWDC (despite what I keep > reading on > certain MacRumor sites). > > But any new processor technology announced by Apple (even in a Desktop > machine) will have a knock on effect on the pricing of all the lower > spec > models and I wouldn't be surprised if Apple actually announce price > drops on > certainly the G3 machines and possibly the G4's at (or just after) the > WWDC. > > There is a chance that they may wait to MacWorld Expo (which is about > two > months away) before announcing anything. > > Personally I wouldn't buy an ibook, I'd save up some more money and go > for a > Powerbook. I know it's quite a financial leap but after using OSX on > both G3 > and G4 machines I'd have to conclude that it is a far better > experience on a > G4. Besides which the G3 is getting pretty long in the tooth now (even > the > bottom end eMac uses a G4) > > I must admit I keep thinking about getting a Powerbook myself, Who'd > have > thought it... > > _______________________________________________ > main at lists.alug.org.uk > http://www.alug.org.uk/ > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! > > -- Paul Russell play at paulrussell.org From mail at edenyard.co.uk Fri Jun 13 09:11:02 2003 From: mail at edenyard.co.uk (Edenyard) Date: Fri Jun 13 09:11:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels Message-ID: <200306130810.AEG97882@msgdirector2.onetel.net.uk> Barry Samuels wrote: > > I have just replaced my monitor with a TFT panel. > ...then Adam Bower wrote: > > Thats along my lines of thought, most of the panels I have played with have an > auto-adjust button that resizes the screen. Does yours have one, and does it > work? Also if you turn the screen off and on again does that make it work also? > For what it's worth, my experience with Linux and TFTs got off to a very frustrating start. My Linux box runs SLackware 8.1 and has an ATI AGP video card identified as 'ATI 3D Pro Turbo' which I'd managed to set up quite nicely with my Dell 15" CRT monitor and everything seemed to work well - even the screen blanking after about 15 minutes. When I received an LG Flatron 1510S LCD to try on extended loan, I read its book, set the vertical rate to 60Hz for all modes as suggested and was met with a blank screen on starting X. I tried every combination of settings I could think of, but it wouldn't have it. Eventually, I swapped my XF86 config file for one provided by Slackware called XF86config-fbdev, which I think uses a plain VESA driver. At last pictures, but that's about all. Now the screen blanking doesn't work in X at all and there's a curious effect when the screen tries to blank in non-X working: the normal white text blanks, but any highlighted text (e.g., in 'man' pages) remains displayed - very odd. I also had problems when I tried to use the Flatron LCD to install Suse 8.1 on a friend's PC. No matter what settings I tried, the image on the screen would flash on and off every 1 or 2 seconds while X was running. Eventually I gave up and used a CRT monitor for the rest of that installation job. I know that that particular PC installation has been used since with a Philips LCD without any apparent problems, so maybe Flat Ron hasn't quite got the hang of something! Maybe not all LCDs are equal? The LG Flatron 1510S has one of those autoselect buttons mentioned by Adam, but I find that it generally manages to hit a setting that's far from optimal, especially when working at less than its maximum 1024x768 resolution. That applies equally in Linux and also in DOS, which is where I spend most of my working hours. I've found that the best way to set the clock and phase settings on the LCD is to display a screen full of very small dots (the 'grid' on a CAD programme works very wellfor this) and then adjust 'clock' and 'phase' to remove any visible interference patterns visible between the grid structure and the LCD's dot structure. If you get these settings wrong, some vertical lines (depending on where on the screen they fall) get smeared horribly across several of the LCD's pixels - useless for CAD! Interestingly, when I tried the Knoppix CD (kindly provided by Adam) on my box, it ran up, detected my video card and LCD and managed to set the correct parameters first time using an ATI driver. And it managed to pick a good-looking smaller than normal font for the text display whilst booting up - something I've never succeeded in doing with Slackware. All I told Knoppix was that the vertical rate should be 60Hz at the boot prompt. Cheers, Gerald. From craig at wizball.co.uk Fri Jun 13 09:25:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Fri Jun 13 09:25:02 2003 Subject: [Alug] Macs In-Reply-To: <16EC431F-9D6B-11D7-8100-000393CC34EA@mac.com> References: <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> <16EC431F-9D6B-11D7-8100-000393CC34EA@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030613082643.GA3286@cablaptop> On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 07:48:50AM +0100, russelp at mac.com wrote: > I've just bought a 12inch G4 powerbook, and I have to say, so far I'm=20 > extremely impressed. I /was/ going to go for the 17 inch model, but=20 > decided I couldn't justify the extra grand or so. Personally, I think=20 > =A31300 (got a slight discount on mine) is extremely reasonable for a=20 > laptop of this quality. Going for the 17" model would be extremely ideal but then it would be far too big for my liking. It is all down to shaping what you want to do on a mac. > One of my main concerns was the size of the screen (only 12 inch, and > 1024x768), but I have to say, I've had no problems with it -- partly I > suspect because of MacOS X's universal anti-aliasing and alpha-blending > > (Quartz rocks) approach. 1024x768 is still standards nowadays to be honest. I'm running 1024x768 on this and it just seems fine. Of course, going up higher resolution would be nice but I am not bothered as long _work_ can get done. > Now all I want is for apple to write a full office suite to rival=20 > Office, and we'll be away (apple's prices seem much more reasonable=20 > than microsoft's as far as I can see). There is apple works but I agree with you.. with the way apple is going now, they should write an excellent office suite. Who knows? -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From Dan at celticmusic.com Fri Jun 13 09:54:02 2003 From: Dan at celticmusic.com (Dan Beimborn) Date: Fri Jun 13 09:54:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels Message-ID: <3EE98FDF.4050405@celticmusic.com> I run on a flat panel with a DVI and it's always rock-solid, but I recall at my last job a number of the workstations we had needed to have the refresh rate set in XF86Config so that there was only one choice, 60hz. From messing around with running Linux on arcade monitors (no, really!) I can tell you that the image not being centered like that is quite likely a timing issue. Running xvidtune will help you create your exact modeline, and strangely enough so will AdvanceMame video setup program. Once you have that modeline in for your desktop resolution, it should always work. A second complication I had that was similar was with my laptop- it supports a key combination to use the external display, which is somewhat confusion to X. Basically, you had to start it either on the local, on the secondary, or on both displays. Setting it to external only would result in it sometimes "Remembering" the higher refresh rate, causing my display to go off to the right of the screen just like you describe! SO my advice is to try to make sure your XF86Config *only* allows the correct refresh rate, and make it be one that you have centered as best you can using xvidtune or AdvanceMame's video mode generator. DB From richard.lewis at uea.ac.uk Fri Jun 13 11:08:01 2003 From: richard.lewis at uea.ac.uk (richard) Date: Fri Jun 13 11:08:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Linux and TFT In-Reply-To: <20030613052512.15820.28325.Mailman@terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk> References: <20030613052512.15820.28325.Mailman@terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk> Message-ID: <1055498867.1896.4.camel@x0151262> I'm running a laptop system and once had problems with a text based installer (for Debian 3.0). I found an option in my BIOS to 'stretch output to fit screen' (or something along those lines. I don't know whether a similar BIOS option might be available but it fixed my problem. Rich. > I have just replaced my monitor with a TFT panel. > When X is started (I have changed XF86Config-4 appropriately) the > image > will sometimes appear perfectly positioned but at other times the > right-hand edge of the image appears in the centre of the screen with > the rest disappearing off the left edge and the image looks a little > distorted. If I then switch to a text console and back to the > graphics console the image is displayed correctly. > I have never seen this with my old monitor neither does it happend on > my laptop (TFT screen). Can anyone suggest why it should happen? > Barry Samuels > http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk > The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain From john at paston.co.uk Fri Jun 13 11:50:02 2003 From: john at paston.co.uk (John Billings) Date: Fri Jun 13 11:50:02 2003 Subject: Arcade Machine (Was Re: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels) In-Reply-To: <3EE98FDF.4050405@celticmusic.com> References: <3EE98FDF.4050405@celticmusic.com> Message-ID: <3EE9AC3C.6050509@paston.co.uk> Dan Beimborn wrote: > I run on a flat > > AdvanceMame's video mode generator. Can I assume from that post that you did something sick with a multiple-arcade-game-in-a-cabinet type thing using linux? cheers, John From hoon at celticmusic.com Fri Jun 13 12:00:02 2003 From: hoon at celticmusic.com (Dan Beimborn) Date: Fri Jun 13 12:00:02 2003 Subject: Arcade Machine (Was Re: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels) In-Reply-To: <3EE9AC3C.6050509@paston.co.uk> References: <3EE98FDF.4050405@celticmusic.com> <3EE9AC3C.6050509@paston.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EE9AE88.7060707@celticmusic.com> John Billings wrote: > Dan Beimborn wrote: > >> I run on a flat >> >> AdvanceMame's video mode generator. > > Can I assume from that post that you did something sick with a > multiple-arcade-game-in-a-cabinet type thing using linux? Yeah, but nothing sick.. I set up a nice 29" jaleco sit-down arcade cabinet so I could hook it up to a computer or the arcade boards I used to collect. It's pretty cool to se X-windows running on a game screen, though after a while it's more thrilling to use it to play games on! AdvanceMame is far and away the best way to set up a cabinet.. and AdvanceMame on linux is the most easily tunable (for me anyway) version of mame to use. Advancemame can be found on sourceforge, or via retrogames.com I got into it because I was a collector of the Capcom games. We had a cabinet at the office that we bought on eBay in startup fever days, and we used to play Street Fighter variants on lunch hour (and sometimes not on lunch hour!). When we discovered that you could play interesting hacks & so forth in the emulated versions, we hooked up some computer guts inside the cabinet and made a wiring harness to switch between real & computer-emulator games. At the office, I had it so we could be playing Street Fighter with a tiny picture-in-picture in the corner that had my sysadmin notifications squirting into it. It was done with a borderless xwindow that was full-screen, and a smaller one in the corner that was set tailing a logfile :) I liked the idea, so I got the parts and made one at home. It lasted about a month before I burned out the Horizontal sync inverter trying to get my 1024x768 mode better centered & sized and accidentally fed it too much signal! It's actually a pretty easy hack. Here in the UK with your SCART connectors, it's very easy to roll your own tv-out cable, you just have to be careful not to fry your TV with the wrong signal! DB From andy at totalsolution.co.uk Fri Jun 13 15:51:02 2003 From: andy at totalsolution.co.uk (Andy Trevor) Date: Fri Jun 13 15:51:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Samba LDAP Message-ID: <002301c331ba$fbf7b960$a739a8c0@tscl.local> Hi, I am looking for some help with setting up a Samba PDC using LDAP to authenticate I have a working LDAP server that can authenticate unix users Samba users can authenticate using smbclient ok I am having real problems getting the Windows 2000 clients to join the samba domain Any help will be much appreciated Thanks Andy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.alug.org.uk/pipermail/main/attachments/20030613/655bf2c7/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.alug.org.uk/pipermail/main/attachments/20030613/655bf2c7/attachment.gif From gt at pobox.com Fri Jun 13 16:12:01 2003 From: gt at pobox.com (gt at pobox.com) Date: Fri Jun 13 16:12:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings Message-ID: Ian Bell wrote : > On Wednesday 11 Jun 2003 7:36 am, Syd Hancock wrote: > > snip > > > > In the meantime: the next Norwich evening meeting will take place at > > the British legion Hall, Aylsham road, thursday 19th June from 8-11 > > pm. > > Unfortunately I won't be able to make this one. The dog goes in for major > surgery nest week so life is on hold. > > Ian > Neither will I, owing to being in Zhenzhou (central China) currently and for the next couple of weeks. But at least my hotel room has free 128k broadband. Reckon I ate the dog tonight for dinner. -- GT From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 13 17:34:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 13 17:34:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem References: Message-ID: BenE wrote: > as a 5 button mouse (I tried 4 button but it didn't like that *at all*) > with buttons 4 & 5 set up as the Y axis. Also, to confuse matters I'm ZAxisMapping? Tried putting the numbers the other way around? What xmodmap settings are you using? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 13 17:37:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 13 17:37:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Macs References: <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> <200306122228.37043.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> <20030612214014.VLPV15180.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@there> Message-ID: Paul wrote: > have lying around here... PowerPC 403GA processor with 8Mb RAM (wow !). > To use this, I would need to build a cross-compiler toolchain. The question > is - Do I need a little endian or big endian compiler ? Apples always used to be the opposite of x86, didn't they? I'd just try it and use the other one if it doesn't work. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From barry.samuels at btinternet.com Fri Jun 13 17:40:02 2003 From: barry.samuels at btinternet.com (Barry Samuels) Date: Fri Jun 13 17:40:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux and TFT panels Message-ID: <20030613165325.A18498@dataman1.ibmpeers> Thanks to the various people who responded. Wayne Stallwood said: > Have you set the HorizSync and VertRefresh rates in your config file > to those specified by the monitor manufacturer ? Yes I have Adam Bower said: > Thats along my lines of thought, most of the panels I have played > with have an > auto-adjust button that resizes the screen. Does yours have one, and > does it > work? Yes it does have one but I haven't tried it when the display is squashed. > Also if you turn the screen off and on again does that make it work? Yes. I hadn't though to try that but it does correct the problem. > Of course one other option is that can you get DVI output from your > graphics > card and into your screen also? I have a Matrox G400 which appears not to have a DVI output although the TFT panel does have a digital input. Dan Beimborn said: > Running xvidtune will help you create your exact modeline, and > strangely enough so will AdvanceMame video setup program. Once you > have that modeline in for your desktop resolution, it should always > work. I tried that but it made no difference. It could be that the line I added to XF86Config-4 wasn't correct. I reproduce the relevant sections below: Section "Monitor" Identifier "Viewsonic VG191" HorizSync 30.0-82.0 VertRefresh 50-75 #ModeLine "1280x1024" 135.00 1280 1296 1440 1688 1024 1025 1028 1066 +hsync +vsync Option "DPMS" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "Matrox G400" Monitor "Viewsonic VG191" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 1 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 4 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 8 Modes "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 15 Modes "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 16 Modes "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection The modeline, now commented out, was the one xvidtune gave me. Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain From syd at toufol.com Fri Jun 13 21:39:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Fri Jun 13 21:39:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]directory for backups Message-ID: <200306132133.39680.syd@toufol.com> I'm playing with our little home network, migrating some more functionality from windows to linux. I want to backup files from a couple of machines onto an area on my main linux box and I'm interested in opinions on best custom and practice. 1. Is it advisable to have a separate partition for the file-store area or is a separate partition sufficient? 2. Where should it be in the directory tree on the 'server' - as a subdirectory of /home or as a separate directory under / or elsewhere? 3. Are there any standard conventions for this? TIA Syd From syd at toufol.com Fri Jun 13 21:49:01 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Fri Jun 13 21:49:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]directory for backups In-Reply-To: <200306132133.39680.syd@toufol.com> References: <200306132133.39680.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <200306132143.24149.syd@toufol.com> On Friday 13 Jun 2003 9:33 pm, Syd Hancock wrote: > 1. Is it advisable to have a separate partition for the > file-store area or is a separate partition sufficient? Should be 'is a separate directory sufficient' of course. Must hire a new proof-reader :-) Syd From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 13 22:38:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Fri Jun 13 22:38:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem (fwd) Message-ID: (whoops, sent this to just MJ and not alug) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:51:36 +0100 (BST) From: BenE To: MJ Ray Subject: Re: [Alug]Trackball Problem On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, MJ Ray wrote: > BenE wrote: > > as a 5 button mouse (I tried 4 button but it didn't like that *at all*) > > with buttons 4 & 5 set up as the Y axis. Also, to confuse matters I'm > > ZAxisMapping? Tried putting the numbers the other way around? What > xmodmap settings are you using? > Sorry, yes ZAxisMapping, not Y as I said. Swapping the numbers around has no effect. They still both behave as the 3rd mouse button. I'm using xmodmap -e "pointer = 3 2 1 4 5". I'm going to give xbindkeys a try tmrw to see if that helps (I've been meaning to try it for a while. I'm using fluxboxs keymapping functionality and I plan to move away from fluxbox soon, so its a good idea). Thanks, BenE From syd at toufol.com Sat Jun 14 07:53:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sat Jun 14 07:53:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306112233.09513.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <200306140747.04681.syd@toufol.com> > street. However ALUG could book our old venue of the Billy > Bluelight Pub Nelson room. Where is the Billy Bluelight? I can't find it in the phone book. TIA Syd From Dan at celticmusic.com Sat Jun 14 10:50:02 2003 From: Dan at celticmusic.com (Dan Beimborn) Date: Sat Jun 14 10:50:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]TFT Panel Message-ID: <3EEACD4E.2090602@celticmusic.com> > Section "Monitor" > Identifier "Viewsonic VG191" > HorizSync 30.0-82.0 > VertRefresh 50-75 It strikes me that your VertRefresh should be 60.. unless your flat panel can really do 50-75? I have a whizzy hitachi DVI one that can do 60 or 70, but nothing in-between! DB From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 14 10:56:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sat Jun 14 10:56:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]directory for backups References: <200306132133.39680.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: Syd Hancock wrote: > 1. Is it advisable to have a separate partition for the file-store=20 > area or is a separate partition sufficient?=20 I'd probably just use its own directory, unless you're using LVM, in which case partitions are cheap, so why not? > 3. Are there any standard conventions for this? I'm not sure. Looking at the File Hierarchy Standard, linked from the http://www.linuxbase.org/ specification, should say if there is. I'd probably put it in /usr/local or /mnt, but what do I know? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 14 10:58:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sat Jun 14 10:58:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem (fwd) References: Message-ID: BenE wrote: > Sorry, yes ZAxisMapping, not Y as I said. Swapping the numbers around > has no effect. They still both behave as the 3rd mouse button. I'm using > xmodmap -e "pointer = 3 2 1 4 5". Curious. Can you email us the InputDevice section for your mouse please and we'll see if that has anything odd in it? Mine is: Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Mouse0" Driver "mouse" Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2" Option "Buttons" "7" Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" Option "Device" "/dev/input/mouse0" #Option "Device" "/dev/mouse" EndSection -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From barry.samuels at btinternet.com Sat Jun 14 11:41:01 2003 From: barry.samuels at btinternet.com (Barry Samuels) Date: Sat Jun 14 11:41:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]TFT Panel In-Reply-To: <3EEACD4E.2090602@celticmusic.com>; from Dan@celticmusic.com on Sat, Jun 14, 2003 at 08:22:54 +0100 References: <3EEACD4E.2090602@celticmusic.com> Message-ID: <20030614110415.A4486@dataman1> On 2003.06.14 08:22 Dan Beimborn wrote: > > Section "Monitor" > > Identifier "Viewsonic VG191" > > HorizSync 30.0-82.0 > > VertRefresh 50-75 > > It strikes me that your VertRefresh should be 60.. unless your flat > panel can really do 50-75? Manufacturers spec says: VIDEO INPUT Analog RGB Analog (75 ohms, 0.7/1.0 Vp-p) Digital DVI-D (TMDS, 100 ohms) Frequency f h : 30~82kHz, f v : 50~75Hz Sync H/V separated (TTL), composite, sync-on-green COMPATIBILITY PC VGA up to 1280x1024 non-interlaced Mac ? * PowerMac" G3/G4 up to 1280x1024 I'm assuming the little '~' means the same as '-'. From ian at redtommo.com Sat Jun 14 12:38:01 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sat Jun 14 12:38:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306141132.01295.ian@redtommo.com> On Friday 13 Jun 2003 11:39 pm, BenE wrote: > (whoops, sent this to just MJ and not alug) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:51:36 +0100 (BST) > From: BenE > To: MJ Ray > Subject: Re: [Alug]Trackball Problem Someone hold me back!!! Ian From td at transoft.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 14 13:30:02 2003 From: td at transoft.demon.co.uk (Tony Dietrich) Date: Sat Jun 14 13:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]TFT Panel In-Reply-To: <20030614110415.A4486@dataman1> References: <3EEACD4E.2090602@celticmusic.com> <20030614110415.A4486@dataman1> Message-ID: <1055593817.4804.6.