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10369 discussions

Webcam as security monitor
by Greg Thomas 03 Dec '07

03 Dec '07

Just found an old webcam at the back of a cupboard, plugged it in to my Ubuntu box, installed Camorama, and woot! it works. Which set me to wondering. Camorama can be to record a picture from the webcam every (say) 20 minutes. What I was wondering was is there is any software out there that records the picture at a set interval, but only if the webcam image changes (you'd presumably need some sort of change threshold, to cope with minor changes). Any thoughts, anyone? Greg

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Time management software in Linux
by David Studholme 29 Nov '07

29 Nov '07

What do folks use to manage their 'to do' lists and track time spent on various projects? Up until now I have used scraps of paper. But I just installed Gnome Time Tracker 2.2.2. ('gnotime') from the debian repository. This appears to provide all the essential functions, but is, alas, unusable. This is because the drag and drop editing of the project hierarchy behaves unpredictably. Are there any good usable open source alternatives? Thanks, David. David Studholme PhD Bioinformatics Manager Sainsbury Laboratory Norwich NR4 7UH http://www.ayeaye.tsl.ac.uk/index.php?Itemid=285

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Re: [ALUG] Time management software in Linux
by samwise 29 Nov '07

29 Nov '07

On 29/11/2007, David Studholme <david.studholme(a)sainsbury-laboratory.ac.uk> wrote: > What do folks use to manage their 'to do' lists and track > time spent on various projects? > Are there any good usable open source alternatives? > > Thanks, BT recently purchased a small open source company, which grew out of an open source project called TiddlyWiki [www.tiddlywiki.com]. As they now employee the development team, they've been pushing it around their business as a useful productivity tool. It's a desktop wiki which can be used pretty effectively as a general purpose notepad, if it fits the way you work. Worth a try - to install, you just download a web page which makes it very easy to move around on memory sticks etc. Peter.

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Gnome configuration
by Dan Hatton 29 Nov '07

29 Nov '07

Dear All, I decided to have a play with Gnome (usually an FVWM user.) I managed to get a nice user-friendly desktop by doing ln -s /home/username /home/username/Desktop/username and creating a .xsession file that said #!/usr/bin/tcsh /usr/bin/gnome-panel & /usr/bin/gnome-wm But when the session's finished with, hitting the "Log out" option in the system menu only seems to close the gnome-panel, not actually to end the X session. I suspect that this is because I'm starting gnome-panel the "wrong" way. Any ideas, please? -- Thanks, Dan Hatton

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Multiple MySQl MySQL replication (on Debian/Ubuntu)
by Mark Rogers 27 Nov '07

27 Nov '07

Has anyone here played with database replication using MySQL on Debian/Ubuntu? What I have is a database server running a few dozen databases, of which a handful I need to replicate at the customer's premises. That is, for sake of argument, 20 databases on the server, 5 of which need individually replicating to 5 customer offices. Last time I looked at this there were two options, described below for those who care. My problem is that both require me to run multiple database instances and every time I've tried to make MySQL do that from a Debian/Ubuntu binary installation I've failed. Does anyone here have any experience in that area? (I had no joy at all from the MySQL forums last time I went through this; the Debian builds seemed of little interest to MySQL devs.) ---- Option 1. Tell MySQL to create a binary log, with logging enabled on the 5 databases. Run 5 additional database instances using the blackhole database engine, which replicate one database each from the master binary log and use it to create their own logs. Set up MySQL at each customer site to replicate from their respective blackhole database instance. [Background: MySQL can (or could?) only log to a single binary file, so this messing around is required to split the logs out; each blackhole database instance receives the data for all 5 logged databases but ignores everything except that for its own database, which it then logs. The customer's server replicates against that. Otherwise the customer's server has to pull the data for all 5 databases to ignore 4 of them, a bandwidth hog and (more importantly) security flaw. The blackhole database engine simply dumps all data to /dev/null (ie it stores nothing) but in the process maintains the logs correctly.] Option 2. Remove the 5 databases in question from the main MySQL instance, and create new 5 MySQL instances (one for each database that needs logging). Let each separately create binary logs; client databases replicate from them as above. In my opinion both options are poor fixes for what ought to be a trivial change to the master to make it log to separate databases, but my opinions don't often count for much :-) -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG

