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Any warnings / recommendations on USB external hard disk?
by Jan T. Kim 09 Dec '05

09 Dec '05

Dear all, I plan to get myself an external USB hard disk, mainly for storing digital photos, scanned stuff etc. and for backing up the internal hard disk of my notebook. Surfing around a little, I found this offer of Western Digital USB hard disks: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46695&doy=7m11 The 320G offer seems quite reasonable to me. Do any of you have any recommendations / warnings / experience with this, or similar USB hard disks? Personally, I don't expect any difficult issues, I'd expect the HD to appear as an SCSI device (/dev/sda or whatever), just as a USB flash stick... is that right, or am I naive? Best regards & thanks in advance, Jan -- +- Jan T. Kim -------------------------------------------------------+ | email: jtk(a)cmp.uea.ac.uk | | WWW: http://www.cmp.uea.ac.uk/people/jtk | *-----=< hierarchical systems are for files, not for humans >=-----*

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Re: Best tool for resizing Jpegs, preferably command line
by tom potts 08 Dec '05

08 Dec '05

re resizing jpegs that old favourite(?) the Gimp if you want command line stuff http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Basic_Batch/ it also has some perl scripting that should help - if you want to extend a menu so (perhaps) you can just point at a directory and click: http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Basic_Perl/ ___________________________________________________________ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/

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Parsimony?
by Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk 07 Dec '05

07 Dec '05

Hi Folks, The early Unix developers were parsimonious with keystrokes (and for good reason), so gave many commands very short names (like 'ls', 'mv'). So I thought I'd do a quick hunt for all 1- or 2-letter commands names on a Red Hat 9 system. Out of the 26 + 26*26 = 702 possible command names that could be made from 1 or 2 lower-case letters, I found only 55 (8%) in root's PATH: w ab ar as at bc cc ci co cp dc dd df dp du ed ex gs gv id ip jw ld ls ln lp ls lz mf mt mv nl nm od pb pm pr ps rb rm rx rz sb sg sh su sx sz tc tl tr ul uz vi wc Now that IS parsimonious! (I've added one or two of my own, like 'tl' for 'telnet', but have left these out of the above). Hmmm, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding(a)nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 07-Dec-05 Time: 00:08:23 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

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Ebay and Firefox
by Wayne Stallwood 06 Dec '05

06 Dec '05

Since a few days ago I have been experiencing problems with the standard build of Firefox as provided within Ubuntu Breezy (1.0.7) and Ebay. I can browse lists of items for sale with no problems but if I try and open the details of an item (usually I do this in a new tab with a middle click) it sits there loading perpetually. Eventually the page may load but more often than not results in a time out when contacting cgi.ebay.co.uk Another Ubuntu machine at the office is showing the same behaviour, and an Apple Powerbook on my home connection works fine using safari. So I don't think it's connectivity related. Tried disabling the Http pipelining as I have heard that this can cause problems with some sites and that made no difference. Is this an Ubuntu update that has broken Firefox or is ebay at fault, can someone else with Firefox confirm/deny that they can repeat this problem.. Ta muchly.

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RE: [ALUG] Ebay and Firefox
by Keith Watson 06 Dec '05

06 Dec '05

> From: Wayne Stallwood Sent: 05 December 2005 23:56 > > Since a few days ago I have been experiencing problems with > the standard build of Firefox as provided within Ubuntu > Breezy (1.0.7) and Ebay. > > I can browse lists of items for sale with no problems but if > I try and open the details of an item (usually I do this in a > new tab with a middle click) it sits there loading > perpetually. Eventually the page may load but more often than > not results in a time out when contacting cgi.ebay.co.uk > > Another Ubuntu machine at the office is showing the same > behaviour, and an Apple Powerbook on my home connection works > fine using safari. So I don't think it's connectivity related. > > Tried disabling the Http pipelining as I have heard that this > can cause problems with some sites and that made no difference. > > Is this an Ubuntu update that has broken Firefox or is ebay > at fault, can someone else with Firefox confirm/deny that > they can repeat this problem.. > Just tried it and it works fine. Same distro - Ubuntu 5.10 (I have used Synaptic to ensure everythings at the latest version). Regards, Keith ____________ The first problem for all of us, is not to learn, but to unlearn. - Gloria Steinem

