Derek wrote:
Hi Tarquin
[snip]
On another issue:
Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't know much about it.
If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it.
[snip] Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give them. Thanks in advance.
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Tarquin Mills wrote:
Derek wrote:
Hi Tarquin
[snip]
On another issue:
Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't know much about it.
If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it.
[snip] Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give them. Thanks in advance. --
'funding crisis'
If it's as bad as that, then I would say open source may not be the answer. I see any switch to open source as providing long term benefits, not short term, as the phrase 'funding crisis' implies would be needed. The potential hardware upgrades (due to incompatibilities), training for the existing sysadmins (assuming no non-windows experience currently) or the hiring of new sysops (plus redundancy for the old ones) would very likely be higher than the cost savings in the short term.
That's not what you asked for, but the chip Bill Gates installed in my head last night whilst asleep is doing it's job *very* well ;)
BenE
BenE mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
If it's as bad as that, then I would say open source may not be the answer. I see any switch to open source as providing long term benefits, not short term, as the phrase 'funding crisis' implies would be needed.
Sure there are some possible problems, but in the forseeable, FE funding is not going to improve, so it is better to take the hit now and start investing in computing rather than continue throwing money into the proprietary black holes. Some of the migration costs can be eased by moving over in stages, which is how schools I know about are doing it.
On 27-Jun-03 BenE wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Tarquin Mills wrote:
Derek wrote:
Hi Tarquin
[snip]
On another issue:
Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't know much about it.
If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it.
[snip] Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give them. Thanks in advance. --
'funding crisis'
If it's as bad as that, then I would say open source may not be the answer. I see any switch to open source as providing long term benefits, not short term, as the phrase 'funding crisis' implies would be needed. The potential hardware upgrades (due to incompatibilities), training for the existing sysadmins (assuming no non-windows experience currently) or the hiring of new sysops (plus redundancy for the old ones) would very likely be higher than the cost savings in the short term.
That's not what you asked for, but the chip Bill Gates installed in my head last night whilst asleep is doing it's job *very* well ;)
My guess is it's probably even worse.
One thing it might be useful to know, if we're to say anything sensible, is: What is the background to the email from "Derek" to Tarquin which was forwarded to the list?
CCN relies heavily on providing vocational courses. In so far as these have an IT aspect, there's no significant market for CCN in basing them on Open Source software. They will have to teach people how to use MS products, and if they don't offer that then they won't get students and their funding crisis will get worse. Like many such colleges, their most profitable students will be recruited from outside the EC.
Just take a look at the list of their courses which are computing related:
http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cloud.asp?page=4&extra=3
How many of these can sensibly, in the context of typical student demand, be based on anything except MS software?
There may be scope at CCN for very marginal savings on servers and IT infrastructure by migrating to Open Source (Linux servers and the like), but the bulk of their needs for computing resources will have to remain on MS. Even staff intranet resources (emails, e-conferences, "Exchange" stuff, document exchange, on-line diaries, you name it ... ) will have to stay as they are unless there is a global staff re-education program and my (I fear very realistic) judgement is that this is a complete non-starter in an institution like CCN. Meaningful savings would not be achieved by migrating to Open Source and, as BenE wrote, the costs of any actual transition would be greater than the short term savings and indeed might never be recouped.
Sorry to be pessimistic! However, as I say, if we could know a bit more about what led up to the email from "Derek" then it might be possible to offer more positive realistic advice.
Best wishes to all, Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 27-Jun-03 Time: 10:25:10 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On 27-Jun-03 Ted Harding wrote:
Just take a look at the list of their courses which are computing related:
http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cloud.asp?page=4&extra=3
How many of these can sensibly, in the context of typical student demand, be based on anything except MS software?
Follow-up: Interestingly, on their web page for the Computing and Information Systems Dept, you can find mention of Linux and Unix:
http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cis/index.htm
So it seems that it's there if needed. But I doubt that detracts from my earlier point that the overwhelming requirement is for software that mainly runs on Windows.
Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 27-Jun-03 Time: 10:50:14 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 10:50:14AM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
http://www.ccn.ac.uk/site/cis/index.htm
So it seems that it's there if needed. But I doubt that detracts from my earlier point that the overwhelming requirement is for software that mainly runs on Windows.
During my time at city college.. I do recall that there were around 12 PCs to be used for students to install anything (Novell/*nix) on. That's it.
(Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk <> wrote:
CCN relies heavily on providing vocational courses. In so far as these have an IT aspect, there's no significant market for CCN in basing them on Open Source software. They will have to teach people how to use MS products, and if they don't offer that then they won't get students and their funding crisis will get worse. Like many such colleges, their most profitable students will be recruited from outside the EC.
This sort of tail wagging the dog that IT education is often accused of. The ultimate aim of colleges (and FE colleges in particular) is to produce a skilled workforce. So, instead of teaching people how to use specific electrical testing gear, you teach them about electricity and then apply it to specific test gear, which is then supplemented by their work experience. The test gear they use at work may or may not be what the college has, but it often doesn't matter, as long as they are skilled enough to learn it reasonably quickly.