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Cambridge and East Anglia Python Users Group
by Richard Lewis 27 Nov '07

27 Nov '07

Dear ALUG, The second meeting of the Cambridge and East Anglia Python Users Group will be held on Tuesday 4th December at 20:00 in the Calrton Arms (Carlton Way, Cambridge). There are a few agenda items this time * when pub meetings are * whether we want to join O'Reilly's discount scheme * some discussion about how we might organise talks (particularly where) Feel free to mail me on- or off-list regarding this if you like. Cheers, Richard -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Richard Lewis - UEA, MUS PG http://www.richard-lewis.me.uk/ JID: ironchicken(a)jabber.earth.li -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://www.thecarltonarms.co.uk/ http://groups.google.com/group/campug http://www.pyconuk.org/community/Cambridge_and_East_of_England

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Re: [ALUG] BT Home Hub, port forwarding
by samwise 25 Nov '07

25 Nov '07

On 25/11/2007, Greg Thomas <Greg(a)thethomashome.co.uk> wrote: > Well, armed with the knowledge that it can work, I unconfigured the > existing set up, and then reconfigured it again.This time, it worked! > Go figure; probably finger trouble with the set up in the first place. > > FWIW, I've had no issues with the HH since one of the early software > updates; it's stable, reliable, gives me a good enough connection > speed, and (generally) required very little thought from me. Yep, that's what it was designed for. I have discovered one bug - if you change your LAN network to be something other than the default 192.168.0.0, the firewall port forwarding rules won't work. No idea how to report it, tho ... Peter.

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BT Home Hub, port forwarding
by Greg Thomas 25 Nov '07

25 Nov '07

[This is not strictly Linux, but I guess it's the sort of thing a number of people on -list may have played with] I was playing with the port forwarding on my BTHH the other day, and noticed something odd. If I forward port 80 from the internet to my Linux box running Apache, when I visit whatever non-RIPE address the HH has at that time (from inside the NAT range), it still presents the HH admin interface, not the Apache files - i.e. the calls aren't being forwarded. Is there a way around this other than running on a port other than 80? Anyone know if it works from the internet proper (still waiting for my BT FON to be enabled)? TIA, Greg

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Re: [ALUG] Openwrt/dd-wrt/x-wrt
by mbm 25 Nov '07

25 Nov '07

Don't you just /love/ flame wars? (and my two penn'orth. None of the wrt applications could really be said to be suitable for newbies. Think about how they have to be acquired. Most ADSL users either use the router supplied by their provider, or (a smaller number) they will use a router bought at PC World. The kind of user who is prepared to install openwrt tends not to be at the newbie end of the spectrum). Mick

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sane-find-scanner finds my scanner, what next?
by Chris G 25 Nov '07

25 Nov '07

If I run sand-find-scanner it finds my scanner successfully but none of the front-ends can find a scanner, what am I missing? home$ sane-find-scanner -q found USB scanner (vendor=0x04b8 [EPSON], product=0x012c [EPSON Scanner]) at libusb:007:004 found USB scanner (vendor=0x093a, product=0x2603) at libusb:003:004 home$ home$ scanimage scanimage: no SANE devices found home$ Similarly xsane, xscanimage etc. can't find my scannner(s). -- Chris Green

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Re: [ALUG] BT Home Hub
by mbm 24 Nov '07

24 Nov '07

Please, please, anyone using a BT Home hub do yourself a big favour and stop right now. Go out and buy a decent router that BT don't control. I spent some long time earlier this year playing with the hub and everything that I found bothered me (and others with whom I corresponded). The is a crippled Thomson router which is locked to BT's network. They routinely update the software remotely without your agreement. You can lock it down to prevent this, but frankly why bother - just buy a decent router. I documented this at http://baldric.net/2007/01/22/bt-home-hub-and-the-gpl/. That post also points to comments from me (and many others with similar experiences - see Kai Robinson in particular) on a good site called homehubblog. See for example http://www.homehubblog.com/2006/12/23/christmas-present-from-bt/. Mick >Ill have a look when I get home, but Ive done exactly the same thing >as you and I can access my apache webserver ok. The only slight >difference is that I use dydns name instead of IP address but this is >the same. >Also I had no idea it was possible to access the BT home hub >management interface from the internet. That is rather worrying >considering how often it resets itself and port forwarding rules >disappear,

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Why is /etc/cron.daily happening twice
by Chris G 24 Nov '07

24 Nov '07

If I do a 'ps -ef' on my system I see the following:- root 17343 1 0 04:02 ? 00:00:00 crond root 17344 17343 0 04:02 ? 00:00:00 /bin/bash /usr/bin/run-parts /etc/cron.daily root 18023 17344 0 05:05 ? 00:00:00 /bin/bash /usr/bin/run-parts /etc/cron.daily Why does '/bin/bash /usr/bin/run-parts /etc/cron.daily' appear to be spawning a copy of itself just over an hour after it started? I have looked at the /usr/bin/run-parts script and I really can't see a reason why it should do this unless one of the scripts in /etc/cron.daily is doing something wierd and I have only added a very simple backup script there. Oh, this is on Fedora 7 by the way. -- Chris Green

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Re: [ALUG] Ubuntu questions
by Greg Thomas 22 Nov '07

22 Nov '07

On 19/11/2007, Ian Thompson-Bell <ianbell(a)ukfsn.org> wrote: > Greg Thomas wrote: > > > > o There's no obvious way to get out system information; Device Manager > > will tell me it's a PIII, but not the speed. > > Hardware info gives this as you might expect. It will tell me I've a PIII Coppermine CPU, but unless I'm missing something, there's no CPU speed. > > o There are two package managers (Update Manager and Synaptic Package > > Manager). The former, at least, tells me when there are updates > > available. I don't know yet if it will include extra packages > > installed by the latter (e.g. Apache WWW Server). > > Update manager will manage updates for everything installed by itself or > synaptic. Well, that's reassuring, at least. > > o Disappointed that something as basic as NTP isn't installed by > > default. Even (spit) Windows has had this since NT4. > > Yes, but Windows doesn't have a full blown set of Office apps etc etc > etc as standard. If you do by a Windows PC, it will often come with MS Works, which contains everything bar a presentation package. > > So, is Ubuntu not quite as ready for the mainstream as I thought, or > > have I missed something? > > Define mainstream. Ready for someone who has no interest in the OS other than as a productivity tool. Greg

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Ubuntu questions
by Greg Thomas 22 Nov '07

22 Nov '07

I've just installed an Ubuntu box on an old PC (could do with an extra 256MB, but hopefully that will be sorted later today; thanks, Matt :) ) It strikes me that, unless I'm missing something, it's not quite as user friendly as I was led to believe; o There's no obvious way to get out system information; Device Manager will tell me it's a PIII, but not the speed. System Monitor will at least tell me the installed RAM, but again not the CPU speed. o "Power management" is a bit of a grandiose name, given that all it will do is turn off the PC or the monitor. No disk spin-down times, fan speed controls, etc. o There are two package managers (Update Manager and Synaptic Package Manager). The former, at least, tells me when there are updates available. I don't know yet if it will include extra packages installed by the latter (e.g. Apache WWW Server). Why two in the first place? o Disappointed that something as basic as NTP isn't installed by default. Even (spit) Windows has had this since NT4. So, is Ubuntu not quite as ready for the mainstream as I thought, or have I missed something? Greg

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Re: [ALUG] main Digest, Vol 29, Issue 28
by mbm 22 Nov '07