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> I just installed a lovely little ProView TFT .... and had quite a few problems configuring it, until I decided to see how well the RH install can recover from problems.. I 'moved' my X config file to a .bak file, then rebooted into runlevel 5 Since it couldn't find a valid X config file, it went into recovery mode, started the xconfiguration program, recognised the new TFT screen, probed the screens parameters successfully, and wrote me a new X config file, then restarted X quite happily. I could then load the back X config file and the new one into an editor and amalgamate them. Mebbe this isn't the proper way to do it, and the usual warnings apply, but hey, it worked! On Sat, 2003-06-14 at 11:04, Barry Samuels wrote: > On 2003.06.14 08:22 Dan Beimborn wrote: > > > > Section "Monitor" > > > Identifier "Viewsonic VG191" > > > HorizSync 30.0-82.0 > > > VertRefresh 50-75 > > > > It strikes me that your VertRefresh should be 60.. unless your flat > > panel can really do 50-75? > > Manufacturers spec says: > > VIDEO INPUT Analog RGB Analog (75 ohms, 0.7/1.0 Vp-p) > Digital DVI-D (TMDS, 100 ohms) > Frequency f h : 30~82kHz, f v : 50~75Hz > Sync H/V separated (TTL), composite, sync-on-green > > COMPATIBILITY PC VGA up to 1280x1024 non-interlaced > Mac * PowerMac" G3/G4 up to 1280x1024 > > I'm assuming the little '~' means the same as '-'. > > _______________________________________________ > main at lists.alug.org.uk > http://www.alug.org.uk/ > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! -- Tony Dietrich Transoft Computer Consultants From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 14 14:54:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sat Jun 14 14:54:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem (fwd) References: <200306141132.01295.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: Ian Bell wrote: > Someone hold me back!!! Why? The situation has not changed and you even stopped answering the IMO very valid questions about your suggestion. The reason why no-one has written good list support for PINE is probably the licence, I think. MJR From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 14 16:39:01 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Sat Jun 14 16:39:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meetings In-Reply-To: <200306140747.04681.syd@toufol.com> References: <88ef75004c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306112233.09513.syd@toufol.com> <200306140747.04681.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <6f0d7f024c.planet14@boyznow.net> Syd Hancock wrote: > Tarquin Mills wrote: > > street. However ALUG could book our old venue of the Billy > > Bluelight Pub Nelson room. > Where is the Billy Bluelight? I can't find it in the phone book. It is at the city end of Hall Road opposite the Kings Arms. The Billy Bluelight is in the Yellow Pages under Public Houses, telephone 623768. -- Tarquin Mills Reboot Movement (An Anti-Wintel Campaign) http://www.planet14.sonow4u.co.uk/comp/reboot/ From sandy_Hunter at lineone.net Sat Jun 14 21:08:01 2003 From: sandy_Hunter at lineone.net (Sandy Hunter) Date: Sat Jun 14 21:08:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]My Interests Message-ID: <004d01c332b0$b46a3cc0$65f46bd5@h0g5z1> Many people describe themselves as 'newbies', my status goes beyond that. I have just acquired a very large book on linux, together with a rad hat distro and am currently wrestling with getting it to work ! I have successfully installed the operating system as a dual boot on my AMD 500mhz maching and am currently battling with making the machine communicate with the outside world. This ic complicated by the fact that my internet connection is Via a cable modem connected to a USB port - Help ! best regrds From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 14 22:31:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Sat Jun 14 22:31:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <200306141132.01295.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 2003, MJ Ray wrote: > Ian Bell wrote: > > Someone hold me back!!! > > Why? The situation has not changed and you even stopped answering the > IMO very valid questions about your suggestion. The reason why no-one > has written good list support for PINE is probably the licence, I think. > > MJR > Woah! Before this kicks off again, may I just say it was due to my cack-handedness and nothing to do with pine. BTW, my mouse settings are... Section "InputDevice" Driver "mouse" Identifier "Mouse[1]" Option "ButtonNumber" "5" Option "Device" "/dev/mouse" Option "Name" "AutoDetected" Option "Protocol" "PS/2" Option "Vendor" "AutoDetected" Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" EndSection I seem to remember a way of setting the mouse so that pressing buttons 1 & 2 will do the same thing as the 3rd button. Perhaps doing this and specifying a 4 button mouse might work? cheers, BenE (BTW, I installed XP last night. It overwrote my MBR and changed the names of my partitions...Arrggghhh!) From paul at aptanet.com Sat Jun 14 23:44:02 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Sat Jun 14 23:44:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]My Interests In-Reply-To: <004d01c332b0$b46a3cc0$65f46bd5@h0g5z1> References: <004d01c332b0$b46a3cc0$65f46bd5@h0g5z1> Message-ID: <20030614224152.GB28199@aptanet.com> ** Sandy Hunter [2003-06-14 21:07]: > Many people describe themselves as 'newbies', my status goes beyond that. I > have just acquired a very large book on linux, together with a rad hat > distro and am currently wrestling with getting it to work ! > > I have successfully installed the operating system as a dual boot on my AMD > 500mhz maching and am currently battling with making the machine communicate > with the outside world. > > This ic complicated by the fact that my internet connection is Via a cable > modem connected to a USB port - Help ! ** end quote [Sandy Hunter] I've no idea about the USB support for your device under Linux (although iirc from one of the installs I did for a customer a while back it may be a bog standard Netgear, or was it Linksys, USB to ethernet adapter). However,... Your machine is dual boot, which helps, and (from my experience with a few customers NTL setups) the set-top box and cable modem units simply communicate via an ethernet connection, so... If you get a standard ethernet card and configure it to dhcp (in the Windows boot) and then switch the connection you should be able to get up and running and register the card (iirc you go to start.ntl through a web browser - not a standard URL, but something NTL use)... Then boot into Linux and configure the card for DHCP and you should be up and running as it's already been registered in Windows. Now you could go straight to Linux and register, but since you class yourself as pre-newbie it may be worth getting it going in Windows first to give yourself the confidence that the hardware setup works. When you switch from the USB to the ethernet card you'll need to switch your cable box (set-top or modem) off for a couple of minutes. Of course I've guessed on your setup a bit here, and not gone fully into detail, so I'm not guaranteeing it'll work. Just a suggestion. You may find that there are drivers for USB and your adapter if you hunt around - I'm guessing again, but if you look at the make and model on it and look for info under USB ethernet adapters you should stand a good chance of find out about it. Good luck. Stick with it, and I'm sure there are plenty here who would help you out if you get stuck. -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 15 01:45:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 15 01:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Trackball Problem (fwd) References: <200306141132.01295.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: BenE wrote: > Option "ButtonNumber" "5" This I find interesting: I have "Buttons" instead. Did it change? > Option "Protocol" "PS/2" I think you might like to try ImPS/2 and see if they work then. Not sure if it's a big difference, though. Keep ctrl-alt-backspace handy. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. From hoon at celticmusic.com Sun Jun 15 09:30:02 2003 From: hoon at celticmusic.com (Dan Beimborn) Date: Sun Jun 15 09:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: TFT Panel Message-ID: <3EEC2E52.6040907@celticmusic.com> >> It strikes me that your VertRefresh should be 60.. unless your flat >> panel can really do 50-75? Manufacturers spec says: VIDEO INPUT Analog RGB Analog (75 ohms, 0.7/1.0 Vp-p) Digital DVI-D (TMDS, 100 ohms) Frequency f h : 30~82kHz, f v : 50~75Hz Hmm, just for grins try it at 60hz fixed, and see if that stabilizes it. To really fiddle about with it and optimize it, I'd still recommend xvidtune or advancemame's setup program to generate modelines. Once you have those set & working (and only those in your config) the variability should go away. So it sounds like your panel has a DVI but the video card doesn't? Maybe I need to sell you my Geforce 4 ti4200 and buy a radeon :) DB From alug at k1ngph1cher.com Sun Jun 15 09:35:02 2003 From: alug at k1ngph1cher.com (Ian Douglas) Date: Sun Jun 15 09:35:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level Message-ID: <001901c33319$11120b20$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> Hi folks, My hard disk has been getting rather full recently so I added a second disk yesterday to take some of the strain. Originally everything (apart from swap) was on /dev/hda5. I have installed the small new disk as /dev/hda and created a "/" and "/home" partitions on it and moved everything from hda5 onto these two partitions apart from /usr which remains on /dev/hda5 and now has room to expand a bit more as I install additional programs. Problem: I was going to mount /dev/hda5 on the new "/" as "/usr" but it has just occurred to me that the "usr" tree is actually still on /dev/hda5 as "/usr" rather than being in the top directory. I do not have enough free space on any of my petitions to use as a temporary holding area to copy the contents of the "/usr" while I move it up one level so I have temporarily got round this problem by mounting /dev/hda5 as "/old" on the new "/" and making the new "/usr" a symbolic link to "/old/usr" but was wondering if there was a simple way to shift the contents of "/usr" up one level on /dev/hda5? The PC boots and runs ok after tweaking fstab and lilo.conf; I am just interested in shifting usr to keep admin simple. Any suggestions welcome. Ian. From alug at k1ngph1cher.com Sun Jun 15 09:44:01 2003 From: alug at k1ngph1cher.com (Ian Douglas) Date: Sun Jun 15 09:44:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level References: <001901c33319$11120b20$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> Message-ID: <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> Ooops! Got confused with my hda and hdb.... Corrected version: Hi folks, My hard disk has been getting rather full recently so I added a second disk yesterday to take some of the strain. Originally everything (apart from swap) was on /dev/hda5. I have installed the small new disk as /dev/hda and created a "/" and "/home" partitions on it and moved everything from the old hard disk partition (now hdb5) onto these two partitions apart from /usr which remains on /dev/hdb5 and now has room to expand a bit more as I install additional programs. Problem: I was going to mount /dev/hdb5 on the new "/" as "/usr" but it has just occurred to me that the "usr" tree is actually still on /dev/hdb5 as "/usr" rather than being in the top directory. I do not have enough free space on any of my petitions to use as a temporary holding area to copy the contents of the "/usr" while I move it up one level so I have temporarily got round this problem by mounting /dev/hdb5 as "/old" on the new "/" and making the new "/usr" a symbolic link to "/old/usr" but was wondering if there was a simple way to shift the contents of "/usr" up one level on /dev/hdb5? The PC boots and runs ok after tweaking fstab and lilo.conf; I am just interested in shifting usr to keep admin simple. Any suggestions welcome. Ian. From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Sun Jun 15 13:05:02 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Sun Jun 15 13:05:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> ("Ian Douglas"'s message of "Sun, 15 Jun 2003 08:45:10 GMT") References: <001901c33319$11120b20$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> Message-ID: <84ptlf1r8q.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> "Ian Douglas" writes: > I do not have enough free space on any of my petitions to use as a > temporary holding area to copy the contents of the "/usr" while I > move it up one level so I have temporarily got round this problem by > mounting /dev/hdb5 as "/old" on the new "/" and making the new > "/usr" a symbolic link to "/old/usr" but was wondering if there was > a simple way to shift the contents of "/usr" up one level on > /dev/hdb5? Yes - just mv them. In detail: cd /old/usr mv * ../ # mv .* ../ # if there are any dotfiles in /usr, which is unlikely cd / umount /old rmdir /old rm /usr # i.e. remove the symlink mkdir /usr # edit fstab to make /dev/hdb5 mount on /usr rather than /old mount /usr You'll need to be root and not have anything that depends on /usr running (lsof helps if you have trouble with this). I've not tested this directly, obviously... -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From lists at pelvoux.nildram.co.uk Sun Jun 15 13:14:02 2003 From: lists at pelvoux.nildram.co.uk (Steve Fosdick) Date: Sun Jun 15 13:14:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net>; from alug@k1ngph1cher.com on Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 09:43:54 +0100 References: <001901c33319$11120b20$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> Message-ID: <20030615121322.GA5498@pelvoux.gotadsl.co.uk> On 2003.06.15 09:43, Ian Douglas wrote: > Problem: > I was going to mount /dev/hdb5 on the new "/" as "/usr" but it has > just occurred to me that the "usr" tree is actually still on > /dev/hdb5 as "/usr" rather than being in the top directory. > > I do not have enough free space on any of my petitions to use as a > temporary holding area to copy the contents of the "/usr" while I > move it up one level so I have temporarily got round this problem by > mounting /dev/hdb5 as "/old" on the new "/" and making the new "/usr" > a symbolic link to "/old/usr" but was wondering if there was a simple > way to shift the contents of "/usr" up one level on /dev/hdb5? Yes, you can do: cd /old/usr mv * .. cd .. rmdir usr cd / umount /old rm /usr mount /dev/hdb5 /usr then update /etc/fstab to mount /usr from hdb5 in future. Steve. From lists at pelvoux.nildram.co.uk Sun Jun 15 13:26:01 2003 From: lists at pelvoux.nildram.co.uk (Steve Fosdick) Date: Sun Jun 15 13:26:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <84ptlf1r8q.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk>; from rjk@terraraq.org.uk on Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 13:04:37 +0100 References: <001901c33319$11120b20$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <84ptlf1r8q.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <20030615122501.GA5714@pelvoux.gotadsl.co.uk> On 2003.06.15 13:04, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > mkdir /usr Oops, I forgot that step - use Richard's version. Steve. From alug at k1ngph1cher.com Sun Jun 15 14:00:02 2003 From: alug at k1ngph1cher.com (Ian Douglas) Date: Sun Jun 15 14:00:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level References: <001901c33319$11120b20$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net><002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <84ptlf1r8q.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <001b01c3333e$1bb45d60$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> On Sunday, June 15, 2003 1:04 PM, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > cd /old/usr > mv * ../ and... On Sunday, June 15, 2003 1:13 PM, Steve Fosdick wrote: > cd /old/usr > mv * .. Thanks for pointing this out guys... Simple when you know how! Ian. From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Sun Jun 15 19:45:02 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Sun Jun 15 19:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <20030615121322.GA5498@pelvoux.gotadsl.co.uk> (Steve Fosdick's message of "Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:14:58 GMT") References: <001901c33319$11120b20$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <002e01c3331a$440d6280$4101a8c0@noahsark.th3zu6.net> <20030615121322.GA5498@pelvoux.gotadsl.co.uk> Message-ID: <84n0gj18pp.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Steve Fosdick writes: > mount /dev/hdb5 /usr > > then update /etc/fstab to mount /usr from hdb5 in future. ...so you'll only discover that you edited /etc/fstab wrongly next time you reboot, rather than immediately. If you edit fstab and then just do "mount", not only do you detect mistakes early, you have less typing to do as well. -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From agk at lug.org.uk Sun Jun 15 22:53:01 2003 From: agk at lug.org.uk (Alasdair G Kergon) Date: Sun Jun 15 22:53:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux 2003 Conference & Tutorials, Edinburgh, 31 July - 3 Aug Message-ID: <20030615164347.GC18127@arachsys.com> See below for details of this summer's linux conference in Edinburgh. Also, don't forget to register for the Linux User & Developer Exhibition at the Birmingham NEC, Tues 24 - Thurs 26 June: http://www.linuxuserexpo.com/ http://www.linuxexpo.org.uk/ .org Village with representatives of UK LUGs and Tim O'Reilly's free talk in London on Mon 23rd June celebrating 25 years of O'Reilly books: http://www.ukuug.org/events/TimOReilly/ Alasdair ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Linux 2003 Conference & Tutorials, Edinburgh, 31 July - 3 Aug ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The UK Unix User Group's linux technical conference visits Edinburgh this year. It's a great way to broaden your knowledge and keep up-to-date with what's happening in the world of linux. Speakers include Jon 'maddog' Hall of Linux International and the new Debian Project Leader, Martin Michlmayr. The Edinburgh Linux User Group is helping with the preparations for the event, including the evening social programme. For further details please see http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2003/ Full-day Tutorials on Thursday 31st July ---------------------------------------- Inside the Linux Kernel - Stephen Tweedie (Red Hat) Python for Programmers - John Pinner & David Chan (Clockwork S/ware Syst.) Provisional Conference Programme: Friday 1st August - Sunday 3rd August ----------------------------------------------------------------------- * Business and Applications Core Business Applications for GNU/Linux The Government Gateway and Linux New Breakthroughs in Linux Supercomputing How to Get an Open Source-related Business Funded in a Down Economy Not Fired for Buying Linux? Quirks of Open Source Adopters' worldviews Free and Open Source Software in the Health Service * Embedded Systems Debian on Handheld Computers Real Time/Embedded C on Linux: An Introduction PIC Programming with Open Source Tools Linux on the eLAP Mini-ITX * GUI Development and Applications KDE Development Kroupware Cross-Platform GUI Development with WxWindows * Kernel and Device Drivers Ugly Ducklings: Resurrecting unmaintained code RelayFS: Transmitting data from kernel to userspace Simple, Robust Software RAID for Linux 2.6 XFS IrCOMM2k: Porting Linux IrDA to the Windows Kernel * Networks and Security Layer 2 Networking Vulnerabilities Forensics Linux Packet Filtering: The Future CONESYS: The COntent NEtwork SYstem * Productivity Power Shell Usage: Bash Tips & Tricks * Project Management Managing Debian Portability from a Debian perspective Software for Open Communities * Software Development Extreme Linux Programming - A Continuum N things every programmer should know about signal handling Using buildfarms to improve code * Sound Sound Systems on Linux: The Past and the Future Sweep: Real-world audio editing on Linux * Systems Administration Mass Unattended Linux Installations Using GNU/Linux to Deliver Windows XP to the Desktop * Web Automated Website Synthesis Efficiency in the XML Era Including speakers from IBM, Novell, Red Hat, SuSE, HP, SGI, GBdirect If you book before 30th June you can take advantage of the Early Bird rates e.g. UKP 30 for the conference (50% discount) or UKP 12.50 for students. (If you're not already a UKUUG member, you'll need to add the membership fee to this.) Sponsors: Positive Internet, Perforce, SGI, Astaro Web: http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2003/ Email: office at ukuug.org Tel: +44 1763 273 475 From syd at toufol.com Mon Jun 16 02:15:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Mon Jun 16 02:15:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich evening meet this thursday confirmed. Message-ID: <200306160209.09788.syd@toufol.com> Just a note to confirm that I have booked a room in the Royal British Legion Hall, Aylsham Road, Norwich for thursday evening 19th June from 8pm. There will be a formal announcement from MJR shortly but here is the basic info: It is called 'the TV room' and is immediately to your left as you enter the bar. The RBLH is on Aylsham road, on the right as you go out of Norwich, just over the brow of the hill after Drayton road. Parking available (may be limited though). If bringing kit that needs power, bring an extension lead as there seem to be very few power sockets. So, who's coming? And what kit do we intend to bring along? (Will investigate other possible venues in the next week or two). Syd From neill at entora.co.uk Mon Jun 16 06:00:03 2003 From: neill at entora.co.uk (Neill Newman) Date: Mon Jun 16 06:00:03 2003 Subject: [Alug]Weekly IRC reminder Message-ID: This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!) From alug at k1ngph1cher.com Mon Jun 16 10:30:02 2003 From: alug at k1ngph1cher.com (Ian Douglas) Date: Mon Jun 16 10:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding "Shutdown" to xdm Message-ID: <20030616102921.011aafb3.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> Hi Folks! I seem to remembmer someone on the list mentioning recently that it was possible to add a "Shutdown" button to the xdm login manager. Could someone remind me how to do this? Thanks, Ian. From raph at panache.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 16 10:50:02 2003 From: raph at panache.demon.co.uk (Raphael Mankin) Date: Mon Jun 16 10:50:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <84ptlf1r8q.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: On 15-Jun-03 Richard Kettlewell wrote: > "Ian Douglas" writes: >> [snip] > > In detail: > > cd /old/usr > mv * ../ > # mv .* ../ # if there are any dotfiles in /usr, which is unlikely ^^^ A slight oops! here. Better is to write mv .??* .. otherwise you may find that you are trying to move . and .. as well, particularly if you are root. I still wear the scars of this one, even after 20 years messing with Unix. > cd / > ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Raphael Mankin Date: 16-Jun-03 Time: 10:46:42 ---------------------------------- From n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk Mon Jun 16 10:57:02 2003 From: n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk (Neil Marjoram) Date: Mon Jun 16 10:57:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level Message-ID: <1055757408.1102.17.