Contrast that with current computing and IT education. Some of it is actually independent of particular software, and necessarily so for markets where MS Office et al are not available in the language of instruction, but not yet in England.
If student or employer demand dictates -- rather than informs -- course provision, I think that is a disaster that will set us back years.
NB sig etc, as ever.
On 27-Jun-03 MJ Ray wrote:
Contrast that with current computing and IT education. Some of it is actually independent of particular software, and necessarily so for markets where MS Office et al are not available in the language of instruction, but not yet in England.
If student or employer demand dictates -- rather than informs -- course provision, I think that is a disaster that will set us back years.
I couldn't agree more with the principle of this, and regrettably feel convinced that we are already seriously set back.
Once upon a time, all you had available on the computer was some general-purpose language (even BASIC!), and getting a job done on the machine involved understanding the task, learning the capabilities of the language, and creating a program which performed the task. People who came out of that stable could get things done! It was amazing what very many people -- in categories which nowadays would fall firmly into "computer-illiterate" -- could achieve under their own steam.
Nowadays, all you learn is that for Task A you use Software X (because you can, though you're led to believe that you have to), and by the way you're awfully confused about all these icons so this is what you have to click on.
Nevertheless, as a result of the whole history of educational "progress" over the last decade or so, colleges are now obsessed with filling their student places; and this is driven by the less savoury aspects of "Quality Control" and "Assessment Exercises". If they don't get students, they don't get money, and they're in trouble.
This snake eats its own tail, as you can imagine.
Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 27-Jun-03 Time: 15:43:10 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
(Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk <> wrote:
I couldn't agree more with the principle of this, and regrettably feel convinced that we are already seriously set back.
Probably true, but we have to build from where we are instead of wish for where we could be now. Accepting the current "snake" as the reality of education possibly isn't a healthy thing. You never know, there might be some IT users there who still know what they could be doing. If we don't try, we'll just end up crying into our beer.
Very much "amen" to the Quality Control part. I get to fill out some forms this week, taking a whole day to do them :-/
Tarquin Mills speccyverse@ntlworld.com wrote: [...]
Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't know much about it.
How many do you want for free software?
Cost -- It's claimed that free software has a lower total cost of ownership. http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html This might be explained by the possibility of a free market in support, which does not happen with most single-provider proprietary software.
Control -- Students can take copies of free software to use on their own systems, without the college having to do expensive licence activities or make extra payments.
Study -- Free software licences allow students to study how it works, not just learn to use the software. Even on using the software, the ability for others to study the software leads to a healthy collaboration on manuals and similar works, as well as a more open market for published books.
Consistency -- the freedom to study and try modifications is often more consistent with common ideals of education.
Repair -- If a piece of free software doesn't work the way that the college wants it to, it can be changed by college staff or an independent support company.
Community -- there are active free software communities in the college's local area. They can be a sounding-board, expert demonstrators, possible source of support (both zero-cost and paid).
Opportunities -- the college could become a training provider for the Linux Professional Institute qualifications, or run their own independent courses, similar to those run at Bromley, for example.
Longevity -- Because it is possible to avoid vendor lock-in, it is possible to defer forced major upgrades during peak times. Also, as long as the software is sufficiently important, it can be used because free software never has termination clauses.
I was saying some of these rather a lot at Birmingham this week... more on that later.
On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 11:45:51PM +0100, Tarquin Mills wrote:
Can you give me a *very short* explaination as to why City College should switch to open source IT? We have a funding crisis at work and need to save money, so I've suggested we do this to the principle, but I really don't know much about it.
If you could point me at something not too tecky, I'd appreciate it.
[snip] Someone sent the above to me could you supply me something to give them. Thanks in advance.
They are running _one_ router there to be honest. I know this for a fact since I know a lot of people up there. I even offered to work for free to help improve some routing issues etc etc. But they turned me down anyway.
Forget it. You will _not_ get Linux implemented there because
a) Current system in place is functioning okay..... Okay, that was a little white lie.. I do recall that the mail server gets rebooted almost daily sometimes. It's Microsoft Exchange! b) They constantly spend money on _NEW_ routers etc. Seems like their system life cycle is like every 6 months. They just basically sell off their "old" computers and then just buy newer equipments. Cash crisis? Probably. c) They know that Microsoft peeps such as Sys admins there are cheaper to hire where *nix are demands higher pay. Fair enough but with *nix people, you can be ensured that the network will be looked after 100%. d) Windows licenses. Yes. We know about this already. e) Students... I am sure they are finding out about *nix slowly but then again, they just seems clueless when it comes to technoogy. Oh well.
I could go on however, they shouldn't really spend too much on newer technologies all the time. And most of all, their network gets hacked now and again (I even done it during my college years....).
You could speak to John Pollit (I think that is his name correctly) but as far as I know. He won't look into it at all.
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BenE -
Craig -
MJ Ray -
Tarquin Mills -
Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk