Any ideas on this?
Its a socket 754 machine, something like a 2Ghz Athlon, 1G memory. Debian Squeeze. It has always worked just fine, and in almost all ways except this still does. What has just now started happening however is that the owner has started to read the papers online. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to matter which paper or which browser, there will be a page with 'the wrong kind' of graphics. Its not clear exactly what the wrong kind is, some are fine, others seem not to be. Gradually, the fan will start to speed up.
If you now start up gkrell, you can see that cpu temperature starts to rise quite rapidly to the high 50s, and the fan gets very loud indeed. I don't know how far it would go, because one of us closes the browser fairly soon when this happens, and eventually the temperature falls to below 50.
It does not do it when displaying pictures. For instance, one can load in a file of a few hundred, and it will display the thumbnails fine, and then one can page through them repeatedly, they come up an display quite fast, and there's no problem.
It does do it when rendering some pdfs. Particularly, it did it with a graphics intensive pdf of some sort.
I thought about getting a better cpu cooler, this is the stock one, but there is very little space in these smallish cases. And I can't see why this should be happening. I have other barebones of this sort, Asus, and it never does. Another machine is an old 754, and it does not happen on it.
I'm not completely sure if this is new, because I'm not sure whether this sort of graphic content was displayed previously.
Meanwhile, there's a Novatech small form factor i3 machine at 400 which is looking more and more attractive.... Bought one for someone else, they are fairly compact, quite quiet, and run very cool. 754 is pretty old hat nowadays, so maybe its time.
Peter
On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 08:31:49AM +0100, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
If you now start up gkrell, you can see that cpu temperature starts to rise quite rapidly to the high 50s, and the fan gets very loud indeed. I don't know how far it would go, because one of us closes the browser fairly soon when this happens, and eventually the temperature falls to below 50.
That might well be a normal operating temperature for that cpu under load, if the noise is annoying then replace it with a better and more efficient cooler (perhaps look at http://www.quietpc.com )
It does do it when rendering some pdfs. Particularly, it did it with a graphics intensive pdf of some sort.
Is it just the cpu is being taxed sometimes and never was before? The other option is that it might be some flash content in a banner or advert on the page. I've encountered flash content before that will immediately peg the cpu to 100% and the only way to return the machine to a usable state is to close that tab in the browser. The cause for this is that people writing flash banner ads don't really care about user experience so they do it quickly and don't test it (I presume) I recall my dad asking me for help on his dialup as he couldn't check out on some web-shop, it turned out that the page was loading a flash advert before the checkout screen and the advert downloaded 2MB of data which obviously took a few minutes and caused the page to timeout while stuffing the cpu to 100%.
Adam
On 5 August 2010 09:17, Adam Bower adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Is it just the cpu is being taxed sometimes and never was before? The other option is that it might be some flash content in a banner or advert on the page. I've encountered flash content before that will immediately peg the cpu to 100% and the only way to return the machine to a usable state is to close that tab in the browser. The cause for this is that people writing flash banner ads don't really care about user experience so they do it quickly and don't test it (I presume)
Another CPU drain is Javascript - both New Scientist and the Guardian websites have been guilty of that one, though it is probably also the adverts doing the silly things.
Straw poll : Who uses AdBlock? Who thinks perhaps they should use it?
Tim.
On 05/08/10 10:13, Tim Green wrote:
Straw poll : Who uses AdBlock? Who thinks perhaps they should use it?
AdBlock, no, but I do use (and recommend) FlashBlock.
To the OP: Does the problem occur in a different browser?
I would check things like the graphics card heatsink & fan, and run a thorough memory check.
It has always worked just fine, and in almost all ways except this still does. *snip* cpu temperature starts to rise quite rapidly to the high 50s, and the fan gets very loud indeed. I don't know how far it would go, because one of us closes the browser fairly soon when this happens, and eventually the temperature falls to below 50.
*snip* It does do it when rendering some pdfs. Particularly, it did it with a graphics intensive pdf of some sort.
***Another machine is an old 754, and it does not happen on it.***
Hi Peter,
At the wish of pointing out the obvious, if you use moving parts for cooling, those moving parts will need to be serviced (ie: cleaned/repaired/replaced) at some point. Like a car, you may get away with not doing, but you may not.
The first thing I'd do with an overheating problem that happens when the machine is under stress, independent of software, is look at the cooling. Dust the fans and heat sink grooves out first, make sure the case has its cover on and that any exhausts have decent clearance - see if that solves the problem (it has for me many times). Remove the dust from the rest of the machine if so, this will only gather back at the fan otherwise
Replace/repair any bits that aren't working properly - if you can measure individual temps and see that something like the GPU is getting super-toasty, this might include reseating the heat sink with a bit of thermal paste - some of the coolers those blighters are very heavy and moving the machine a few times might have hurt the bond - again, something that's saved me replacing components before now.
I'd say a swift look at the cooling has solved such problems for me "quite often", so it's worth having a look.
Also, consider liquid cooling if you buy new kit, as it doesn't get this problem so much, obviously. Good luck.
On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 08:31:49AM +0100, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
If you now start up gkrell, you can see that cpu temperature starts to rise quite rapidly to the high 50s, and the fan gets very loud indeed. I don't know how far it would go, because one of us closes the browser fairly soon when this happens, and eventually the temperature falls to below 50.
