Hi all, I wanted to canvas some peoples opinions on the situation that I have just found myself in, specifically I want to know if you think I am being discriminated against or not, and if this is fair or unfair :) Ok, so most of you know me but anyhow I am 25 year old British national, I don't have much in the way of formal education qualifications because I was taken out of school at age 13 due to illness. I have found employment with a few good companies in the UK in the past few years etc. Last year I took a job with a small ISP who after I had been working with them for 6 months was acquired by a much larger ISP and the end result was that I no longer had a job. Since then I have been looking for work in East Anglia or relevant training. Just over a month ago there was an advert in Eastern Daily Press where City College Norwich was offering free a course covering the "CISCO network academy" program, this is basically going to get you a CCNA if you pay for the exams. Anyhow, it didn't work out because they claimed that they didn't have enough interest for them to run the course. Today, I am reading the Eastern Daily Press and I see a big advert with the title "Women into Networking" which is a free course, for people aged 19 or over which covers the "CISCO network academy" and also gives you the A+ certificate at the end of it. The course is receiving special funding from the government and the European Social Fund. Of course there is a big catch, "women only" now as Kirsty will be able to confirm, I am most definitely not a woman. Now I would like some opinions from people here about a. is this sexual discrimination? b. is this fair? c. am i justified in complaining about this? d. do you know of any good people to complain to? I am currently taking this up with the college, the job centre, the agencies who are providing funding to the course and local MPs and MEPs. I think I will contact the papers/tele/radio types next week. I also noted that the same/similar program ran in Sweden 2 years ago and was also promoted by the European Social Fund the ESF (UK part of) proclaim on the front page of their website "promoting employment oppurtunites for all" and how they manage their funding so that it provides equal opportunities for all. Thanks Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On 2004-03-04 13:43:49 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
a. is this sexual discrimination?
Yes, AFAICT. (www.bailii.org is your fwend, although the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 is elsewhere on the web) It looks like English post-16 education can only discriminate legally if directed to do so by the Secretary of State for Education. IANAL, so go read it yourself or get advice.
b. is this fair? c. am i justified in complaining about this?
Trickier questions. I think it's unfair and complaining is justified, but I am against discrimination between people, both so-called positive and negative. I think you should try not to complain so far that it harms the availability of training at all, or it takes up more time than you can afford.
d. do you know of any good people to complain to?
Is this a matter for the Equal Ops Commission? Or the Learning and Skills Council? Besides that, nearly all of the ones you mention are worth contacting. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 03:59:15PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2004-03-04 13:43:49 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
a. is this sexual discrimination?
Yes, AFAICT. (www.bailii.org is your fwend, although the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 is elsewhere on the web) It looks like English post-16 education can only discriminate legally if directed to do so by the Secretary of State for Education. IANAL, so go read it yourself or get advice.
Thanks for that link, I havn't seen it before.
d. do you know of any good people to complain to?
Is this a matter for the Equal Ops Commission? Or the Learning and Skills Council? Besides that, nearly all of the ones you mention are worth contacting.
I have already contacted the EOC, they will contact me back tomorrow, and I will be speaking to the LSC in due course. Thanks Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
I have already contacted the EOC, they will contact me back tomorrow, and I will be speaking to the LSC in due course.
Adam I understand that you are upset, and why you are upset, but I really ask you to stop and think about what you are doing before rushing in in a headstrong and confrontational way. Wouldn't your time be better used in constructively looking for ways of getting the training that you want - looking for grants etc - than in destructively kicking up a fuss about this course? What are you going to gain from that? And if you are fired up by a sense of social injustice, I suggest that there are much more worthwhile things to campaign against than a women-only IT course. Syd
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 06:13:14AM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
I have already contacted the EOC, they will contact me back tomorrow, and I will be speaking to the LSC in due course.
Adam I understand that you are upset, and why you are upset, but I really ask you to stop and think about what you are doing before rushing in in a headstrong and confrontational way.
I don't feel that I am being confrontational, just trying to point out yet another injustice done to me by the education facilities in this county. I think you also have to understand how this college treated me last month.
Wouldn't your time be better used in constructively looking for ways of getting the training that you want - looking for grants etc - than in destructively kicking up a fuss about this course? What are you going to gain from that?
Do you not think that I have not done this already? I have been told that there is no money to help me out, the course won't run etc. I have also been told that I live in the wrong postcode to get help with funding.
And if you are fired up by a sense of social injustice, I suggest that there are much more worthwhile things to campaign against than a women-only IT course.
I am not campaigning against women only IT courses, perhaps you not capable of seeing this, what I am campaigning against is sexual discrimination. Big difference in my eyes. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
I don't feel that I am being confrontational,
Adam, I've noticed that you never do think that :-) :-) FWIW: One thing that I have found in my own life is that getting angry about feeling hard done by is a sort of vicious circle that perpetuates itself. It's easier to feel angry at everyone else than to do something about it - I still do it myself far too often. Worth thinking about?
Wouldn't your time be better used in constructively looking for ways of getting the training that you want - looking for grants etc - than in destructively kicking up a fuss about this course? What are you going to gain from that?
Do you not think that I have not done this already? I have been told that there is no money to help me out, the course won't run etc. I have also been told that I live in the wrong postcode to get help with funding.
Again, I am only suggesting that you stop and think what you are going to gain from all this and whether your time and energies are going to be better used in some other way. BTW have you discussed options with your adviser at the Job Centre? I found that there were some very useful advice sessions available when I was last signing on two or three years ago. You're young, you're intelligent and energetic, you have no children or other big financial responsibilities - now is the ideal time in your life to go for education or career change. Believe me it gets much harder as you get older and have a family etc. I was well into my forties, with children, before I began to get my act together. Why not do a degree for example or even consider something like teaching? I think you'd be very good at it. And it's worthwhile, well paid and will certainly require all that pent-up energy that you have! HTH and good luck. Syd
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 01:02:18PM +0000, Kirsten Naylor wrote:
On Sat, 2004-03-06 at 06:02, Syd Hancock wrote:
You're young, you're intelligent and energetic, you have no children
Well, no current children. But one might be along in nine months or so. We're not sure either way atm.
Just to follow this up, I guess that most of you know but I am sure there are a few stragglers and people we have forgotten (sorry!) but Kirsty and I are expecting our first baby in November of this year :) Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 06:02:27AM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
FWIW: One thing that I have found in my own life is that getting angry about feeling hard done by is a sort of vicious circle that perpetuates itself. It's easier to feel angry at everyone else than to do something about it - I still do it myself far too often. Worth thinking about?
Oh, I think like this anyhow, just sometimes you get to the end of your tether... more below if you want I can tell you the whole story sometime but it won't be very short :)
BTW have you discussed options with your adviser at the Job Centre? I found that there were some very useful advice sessions available when I was last signing on two or three years ago.
Hmmmm, the sum total of help that the jobcentre can give me is "we can offer you a CLAIT course" I have asked both when I was signing in Cambridge and now that I am in Cromer these questions, to be honest in Cambridge they seemed shocked when I asked them for extra help that they offer, I don't think it happens very often! In Cambridge they never could provide me with any advice on starting my own business! "We don't know anything about that" At least in Cromer they have been more helpful but due to the way things work they can't help me with any training until I have been unemployed for 6 months :( although they also said that EU funding and help would be available but I need to live in Cromer to get any help (yes, my MP and MEP will be beaten up on this too).
Why not do a degree for example or even consider something like teaching? I think you'd be very good at it. And it's worthwhile, well paid and will certainly require all that pent-up energy that you have!
I am doing a degree! I am an open university student, just that doesn't help with any quick fix training etc. (and it isn't cheap, I am not eligble for any help with funding due to the way they work out your income) I have to say that the other reason I am pissed off with City College is that last year I tried to get on the access course for engineering only to be told "oh, we havn't run that course for 7 years and we won't be running it this year. The only reason we advertise it is to see if we get enough interest to run it next year" I have tried to get on a CISCO course there, and I have also tried to get other computing and IT courses in the past and been given various other crap excuses which means they have never actually been able to offer me anything worthwhile :( To be honest, this women into networking ******** is the last straw for me, I have been trying to get higher or further education for so long now that I figure I may as well give up. It appears that they don't want technical people as students, I have been offered plenty of courses in things that I don't really have an interest in (like needlework or whatever) :( or the other options have been becoming a plumber or sparky or chippy or something, but the trouble is that I have a bad back so am not capable of doing much manual type labour. Oh when you say teaching... hmmm, i think i'd rather not thanks all the same, I think that I wouldn't have the patience to deal with pupils ;) Also I remember the young teacher I house shared with in Cambridge and how much money she had vs. how much money I had when I was just a junior sys-admin I wouldn't necessarily use the phrase well paid on the job description :) Anyhow, thanks for the suggestions Syd, does anyone know of somewhere I can go that has some clue about options for training and education in Norfolk? (that doesn't require you to be a single mother from an ethnic minority that only speaks a non-native language) (that is a joke, just in case the rabid PC rabble don't get it) or any other help I can get? I am buggered if I can find it. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Saturday 06 Mar 2004 4:40 pm, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
At least in Cromer they have been more helpful but due to the way things work they can't help me with any training until I have been unemployed for 6 months
Yes, that is true - most of the help only came when they were desperate to get me off their books after 26 weeks. Also, after 6 months, being someone whose age was greater than a large number ending in with a '0', they were even more keen to get me doing something useful, for some reason. Anyway, I went back to supply teaching since there was nothing better available. Syd
participants (4)
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adam＠thebowery.co.uk -
Kirsten Naylor -
MJ Ray -
Syd Hancock