22 Nov '07

Surge I don't know. I can tell which router is right for /me/ - I currently use a Thomson Speedtouch (780WL). I like the fact that it provides both a web based GUI (for speed and ease of routine config) and a decent CLI for more in depth configuration. Thomson have a good guide to the CLI on-line at http://www.thomson-broadband.co.uk/codepages/content3.asp?c=7&ProductID=528 The router runs a linux kernel and busybox and unlike the BTHH (which is based on the Thomson) it isn't crippled. I also like D-LINK kit for home use. But if you really want the full flexibility of a linux firewall, then I'd go for IPcop. You /will/ need a separate box, but it has a very small footprint and will run on some pretty ancient kit (try 486 with 86Meg of RAM). Alternatively, if you really want to get your hands dirty, go for openwrt (mentioned by Adam in a different post above). Mick >What I really do care about is the hardcore access to the device. I >want to be able to change things. I would like a real Linux system, >with a real shell and iptables that I could tinker with, and something >that expect would run on (tried expect on a telnet session to the >BTHomeHub and things didn't work well). I'd also like this to be in >one device, not having to use 2 power plugs for a modem and a separate >router. >So, which router would be right for me?

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Backup solutions for "not very linux" server destinations
by Chris G 21 Nov '07

21 Nov '07

I have just installed a 500Gb Network Server on my home network. It lives in the (very) detached garage so should be proof against even quite serious disasters to our house. However, although it runs a cut down Linux as its OS and thereby provides its services by Samba/CIFS it's not a very good or modern implementation and so it isn't easy to simply rsync files across to it. Using rsync (or the closely related rdiff-backup) results in lots of errors when the backup encounters symlinks, mixed case, etc. So I suspect I need a backup solution which packs up the files to be backed up into some sort of archive file and then just copies that file across to the server. Does anyone here use a backup solution of this sort and/or know any good ones? -- Chris Green

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Re: [ALUG] Ipswich ALUG Christmas Meal
by Elisabeth Fosbrooke-Brown 20 Nov '07

20 Nov '07

> The all you can eat buffet is £15.90 a head Sadly, too expensive for me :( I think we'll have to arrange a Skint Students' and Layabouts' meal in addition. -- sfr

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Re: [ALUG] Ubuntu questions
by Bev Nicolson 20 Nov '07

20 Nov '07

> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bev Nicolson" <bnicolson(a)operamail.com> > To: "Greg Thomas" <Greg(a)TheThomasHome.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Ubuntu questions > Sent this straight to Greg rather than the list. @'.'@ Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:23:17 +010 > > <<Ready for someone who has no interest in the OS other than as a > productivity tool.>> > > But with definition, Windows wouldn't be ready either as it still > needs the owner to read the manual. (Some would argue it isn't > ready now but anyway...!) > Next to the people on this list I know very little but I can make > Ubuntu work so that's good enough for me. > > Bev. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Greg Thomas" <Greg(a)TheThomasHome.co.uk> > > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Ubuntu questions > > Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:17:53 +0000 > > > > > > On 19/11/2007, Ian Thompson-Bell <ianbell(a)ukfsn.org> wrote: > > > Greg Thomas wrote: > > > > > > > > o There's no obvious way to get out system information; Device Manager > > > > will tell me it's a PIII, but not the speed. > > > > > > Hardware info gives this as you might expect. > > > > It will tell me I've a PIII Coppermine CPU, but unless I'm missing > > something, there's no CPU speed. > > > > > > o There are two package managers (Update Manager and Synaptic Package > > > > Manager). The former, at least, tells me when there are updates > > > > available. I don't know yet if it will include extra packages > > > > installed by the latter (e.g. Apache WWW Server). > > > > > > Update manager will manage updates for everything installed by itself or > > > synaptic. > > > > Well, that's reassuring, at least. > > > > > > o Disappointed that something as basic as NTP isn't installed by > > > > default. Even (spit) Windows has had this since NT4. > > > > > > Yes, but Windows doesn't have a full blown set of Office apps etc etc > > > etc as standard. > > > > If you do by a Windows PC, it will often come with MS Works, which > > contains everything bar a presentation package. > > > > > > So, is Ubuntu not quite as ready for the mainstream as I thought, or > > > > have I missed something? > > > > > > Define mainstream. > > > > Ready for someone who has no interest in the OS other than as a > > productivity tool. > > > > Greg > > > > _______________________________________________ > > main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > > http://www.alug.org.uk/ > > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > > Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way: > Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com > > Powered by Outblaze > -- _______________________________________________ Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way: Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com Powered by Outblaze

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Secondary/Tertiary DNS to mirror hosted DNS (123-Reg)
by Mark Rogers 19 Nov '07

19 Nov '07

Anyone with 123-Reg hosted domains will probably be aware that their DNS died over the weekend. This ought not be possible, given the redundancy, but for about 24hrs nobody with domains hosted with 123-Reg (well nobody who uses their DNS anyway) will have had web/email. That includes me and several of my clients :-( Therefore I want to set up a DNS server on my own hosted server to act as (probably) a tertiary server (maybe secondary, not sure it matters for the sake of this question). In an ideal world I'd have a server which was fully (automatically) synced with 123-Reg's servers for all the domains I'm interested in. Given that I don't have any control over 123-Reg's servers I'm not sure how close I can get to that. I've also never set up DNS from scratch before (I've used various hosted DNS options which don't require me to think), but I think this would be a good time to learn more about DNS configuration. Not least because as a tertiary server it won't normally matter if I get it wrong :-) First question is pretty basic therefore: where do I start? -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0845 45 89 555 Registered in England (0456 0902) at 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG

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How to execute a simple command during boot (before mounts)
by Chris G 19 Nov '07

19 Nov '07

I have a Freecom network disk which needs the following to be executed before I can mount it using an entry in /etc/fstab :- echo 0 > /proc/fs/cifs/LinuxExtensionsEnabled Is there any neat way I can get this command executed during the boot sequence before the entries in /etc/fstab are mounted? -- Chris Green

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Freedomware Gamefest
by MJ Ray 19 Nov '07

19 Nov '07

Thanks to Bristol Wireless Cooperative for the tip-off. I think ALUG has some bzflaggers... Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:16:33 -0000 From: "Ben Green" Message-ID: <op.t1x15vj50bw284@spinach> Subject: [bristol] Freedomware Gamefest Anyone heard of this before? Well you have now. http://www.freedomware-gamefest.com/ [snip!] Regards, -- MJ Ray http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html tel:+44-844-4437-237 - Webmaster-developer, statistician, sysadmin, online shop builder, consumer and workers co-operative member http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ - Writing on koha, debian, sat TV, Kewstoke http://mjr.towers.org.uk/

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Norwich 2nd Thursday announce mails
by Jonathan McDowell 16 Nov '07

16 Nov '07

Can I have a volunteer to take over the monthly Norwich 2nd Thursday announcement mails please? I missed this month's and while I could blame the starting a new job and being in the US and just generally being busier than normal I think it makes more sense for someone who is regularly able to go to post the mails. J. -- ] http://www.earth.li/~noodles/ [] I think he's a few bytes short of [ ] PGP/GPG Key @ the.earth.li [] a checksum. [ ] via keyserver, web or email. [] [ ] RSA: 4DC4E7FD / DSA: 5B430367 [] [

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3rd Monday Monthly Ipswich Social Meeting : The Milestone, Woodbridge Road
by samwise 16 Nov '07

16 Nov '07

The monthly "Third Monday" ALUG Ipswich Social Meeting returns next week (Monday 19th Nov) at 20:00: The Milestone Beer House 5 Woodbridge Road IPSWICH IP4 2EA Tel: 01473 252425 Map/Directions URI: http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=IP4+2EA The Milestone pub is in the centre of Ipswich, near the now-defunct Odeon cinema and not far from The Regent Theatre. There is more information on the venue, including car parking info, on the ALUG wiki: http://www.alug.org.uk/wiki/moin.cgi/Meetings All are welcome, novices and experienced users. Hopefully, it shouldn't be too hard to find the pack, look for those huddled around a laptop! Feel free to ask for further information on the Main ALUG mailing list. This month's meeting is another mainly social one - as our imagination for tutorial subjects was running thin last month (and we've had a few top ones in recent months). However, me and PeteT did say we try and have a look at some linux games ... Hope to see you there, Peter.

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ISP-relay SMTP question
by ted.harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk 15 Nov '07

15 Nov '07

Hi Folks, I'm hoping someone with the expertise can help me! In connection with trying to diagnose email delivery problems to a particular domain, I'd like to know the answer to the following. My email procedure is: 1. Compose the email "off-line" in my MUA (XFMail) 2. "Send" it -- so it goes in the outbox 3. Really send it (batch send) -- XFMail hands the outbox over to sendmail which then does SMTP with the mail server of my ISP (Zen). Up to this point, there is no problem; and receipt of a "check" Bcc: sent to me on an external email account via the ISP verifies that the ISP accepted the mail for delivery. And of course I usually have no problems with delivery of emails to their destinations by the ISP. Except for this one domain. Now the question. When my sendamil is doing its SMTP with Zen's mail server, the first substantive request it will make is mail from: <whatever.my.sendmail.uses> After the mail has been received by the ISP, the ISP's mail servers will try to initiate connections with the destination domain's mail server. Again, once a connnection is established, the first substantive request it will make will be of the form: mail from: <whatever.my.ISP.uses> My question is: What (if any) is the relationship between <whatever.my.sendmail.uses> and <whatever.my.ISP.uses> ?? Does <whatever.my.ISP.uses> take the email address from the "From:" header in the email? From the "envelope-from"? Or does it uses its own version, as in (e.g.): mailer-daemon(a)zen.co.uk Or what? One aspect of the background to this question is that, when I try myself to do a (test) manual SMTP dialogue with one of the remote domains mail servers, while I may well get through and successfully send the mail, on many other occasions I will get a response to "mail from:" on the lines of mail from: Ted.Harding(a)manchester.ac.uk 451 4.3.2 Please try again later which will be repeated indefinitely if I keep trying. So I'm wondering if it may be a negative response to the email address used in the "mail from:" request, or has some other reason. Since I don't know whether Zen's mail server would use the same (or similar) email address in its own "mail from:" request, I can't (as yet) link the delivery failures I get with my own SMTP dialogue with the delivery failures when Zen tries to forward my emails to the destination domain. [And, by the way, how should I interpret the error message 451 4.3.2 Please try again later ??] With thanks, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <ted.harding(a)nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 15-Nov-07 Time: 11:36:23 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

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Motherboard memory problem
by Chris G 15 Nov '07

15 Nov '07

I have just bought an extra 4Gb memory for my Abit AB9 Pro motherboard, I have plugged it in and it works fine (so I now have 6Gb) but I'm not convinced I understand the optimum way to install the memory. There are four memory slots numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4, they are laid out as two pairs, 1 and 2 close together and 3 and 4 close together. The manual is very ambiguous/confusing, it says:- To reach the optimum performance in dual-channel configurations, install identical DDR2 DIMM pairs for each channel. So does that mean a matched pair in both slots of channel A and a matched pair in both slots of channel B? That's not how the dealer had installed the existing memory and it isn't how their examples are either (see below). It's pretty definite that Channel A is slot 1 and slot 2, Channel B is slot 3 and slot 4, that at least is clear enough. However this is where it gets confusing, the sample layouts are for "Dual Channel Asymmetric" and "Dual Channel Symmetric", it doesn't say which is the best and they don't make a lot of sense. For example some "Dual Channel Asymmetric" layouts are:- Slot1 256Mb, Slot2 256Mb, Slot3 512Mb, Slot4 512Mb Slot1 256Mb, Slot2 256Mb, Slot3 256Mb, Slot4 512Mb Whereas a "Dual Channel Symmetric" examples are:- Slot1 512Mb, Slot2 empty, Slot3 512Mb, Slot4 empty Slot1 256Mb, Slot2 256Mb, Slot3 empty, Slot4 512Mb Slot1 256Mb, Slot2 512Mb, Slot3 256Mb, Slot4 512Mb Slots 1 and 3 are pink, slots 2 and 4 are red. I *suspect* that I have it right, as follows:- Slot1 1Gb, Slot2 2Gb, Slot3 1Gb, Slot4 2Gb (the dealer installed 1Gb were already in slots 1 and 3) but I'd really like to *know* that I have it right! -- Chris Green

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