Having a poke around on the AMD websites suggest that the max operating temperature for cpus of that vintage is 65C-70C. I'm not convinced that the computer is getting anywhere near overheating (and the bios should be configured to shut the machine down when it reaches the trip point).
If anything, it sounds like the computer is operating perfectly normally.
Adam
On Thu, 2010-08-05 at 08:31 +0100, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
Any ideas on this?
Its a socket 754 machine, something like a 2Ghz Athlon, 1G memory. Debian Squeeze. It has always worked just fine, and in almost all ways except this still does. What has just now started happening however is that the owner has started to read the papers online. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to matter which paper or which browser, there will be a page with 'the wrong kind' of graphics. Its not clear exactly what the wrong kind is, some are fine, others seem not to be. Gradually, the fan will start to speed up.
If you now start up gkrell, you can see that cpu temperature starts to rise quite rapidly to the high 50s, and the fan gets very loud indeed. I don't know how far it would go, because one of us closes the browser fairly soon when this happens, and eventually the temperature falls to below 50.
There are two separate issues here:
1. Why do some web pages require so much CPU capacity while others don't.
2. Why does the CPU run so hot when it is being worked.
In the first case this is down to poorly written content. Whenever the designer of a web page is allowed to write procedural steps they have the opportunity to write accidental infinite loops and lazy busy polling loops. Javascript and Java Applets both provide the ability to do this and I wonder if flash does to.
In the second case you need to establish what the maximum permissible temperature is and whether it is being approached. If so better cooling design is required, whether specifically from the CPU fan/cooler or the case design.
HTH, Steve.
On 07/08/10 00:37, Steve Fosdick wrote:
In the second case you need to establish what the maximum permissible temperature is and whether it is being approached. If so better cooling design is required, whether specifically from the CPU fan/cooler or the case design.
As others have said, it might be allowable for the CPU to hit the high 50's, if flash is bringing the machine to it's knees or if either the thermal interface (heatsync material) is damaged or just in poor condition. Or the heatsink itself is full of dust.
I'd be lifting the lid, removing and inspecting the heatsink for dust buildup, inspect the fan (does sensors report the fan speed on this machine) and remove the old heatsink material and replace it with artic silver or some other reasonable quality liquid heatsink compound (remembering with heatsink compound that less is more). Batch built machines tend to use the tape style thermal interface rather than proper heatsink compound and this deteriorates with age sometimes...as does cheap liquid compound..if it has gone dry and crusty then it is worse than useless.
Once you have done that run cpuburn or similar and watch the temperatures like a hawk..if it continues past the high 50's and approaches the maximum thermal design of the CPU then cut the tests and look at the cooling to the rest of the tower.
If the machine is levelling out at the high 50's under 100% cpu load then I would suggest that this is normal and that the fan hasn't been noticed because the machine hasn't been stressed in that way.
Then you need to look at flash or whatever is creating that load, check you are on recent plugin and browser versions etc.
Wayne,
Yes, the suggestion of replacing the heatsink compound is probably the most promising if having a go at a rescue.
Thinking harder about this though, maybe we are at the point of get the thing replaced with something with a reasonable life expectancy while I am still able to do the transfer relatively easily.... A couple years ago, before going into hospital, I replaced someone elses machine with a reasonably high end Core 2, silent graphics card, good well ventilated case, just in case, and it has lasted and will continue to a while longer. He even did a few updates on Debian stable, and escaped unscathed, which was encouraging.
When we get to this point in life, you spend a bit more, but you do get peace of mind in exchange.
I am thinking of one of two alternatives. One would be a Novatch i3 mainboard bundle, package it with a Silverstone cube case, and psu and fans from QuietPC. The other would be just buy the Novatech sff i3. A charity I work with got one of these, and they are reasonably small, light, pretty quiet (though the Silverstone might be quieter and better ventilated given the right choice of components). Not having to install it all is worth something.
Cheers,
Peter
Thanks guys for suggestions on this. Yes, you are probably right that the AMD processor of that generation run hotter. I have opened it up and got rid of dust, though there wasn't much.
It is doing it on both the FT and the Guardian, in both Firefox and Konqueror, and it also did it when rendering a large and heavily graphical PDF. So it is probably hardware.
One lesson of this is to be more careful about barebones in future. I thought of fitting a new cooler, but the problem is, there is so little clearance. Also, when you open it up, the airflow is clearly not the greatest because the case is fairly crammed full of psu and opticals. The main board is custom - this is the price of that nice compact form factor, so the natural lazy and cheap solution of buying a new mainboard bundle from Novatech is out.
Oh well, it was a good one while it lasted. There is another reason for changing it out, so maybe this is a good excuse. You young fellows will discover as you age, probably many years from now, a preoccupation which may be quite remote and novel at the moment. You find you cannot take for granted your continuing ability to manage technical things for other people. So one of the things you tend to do is, set up systems for them, and buy things for them, with half an eye out to the possibility that at any moment, they may find themselves on their own with it. As the Bible says, in the midst of life we are in death.
I am guessing that an i3 with lots of memory, Debian installed, clear simple instructions on keeping it up to date, well, it will give a few years... Best I can do, in any event.
Al
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Adam Bower -
Marcus Harris -
Mark Rogers -
Peter Alcibiades -
Steve Fosdick -
Tim Green -
Wayne Stallwood