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Isn't it best to use a tar ? cd /olddirectory tar cvf - . | (cd /newdirectory ; tar xvf - ) Will put everything across and keep perms / times etc Neil. -- Neil Marjoram Victoria & Albert Museum From alug at k1ngph1cher.com Mon Jun 16 11:13:01 2003 From: alug at k1ngph1cher.com (Ian Douglas) Date: Mon Jun 16 11:13:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding sources to /etc/apt/sources.list Message-ID: <20030616111238.2834ea19.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> Hi Folks, I have recently installed Debian 3.0 but the only sources currently listed in my /etc/apt/sources.list are my installation CDs. I would like to add some sources from the internet so I can download security and program updates. Are there any particular sites ALUGers would recommend that I add to this source list? Thanks, Ian. From adam at drakken.com Mon Jun 16 11:19:01 2003 From: adam at drakken.com (Adam Bower) Date: Mon Jun 16 11:19:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding sources to /etc/apt/sources.list In-Reply-To: <20030616111238.2834ea19.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> References: <20030616111238.2834ea19.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> Message-ID: <1055758597.12894.10.camel@adam-linux> On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:12, Ian Douglas wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I have recently installed Debian 3.0 but the only sources currently listed in my /etc/apt/sources.list are my installation CDs. I would like to add some sources from the internet so I can download security and program updates. Are there any particular sites ALUGers would recommend that I add to this source list? > My sources.list looks something like ------ deb http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian stable main contrib non-free deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US stable/non-US main contrib non-free deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free ------ for other things you may like http://www.apt-get.org/ Adam From alug at k1ngph1cher.com Mon Jun 16 11:29:02 2003 From: alug at k1ngph1cher.com (Ian Douglas) Date: Mon Jun 16 11:29:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding sources to /etc/apt/sources.list In-Reply-To: <1055758597.12894.10.camel@adam-linux> References: <20030616111238.2834ea19.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> <1055758597.12894.10.camel@adam-linux> Message-ID: <20030616112834.0b424588.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> On 16 Jun 2003 11:16:37 +0100 Adam Bower wrote: > On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:12, Ian Douglas wrote: > Are there any particular sites ALUGers would recommend that I add to > this source list? > > My sources.list looks something like > ------ > deb http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian stable main contrib non-free > deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US stable/non-US main contrib > non-free > deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free Excellent! Thanks for that Adam... I have updated my list. Ian. From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Mon Jun 16 11:39:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Mon Jun 16 11:39:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <1055757408.1102.17.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000001c333f4$1bc9e980$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Neil Marjoram > > Isn't it best to use a tar ? > > cd /olddirectory > tar cvf - . | (cd /newdirectory ; tar xvf - ) > > Will put everything across and keep perms / times etc > as a belt and braces person this is also the way I would approach it, except that I would explicitly create an intermediate tarball so I had a backup to fall back on if it all went horribly wrong. Keith From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Mon Jun 16 11:53:01 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Mon Jun 16 11:53:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: (Raphael Mankin's message of "Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:50:31 GMT") References: <84ptlf1r8q.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <84isr61ei5.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Raphael Mankin writes: > On 15-Jun-03 Richard Kettlewell wrote: >> # mv .* ../ # if there are any dotfiles in /usr, which is unlikely > ^^^ > > A slight oops! here. Better is to write > mv .??* .. > otherwise you may find that you are trying to move . and .. as well, > particularly if you are root. I still wear the scars of this one, > even after 20 years messing with Unix. You get an error message from it, but it still does the right thing in practice. mydir$ ls -a . .. .a .b .c mydir$ mv .* .. mv: cannot overwrite directory `../.' mv: cannot overwrite directory `../..' mydir$ ls -a . .. mydir$ -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Mon Jun 16 11:53:12 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Mon Jun 16 11:53:12 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <1055757408.1102.17.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> (Neil Marjoram's message of "Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:57:32 GMT") References: <1055757408.1102.17.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <84fzma1eh3.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Neil Marjoram writes: > Isn't it best to use a tar ? > > cd /olddirectory > tar cvf - . | (cd /newdirectory ; tar xvf - ) > > Will put everything across and keep perms / times etc Why bother when mv does the job faster and more simply? -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk Mon Jun 16 13:33:02 2003 From: n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk (Neil Marjoram) Date: Mon Jun 16 13:33:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <84fzma1eh3.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> References: <1055757408.1102.17.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <84fzma1eh3.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <1055766746.1814.7.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> I don't like mv, if something goes wrong you may be left with nothing! Or full root filesystems (god bless programmers). With the tar you will keep the old dir whilst you check everything is OK in the new, then you can delete the old. For the paranoid back the whole thing up to a separate tar before you do anything at all, then as Keith says you will have a backup to fall back on when it all goes wrong. BTW the tar is very quick, used it on Solaris for years to copy over whole filesystems when they run out of space, keeps links and everything so never need to worry. Use it now a lot to shift things. Neil. On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:52, Richard Kettlewell wrote: > Neil Marjoram writes: > > Isn't it best to use a tar ? > > > > cd /olddirectory > > tar cvf - . | (cd /newdirectory ; tar xvf - ) > > > > Will put everything across and keep perms / times etc > > Why bother when mv does the job faster and more simply? -- Neil Marjoram Victoria & Albert Museum From jamesr at pethippo.co.uk Mon Jun 16 13:49:01 2003 From: jamesr at pethippo.co.uk (James Ray) Date: Mon Jun 16 13:49:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding sources to /etc/apt/sources.list In-Reply-To: <20030616112834.0b424588.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> References: <20030616111238.2834ea19.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> <1055758597.12894.10.camel@adam-linux> <20030616112834.0b424588.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> Message-ID: <20030616124809.GA10753@pipe> On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 11:28:34AM +0100, Ian Douglas wrote: > On 16 Jun 2003 11:16:37 +0100 Adam Bower wrote: > > On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:12, Ian Douglas wrote: > > Are there any particular sites ALUGers would recommend that I add to > > this source list? > > > > My sources.list looks something like > > ------ > > deb http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian stable main contrib non-free > > deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US stable/non-US main contrib > > non-free > > deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free > > Excellent! Thanks for that Adam... I have updated my list. Why not just use apt-setup? Normaly adds all the diffrent sources I need for Debian packages. -- James 'BR' Ray - EMail: jamesr at pethippo.co.uk / j.ray at herts.ac.uk - PGP : http://www.pethippo.co.uk/in.php/pgp -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.alug.org.uk/pipermail/main/attachments/20030616/3a81c480/attachment.pgp From keith.watson at kewill.com Mon Jun 16 15:24:02 2003 From: keith.watson at kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Mon Jun 16 15:24:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding sources to /etc/apt/sources.list In-Reply-To: <20030616124809.GA10753@pipe> Message-ID: > From: James Ray > On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 11:28:34AM +0100, Ian Douglas wrote: > > On 16 Jun 2003 11:16:37 +0100 Adam Bower wrote: > > > On Mon, 2003-06-16 at 11:12, Ian Douglas wrote: > > > Are there any particular sites ALUGers would recommend that I add to > > > this source list? > > > > > > My sources.list looks something like > > > ------ > > > deb http://ftp.nl.debian.org/debian stable main contrib non-free > > > deb http://non-us.debian.org/debian-non-US stable/non-US main contrib > > > non-free > > > deb http://security.debian.org/ stable/updates main contrib non-free > > > > Excellent! Thanks for that Adam... I have updated my list. > > Why not just use apt-setup? Normally adds all the different sources I need for > Debian packages. > works for me! :o) Someone on this list also pointed me in the direction of a nice little utility that takes a list of debian sites and works out which ones give the best throughput. That worked well. Sorry, I'm at work and can't remember what it is called or who told me about it. Keith ____________ Since it is no part of the words we unthinkingly use, it leaves no trace in the things we say. Dogen From paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk Mon Jun 16 18:02:02 2003 From: paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk (Paul) Date: Mon Jun 16 18:02:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding sources to /etc/apt/sources.list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030616170130.UMST7113.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@there> It wasn't me that told Keith.... But the app in question is apt-spy. Regards, Paul. On Monday 16 June 2003 3:28 pm, Keith Watson wrote: > Someone on this list also pointed me in the direction of a nice little > utility that takes a list of debian sites and works out which ones give the > best throughput. ?That worked well. ?Sorry, I'm at work and can't remember > what it is called or who told me about it -- "To err is human...to really f*** things up requires the root password." From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Mon Jun 16 18:19:01 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Mon Jun 16 18:19:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Moving a directory up one level In-Reply-To: <1055766746.1814.7.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> (Neil Marjoram's message of "Mon, 16 Jun 2003 12:34:34 GMT") References: <1055757408.1102.17.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <84fzma1eh3.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> <84fzma1eh3.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> <1055766746.1814.7.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <84d6he0wmf.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> Neil Marjoram writes: > I don't like mv, if something goes wrong you may be left with > nothing! Or full root filesystems (god bless programmers). I think you must have missed the detail that the move is within a single filesystem in this particular case. -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Mon Jun 16 21:46:01 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Mon Jun 16 21:46:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]My Interests In-Reply-To: <004d01c332b0$b46a3cc0$65f46bd5@h0g5z1> References: <004d01c332b0$b46a3cc0$65f46bd5@h0g5z1> Message-ID: <200306162142.52063.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Saturday 14 June 2003 20:08, Sandy Hunter wrote: > > I have successfully installed the operating system as a dual boot on my AMD > 500mhz maching and am currently battling with making the machine > communicate with the outside world. > > This ic complicated by the fact that my internet connection is Via a cable > modem connected to a USB port - Help ! Welcome to the list Sandy Can you tell us a bit more about this Cable modem of yours, i.e Make/Model numbers of the modem and the provider of your Internet cable service Also what version of RedHat have you installed ? Best Regards Wayne From dan.hatton at btinternet.com Mon Jun 16 22:48:02 2003 From: dan.hatton at btinternet.com (Dan Hatton) Date: Mon Jun 16 22:48:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding "Shutdown" to xdm In-Reply-To: <20030616102921.011aafb3.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, Ian Douglas wrote: > I seem to remembmer someone on the list mentioning recently that it > was possible to add a "Shutdown" button to the xdm login manager. > Could someone remind me how to do this? Thanks, Ian. There are instructions at . There's also a different method at . -- Good luck Dan Hatton From alug at k1ngph1cher.com Tue Jun 17 08:35:02 2003 From: alug at k1ngph1cher.com (Ian Douglas) Date: Tue Jun 17 08:35:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding "Shutdown" to xdm In-Reply-To: References: <20030616102921.011aafb3.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> Message-ID: <20030617083446.32a17e26.alug@k1ngph1cher.com> On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:46:52 +0100 (BST) "Dan Hatton" wrote: > There are instructions at > . Thanks for that Dan. I have modified the files as this webpage suggests and, happily, now get a "Reboot" and "Shutdown" button on the xdm login screen and these buttons work as expected; however they remain on the screen forever rather than disapearing when I have logged in. The webpage suggests two lines to add to /etc/X11/xdm/Xstartup which should kill off these buttons once I have logged in: pid=$(cat /var/run/xdmshutdown.pid 2>/dev/null) test "$pid" && kill -9 $pid 2>/dev/null The webpage says that the first line stores the PID of xdmshutdown in the variable $pid and the second line tests to see if $pid contains a value and then kills the process number $pid (the shutdown button script). If I cat /var/run/xdmshutdown.pid once I have logged on and compare this with a ps -ax I can see that this file does indeed contain the process ID of the shutdown buttons. If I then type: kill -9 `cat /var/run/xdmshutdown.pid` in a console window as root then the Shutdown buttons disappear. The two lines however do not seem to work within /etc/X11/xdm/Xstartup. Any ideas what is going wrong? Ian. From agk at lug.org.uk Tue Jun 17 13:58:02 2003 From: agk at lug.org.uk (Alasdair G Kergon) Date: Tue Jun 17 13:58:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Free conference places, LinuxUser & Developer, Birmingham, 24-26 June Message-ID: <20030617115800.GC29419@arachsys.com> Each UK LUG is offered 2 free places each day at next week's conference! http://www.linuxuserexpo.com/ But responses are needed TODAY, Tuesday 17th June. Please would someone from your LUG who reads this in time, co-ordinate a response, providing the LUG name, and for each person who wants to attend, their name, email address, and which days (Tues/Weds/Thurs). Max. 2 people per LUG per day. Alasdair -- agk at lug.org.uk *************************************************** * Response Form: Reply to amyscott at sedulous.co.uk * *************************************************** LUG Name: Name: Email: Days: Tues/Weds/Thurs [Repeat those 3 lines for each person attending] ******************************* The LinuxUser and Developer Conference, taking place next week (24-26 June) at the NEC in Birmingham, would like to offer each UK LUG two free tickets. These normally cost ?90+VAT each for the three days. Time is short, so please contact amyscott at sedulous.co.uk with the names of the individuals you would like to nominate for each day of the conference by the end of today, Tuesday. The full conference programme is available at http://www.linuxuserexpo.com Cheers Daniel James News + Web Editor LinuxUser & Developer http://www.linuxuser.co.uk From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Tue Jun 17 14:11:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Tue Jun 17 14:11:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding "Shutdown" to xdm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c334d2$88fc79d0$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Dan Hatton > On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, Ian Douglas wrote: > > I seem to remember someone on the list mentioning recently that it > > was possible to add a "Shutdown" button to the xdm login manager. > > Could someone remind me how to do this? Thanks, Ian. > > There are instructions at . > There's also a different method at > . > Or, alternatively, if you run Gnome, switch to Gnome's display manager GDM. As root run up the gdm config application and enable the reboot/shutdown menu. Keith From dan.hatton at btinternet.com Tue Jun 17 15:30:02 2003 From: dan.hatton at btinternet.com (dan.hatton at btinternet.com) Date: Tue Jun 17 15:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding "shutdown" to xdm Message-ID: <7538083.1055860190857.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> I haven't tried any of this, just found the instructions with a Google. An obvious difference between the command you tried directly, which worked, and the command in the script, which didn't, is the "2" in kill -9 $pid 2>/dev/null. I don't know what purpose, if any, it serves, and maybe you'd be better off without it. -- Dan From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Tue Jun 17 15:48:02 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Tue Jun 17 15:48:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Adding "shutdown" to xdm In-Reply-To: <7538083.1055860190857.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <000701c334e0$09d74f50$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: dan.hatton on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 3:30 PM > An obvious difference between the command you tried directly, > which worked, and the command in the script, which didn't, is > the "2" in kill -9 $pid 2>/dev/null. I don't know what > purpose, if any, it serves, and maybe you'd be better off without it. The '2>' term is redirecting any syserr output (in this case to the null device, effectively ignoring it). IIRC the usual '>' and '>>' are really just short forms of '1>' and '1>>', which is redirecting any syslog output. In the same you can append syserr output with '2>>'. so if you want to capture both syslog and syserr output to the same file you can use something like; snafu >foo.bar 2>foo.bar or, my favourite, snafu >foo.bar 2>&1 Regards, Keith ____________ fsck early and fsck often!! - anon From mail at johnwoodard.co.uk Wed Jun 18 15:39:01 2003 From: mail at johnwoodard.co.uk (John Woodard) Date: Wed Jun 18 15:39:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Web cam Message-ID: <200306181541.10318.mail@johnwoodard.co.uk> Can anyone reccomend a Linux friendly webcam for use with Gnomemeeting. Usb 1.1 any suggestions? Also what other webcam apps are worth looking at? Cheers, BJ From abower at thebowery.co.uk Wed Jun 18 22:33:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Wed Jun 18 22:33:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Alug library Message-ID: <20030618213214.GD472@thebowery.co.uk> Hi all, I got some books from O'Reilly last week for us to review, If you would like a copy of a particular book then please mail the list to say so. The one thing you have to consent to doing (apart from promising to look after the book and return it when someone else wants it) is writing a review that I can return to O'Reilly so that they will be prepared to send more review copies in future. Unfortunatly I will not be able to make the meeting tomorrow night as I have other commitments, although if you want to collect books from me then I live in Cambridge. I will also be at the next weeked meeting although I currently have that down as the 17th of August in Syleham courtesy of Big John. (not including tomorrows meeting and further Norwich evening meetings) If anyone has a venue for July (or i have forgotten Julys meeting) can they please step forwards? One possibiliy for the next meeting would be a showing of the Revolution OS DVD, so somewhere with a projector or large tele screen would be really great. Revolution OS website here > http://www.revolution-os.com/ Anyhow the books currently available in the Alug library are (this will be online soon, I just need to get a box built and hosted to put the library system on) Building Embedded Linux Systems Learning Red Hat Linux (3rd edition) Using Samba (2nd edition) Linux server hacks Free as in freedom The Cathedral and the Bazaar The root of all evil (user friendly) Anyhow if you want one of these books or can help with a venue for next month (or remind me where Julys weekend meeting venue is) then I would be very greatful. Thanks Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From abower at thebowery.co.uk Wed Jun 18 22:43:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Wed Jun 18 22:43:01 2003 Subject: DOH!! July meeting Re: [Alug]Alug library In-Reply-To: <20030618213214.GD472@thebowery.co.uk> References: <20030618213214.GD472@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030618214246.GE472@thebowery.co.uk> On Wed, Jun 18, 2003 at 10:32:14PM +0100, Adam Bower wrote: > > Anyhow if you want one of these books or can help with a venue for next month > (or remind me where Julys weekend meeting venue is) then I would be very > greatful. Doh, I need to get some more sleep I think! the next meeting is 20th July RBLH in Norwich 2-5pm (more details in this thread to come later) Thanks Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From syd at toufol.com Thu Jun 19 07:14:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Thu Jun 19 07:14:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meet this evening Message-ID: <200306190707.15822.syd@toufol.com> Just a quick reminder - thursday 19th June (today) at the RBLH (Royal British Legion Hall), Aylsham Road, Norwich. 8-11pm in 'the TV room' immediately to your left as you enter the bar. Should be some sort of sign on the door ranging from a scrawled note to a multi-coloured Tux poster. Hope to see a few people there? Syd From tristan at pc-seller.com Thu Jun 19 09:19:02 2003 From: tristan at pc-seller.com (Tristan Scott) Date: Thu Jun 19 09:19:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Web cam In-Reply-To: <200306181541.10318.mail@johnwoodard.co.uk> References: <200306181541.10318.mail@johnwoodard.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EF1665A.5070807@pc-seller.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Woodard wrote: | Can anyone reccomend a Linux friendly webcam for use with Gnomemeeting. Usb | 1.1 any suggestions? Also what other webcam apps are worth looking at? I have a Creative webcam pro, using the ov511 sensor. This seems to be a nice one, and is well supported. 640x480 and a dinky focus ring, plus a little plastic basey thing that will sit on a desk or hang on a laptop screen. Tristan | | Cheers, | BJ | | | | _______________________________________________ | main at lists.alug.org.uk | http://www.alug.org.uk/ | http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main | Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! | | - -- Tristan Scott Engineer PC-Seller Wenceslas House (Opp. Bounday pub) 355 Aylsham Road Norwich NR3 2RX Tel: 01603 442233 Fax: 01603 404410 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+8WZZcMIH05Wqj+kRAmgaAJ4uo7pSZ6FuUxopPhD56ovsD68g0wCfXdE0 njaeFN+L8x3PSHcNgHKZ/oc= =Fnxc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Thu Jun 19 09:26:02 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Thu Jun 19 09:26:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meet this evening In-Reply-To: <200306190707.15822.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <000e01c3363d$13d05070$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Syd Hancock on Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:07 AM > > Just a quick reminder - thursday 19th June (today) at the RBLH > (Royal British Legion Hall), Aylsham Road, Norwich. > Hope to see a few people there? count me in. Keith ____________ Make the most of yourself, for that is all there is to you. Ralph Waldo Emerson From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Thu Jun 19 09:32:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Thu Jun 19 09:32:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich meet this evening In-Reply-To: <200306190707.15822.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <000f01c3363d$de2a3980$79cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: Syd Hancock on Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:07 AM > > Just a quick reminder - thursday 19th June (today) at the RBLH > (Royal British Legion Hall), Aylsham Road, Norwich. > postcode is NR3 2HF, use or to get location map. Keith From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 19 12:20:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 19 12:20:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. Message-ID: <20030619112146.GB4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> http://www.edp24.co.uk/content/News/story.asp?datetime=19+Jun+2003+05%3A15&tbrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=NEWS&category=News&brand=EDPOnline&itemid=NOED18+Jun+2003+23%3A47%3A43%3A797 Really long url there guys but if you trust tinyurl... http://tinyurl.com/epgo Looks like *nix is spreading around! -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From S.Jude at uea.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 13:14:06 2003 From: S.Jude at uea.ac.uk (Simon Jude) Date: Thu Jun 19 13:14:06 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20030619112146.GB4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Craig wrote: > http://www.edp24.co.uk/content/News/story.asp?datetime=19+Jun+2003+05%3A15&tbrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=NEWS&category=News&brand=EDPOnline&itemid=NOED18+Jun+2003+23%3A47%3A43%3A797 > > Really long url there guys but if you trust tinyurl... > > http://tinyurl.com/epgo > > Looks like *nix is spreading around! There is also a big feature in the times business section today on Linux too. Simon From Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 13:59:01 2003 From: Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk ( (Ted Harding)) Date: Thu Jun 19 13:59:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-Jun-03 Simon Jude wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Craig wrote: > >> http://www.edp24.co.uk/content/News/story.asp?datetime=19+Jun+2003+05%3 >> A15&tbrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=NEWS&category=News&brand=EDPOnline&itemi >> d=NOED18+Jun+2003+23%3A47%3A43%3A797 >> >> Really long url there guys but if you trust tinyurl... >> >> http://tinyurl.com/epgo Well, that's very interesting! -- and I don't mean the news story (though that's also extremely interesting): I mean 'tinyurl'. How does 'tinyurl' work, then, to compress such a monster into 4 letters? Cheers, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 19-Jun-03 Time: 13:52:45 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 19 14:04:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 19 14:04:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030619130516.GC4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 01:52:45PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote: > >> http://tinyurl.com/epgo > > Well, that's very interesting! -- and I don't mean the news story (though > that's also extremely interesting): I mean 'tinyurl'. > > How does 'tinyurl' work, then, to compress such a monster into 4 letters? Not sure how it actually function. Probably took such a url into its database and give the refered 'new' address. When you ask for that specific URL, it calls it up and then present the site. There are many others out there but tinyurl.com is much shorter heh. -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 14:21:02 2003 From: n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk (Neil Marjoram) Date: Thu Jun 19 14:21:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> OK, so what shall we do to reverse the British Governments' ever upward ascent of Bill Gates rear, similar to that demonstrated by President Blair on Bush? We have a Microsoft university in Cambridge only for Americans, surely that breaks discrimination laws, and the policy of only using Microsoft in schools is anti competitive and thus breaks European Law? European government's have embraced open source, but alas the UK has not. Some of the electronic voting articles I have read prove very interesting, they are not geared to Linux, but to open software so they can be scrutinised as the current voting system is, again the government is not willing to look at this. I've read the Times article - looks good, Linus does not look anywhere as stressed as gates! Perhaps Bill has been installing patches on his own PC! Get it if you can, make sure all the IT managers etc see it! Time for positive action? Suggestions anyone. I would like to start with a clearly well worded and clearly demonstrable case to remove MS Office in our schools in favor of Open Office for each MP in our area (Saving Money in education wins votes!) It should also be a short non technical non bias paper (if we can be non bias!). Then lets go for the jugular latter with Linux instead of Windows (think we need a few more revisions before we have good desktop). I'll go for a draft, but my English and spelling are crap - anyone like to take up this challenge? Neil. PS I am a government funded site running Redhat 7.3!! Don't tell them! On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 13:11, Simon Jude wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Craig wrote: > > > http://www.edp24.co.uk/content/News/story.asp?datetime=19+Jun+2003+05%3A15&tbrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=NEWS&category=News&brand=EDPOnline&itemid=NOED18+Jun+2003+23%3A47%3A43%3A797 > > > > Really long url there guys but if you trust tinyurl... > > > > http://tinyurl.com/epgo > > > > Looks like *nix is spreading around! > > There is also a big feature in the times business section today on Linux > too. > > Simon > > > _______________________________________________ > main at lists.alug.org.uk > http://www.alug.org.uk/ > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! -- Neil Marjoram. Unix System Manager, Victoria and Albert Museum, Cromwell Road, London. From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 19 14:25:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 19 14:25:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030619132657.GD4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 02:20:09PM +0100, Neil Marjoram wrote: > I would like to start with a clearly well worded and clearly > demonstrable case to remove MS Office in our schools in favor of Open > Office for each MP in our area (Saving Money in education wins votes!) > It should also be a short non technical non bias paper (if we can be non > bias!). Then lets go for the jugular latter with Linux instead of > Windows (think we need a few more revisions before we have good > desktop). Excellent point. Money are disappearing so fast which always ended up in IT (Thanks microsoft for ruining education... tut tut). Linux as I think isn't quite ready for the desktop. More work is seriously needed (Okay, gnome and KDE isn't so bad but it just feels too bloated). That is just my opinion. In fact, they might as well use macs for desktop and linux for servers. Just about fits though... -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 14:36:01 2003 From: Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk ( (Ted Harding)) Date: Thu Jun 19 14:36:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 19-Jun-03 Neil Marjoram wrote: > PS I am a government funded site running Redhat 7.3!! Don't tell them! So RedHat-7.3 is a museum piece?! Mind you, I've got RH-7.2 on my laptop, but then I'm a dinosaur (see www.nhm.ac.uk) Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 19-Jun-03 Time: 14:30:59 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ From rjk at terraraq.org.uk Thu Jun 19 14:38:02 2003 From: rjk at terraraq.org.uk (Richard Kettlewell) Date: Thu Jun 19 14:38:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: ((Ted Harding) 's message of "Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:59:28 GMT") References: Message-ID: <84ptla2npc.fsf@rjk.greenend.org.uk> (Ted Harding) writes: > How does 'tinyurl' work, then, to compress such a monster into 4 letters? I rather doubt there's any compression going on - just a big index, rather. If they use upper and lower case letters and digits then they'll be able to manage around 15M URLs before they have to go over 4 characters (or use a new domain). -- http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/ From Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com Thu Jun 19 15:03:01 2003 From: Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com (Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com) Date: Thu Jun 19 15:03:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]toshiba CDT440 install problem Message-ID: Hi all: I enjoyed my first go at installing woody on laptop with no cdrom drive yesterday :-) The floor was littered with hurled floppies by the time I went to bed. I ground to a halt at installing the base system, however. I installed the kernel modules ok, then configured the pcmcia.conf file on console 2 to use my network card and the pcnet_cs driver. This resulted in the two high beeps and lsmod showing pcnet_cs ok. I then configured the network to use eth0 and gave it the appropriate addresses etc. So then I tried to use the network to install the base system, but I can't get eth0 interface up. All the right info is there that I think it should have, but no eth0. Bah. Incidentally, I loaded into ramdisk0 and root fs is currently mounted on /[some-dir-I've-forgotten-the-name-of]. Can anyone think of anything I should be looking for? Interfaces file is in /etc/pcmcia/network. loopback is working. Ta, Jen From ian at redtommo.com Thu Jun 19 15:30:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Thu Jun 19 15:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20030619112146.GB4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> References: <20030619112146.GB4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200306191530.29621.ian@redtommo.com> On Thursday 19 Jun 2003 12:21 pm, Craig wrote: > http://www.edp24.co.uk/content/News/story.asp?datetime=19+Jun+2003+05%3A15& >tbrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=NEWS&category=News&brand=EDPOnline&itemid=NOED18+ >Jun+2003+23%3A47%3A43%3A797 > > Really long url there guys but if you trust tinyurl... > > http://tinyurl.com/epgo > > Looks like *nix is spreading around! Pity they think Linux is a 'brand' which implies a *commercial* alternative. Ian From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 19 15:33:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 19 15:33:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <200306191530.29621.ian@redtommo.com> References: <20030619112146.GB4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <200306191530.29621.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <20030619143415.GE4067@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 19, 2003 at 03:30:29PM +0100, Ian Bell wrote: > > Looks like *nix is spreading around! > > Pity they think Linux is a 'brand' which implies a *commercial* alternative. As usual, newspapers cannot get anything right.. always. -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 15:36:02 2003 From: n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk (Neil Marjoram) Date: Thu Jun 19 15:36:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1056033340.2434.85.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Ted, we ain't got no dinosaurs 'ere! That's them next door. But may be able to dig up Charles Babage! Are you in the NHM? Or are you just referring to it, 'cos I need a favor from them! Neil. On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 14:30, Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk wrote: > On 19-Jun-03 Neil Marjoram wrote: > > PS I am a government funded site running Redhat 7.3!! Don't tell them! > > So RedHat-7.3 is a museum piece?! > > Mind you, I've got RH-7.2 on my laptop, but then I'm a dinosaur > (see www.nhm.ac.uk) > > Ted. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > E-Mail: (Ted Harding) > Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 > Date: 19-Jun-03 Time: 14:30:59 > ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > main at lists.alug.org.uk > http://www.alug.org.uk/ > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! -- Neil Marjoram Victoria & Albert Museum From Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com Thu Jun 19 15:56:02 2003 From: Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com (Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com) Date: Thu Jun 19 15:56:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. Message-ID: Neil Marjoram wrote: >I would like to start with a clearly well worded and clearly >demonstrable case to remove MS Office in our schools in favor of Open >Office for each MP in our area (Saving Money in education wins votes!) >It should also be a short non technical non bias paper (if we can be non >bias!). Then lets go for the jugular latter with Linux instead of >Windows (think we need a few more revisions before we have good >desktop). > >I'll go for a draft, but my English and spelling are crap - anyone like >to take up this challenge? Neil - you write a draft and I'll spell check and tweak words a bit, if you like. Jen From Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 17:02:01 2003 From: Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk ( (Ted Harding)) Date: Thu Jun 19 17:02:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <1056033340.2434.85.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 19-Jun-03 Neil Marjoram wrote: > Ted, we ain't got no dinosaurs 'ere! That's them next door. > > But may be able to dig up Charles Babage! > > Are you in the NHM? Or are you just referring to it, 'cos I need a > favor from them! Only referring to it; not in it (yet). Would like to help you with your favour, but doubt I can do more than roar up their air conditioning. Ted. > Neil. > > On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 14:30, Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk wrote: >> On 19-Jun-03 Neil Marjoram wrote: >> > PS I am a government funded site running Redhat 7.3!! Don't tell >> > them! >> >> So RedHat-7.3 is a museum piece?! >> >> Mind you, I've got RH-7.2 on my laptop, but then I'm a dinosaur >> (see www.nhm.ac.uk) >> >> Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 19-Jun-03 Time: 16:55:31 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ From john.seago at dakings.fsnet.co.uk Thu Jun 19 17:59:01 2003 From: john.seago at dakings.fsnet.co.uk (John Seago) Date: Thu Jun 19 17:59:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much Message-ID: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> Perhaps it would make more impact with the public if all traffic on the above subject were to be copied to the local papers that ran the story today! -- John Seago From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 19 22:44:02 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Thu Jun 19 22:44:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux event in Norwich next month Message-ID: <5ba133054c.planet14@boyznow.net> Peter Naulls member of the ARM-Linux team is going to demonstrate installing Linux on an Iyonix. Castle's Iyonix (http://www.iyonix.com) is the first Xscale desktop computer. Mr Naulls is porting debian ARM-Linux to it, Debonix, see http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact673.html Xscale is an ARM processor, a very popular low power cpu architecture. The meeting is at the upstairs room in the new Holy Trinty Church hall Cambridge Street at 7pm on the 17 July, the meeting will end by 10pm. http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=622165&y=307924&z=1&sv=Cambridge&st=6&tl=Cambridge+Street,+Norwich,+NR2&searchp=newsearch.srf&mapp=newmap.srf Free parking is available at the church on Essex street, as well as free coffee,tea and biscuits. All welcome. -- Tarquin Mills RUNG (RISC OS Users, Norfolk Group) From announce-request at lists.alug.org.uk Fri Jun 20 06:35:02 2003 From: announce-request at lists.alug.org.uk (announce-request at lists.alug.org.uk) Date: Fri Jun 20 06:35:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Announce digest, Vol 2 #8 - 1 msg Message-ID: <20030620052513.23743.98247.Mailman@terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk> Send Announce mailing list submissions to announce at lists.alug.org.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to announce-request at lists.alug.org.uk You can reach the person managing the list at announce-admin at lists.alug.org.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Announce digest..." --------------.--------------------------------------------.------------ alug-announce | Newsletter of the Anglian Linux User Group | Weekly(ish) --------------'--------------------------------------------'------------ ** Please send articles for this letter to announce at lists.alug.org.uk ** *** Please send replies to main at lists.alug.org.uk, not announce... *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Today's Topics: 1. LOCAL: ALUG Meeting: 19 June 2003, Norwich (MJ Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: MJ Ray To: announce at lists.alug.org.uk Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 14:37:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Alug Announce]LOCAL: ALUG Meeting: 19 June 2003, Norwich [1]ALUG [2]Map Meeting 2003.7 : Norwich: The Royal British Legion Hall, Aylsham Road, Norwich 19 June 2003 Plan for the meeting Roughly, as follows: We will meet up from 8pm onwards for an informal evening get-together for anyone interested in GNU/Linux. The room is immediately to your left as you enter the bar and is known as 'the TV room'. If you are bringing any equipment that requires mains power bring an extension lead as there seem to be very few electrical sockets. People at the meeting So far, Syd, Paul and MJR are confirmed, while various others are suspected. If you will also be coming to this meeting, please try to say so on the mailing list, so we can be prepared for the numbers! Equipment Equipment is brought at your own risk. We strongly suggest that you tag or label your kit. No known thefts have occurred at our meetings, but there is ample scope for going home with the wrong cables, etc. Be sure to bring all appropriate power cables etc. An extra extension lead will also be a good idea. So far, for this meeting, we know of: MJR A small fluffy penguin to sit on the table, so that you can find us. Discussion If you want to discuss this meeting, please [3]use the mailing list. [4]Back to the meetings index * Destinations 1. [5]Join ALUG 2. [6]FAQ 3. [7]Meetings * Local LUGs 1. [8]Peterborough 2. [9]Cambridge * Recent Donors 1. [10]PHP4Hosting 2. [11]Black Cat Networks 3. [12]Martyn Drake 4. [13]Turo Technology LLP You may think I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one [14]UK LUGs References 1. http://www.alug.org.uk/ 2. http://www.alug.org.uk/ 3. http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main 4. http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/ 5. http://www.alug.org.uk/background/contacts.html 6. http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?AlugFaq 7. http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/2003/ 8. http://www.peterboro.lug.org.uk/ 9. http://www.cam-lug.org.uk/ 10. http://www.php4hosting.co.uk/ 11. http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ 12. http://www.drake.org.uk/ 13. http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ 14. http://www.lug.org.uk/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Announce mailing list Announce at lists.alug.org.uk http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce End of Announce Digest From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 20 08:20:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 20 08:20:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Announce digest, Vol 2 #8 - 1 msg References: <20030620052513.23743.98247.Mailman@terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk> Message-ID: announce-request at lists.alug.org.uk wrote: > 1. LOCAL: ALUG Meeting: 19 June 2003, Norwich (MJ Ray) Blah. I must remember to approve announce messages quicker... From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 20 12:33:02 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Fri Jun 20 12:33:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> Jennny_Hopkins wrote: > Neil Marjoram wrote: > >I would like to start with a clearly well worded and clearly > >demonstrable case to remove MS Office in our schools in favor of Open > >Office for each MP in our area (Saving Money in education wins votes!) > >It should also be a short non technical non bias paper (if we can be non > >bias!). Then lets go for the jugular latter with Linux instead of > >Windows (think we need a few more revisions before we have good > >desktop). > > > >I'll go for a draft, but my English and spelling are crap - anyone like > >to take up this challenge? > Neil - you write a draft and I'll spell check and tweak words a bit, > if you like. If my ticket ever arrives, I will try and ask this queston on this Sunday's Dimbleby program with Charles Clarke. I help you if I can, see sig. -- Tarquin Mills Reboot Movement (An Anti-Wintel Campaign) http://www.planet14.sonow4u.co.uk/comp/reboot/ From abower at thebowery.co.uk Fri Jun 20 14:20:02 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Fri Jun 20 14:20:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> References: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: <20030620131924.GC9204@thebowery.co.uk> On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 12:22:37PM +0100, Tarquin Mills wrote: > > Reboot Movement (An Anti-Wintel Campaign) > http://www.planet14.sonow4u.co.uk/comp/reboot/ I was looking at the Reboot site and it doesn't make it clear but what are you favouring to replace the the current wintel monopoly with? I certainly don't want to go back to the old system of having many small companies each trying to trap customers in with their own small monopolies like the computer market of the 80's and early 90's. Even now it hurts to remember the vendor lockin across the entire market back then which ironically is what caused Microsoft and Intel to become the dominant vendors in such large parts of the market. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From ian at redtommo.com Fri Jun 20 15:14:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Fri Jun 20 15:14:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> References: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> On Friday 20 Jun 2003 12:22 pm, Tarquin Mills wrote: > Jennny_Hopkins wrote: > > Neil Marjoram wrote: > > >I would like to start with a clearly well worded and clearly > > >demonstrable case to remove MS Office in our schools in favor of Open > > >Office for each MP in our area (Saving Money in education wins votes!) > > >It should also be a short non technical non bias paper (if we can be non > > >bias!). Then lets go for the jugular latter with Linux instead of > > >Windows (think we need a few more revisions before we have good > > >desktop). > > > > > >I'll go for a draft, but my English and spelling are crap - anyone like > > >to take up this challenge? > > > > Neil - you write a draft and I'll spell check and tweak words a bit, > > if you like. > > If my ticket ever arrives, I will try and ask this queston on this > Sunday's Dimbleby program with Charles Clarke. I help you if I can, > see sig. As well as contributing to the debate, how about doing something tangible, like ALUG offering to support schools in making the change to Linux? Ian From n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk Fri Jun 20 19:02:01 2003 From: n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk (Neil Marjoram) Date: Fri Jun 20 19:02:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> References: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <1056130803.1149.35.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Ah ha - good idea! Thought about including that in the first email, but I thought that I should not as although this is a good idea, I my self may not be able to commit the time at present. But that does not stop anyone else! Neil. On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 15:14, Ian Bell wrote: > On Friday 20 Jun 2003 12:22 pm, Tarquin Mills wrote: > > Jennny_Hopkins wrote: > > > Neil Marjoram wrote: > > > >I would like to start with a clearly well worded and clearly > > > >demonstrable case to remove MS Office in our schools in favor of Open > > > >Office for each MP in our area (Saving Money in education wins votes!) > > > >It should also be a short non technical non bias paper (if we can be non > > > >bias!). Then lets go for the jugular latter with Linux instead of > > > >Windows (think we need a few more revisions before we have good > > > >desktop). > > > > > > > >I'll go for a draft, but my English and spelling are crap - anyone like > > > >to take up this challenge? > > > > > > Neil - you write a draft and I'll spell check and tweak words a bit, > > > if you like. > > > > If my ticket ever arrives, I will try and ask this queston on this > > Sunday's Dimbleby program with Charles Clarke. I help you if I can, > > see sig. > > As well as contributing to the debate, how about doing something tangible, > like ALUG offering to support schools in making the change to Linux? > > Ian > > > > _______________________________________________ > main at lists.alug.org.uk > http://www.alug.org.uk/ > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! -- Neil Marjoram Victoria & Albert Museum From td at transoft.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 20 20:28:02 2003 From: td at transoft.demon.co.uk (Tony Dietrich) Date: Fri Jun 20 20:28:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Open Source penetrates the Leagl market! Message-ID: <1056137260.3267.58.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> Given the subjects we've seen on here lately, I though you guys might be interested in the news that the Legal profession seem to be picking up on Linux now .... We've just had a firm order for a network of 12 systems from a small-medium sized firm of solicitors in Kent, mostly on Linux o/s, including desktop systems for the staff. One of the reasons they've crossed the divide is that they reckon they are laying themselves open to claims that the data on their systems may not be secure against intrusion, despite Redmond's denial that they would ever use the rights they claim in their EULA for that purpose. The fact that the staff had a go at a demonstration system, and wanted to switch to Linux was a boost as well :-) The fact that the firm reckons they'll save considerably on TCO helped too, as did the fact that losing the os software costs meant that the project could be brought in for ?5k less than if they'd opted for MS. -- Tony Dietrich Transoft Computer Consultancy Ltd. -- Tony Dietrich Transoft Computer Consultants From craig at wizball.co.uk Fri Jun 20 20:35:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Fri Jun 20 20:35:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Open Source penetrates the Leagl market! In-Reply-To: <1056137260.3267.58.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> References: <1056137260.3267.58.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030620193607.GC5867@cablaptop> On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 08:27:40PM +0100, Tony Dietrich wrote: > The fact that the staff had a go at a demonstration system, and wanted > to switch to Linux was a boost as well :-) > > The fact that the firm reckons they'll save considerably on TCO helped > too, as did the fact that losing the os software costs meant that the > project could be brought in for ??5k less than if they'd opted for MS. At least the spare money actually comes into some use! You should have seen us in MTH @ UEA. We are getting some more machines in and spreading debian across those should be fun as well ;) Ah the life of Linux... though I will be hoping to Apple soon =) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 20 23:18:01 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Fri Jun 20 23:18:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> References: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Ian Bell wrote: > > As well as contributing to the debate, how about doing something tangible, > like ALUG offering to support schools in making the change to Linux? > I sent a post yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have arrived yet... As I was saying, in agreement with another post, maybe an ALUG signed message to the EDP explaining about linux etc. might be helpful (I also offered to write it if no-one else wants to). Also, as Ian says might it be a good idea to get a few of us to meet the various heads of IT in schools and perhaps do a demo for them? They may or may not have a say in what OS goes on there computers, but if the latter than maybe enough 'converted' teachers could persuade whoever does decide these things to give linux a go? Just a thought... BenE From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 20 23:18:28 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Fri Jun 20 23:18:28 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, John Seago wrote: > Perhaps it would make more impact with the public if all traffic on the > above subject were to be copied to the local papers that ran the story > today! Just take out the mail headers first, otherwise it will be far too long. Good idea though, shall we do a letter to the EDP signed from ALUG then? If so, does anyone want to volunteer to write it or shall I? It's a bit of a wide-eyed dreamy idea, but could organising a couple of people to go round the Heads of IT at various schools, demoing linux etc. be a good idea too? BenE (bugger, my system clocks still wrong isn't it? Sorry everyone) From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 20 23:24:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Fri Jun 20 23:24:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, BenE wrote: > > > On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, John Seago wrote: > > > Perhaps it would make more impact with the public if all traffic on the > > above subject were to be copied to the local papers that ran the story > > today! > > Just take out the mail headers first, otherwise it will be far too long. > > Good idea though, shall we do a letter to the EDP signed from ALUG then? > If so, does anyone want to volunteer to write it or shall I? > > It's a bit of a wide-eyed dreamy idea, but could organising a couple of > people to go round the Heads of IT at various schools, demoing linux etc. > be a good idea too? > > BenE > > (bugger, my system clocks still wrong isn't it? Sorry everyone) > Oh, there's my original post. It must have gotten stuck on the freeserve queue or something (BTW, has anyone else on freeserve received a mail from them saying that in the future we *must* connect using their little app they developed? I'm assuming it windows only so I feel a change of ISP coming on) From craig at wizball.co.uk Fri Jun 20 23:26:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Fri Jun 20 23:26:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030620222754.GA22025@cablaptop> On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 12:26:00AM +0100, BenE wrote: > Oh, there's my original post. It must have gotten stuck on the freeserve > queue or something > > (BTW, has anyone else on freeserve received a mail from them saying that > in the future we *must* connect using their little app they developed? I'm > assuming it windows only so I feel a change of ISP coming on) If you are on a dialup.. try claranet. But then again..I'm on adsl (zen internet). -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From ian at redtommo.com Sat Jun 21 00:08:01 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sat Jun 21 00:08:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <200306210008.09220.ian@redtommo.com> On Saturday 21 Jun 2003 12:19 am, BenE wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Ian Bell wrote: > > As well as contributing to the debate, how about doing something > > tangible, like ALUG offering to support schools in making the change to > > Linux? > > I sent a post yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have arrived yet... > > As I was saying, in agreement with another post, maybe an ALUG signed > message to the EDP explaining about linux etc. might be helpful (I also > offered to write it if no-one else wants to). > > Also, as Ian says might it be a good idea to get a few of us to meet the > various heads of IT in schools and perhaps do a demo for them? They may or > may not have a say in what OS goes on there computers, but if the latter > than maybe enough 'converted' teachers could persuade whoever does decide > these things to give linux a go? > > Just a thought... If nothing else it would give us a chance to dispel some FUD. Ian From ian at redtommo.com Sat Jun 21 00:10:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sat Jun 21 00:10:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <200306210009.42161.ian@redtommo.com> On Thursday 19 Jun 2003 10:09 pm, BenE wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, John Seago wrote: > > Perhaps it would make more impact with the public if all traffic on the > > above subject were to be copied to the local papers that ran the story > > today! > > Just take out the mail headers first, otherwise it will be far too long. > > Good idea though, shall we do a letter to the EDP signed from ALUG then? > If so, does anyone want to volunteer to write it or shall I? Looks like you just volunteered, but if you draft it I'll be happy to comment/add etc. Ian From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 21 10:17:01 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sat Jun 21 10:17:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> > It's a bit of a wide-eyed dreamy idea, but could organising a couple of > people to go round the Heads of IT at various schools, demoing linux etc. > be a good idea too? When can you come? Bourne Grammar School South Road Bourne Lincolnshire 01778 422288 - ask for the IT department Rob Cunniffe is Director of ICT: robert.cunniffe at bourne-grammar.lincs.sch.uk From craig at wizball.co.uk Sat Jun 21 10:23:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Sat Jun 21 10:23:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <20030621092434.GA3455@cablaptop> On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 12:19:48AM +0100, BenE wrote: > > Also, as Ian says might it be a good idea to get a few of us to meet the > various heads of IT in schools and perhaps do a demo for them? They may or > may not have a say in what OS goes on there computers, but if the latter > than maybe enough 'converted' teachers could persuade whoever does decide > these things to give linux a go? Hmmm I wonder if I could convince some people at work to demostrate linux at our dept? Looks pretty decent to be honest.. but then too much hardcore linux (thousands of xterms, latex work and most of all, we all play tetris ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From abower at thebowery.co.uk Sat Jun 21 10:28:02 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Sat Jun 21 10:28:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 10:16:12AM +0100, Ben Francis wrote: > > It's a bit of a wide-eyed dreamy idea, but could organising a couple of > > people to go round the Heads of IT at various schools, demoing linux etc. > > be a good idea too? > > When can you come? I thought you guys were already set on getting a Linux lab? Anyhow nobody ever contacted me about the help I offered, the offer is still open...... Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From td at transoft.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:44:01 2003 From: td at transoft.demon.co.uk (Tony Dietrich) Date: Sat Jun 21 11:44:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <1056192253.8544.1.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> I'll have a suitable demo system set up, using a Knoppix desktop, within about a week. I'm working on it for another project, but it'll be just about right for this sort of thing. If you're interested, let me know. The system is being set up for another school demo. TD On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 10:27, Adam Bower wrote: > On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 10:16:12AM +0100, Ben Francis wrote: > > > It's a bit of a wide-eyed dreamy idea, but could organising a couple of > > > people to go round the Heads of IT at various schools, demoing linux etc. > > > be a good idea too? > > > > When can you come? > > I thought you guys were already set on getting a Linux lab? Anyhow nobody ever > contacted me about the help I offered, the offer is still open...... > > Adam -- Tony Dietrich Transoft Computer Consultants From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:47:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sat Jun 21 11:47:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. References: <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: BenE wrote: > As I was saying, in agreement with another post, maybe an ALUG signed > message to the EDP explaining about linux etc. might be helpful (I also > offered to write it if no-one else wants to). I would almost certainly sign such a message. I need to prepare, but I am a teacher of post-16 maths who is willing to demonstrations. Of course, I might have a financial interest in this (see sig) if there's demand for support. I am also an exec member of the UK Association For Free Software (web site at http://www.affs.org.uk/) and know other people who are willing to give demos in other parts of the country. (And, from what I've seen, I may not be the only ALUG member on AFFS exec for much longer. That is a really wonderful thing.) -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:49:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sat Jun 21 11:49:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]toshiba CDT440 install problem References: Message-ID: Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com wrote: > The floor was littered with hurled floppies by the time I went to bed. Is it just me, or are floppy disks getting worse? [...] > Can anyone think of anything I should be looking for? Interfaces file is in > /etc/pcmcia/network. loopback is working. Not much, sadly. Some toshibas needed special bootdisks, but I expect they've grown out of that by now. All I'd do if I were you is keep changing parts methodically until something works. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:51:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sat Jun 21 11:51:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: BenE wrote: > assuming it windows only so I feel a change of ISP coming on) http://www.ukfsn.org/ perhaps? Warning of bias: we all have a financial interest in getting more money to free software, don't we? ;-) -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:51:09 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sat Jun 21 11:51:09 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: Adam Bower wrote: > I thought you guys were already set on getting a Linux lab? Anyhow nobody ever > contacted me about the help I offered, the offer is still open...... Ditto. ;-) From syd at toufol.com Sat Jun 21 21:49:01 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sat Jun 21 21:49:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <20030620222754.GA22025@cablaptop> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <20030620222754.GA22025@cablaptop> Message-ID: <200306212147.45844.syd@toufol.com> > > (BTW, has anyone else on freeserve received a mail from them saying that > > in the future we *must* connect using their little app they developed? > > I'm assuming it windows only so I feel a change of ISP coming on) > > If you are on a dialup.. try claranet. I use The Phone Co-op for land line calls and ISP with Home Highway - good speeds, no cut-offs yet, no problems connecting. They are not the super-cheapest around (14 GBP + vat per month) but I'm happy to be supporting a Co-op as it fits some of my remaining frayed ideals. Their smtp server is called rochdalepioneers, which tickled me (the Co-operative movement started in Rochdale). Their News server via poptel.org.uk wasn't very good last time I tried it, if that is an issue. No idea about specific linux support though as I simply use a pop client for email. FWIW, the only time I needed any info I received a helpful informative email very quickly. Perhaps not for everyone but it suits me. Syd From syd at toufol.com Sat Jun 21 21:50:03 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sat Jun 21 21:50:03 2003 Subject: [Alug]Kmail config files Message-ID: <200306212149.15333.syd@toufol.com> I am moving a Kmail 1.4 to another machine. The folder Mail in my home directory holds all the messages but I cannot find the location of the config files. I expected to find a 'dot' file in the home directory such as .kmail or something similar but no such luck. Does anyone know the location of the files holding all the Kmail config information? TIA Syd From syd at toufol.com Sat Jun 21 21:50:13 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sat Jun 21 21:50:13 2003 Subject: [Alug]Norwich evening meet Message-ID: <200306212149.30126.syd@toufol.com> A small but perfectly formed gathering - Keith, Syd, Mark and Paul. Very interesting and enjoyable natter ensued. Because of many and various other monthly events (NPCUG, RUNG, PLUG), I propose that the meets be on the seconfd thursday of each month from now on. Next Norwich evening meet on thursday 10th July. Still some debate about the venue - to be confirmed. Regards Syd From syd at toufol.com Sat Jun 21 21:51:01 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sat Jun 21 21:51:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <20030620222754.GA22025@cablaptop> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <20030620222754.GA22025@cablaptop> Message-ID: <200306212149.58488.syd@toufol.com> > > (BTW, has anyone else on freeserve received a mail from them saying that > > in the future we *must* connect using their little app they developed? > > I'm assuming it windows only so I feel a change of ISP coming on) > > If you are on a dialup.. try claranet. I use The Phone Co-op for land line calls and ISP with Home Highway - good speeds, no cut-offs yet, no problems connecting. They are not the super-cheapest around (14 GBP + vat per month) but I'm happy to be supporting a Co-op as it fits some of my remaining frayed ideals. Their smtp server is called rochdalepioneers, which tickled me (the Co-operative movement started in Rochdale). Their News server via poptel.org.uk wasn't very good last time I tried it, if that is an issue. No idea about specific linux support though as I simply use a pop client for email. FWIW, the only time I needed any info I received a helpful informative email very quickly. Perhaps not for everyone but it suits me. Syd From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 21 22:49:01 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sat Jun 21 22:49:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <001101c3383e$e9e654e0$0100a8c0@meep> > > I thought you guys were already set on getting a Linux lab? Anyhow nobody ever > > contacted me about the help I offered, the offer is still open...... > > Ditto. ;-) > Yes, don't think I've forgotten! I only really posted that recent message to show that there was interest in schools. We've installed Knoppix on a handful of machines and have got Samba working. However, for the moment not much is happening with the project because the "Linux Lab" is currently being borrowed and used as a workshop for setting up a batch of 30 new PCs (with Windows 2000 I might add) and the Linux boxes were stuffed in a cupboard when I wasn't looking! That pesky IT Technician... And for that I would just like to pause to quote our IT technician on two things: "I'm going to order some A: drives" - they're called FLOPPY DISK DRIVES "So which company actually makes Linux then?" - argh. Perhaps I could convince them to dual boot the new machines in addition the the Linux Lab - although they'd have to default to windows at the moment. However, we would definately like to able to do the following in our Linux Lab: - Use a Linux box as a print server and file server accessible from the Windows machines - nearly got this working - Set up a web server for an intranet, preferably viewable from the outside world but port restrictions on our internet connection make this difficult - haven't tried this one yet, although I think it's very straight forward within our own network - We'd really like users to be able to log on to a Linux box with their windows user name and password and access their windows "home directory". Someone said (I think it was a discussion with J and slef, or someone...) that it would be easier for all students to have a common username and password - say user: student password: student - and then use their own username and password to access their windows home directory on a samba share. Was this what you meant, or did I mis-understand? - this seems a bit messy and I don't have a clue where to start - Does anyone have experience of getting Macromedia Dreamweaver 4 to run under Wine? Or perhaps could suggest a comparable HTML editor for Linux If only I could pursuade Mr C to install Knoppix on one of the two new 4.8Ghz Dell servers we've just bought... mmmmmm From paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk Sat Jun 21 23:00:02 2003 From: paul at bdiemc.fslife.co.uk (Paul) Date: Sat Jun 21 23:00:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Kmail config files In-Reply-To: <200306212149.15333.syd@toufol.com> References: <200306212149.15333.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: <20030621215918.NZVI28183.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@there> Hi Syd Look in ~/.kde/share/config/kmailrc Regards, Paul. On Saturday 21 June 2003 9:49 pm, Syd Hancock wrote: > Does anyone know the location of the files holding all the Kmail config > information? -- "To err is human...to really f*** things up requires the root password." From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jun 21 23:22:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Sat Jun 21 23:22:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <200306210009.42161.ian@redtommo.com> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <200306210009.42161.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Ian Bell wrote: > On Thursday 19 Jun 2003 10:09 pm, BenE wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, John Seago wrote: > > > Perhaps it would make more impact with the public if all traffic on the > > > above subject were to be copied to the local papers that ran the story > > > today! > > > > Just take out the mail headers first, otherwise it will be far too long. > > > > Good idea though, shall we do a letter to the EDP signed from ALUG then? > > If so, does anyone want to volunteer to write it or shall I? > > Looks like you just volunteered, but if you draft it I'll be happy to > comment/add etc. > I've had a think about this today (and I'll post a draft tmrw afternoon sometime) but 2 things spring to mind. Firstly, considering the subject it might be worth including something along the lines of, 'if you are a school and are interested in linux then contact ALUG for advice, demos. If you lot agree with this inclusion then perhaps the website could have a 'schools click here' button which links to contact details added to it? Secondly, and rather anally, if the letter were to be signed from us lot then how long should I wait before assuming no-one objects and sending it? I wouldn't like a letter to be sent in my name (although indirectly I supose) which I didn't agree with so I would be inclined to wait a few days (at least) before sending so everyone can voice objections. On the other hand, waiting too long *could* mean the story getting old and the letter not getting printed. Does anyone have any comments pls? BenE From laurie at brownowl.com Sun Jun 22 11:05:02 2003 From: laurie at brownowl.com (Laurie Brown) Date: Sun Jun 22 11:05:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]thin client Message-ID: <3EF57F88.8050208@brownowl.com> Is there anyone in the LUG with some Linux-based thin-client expertise willing and able to talk to me? I have a pretty large potential customer. Cheers, Laurie. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurie Brown laurie at brownowl.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ian at redtommo.com Sun Jun 22 12:03:01 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sun Jun 22 12:03:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <200306210009.42161.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <200306221202.56617.ian@redtommo.com> On Sunday 22 Jun 2003 12:23 am, BenE wrote: snip > > I've had a think about this today (and I'll post a draft tmrw afternoon > sometime) but 2 things spring to mind. > > Firstly, considering the subject it might be worth including something > along the lines of, 'if you are a school and are interested in linux then > contact ALUG for advice, demos. If you lot agree with this inclusion then > perhaps the website could have a 'schools click here' button which links > to contact details added to it? > > Secondly, and rather anally, if the letter were to be signed from us lot > then how long should I wait before assuming no-one objects and sending it? > I wouldn't like a letter to be sent in my name (although indirectly I > supose) which I didn't agree with so I would be inclined to wait a few > days (at least) before sending so everyone can voice objections. On the > other hand, waiting too long *could* mean the story getting old and the > letter not getting printed. > > Does anyone have any comments pls? I think we should just get on with it. Post it quick, wait a couple of days for for comments and approval/disapproval. If you feel there is enough support then send it. Ian From W.B.Hill at uea.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 13:25:02 2003 From: W.B.Hill at uea.ac.uk (wbh) Date: Sun Jun 22 13:25:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]toshiba CDT440 install problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com wrote: > I enjoyed my first go at installing woody on laptop with no cdrom drive > yesterday :-) > The floor was littered with hurled floppies by the time I went to bed. Hey - someone else running the same old clunker as me! From what I remember (last install was August last year) I used TomsRTBT to get as far as networking, then sucked debootstrap over (I think you need a sane version of wget, too) Then normal Debian. Seems to be an OK machine but never got the IRDA going, there's a 2.2 driver for those with serious amounts of spare time ;-) TomsRTBT has got me out of a few holes before now... From syd at toufol.com Sun Jun 22 13:28:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sun Jun 22 13:28:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <200306221202.56617.ian@redtommo.com> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <200306221202.56617.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <200306221326.44199.syd@toufol.com> On Sunday 22 Jun 2003 12:02 pm, Ian Bell wrote: > I think we should just get on with it. Post it quick, wait a couple of > days for for comments and approval/disapproval. If you feel there is > enough support then send it. I agree - my experience with ALUG is that if people disagree then you'll hear about it pretty quickly :-) Otherwise just assume that people are nodding their heads and moving on to the next message. That's what I do anyway. I'd say allow a week - ample time for everyone intereted to get round to reading their mail and responding if they wish. Syd From ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jun 22 14:15:02 2003 From: ben at franci5.fsnet.co.uk (Ben Francis) Date: Sun Jun 22 14:15:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <3EF57EC8.4090201@brownowl.com> Message-ID: <001201c338c0$27d51c60$0100a8c0@meep> > > The downside for your school may be cost as in replacing old servers, and > paying my time. It depends on their budget. Very quickly, because of > reliability and lack of hassle, it becomes cost effective, of course, and the > licencing fees are nice! > Thanks for the offer but I'm afraid paying someone to set it up for us is out of the question. Firstly we simply can't afford it and secondly we'd be missing out on the experience ourselves. Any advice would be welcome though. From syd at toufol.com Sun Jun 22 17:08:01 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sun Jun 22 17:08:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <1056192253.8544.1.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> <1056192253.8544.1.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> Message-ID: <200306221706.59331.syd@toufol.com> These are pasted from ALUG posts earlier in the year. Could be useful contacts? >> [Alug] Fwd: Open Source in Education Conference Date: 31/01/2003 7:14 pm From: Paul Tansom To: main at lists.alug.org.uk ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: James Spedding To: schoolforge-discuss at schoolforge.net Sent: 1/30/03 3:31 PM Subject: [school-discuss] Open Source in Education Conference As an introduction to the list my name is James Spedding and I work for Anglia Polytechnic University in the UK. Amongst other things we support schools using open source software and develop solutions to school requirements. << And: >> [Alug]Re: [Peterboro] Introduction of GNU/Linux to Bourne School Date: 22/12/2002 12:32 am From: garry saddington I am at Skegness Grammar School. We have a suite of 34 Linux machines booting from 2 LTSP servers as well as other open source solutions. Soon to expand to around 70 machines. If you are interested, come and take a look. I have just finished AS and A2 teaching using these machines. Linux is more than capable on the desktop! Regards Garry Saddington ICT co -ordinator << Syd From paul at aptanet.com Sun Jun 22 17:57:01 2003 From: paul at aptanet.com (Paul Tansom) Date: Sun Jun 22 17:57:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> <20937e054c.planet14@boyznow.net> <200306201514.14688.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <20030622165436.GE18705@aptanet.com> ** MJ Ray [2003-06-21 11:47]: > BenE wrote: > > As I was saying, in agreement with another post, maybe an ALUG signed > > message to the EDP explaining about linux etc. might be helpful (I also > > offered to write it if no-one else wants to). > > I would almost certainly sign such a message. I need to prepare, but I am > a teacher of post-16 maths who is willing to demonstrations. Of course, > I might have a financial interest in this (see sig) if there's demand > for support. > > I am also an exec member of the UK Association For Free Software (web > site at http://www.affs.org.uk/) and know other people who are willing > to give demos in other parts of the country. (And, from what I've seen, > I may not be the only ALUG member on AFFS exec for much longer. That is > a really wonderful thing.) ** end quote [MJ Ray] Ditto on several of those items: would also be willing to demo, time permitting also could have a financial interest here, I support a number of organisations with Linux, but unfortunately the government/national curriculum/etc. is a significant hurdle in the use of anything non-Microsoft. (again, see sig) also on the AFFS list, although not yet signed up as a member - will do soon Mark :-) of course I have to add that I'm not local, but based in Hampshire (and on the HantsLUG list), but there's no reason there shouldn't others with a local (to me) link on the list. -- Paul Tansom: - contact paul at aptanet.com for more information Internet and Intranet Solutions -- http://www.aptanet.com/ From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Sun Jun 22 19:32:02 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Sun Jun 22 19:32:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]toshiba CDT440 install problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306221929.00526.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Saturday 21 June 2003 10:49, MJ Ray wrote: > Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com wrote: > > The floor was littered with hurled floppies by the time I went to bed. > > Is it just me, or are floppy disks getting worse? > I've never worked out if the media is getting worse or the Drives. Mind you the fact that you can buy branded OEM drives for a little less than a fiver would point to the latter. From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 22 20:53:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 22 20:53:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux event in Norwich next month References: <5ba133054c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: Tarquin Mills wrote: > Peter Naulls member of the ARM-Linux team is going to demonstrate > installing Linux on an Iyonix. Whose meeting is this? Do you want ALUG to help advertise it? Who in Norwich is currently helping to advertise meetings? Can anyone else there give a little time to do so? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 22 20:54:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 22 20:54:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> <1056192253.8544.1.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> Message-ID: Tony Dietrich wrote: > I'll have a suitable demo system set up, using a Knoppix desktop, within > about a week. I'm working on it for another project, but it'll be just > about right for this sort of thing. Do you know about FreEduc? http://www.ofset.org/ Should run on similar systems. From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 22 20:55:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 22 20:55:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> <1056192253.8544.1.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> <1056192253.8544.1.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> <200306221706.59331.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: Syd Hancock wrote: > These are pasted from ALUG posts earlier in the year. > Could be useful contacts? I've been to SGS and will post my notes when I get a round tuit. Well worth a visit if you're interested in real live school GNU/Linux usage. From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 22 21:00:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 22 21:00:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much References: <200306210009.42161.ian@redtommo.com> <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <200306210009.42161.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: BenE wrote: > Secondly, and rather anally, if the letter were to be signed from us lot > then how long should I wait before assuming no-one objects and sending it? > I wouldn't like a letter to be sent in my name (although indirectly I > supose) which I didn't agree with [...] I'd advise against as sending it as "From ALUG" but instead ask people who wish their names to be added to tell you, so it can be "From ALUG Members x y z..." Like many free software projects, ALUG doesn't exist as a formal organisation, and none of the original members has tried to enforce a trademark, so there's not any way to represent the group as a whole. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From ian at redtommo.com Sun Jun 22 22:00:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Sun Jun 22 22:00:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: References: <200306210009.42161.ian@redtommo.com> Message-ID: <200306222200.09027.ian@redtommo.com> On Sunday 22 Jun 2003 9:00 pm, MJ Ray wrote: > BenE wrote: > > Secondly, and rather anally, if the letter were to be signed from us lot > > then how long should I wait before assuming no-one objects and sending > > it? I wouldn't like a letter to be sent in my name (although indirectly I > > supose) which I didn't agree with [...] > > I'd advise against as sending it as "From ALUG" but instead ask people who > wish their names to be added to tell you, so it can be "From ALUG Members > x y z..." Like many free software projects, ALUG doesn't exist as a > formal organisation, and none of the original members has tried to enforce > a trademark, so there's not any way to represent the group as a whole. A sensible precaution. It simultaneously keeps ALUG in the frame without committing it as a (non existent) organisation and should be fine too with dissenters. Ian From neill at entora.co.uk Mon Jun 23 06:00:02 2003 From: neill at entora.co.uk (Neill Newman) Date: Mon Jun 23 06:00:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Weekly IRC reminder Message-ID: This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!) From ali at gwc.org.uk Mon Jun 23 06:54:01 2003 From: ali at gwc.org.uk (Alistair Riddell) Date: Mon Jun 23 06:54:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux 2003 Conference & Tutorials, Edinburgh, 31 July - 3 Aug Message-ID: The 2003 UKUUG Linux technical conference is taking place in Edinburgh, Scotland from the 31 July to the 3 August 2003. The deadline for early-bird rates offering up to 50% off conference fees is 30th June so be sure to book your place before then. Highlights of the conference include over 30 speakers including Jon 'maddog' Hall of Linux International, the new Debian Project Leader, Martin Michlmayr and optional full-day tutorials including "Inside the Linux Kernel" by Stephen Tweedie of Red Hat. For full details see http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2003/ Sponsors: Positive Internet, Perforce, SGI, Astaro -- Alistair Riddell - BOFH From craig at wizball.co.uk Mon Jun 23 11:45:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Mon Jun 23 11:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much In-Reply-To: <001101c3383e$e9e654e0$0100a8c0@meep> References: <200306191802.03847.john.seago@dakings.fsnet.co.uk> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <004401c337d5$c313ead0$0100a8c0@meep> <20030621092713.GE9204@thebowery.co.uk> <001101c3383e$e9e654e0$0100a8c0@meep> Message-ID: <20030623104615.GB3438@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Sat, Jun 21, 2003 at 10:48:03PM +0100, Ben Francis wrote: > If only I could pursuade Mr C to install Knoppix on one of the two new > 4.8Ghz Dell servers we've just bought... mmmmmm NO! ;) Send those dell servers over here please? ;) -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 23 17:24:01 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Mon Jun 23 17:24:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: Neil Marjoram wrote: > Time for positive action? Suggestions anyone. [...] > I'll go for a draft, but my English and spelling are crap - anyone like > to take up this challenge? Not sure if I already said this: I'll cheerfully help, but I'm snowed right now for a few weeks, so will be a little sluggish. From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 23 17:59:01 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Mon Jun 23 17:59:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux event in Norwich next month In-Reply-To: References: <5ba133054c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: Mark Ray wrote: > Tarquin Mills wrote: > > Peter Naulls member of the ARM-Linux team is going to demonstrate > > installing Linux on an Iyonix. > Whose meeting is this? Do you want ALUG to help advertise it? Who in > Norwich is currently helping to advertise meetings? Can anyone else > there give a little time to do so? This is the monthly meeting of RUNG, we would be delighted if ALUG would advertise it. I have accidentally sent the email to MJ Ray, for a second time because ALUG runs this silly policy where Reply-To is not set to the mailing list. Could this please please be changed. -- Tarquin Mills RUNG (RISC OS Users, Norfolk Group) From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 23 20:23:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Mon Jun 23 20:23:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux event in Norwich next month References: <5ba133054c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: Tarquin Mills wrote: > time because ALUG runs this silly policy where Reply-To is not set to > the mailing list. Could this please please be changed. Until you or someone else can show how to do it without creating worse problems than misdirected replies of some silly RISC-OS users who can't control or fix their mail clients, no. Please, anyone reposting should not include a bigger block of junk bitching about Reply-To than their message *unless* they are adding some new info to that debate. -- MJR My Opinion Only From martyn at drake.org.uk Mon Jun 23 21:18:01 2003 From: martyn at drake.org.uk (Martyn Drake) Date: Mon Jun 23 21:18:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux event in Norwich next month In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c339c4$659df5d0$0a01a8c0@martynxp> speccyverse at ntlworld.com wrote on 23 June 2003 17:59: > This is the monthly meeting of RUNG, we would be delighted if ALUG > would advertise it. I have accidentally sent the email to MJ Ray, for > a second time because ALUG runs this silly policy where Reply-To is > not set to the mailing list. Could this please please be changed. Oh, FFS - we've been through all of this as to why the list's Reply-To function is as it is. It's the _default_ and _recommended_ behaviour for Mailman mailing lists. It makes sense - Reply will respond directly to the author, and Reply All will respond to the author AND the rest of the list. Mailman will also deal with any duplicates - if it detects that you're already subscribed to the mailing list but notices a private copy has already been sent it will not email out another copy to you. If I can run many project-oriented Mailman lists at work without any complaints from the members, many of whom are not computer literate, then I fail to see why a LUG produces so many complaints! Regards, Martyn From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 23 21:23:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Mon Jun 23 21:23:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux event in Norwich next month In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5682d195ed04493b05f06aa5a97d36a8@bouncing.localnet> On 2003-06-23 20:42:37 +0100 Chris Walker wrote: > These silly RISC-OS users also happen to be Linux users and you're > going the > right way to piss them off. Equally, by continually reraising the same topic with no new information, they are going the right way to piss me off. I have no problem with them using RISC-OS if they can drive their mail client. I have no problem with them posting any new info about this problem. I'm happy to let this lie until there are more developments, but posting more noise than signal is very annoying. > Is this the same approach you're intending to use > on the schools that might soon need help? No. Is this the same fine line of personal attacks that you're intending to use at an ALUG meeting? > I'd take care as you step down from that high horse. People in glass houses, etc. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 23 23:50:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Mon Jun 23 23:50:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux event in Norwich next month References: <5682d195ed04493b05f06aa5a97d36a8@bouncing.localnet> Message-ID: MJ Ray wrote: > On 2003-06-23 20:42:37 +0100 Chris Walker >> Is this the same approach you're intending to use >> on the schools that might soon need help? > No. Is this the same fine line of personal attacks that you're > intending to use at an ALUG meeting? Someone asked me about this over jabber. Just to explain: these are examples of what some call "wife-beating attacks". They are questions that it's hard to answer without making oneself look bad, similar to asking "When did you stop beating your wife?" If they try to deny the question, then it looks rather like they are still doing it... -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 24 14:01:01 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Tue Jun 24 14:01:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: There's been another front page story on the EDP for those that haven't seen it. The URL is *veerrryy* long so... http://tinyurl.com/f46p or it's on the front page of edp24.co.uk ATM. Basically, the dept. of education is going to bulk buy licences and the money won't come from the school's budget. The cynic in me says that this will be used as an excuse not to increase budgets much in the next few years. Also, todays EDP has an editorial and a letter about Linux (or rather LINUX). Apologies for not getting the letter done earlier, but here goes... Dear Sir, In reply to your frontpage story and editorial from the 24th June. We feel the need to expand on what has been mentioned about Linux and the open source movement. Firstly, Linux is free. Everything, including word processors, professional quality graphics programs and tools for creating computer programs can be downloaded from the internet or obtained for little more than the price of a blank CD. It is created by thousands of dedicated people around the globe, as well as a number of large companies. Also it is more stable, secure and it is much harder for viruses to infect a machine running Linux. More importantly it works well with older computers which would also eliminate the need to constantly buy new computers to keep the latest release of windows working properly. For anybody who is interested, further information and support (including potentially visiting schools and demonstrating Linux) can be obtained from the local Linux user group at www.alug.org.uk. Sincerely, $whoever I reckon it could do with another para but I can't think of anything else that might be appropriate...anyone? ta, BenE From Keith.Watson at Kewill.com Tue Jun 24 16:04:01 2003 From: Keith.Watson at Kewill.com (Keith Watson) Date: Tue Jun 24 16:04:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c33a62$19d659f0$75cca8c0@kst068nt4> > From: BenE on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 3:04 PM > Apologies for not getting the letter done earlier, but here goes... > > Dear Sir, > > In reply to your frontpage story and editorial from the 24th June.... > For anybody who is interested, further information and support (including > potentially visiting schools and demonstrating Linux) can be obtained from > the local Linux user group at www.alug.org.uk. > > Sincerely, > > $whoever > > I reckon it could do with another para but I can't think of > anything else that might be appropriate...anyone? > No I think it's about right as it is. Any longer and people won't read it. If it's printed the editor may well shorten it anyway. So IMO it's best to keep it short, sweet and to the point. :o). I'm happy to add my name to this. (And I have no comments whatsoever to add about the way mailing list replies are set up :o) ) Regards, Keith Watson ____________ Knowledge is learning something every day. Wisdom is letting go of something every day. Zen Saying From mail at johnwoodard.co.uk Tue Jun 24 16:52:02 2003 From: mail at johnwoodard.co.uk (John Woodard) Date: Tue Jun 24 16:52:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <000201c33a62$19d659f0$75cca8c0@kst068nt4> References: <000201c33a62$19d659f0$75cca8c0@kst068nt4> Message-ID: <200306241654.15180.mail@johnwoodard.co.uk> On Tuesday 24 Jun 2003 4:05 pm, Keith Watson wrote: > > From: BenE on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 3:04 PM > > Apologies for not getting the letter done earlier, but here goes... > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > In reply to your frontpage story and editorial from the 24th June.... > I'm happy to add my name to this. Feel free to add my name too. Cheers, BJ From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 24 17:50:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Tue Jun 24 17:50:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20030624135716.GE15358@thebowery.co.uk> References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <20030624135716.GE15358@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Adam Bower wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 03:03:34PM +0100, BenE wrote: > > > > source movement. Firstly, Linux is free. Everything, including word > > I think that defining what is meant by free would make an ideal paragraph, if > you mean that linux is free (as in beer) by that setnance you should perhaps > change it to something along the lines of "Linux is obtainable for free" as it > is a more "correct" thing to write. > Although important, IP freedom might be a bit...I dunno...over the readership's heads? In any case, I'll add the words, 'obtainable for' as it could be misleading... BenE From ctlale at netscape.net Tue Jun 24 20:45:02 2003 From: ctlale at netscape.net (Chris Lale) Date: Tue Jun 24 20:45:02 2003 Subject: [Alug][Fwd: [Fsfe-uk] URGENT (swpat): Graham Watson MEP needs to hear from scared SMEs] Message-ID: <3EF8AB74.9040407@netscape.net> Does anyone work for a SME (small/medium enterprise) and have a concern about the software patent threat to free/open source software? If so, please read this message - forwarded from the Free Software Foundation Europe (UK) list - and email Graham Watson MEP (e-mail: gwatson at europarl.eu.int) urgently. Many thanks, Chris. ----- Forwarded message from James Heald ----- From: James Heald I've had a message from Erik Josefson, who's on the spot in Brussels trying to head off the software patents directive, can we urgently find SMEs who are worried about software patents to contact Graham Watson MEP. > He needs to be called by SMEs who say > > 1. we are n employees (n as large as possible) > > 2. we have a turnover of XX EUR. > > 3. we are damaged/threatened by patents. It is looking increasingly likely that the full plenary debate in the parliament is going to take place in the session starting 30 June -- ie only ten days away. This gives very little time to educate MEPs, and next to no time to file amendments. It looks as though there is no chance of any kind of exemption for Open Source. The question is whether there are going to be any effective limits placed on patentability. If the plenary goes the same way as Tuesday's committee vote, the answer will be no. Graham Watson is the group leader of the European Liberals, who will be having a group meeting very soon to work out how they are going to vote, and which amendments they need to put down. Watson's contact details are: Office PHS 55 C7, European Parliament, Rue Wiertz, B-1047 Brussels, Belgium Tel. 00 32 2 284 7626 Fax. 00 32 2 284 9626 e-mail: gwatson at europarl.eu.int It may be worth cc'ing any emails to the Lib Dem's UK IT spokesman, Richard Allan MP (allanr at parliament.uk) Basically unless we can establish that there is really a depth of concern about this issue, among real businesses, the McCarthy text will go through. Best regards, James Heald. Unfortunately I'm going to be away from the net for the next couple of days, but Alex Macfie is either in or just back from Brussels, if you need to know the latest score. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | ___ Chris Lale | | / \ | | | <_/ My PC runs Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (http://www.debian.org). | | \ Robust, secure and free operating system + applications. | | `- | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From plexer at plexer.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 25 11:21:01 2003 From: plexer at plexer.freeserve.co.uk (Ben Norcutt) Date: Wed Jun 25 11:21:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. Message-ID: <001001c33b02$33959400$e2e486d9@plextech02> The bit that worries me about this story actually working in IT in a School is that it doesn't say that the Government will bulk buy licences it says the Government will bulk buy computer equipment with the licences to save Schools the licence costs. The Government bulk buying IT equipment is a joke. I also fail to see where they get this ?70 from ours is ?36.63 and even if we added the couple of titles not on our agreement this certainly wouldn't more than double the price. Cheers, Ben Norcutt From ian at redtommo.com Wed Jun 25 11:56:02 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Wed Jun 25 11:56:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306251156.34378.ian@redtommo.com> On Tuesday 24 Jun 2003 3:03 pm, BenE wrote: > > Apologies for not getting the letter done earlier, but here goes... > > Dear Sir, > > In reply to your frontpage story and editorial from the 24th June. We feel > the need to expand on what has been mentioned about Linux and the open > source movement. Firstly, Linux is free. Everything, including word > processors, professional quality graphics programs and tools for creating > computer programs can be downloaded from the internet or obtained for > little more than the price of a blank CD. It is created by thousands of > dedicated people around the globe, as well as a number of large companies. > Also it is more stable, secure and it is much harder for viruses to infect > a machine running Linux. More importantly it works well with older > computers which would also eliminate the need to constantly buy new > computers to keep the latest release of windows working properly. > > For anybody who is interested, further information and support (including > potentially visiting schools and demonstrating Linux) can be obtained from > the local Linux user group at www.alug.org.uk. > > Sincerely, > > $whoever Here's my twopennyworth. I suggest make the first two sentences into one with a comma after June. Perhaps change Linux is free to Linux is free to Linux can be obtained for little or no cost. Change 'It is created by' to Linux is created by. Change 'More importantly it works well' to More importantly Linux works well (on the basis that the more times the word Linux is mentioned the more chance it has of sticking in other peoples minds). With or without these changes I am haapy to append my name to the letter. Ian From Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com Wed Jun 25 13:55:02 2003 From: Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com (Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com) Date: Wed Jun 25 13:55:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. Message-ID: >On Tuesday 24 Jun 2003 3:03 pm, BenE wrote: > >> >> Apologies for not getting the letter done earlier, but here goes... >> >> Dear Sir, >> >> In reply to your frontpage story and editorial from the 24th June. We feel >> the need to expand on what has been mentioned about Linux and the open >> source movement. Firstly, Linux is free. Everything, including word >> processors, professional quality graphics programs and tools for creating >> computer programs can be downloaded from the internet or obtained for >> little more than the price of a blank CD. It is created by thousands of >> dedicated people around the globe, as well as a number of large companies. >> Also it is more stable, secure and it is much harder for viruses to infect >> a machine running Linux. More importantly it works well with older >> computers which would also eliminate the need to constantly buy new >> computers to keep the latest release of windows working properly. >> >> For anybody who is interested, further information and support (including >> potentially visiting schools and demonstrating Linux) can be obtained from >> the local Linux user group at www.alug.org.uk. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> $whoever > >Here's my twopennyworth. I suggest make the first two sentences into one with >a comma after June. Perhaps change Linux is free to Linux is free to Linux >can be obtained for little or no cost. Change 'It is created by' to Linux is >created by. Change 'More importantly it works well' to More importantly >Linux works well (on the basis that the more times the word Linux is >mentioned the more chance it has of sticking in other peoples minds). With >or without these changes I am haapy to append my name to the letter. > >Ian How about "It is also" rather than "Also it is", or even "A machine running Linux is more stable, more secure and much less likely to become infected with a virus"? And maybe clarify the potentially visiting schools bit with "....further information and support can be obtained from the local Linux User Group at www.alug.org,.uk, from which there are willing volunteers prepared to visit schools and give a demonstration of Linux". Please add my name, do! Jen From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 25 18:33:02 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Wed Jun 25 18:33:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: > $whoever Please add Tarquin Mills (Reboot Movement,RUNG,ACCUS) > I reckon it could do with another para but I can't think of anything > else that might be appropriate...anyone? -- Tarquin Mills RUNG (RISC OS Users, Norfolk Group) From ian at redtommo.com Wed Jun 25 20:37:26 2003 From: ian at redtommo.com (Ian Bell) Date: Wed Jun 25 20:37:26 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <001001c33b02$33959400$e2e486d9@plextech02> References: <001001c33b02$33959400$e2e486d9@plextech02> Message-ID: <200306252037.36400.ian@redtommo.com> On Wednesday 25 Jun 2003 11:11 am, Ben Norcutt wrote: > The bit that worries me about this story actually working in IT in a School > is that it doesn't say that the Government will bulk buy licences it says > the Government will bulk buy computer equipment with the licences to save > Schools the licence costs. > > The Government bulk buying IT equipment is a joke. I also fail to see where > they get this ?70 from ours is ?36.63 and even if we added the couple of > titles not on our agreement this certainly wouldn't more than double the > price. > I was confused too by what the government has actually 'negotiated'. it is not clear which M$ licences are covered, is it just the OS or does it cover the core apps like office. And what about all the other non free software that schools use like the (mandatory??) SIMS for admin plus the various teaching progs? Presumably schools still have to by the latest versions of these. As for the idea of central government buying PCs at a discount - well the mind simply boggles. Ian From abower at thebowery.co.uk Wed Jun 25 21:27:02 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Wed Jun 25 21:27:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <001001c33b02$33959400$e2e486d9@plextech02> References: <001001c33b02$33959400$e2e486d9@plextech02> Message-ID: <20030625202604.GH15358@thebowery.co.uk> On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 11:11:50AM +0100, Ben Norcutt wrote: > > The Government bulk buying IT equipment is a joke. I also fail to see where > they get this ?70 from ours is ?36.63 and even if we added the couple of > titles not on our agreement this certainly wouldn't more than double the > price. I don't know the details but I thought that many schools pay once for the OS with the machine and then again under the MSSA because they need a license for each computer in the school? Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com Thu Jun 26 00:26:01 2003 From: wayne.stallwood at btinternet.com (Wayne Stallwood) Date: Thu Jun 26 00:26:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20030625202604.GH15358@thebowery.co.uk> References: <001001c33b02$33959400$e2e486d9@plextech02> <20030625202604.GH15358@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <200306260022.18811.wayne.stallwood@btinternet.com> On Wednesday 25 June 2003 20:26, Adam Bower wrote: > I don't know the details but I thought that many schools pay once for the > OS with the machine and then again under the MSSA because they need a > license for each computer in the school? and lets not forget that as well as buying the Desktop OS and any Client Access Licences that are required those schools unfortunate enough to be involved with the RM connect world of pain also have to buy a Client license for the RM software. This is not an issue when replacing old machines but any RM based network I have seen has a number of licensed machines and if you exceed number that you have to purchase more RM licences. From td at transoft.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 26 07:38:01 2003 From: td at transoft.demon.co.uk (Tony Dietrich) Date: Thu Jun 26 07:38:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1056609433.1257.7.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> Please add my name to the letter, if I'm not too late :-) -- Tony Dietrich Transoft Computer Consultants On Wed, 2003-06-25 at 18:33, Tarquin Mills wrote: > > $whoever > Please add Tarquin Mills (Reboot Movement,RUNG,ACCUS) > > I reckon it could do with another para but I can't think of anything > > else that might be appropriate...anyone? From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 26 10:23:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 26 10:23:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <1056609433.1257.7.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <1056609433.1257.7.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> Message-ID: <20030626092441.GA3719@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 07:37:13AM +0100, Tony Dietrich wrote: > Please add my name to the letter, if I'm not too late :-) Throw me in too.. sorry for not replying earlier! -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From abower at thebowery.co.uk Thu Jun 26 10:39:01 2003 From: abower at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Thu Jun 26 10:39:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20030626092441.GA3719@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <1056609433.1257.7.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> <20030626092441.GA3719@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030626093847.GJ15358@thebowery.co.uk> On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 10:24:41AM +0100, Craig wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 07:37:13AM +0100, Tony Dietrich wrote: > > Please add my name to the letter, if I'm not too late :-) > > Throw me in too.. sorry for not replying earlier! Yeah, ditto for me...! Adam -- jabberid = quinophex at jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From laurie at brownowl.com Thu Jun 26 11:19:01 2003 From: laurie at brownowl.com (Laurie Brown) Date: Thu Jun 26 11:19:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <20030626093847.GJ15358@thebowery.co.uk> References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <1056609433.1257.7.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> <20030626092441.GA3719@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030626093847.GJ15358@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <3EFAC48B.6010809@brownowl.com> Adam Bower wrote: > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 10:24:41AM +0100, Craig wrote: > >>On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 07:37:13AM +0100, Tony Dietrich wrote: >> >>>Please add my name to the letter, if I'm not too late :-) >> >>Throw me in too.. sorry for not replying earlier! > > > Yeah, ditto for me...! Me too! -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurie Brown laurie at brownowl.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 12:21:02 2003 From: n.marjoram at vam.ac.uk (Neil Marjoram) Date: Thu Jun 26 12:21:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <3EFAC48B.6010809@brownowl.com> References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <1056609433.1257.7.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> <20030626092441.GA3719@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030626093847.GJ15358@thebowery.co.uk> <3EFAC48B.6010809@brownowl.com> Message-ID: <1056626407.3561.0.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> And me! On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 11:01, Laurie Brown wrote: > Adam Bower wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 10:24:41AM +0100, Craig wrote: > > > >>On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 07:37:13AM +0100, Tony Dietrich wrote: > >> > >>>Please add my name to the letter, if I'm not too late :-) > >> > >>Throw me in too.. sorry for not replying earlier! > > > > > > Yeah, ditto for me...! > > > > Me too! > > -- Neil Marjoram. Unix System Manager, Victoria and Albert Museum, Cromwell Road, London. 020 7942 2342 From craig at wizball.co.uk Thu Jun 26 13:18:02 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Thu Jun 26 13:18:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. In-Reply-To: <1056626407.3561.0.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> References: <1056028808.2434.39.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> <1056609433.1257.7.camel@primary.transcc.co.uk> <20030626092441.GA3719@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> <20030626093847.GJ15358@thebowery.co.uk> <3EFAC48B.6010809@brownowl.com> <1056626407.3561.0.camel@preston.int.vam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20030626121924.GB3719@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 12:20:07PM +0100, Neil Marjoram wrote: > And me! me, me, me *finish cloning* ...... me too -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From speccyverse at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 26 23:46:02 2003 From: speccyverse at ntlworld.com (Tarquin Mills) Date: Thu Jun 26 23:46:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College In-Reply-To: <002701c33c04$4e08c840$0200000a@DEREK> References: <111849084c.planet14@boyznow.net> <002701c33c04$4e08c840$0200000a@DEREK> Message-ID: <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> Derek wrote: > Hi Tarquin [snip] > On another issue: > > Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should > switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save > money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't > know much about it. > > If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it. [snip] Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give them. Thanks in advance. -- Tarquin Mills Reboot Movement (An Anti-Wintel Campaign) http://www.planet14.sonow4u.co.uk/comp/reboot/ From mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 27 00:09:02 2003 From: mail at psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk (BenE) Date: Fri Jun 27 00:09:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College In-Reply-To: <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> References: <111849084c.planet14@boyznow.net> <002701c33c04$4e08c840$0200000a@DEREK> <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Tarquin Mills wrote: > Derek wrote: > > Hi Tarquin > [snip] > > On another issue: > > > > Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should > > switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save > > money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't > > know much about it. > > > > If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it. > [snip] > Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give them. > Thanks in advance. > -- 'funding crisis' If it's as bad as that, then I would say open source may not be the answer. I see any switch to open source as providing long term benefits, not short term, as the phrase 'funding crisis' implies would be needed. The potential hardware upgrades (due to incompatibilities), training for the existing sysadmins (assuming no non-windows experience currently) or the hiring of new sysops (plus redundancy for the old ones) would very likely be higher than the cost savings in the short term. That's not what you asked for, but the chip Bill Gates installed in my head last night whilst asleep is doing it's job *very* well ;) BenE From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 27 01:26:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 27 01:26:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College References: <111849084c.planet14@boyznow.net> <002701c33c04$4e08c840$0200000a@DEREK> <002701c33c04$4e08c840$0200000a@DEREK> <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: Tarquin Mills wrote: [...] >> Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should >> switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save >> money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't >> know much about it. How many do you want for free software? Cost -- It's claimed that free software has a lower total cost of ownership. http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html This might be explained by the possibility of a free market in support, which does not happen with most single-provider proprietary software. Control -- Students can take copies of free software to use on their own systems, without the college having to do expensive licence activities or make extra payments. Study -- Free software licences allow students to study how it works, not just learn to use the software. Even on using the software, the ability for others to study the software leads to a healthy collaboration on manuals and similar works, as well as a more open market for published books. Consistency -- the freedom to study and try modifications is often more consistent with common ideals of education. Repair -- If a piece of free software doesn't work the way that the college wants it to, it can be changed by college staff or an independent support company. Community -- there are active free software communities in the college's local area. They can be a sounding-board, expert demonstrators, possible source of support (both zero-cost and paid). Opportunities -- the college could become a training provider for the Linux Professional Institute qualifications, or run their own independent courses, similar to those run at Bromley, for example. Longevity -- Because it is possible to avoid vendor lock-in, it is possible to defer forced major upgrades during peak times. Also, as long as the software is sufficiently important, it can be used because free software never has termination clauses. I was saying some of these rather a lot at Birmingham this week... more on that later. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 27 09:10:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 27 09:10:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College References: <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> <111849084c.planet14@boyznow.net> <002701c33c04$4e08c840$0200000a@DEREK> <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: BenE wrote: > If it's as bad as that, then I would say open source may not be the > answer. I see any switch to open source as providing long term benefits, > not short term, as the phrase 'funding crisis' implies would be needed. Sure there are some possible problems, but in the forseeable, FE funding is not going to improve, so it is better to take the hit now and start investing in computing rather than continue throwing money into the proprietary black holes. Some of the migration costs can be eased by moving over in stages, which is how schools I know about are doing it. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From craig at wizball.co.uk Fri Jun 27 09:53:01 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Fri Jun 27 09:53:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College In-Reply-To: <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> References: <111849084c.planet14@boyznow.net> <002701c33c04$4e08c840$0200000a@DEREK> <2824d4084c.planet14@boyznow.net> Message-ID: <20030627085442.GA3389@cablaptop> On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:45:51PM +0100, Tarquin Mills wrote: > > Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should > > switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save > > money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't > > know much about it. > > > > If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it. > [snip] > Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give them. > Thanks in advance. They are running _one_ router there to be honest. I know this for a fact since I know a lot of people up there. I even offered to work for free to help improve some routing issues etc etc. But they turned me down anyway. Forget it. You will _not_ get Linux implemented there because a) Current system in place is functioning okay..... Okay, that was a little white lie.. I do recall that the mail server gets rebooted almost daily sometimes. It's Microsoft Exchange! b) They constantly spend money on _NEW_ routers etc. Seems like their system life cycle is like every 6 months. They just basically sell off their "old" computers and then just buy newer equipments. Cash crisis? Probably. c) They know that Microsoft peeps such as Sys admins there are cheaper to hire where *nix are demands higher pay. Fair enough but with *nix people, you can be ensured that the network will be looked after 100%. d) Windows licenses. Yes. We know about this already. e) Students... I am sure they are finding out about *nix slowly but then again, they just seems clueless when it comes to technoogy. Oh well. I could go on however, they shouldn't really spend too much on newer technologies all the time. And most of all, their network gets hacked now and again (I even done it during my college years....). You could speak to John Pollit (I think that is his name correctly) but as far as I know. He won't look into it at all. -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fri Jun 27 10:30:03 2003 From: Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk ( (Ted Harding)) Date: Fri Jun 27 10:30:03 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27-Jun-03 BenE wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Tarquin Mills wrote: >> Derek wrote: >> > Hi Tarquin >> [snip] >> > On another issue: >> > >> > Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College >> > should switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at >> > work and need to save money, so I've suggested we do this to the >> > principle, but I really don't know much about it. >> > >> > If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it. >> [snip] >> Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give >> them. >> Thanks in advance. >> -- > > 'funding crisis' > > If it's as bad as that, then I would say open source may not be the > answer. I see any switch to open source as providing long term > benefits, not short term, as the phrase 'funding crisis' implies would > be needed. > The potential hardware upgrades (due to incompatibilities), training > for the existing sysadmins (assuming no non-windows experience > currently) or the hiring of new sysops (plus redundancy for the old > ones) would very likely be higher than the cost savings in the short > term. > > That's not what you asked for, but the chip Bill Gates installed in my > head last night whilst asleep is doing it's job *very* well ;) My guess is it's probably even worse. One thing it might be useful to know, if we're to say anything sensible, is: What is the background to the email from "Derek" to Tarquin which was forwarded to the list? CCN relies heavily on providing vocational courses. In so far as these have an IT aspect, there's no significant market for CCN in basing them on Open Source software. They will have to teach people how to use MS products, and if they don't offer that then they won't get students and their funding crisis will get worse. Like many such colleges, their most profitable students will be recruited from outside the EC. Just take a look at the list of their courses which are computing related: http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cloud.asp?page=4&extra=3 How many of these can sensibly, in the context of typical student demand, be based on anything except MS software? There may be scope at CCN for very marginal savings on servers and IT infrastructure by migrating to Open Source (Linux servers and the like), but the bulk of their needs for computing resources will have to remain on MS. Even staff intranet resources (emails, e-conferences, "Exchange" stuff, document exchange, on-line diaries, you name it ... ) will have to stay as they are unless there is a global staff re-education program and my (I fear very realistic) judgement is that this is a complete non-starter in an institution like CCN. Meaningful savings would not be achieved by migrating to Open Source and, as BenE wrote, the costs of any actual transition would be greater than the short term savings and indeed might never be recouped. Sorry to be pessimistic! However, as I say, if we could know a bit more about what led up to the email from "Derek" then it might be possible to offer more positive realistic advice. Best wishes to all, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 27-Jun-03 Time: 10:25:10 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ From Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fri Jun 27 10:55:02 2003 From: Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk ( (Ted Harding)) Date: Fri Jun 27 10:55:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27-Jun-03 Ted Harding wrote: > > Just take a look at the list of their courses which are computing > related: > > http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cloud.asp?page=4&extra=3 > > How many of these can sensibly, in the context of typical student > demand, be based on anything except MS software? Follow-up: Interestingly, on their web page for the Computing and Information Systems Dept, you can find mention of Linux and Unix: http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cis/index.htm So it seems that it's there if needed. But I doubt that detracts from my earlier point that the overwhelming requirement is for software that mainly runs on Windows. Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 27-Jun-03 Time: 10:50:14 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ From craig at wizball.co.uk Fri Jun 27 12:35:32 2003 From: craig at wizball.co.uk (Craig) Date: Fri Jun 27 12:35:32 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030627113625.GA3451@cablaptop.mth.uea.ac.uk> On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 10:50:14AM +0100, Ted Harding wrote: > http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cis/index.htm > > So it seems that it's there if needed. But I doubt that detracts from > my earlier point that the overwhelming requirement is for software > that mainly runs on Windows. During my time at city college.. I do recall that there were around 12 PCs to be used for students to install anything (Novell/*nix) on. That's it. -- (o_ - Craig Butcher //\ - IT Technician / Unix Support MTH/ENV @ UEA V_/_ - http://www.wizball.co.uk From Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com Fri Jun 27 14:30:02 2003 From: Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com (Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com) Date: Fri Jun 27 14:30:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]toshiba CDT440 install problem Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 Jenny_Hopkins at toby-churchill.com wrote: > >> I enjoyed my first go at installing woody on laptop with no cdrom drive >> yesterday :-) >> The floor was littered with hurled floppies by the time I went to bed. > Then wbh replied: >Hey - someone else running the same old clunker as me! From what I >remember (last install was August last year) I used TomsRTBT to get as far >as networking, then sucked debootstrap over (I think you need a sane >version of wget, too) Then normal Debian. Seems to be an OK machine but >never got the IRDA going, there's a 2.2 driver for those with serious >amounts of spare time ;-) TomsRTBT has got me out of a few holes before >now... For the record: had another go at this last night, with success this time. Should anyone else wish to try it, my difficulty was coming at the configuring pcmcia stage. After mounting the root filesystem onto the hard drive, I then ran the "configure pcmcia" stage, edited my pcmcia card and driver required into the pcmcia config file using the minimal console on tty2. Then I ran the "configure the network" stage. Although the pcmcia card was configured, it couldn't be activated, so at this stage I went back to tty2 and did a bit of fettling there... I had to create an empty file called "pcmcia-scheme" in /var/lib/misc or some suchplace, as it was grumbling about that. ifconfig showed no eth0 and none of my usual eth0-persuading runes would work, but I eventually found I needed "ifconfig start eth0 192.168.1.111". I could then go back to the installing procedure on the first terminal and install the base system over a network link. :-) I tried downloading TomsRTBT, by the way - thanks for the pointer. Alas, though, when I got to 99% I was told my floppy was full. Now to find out what performance I'll get with a desktop on the machine - it is a present for my dad, he's 73 and has never used a computer, so i thought, well why start with anything other than debian :-) Jenny From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Fri Jun 27 15:20:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Fri Jun 27 15:20:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College References: Message-ID: (Ted Harding) <> wrote: > CCN relies heavily on providing vocational courses. In so far as these > have an IT aspect, there's no significant market for CCN in basing them > on Open Source software. They will have to teach people how to use MS > products, and if they don't offer that then they won't get students > and their funding crisis will get worse. Like many such colleges, > their most profitable students will be recruited from outside the EC. This sort of tail wagging the dog that IT education is often accused of. The ultimate aim of colleges (and FE colleges in particular) is to produce a skilled workforce. So, instead of teaching people how to use specific electrical testing gear, you teach them about electricity and then apply it to specific test gear, which is then supplemented by their work experience. The test gear they use at work may or may not be what the college has, but it often doesn't matter, as long as they are skilled enough to learn it reasonably quickly. Contrast that with current computing and IT education. Some of it is actually independent of particular software, and necessarily so for markets where MS Office et al are not available in the language of instruction, but not yet in England. If student or employer demand dictates -- rather than informs -- course provision, I think that is a disaster that will set us back years. NB sig etc, as ever. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fri Jun 27 16:35:02 2003 From: Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk ( (Ted Harding)) Date: Fri Jun 27 16:35:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27-Jun-03 MJ Ray wrote: > Contrast that with current computing and IT education. Some of it is > actually independent of particular software, and necessarily so for > markets where MS Office et al are not available in the language of > instruction, but not yet in England. > > If student or employer demand dictates -- rather than informs -- course > provision, I think that is a disaster that will set us back years. I couldn't agree more with the principle of this, and regrettably feel convinced that we are already seriously set back. Once upon a time, all you had available on the computer was some general-purpose language (even BASIC!), and getting a job done on the machine involved understanding the task, learning the capabilities of the language, and creating a program which performed the task. People who came out of that stable could get things done! It was amazing what very many people -- in categories which nowadays would fall firmly into "computer-illiterate" -- could achieve under their own steam. Nowadays, all you learn is that for Task A you use Software X (because you can, though you're led to believe that you have to), and by the way you're awfully confused about all these icons so this is what you have to click on. Nevertheless, as a result of the whole history of educational "progress" over the last decade or so, colleges are now obsessed with filling their student places; and this is driven by the less savoury aspects of "Quality Control" and "Assessment Exercises". If they don't get students, they don't get money, and they're in trouble. This snake eats its own tail, as you can imagine. Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 27-Jun-03 Time: 15:43:10 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------ From ben at plextech.co.uk Fri Jun 27 21:37:02 2003 From: ben at plextech.co.uk (Ben Norcutt) Date: Fri Jun 27 21:37:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much. (Ben Norcutt) References: <20030626052512.29145.56723.Mailman@terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk> Message-ID: <000c01c33ceb$eaa21de0$f67c86d9@plextech02> Under the MSA agreement you choose the components you wish to licence when you sign a master agreement this master agreement stays in place and then you order upgrades/renewals every 12 or 36 months. Most Schools in Norfolk use Phoenix from Pearsons as their Schools database. Some are using SIMS thne there are other apps like Nova-T and cash accounts for the timetabling and accounting sides respectively as well as all the other software we use so yes all this has to be licensed as well. Under the MSA all machines of pentium class and above have to be licensed you have no choice to stay on the right side of Microsoft and it is this point under which they are currently being investiagted by the OFT about. Every PC has to have a windows licence and on top of that you then have to buy an MSA licence giving you upgrade rights on the OS and any other apps you choose from the list. Cheers, Ben From syd at toufol.com Sat Jun 28 09:17:01 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Sat Jun 28 09:17:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]file permissions and /usr Message-ID: <200306280915.42105.syd@toufol.com> I created as root a directory in /usr and used chmod to set permissions. After a reboot the permissions had reverted to what they were before the chmod command. This is probably some basic bit of info that I lack but is this usual? I was very surprised when it happened. Using Mandrake 9.1, mkdir and chmod run from the command line. TIA Syd From ihiggins at ukonline.co.uk Sat Jun 28 19:53:01 2003 From: ihiggins at ukonline.co.uk (Ian Higgins) Date: Sat Jun 28 19:53:01 2003 Subject: [Alug]New member - Hi all! Message-ID: <000901c33da6$723b72f0$b91a2ad9@Voyager> Hi everyone! Just thought, as I am new to this list, that I would introduce myself and say why I am interested in Linux. My name is Ian Higgins, I am 30 years old and I come from East Dereham in Norfolk. I have been using Windows XP for just over a year now. Basically I got sick of the lack of speed that XP "produces." I have a P4 2.5ghz - Radeon 9700 Pro - 512mb ram - 120 gb HD - and XP is so slow on it - I feel that a modern OS should be much faster than this. Especially given the speed of modern hardware. I also got tired of the constant maintenance that Windows requires to keep it running at anything like a "decent" speed - defragging the hard drive, cleaning out the registry, disabling unused services etc. I feel you shouldn`t have to do this anymore - it is so antiquated. I used an Amiga for 9 years previously and I never had to do any maintenance on that. :-) I decided to give Linux a go - RedHat9 to be precise - a little while ago and haven`t looked back. Once I can get Linux online then XP will be ditched for good - had a few problems with my adsl modem. Linux is such a responsive and beautifully written OS - it reminds me alot of Workbench on my old A1200. Unlike Windows it lets you work the way that you want to - plus it looks so much better to boot. Anyway, that`s all for now. Hope to hear from you all soon. Kind regards, Ian Higgins. From lists at ashleyhowes.com Sun Jun 29 07:53:02 2003 From: lists at ashleyhowes.com (Ashley) Date: Sun Jun 29 07:53:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]New member - Hi all! References: <000901c33da6$723b72f0$b91a2ad9@Voyager> Message-ID: <000c01c33e0b$0e205c30$6501a8c0@xplaptop> > Just thought, as I am new to this list, that I would introduce myself and > say why I am interested in Linux. My name is Ian Higgins, I am 30 > years old and I come from East Dereham in Norfolk. I have been using Windows > XP for just over a year now. Basically I got sick of the lack of speed that > XP "produces." I have a P4 2.5ghz - Radeon 9700 Pro - 512mb ram - 120 gb > HD - and XP is so slow on it - I feel that a modern OS should be much faster > than this. Especially given the speed of modern hardware. I also got tired > of the constant maintenance that Windows requires to keep it running at > anything like a "decent" speed - defragging the hard drive, cleaning out the > registry, disabling unused services etc. I feel you shouldn`t have to do > this anymore - it is so antiquated. I used an Amiga for 9 years previously > and I never had to do any maintenance on that. :-) I decided to give Linux a > go - RedHat9 to be precise - a little while ago and haven`t looked back. > Once I can get Linux online then XP will be ditched for good - had a few > problems with my adsl modem. Linux is such a responsive and beautifully > written OS - it reminds me alot of Workbench on my old A1200. Unlike Windows > it lets you work the way that you want to - plus it looks so much better to > boot. Welcome. I used to have an Amiga too several years ago. You could connect any combination of add-ons to that machine and it would handle it. My old A500 used to have 2 RAM expansions, a video digitiser and a hard drive all connect to a SINGLE expansion slot. -- Ashley T. Howes PhD http://www.ashleyhowes.com "when all the animals of this world are gone, man will die of loneliness" From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 29 21:44:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 29 21:44:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Linux at City College References: Message-ID: (Ted Harding) <> wrote: > I couldn't agree more with the principle of this, and regrettably feel > convinced that we are already seriously set back. Probably true, but we have to build from where we are instead of wish for where we could be now. Accepting the current "snake" as the reality of education possibly isn't a healthy thing. You never know, there might be some IT users there who still know what they could be doing. If we don't try, we'll just end up crying into our beer. Very much "amen" to the Quality Control part. I get to fill out some forms this week, taking a whole day to do them :-/ -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Sun Jun 29 21:46:02 2003 From: markj at cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Date: Sun Jun 29 21:46:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]file permissions and /usr References: <200306280915.42105.syd@toufol.com> Message-ID: Syd Hancock wrote: > [...] After a reboot the permissions had reverted to what > they were before the chmod command. This is probably some basic bit > of info that I lack but is this usual? I was very surprised when it > happened. Doesn't sound normal to me. Were errors shown on reboot (like discs not unmounting cleanly), does anyone know if there are any fun processes on Mandrake that "fix" permissions in /usr and can you reproduce this? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef at jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult." From neill at entora.co.uk Mon Jun 30 06:01:02 2003 From: neill at entora.co.uk (Neill Newman) Date: Mon Jun 30 06:01:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]Weekly IRC reminder Message-ID: This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!) From dan.hatton at btinternet.com Mon Jun 30 18:20:02 2003 From: dan.hatton at btinternet.com (Dan Hatton) Date: Mon Jun 30 18:20:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]file permissions and /usr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, MJ Ray wrote: > Syd Hancock wrote: > > [...] After a reboot the permissions had reverted to what > > they were before the chmod command. This is probably some basic bit > > of info that I lack but is this usual? I was very surprised when it > > happened. > > Doesn't sound normal to me. Were errors shown on reboot (like discs > not unmounting cleanly), does anyone know if there are any fun processes > on Mandrake that "fix" permissions in /usr and can you reproduce this? To these questions, add: Is /usr on a file-system type that doesn't support changing permissions, such as vfat? -- Dan Hatton From syd at toufol.com Mon Jun 30 21:55:02 2003 From: syd at toufol.com (Syd Hancock) Date: Mon Jun 30 21:55:02 2003 Subject: [Alug]file permissions and /usr In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200306302154.43362.syd@toufol.com> [replies snipped] Thanks to all who responded. No idea what was happening but I can't reproduce it this evening although I could a couple of days ago. Fingers crossed that all is now well ... :-) Syd