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Suse et al.
by Bob Dove 05 Dec '05

05 Dec '05

Hi folks, So, there we have it - not a great deal of enthusiasm for Suse! Perhaps I should have gone for the Ubuntu 'free' distro! I must say that the 'desktop' is nice, but I can't get to grips with 'home.' From 'my computer' 'home shows a set of files, but from the task bar 'home' brings up a different menu with the same files plus my personal folder. Having copied some image files into a folder, Konqueror shows a set of 'thumbs' of which some are images and some are icons. having set up associations so that clicking a thumb in Konq opens and loads the image into Gimp works with first image selected, but to load the second, Gimp has to be closed and re-opened by clicking second image. Then there are images that bring up error messages that the resolution is not supported! What's that all about? And when Gimp fires up, only one of the two tool panels load. Gimp, excellent as it is as 'free' image editor would not make me give up Photoshop, and Scribus I can't install so I don't know if I can live without QuarkXPress. Obviously I have a lot to learn, the migration from 'doze is not easy - perhaps the creators of O/S like Suse et al should make the transition from one to 'tother easier, and let users install goodies on a simple 'install' file. TMP folder; should this be treat like a 'doze 'temp' folder and cleaned out on occasions? Cheers, BD. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 02/12/2005

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Ubuntu CDs
by Dave Briggs 05 Dec '05

05 Dec '05

Hi chaps I had a job lot of Ubuntu 5.10 CDs through the post this weekend. The usual deal, a live CD and an install one. I have them for 'normal' PC, 64-bit and Mac. If anyone would like one (or more!) just send me an email off list with your address. Cheers -- Dave Briggs linux(a)davebriggs.net | http://davebriggs.net | http://davebriggs.net/sclug

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Another newbie joins
by Phil Wade 05 Dec '05

05 Dec '05

Hi all, I've been asked to "send a short description of why you're interested in Linux to the mailing list" - so here it is. I've been into computers since 1982 (ZX Spectrum - Z80) and am now self-employed helping people with their Windoze machines. I like the politics of open-source software and I thought I'd better learn Linux before I die. I'm very, very old (58). Also, the Reindeer is a decent pub - do they still brew their own beer? -- Phil Wade Norwich

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Weekly IRC reminder
by Brett Parker 05 Dec '05

05 Dec '05

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. Historically, these used to be the only time a lot of us would be about, now the channel has some usual faces that are there most of the time (except at silly o'clock, when we might be sleeping, or on the second thursday of the month, where we might be drinking in the Reindeer), so don't feel limited to visit during this time, come visit us when ever you feel like it! The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include xchat, irssi and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://www.irssi.org/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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FREE
by Bob Dove 04 Dec '05

04 Dec '05

Hi Peter and other members. I know what FREE means! I'm old enough to be ignored rather than told to go back to school (unless it is the U.S College of Irony)! Yes, I'm sure that folks do make a living out of 'Open Source' software as equally other use 'doze to make a living, but what has that to do with a 'FREE' software distribution on a magazine cover. Not only that I also know that folk down load FREE distros from the web and offer them for sale in things like micro mart. I believe I have read notices to the effect that the software is FREE - that is 'no cost' to the end user but the person downloading and offering it to other end user may charge for media used, post and pack &c. Please let me know if I have mis-understood all this 'free' stuff? "Fully paid up" as I said was an indication that I have a fully working installation of Linux and I want to learn how to make it as useful to me as 'doze. I haven't seen any postings on this ALUG that any of the members actually want dosh in exchange for their wisdom (not that I understand much of it as yet), though I'm sure not many would refuse a beer if offered in a certain Norwich hostelry! There doesn't seem to be any shortage of irony either! And no doubt in due course I'll be an adept command line typer! But thanks for the tip about mounting. I did discover that when media was in the drives (the DVD drives anyway) they were mounted. Now I need you get my USB drives recognised. Cheers, BD.

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Re: Suse 10.0 (Bob Dove)
by Peter 03 Dec '05

03 Dec '05

We've been using Suse 9.2 and 9.3 for the last year or so, and also Mandriva - 10.2, 2005 and now 2006. I do find Suse much less usable and much flakier. We are both using Gnome, so the differences are very very clear. The detection of usb peripherals isn't reliable. On Mandriva, you plug in and there they are on the desktop. On Suse, they may or may not be depending on how long you wait and what they are. My flash card reader mostly works, depending on what is in it. My USB pen drive never. On Mandriva, I have never had a partition fail to mount at startup. On Suse (9.2) one partition, a whole disk actually, simply vanished for no apparent reason. Upgraded to 9.3 and back it came. On Mandriva, the interface in either Gnome or KDE seems reasonably laid out. The default version of KDE on all of the Suses seems to have been designed by someone trying to make it look unusable. Then there is package installation. Urpmi really works quite well. YaST has you making pencil notes of whatever else you need to get as a dependency, then its dependencies, and I have actually found myself going around in circles - A requires B which requires A. My impression is that Suse comes with a less complete set of the libraries you need for adding more packages. Yes, you can install apt-rpm and edit the repositories. On Mandriva you don't really need to. Then there are the weirdnesses. Install Sylpheed, get through the dependencies (apt-rpm is essential if you are not to be driven mad by this) and the interface is simply weird - proliferation of folders as a default for instance, terrible fonts, compared to a nice clean look on Mandriva. The file manager - I cannot for the life of me figure out why sometimes when you are looking at a folder of photos, you seem to open in EOG and at other times in some kind of viewer with editing capabilities. And why has the zooming scroll wheel suddenly stopped working? Bottom line: your failing installation is a Message from Above. Someone is saying to you, You Do Not Want This Installation. Get Mandriva 2006 instead! It should have been right there on the stand. If they are out now, I'll copy one for you if you like. If you download the free CDs, you need to use the Mandriva admin centre and then add the official and contribution repositories, but it will lead you through that. You can also install over the net using one of the boot disks. I've done both, on different machines, and found either completely painless. Good luck Peter

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Re: Another newbie joins
by Phil Wade 03 Dec '05

03 Dec '05

> Not quite as old as I am, I beat you by a year, and my computing career > started long before yours - I've earned my keep by programming since > around 1970. Oh dear, does that mean I've let in a goal or something? Do we get to play again? Anyway, I'll bet my dad can beat your dad... :) -- Phil Wade

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Rant from Japan: Linux must give cost-effective performance in business world, surely?
by Tatsuhiko Maegawa 03 Dec '05

03 Dec '05

Rant from Japan My heartfelt thanks first goes to Mark Rey, Paul Russell and Andrew Savory there in Norwich. These guys invited me Linux world, when I was a politics student and did not know much about computing world. Without them, I probably have not arrived to the point where I stand now. Six years is long, and I miss them very much. Now that I live back in Japan for in sixth years period, I felt it is good time to reconsider the use of Linux in business world. Over the time I had business with managers and well wishers who want to have system. Many had no idea of computing world like what I used to. All had same thoughts - fast application development with cheap expenses. All agrees that their imaginary system will be beneficial to everyone. No one knows how to use that system - until it gets there. System being made and time elapsed, you talk to the exact same people, and now they are asking to retrieve informations that have not been asked before. Cost adds up, data structures becoming to look complicated, firely arguments opes, and the end seems imminent. But every single person all agree there must be Microsoft Windows. They all believe Bill Gates provide proper system with fault-torelance guaranteed. All simple, all easy, they say. Not quite, I must admit. Nowadays system is made of OS and open-source programming language. Microsoft .Net (VB/C++/MS Java) is the exception of the talk. MacOSX, Linux, NetBSD will be amongst the choice. Linux and RDBMS is having better relations. MySQL and PostgreSQL are certainly the choice. Even Oracle supports it, providing developer chooses right Linux OS. Apart from choosing Oracle and Linux for RDBMS management, first installation and system management should ended up cheaper. FTP version of Linux still allows essentials that require to run. And if I consider the use of softwares to add up on top of OS fee, it could go up higher. Next, key Criteria of cost. These are backup and restoration, execution, and everyday management. Everyday management consists of log checking, patches, and memory usage. Execution is really the speed of application. Backup and restoration can be the most annoying factor of cost, but let me assume of Disk to Disk to Tape backup solution for now. Like the others I agree GUI gives faster setups and visual confirmation for all. BUT when it comes to automation, the story changes slightly. The answer, in my opinion, is that it won't change much. Speed, execution, and all other issues do not change much. Apart from my home servers, why do I still waive the use of Linux at business? Simply there is not much people who have much skills with Linux, and do not know how to use much of it. Adopting Linux requires some skills to teach and acquire. That said ... really? I saw people taking equal amount of time to understand how Windows works before. So why I still be afraid of using Linux? There seems not much answer against the question. Unfortunately I do not have opportunity to run business with Linux and manage with Linux yet. Needs for Linux was way too low six years ago, but now it seems growing. Look at E*Trade, they run application with Linux. Unless customer wish some fancy features of .NET (such as ClickOnce), I think Linux server system should break the cost barrier and usablity a lot more easier than I first expected of. Tatsuhiko Maegawa tatsuhiko(a)jazzman.jp http://blog.jazzman.jp == This is private mail ==

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Mounting drive
by Bob Dove 02 Dec '05

02 Dec '05

Evening all, As a now fully paid up member of the Linux community, my first query is: In Suse 10.0, in media, both my DVD drives appear. One is a DVD ROM, the other a DVD RW. Once, and once only despite it being the drive the system was installed from, the DVD RW won't mount! Now I have discovered Yast which in hardware/CD shows the two drives - twice. Like DVD RW, DVD ROM, DVD ROM, DVD RW. When Yast/CD is opened, neither have mount points. Asking Yast to mount them is done, the message says changes made so I finish. I close Yast, go back to media and only one drive - the DVD ROM - is mounted. Further, my external USB drive is 'locked' if it show which mostly it doesn't. Any suggestions? There also seems to be a number of apps missing; Krita and KOffice for instance. Cheers, BD.

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Suse 10.0
by Bob Dove 02 Dec '05

02 Dec '05

Hi folks, Visited WH last eve, found a couple (well three actually) mags with new Linux distros on the cover. Suse 10.0 and Ubunto 5.10. I bought Linux mag with Suse 10.0 which as I write is half way through a 2 hour 2.5 gB installation. Cover price for Suse £5.99 on DVD, for Ubunto (on 4 cds) £9.99. Did I hear some-one complaining about 'doze bloat? Well, again as I write (her indoors keeps finding jobs for me to do) the installation froze with just 4 mins to go and nothing but nothing would start the machine up again apart from pulling the plug and restarting. 1: "Do you want to install?" 2; "Do you want to update?" Choosing update, the usual questions come up on screen and after a few minutes blank screen and then a red DOS like error message saying errors encountered and back to boot up screen!! I'll report and undoubtedly ask silly questions in due course! Is that another one bites the dust? Cheers, BD.

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Alternatives to TWiki for single user
by Chris Green 02 Dec '05

02 Dec '05

I have installed TWiki on my Linux box and i works well and has got me writing stuff on the web that I'd otherwise not have done. However I suspect that for quite a lot of what I am doing I am going to be the only user so all the 'co-operative' abilities of TWiki are wasted. What I find really useful are the simple ways to enter information into web pages and the simplicity of creating links within the Wiki. Are there any alternatives out there that would be more suited to a single user developing [mostly text] web pages with lots of cross links? I'd like something that can be used remotely via the web but management etc. can be local (even command line). -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

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Open office peculiarity
by Stuart Bailey 01 Dec '05

01 Dec '05

I have oo 2 (as shipped with SuSE 10) installed on my AMD 64 box (also SuSE 10). I keep my important files on a server, that is mounted using NFS. However, OO crashes whenever I try to access these files. If I copy the files to my local hard disk, they work fine. OO is the only app that seems to have a problem - I can access files for attachment in KMail, accounting files in GnuCash and text files in Kate, vi etc. Has anyone else come across this problem? Many thanks, Stuart. -- --------------------------------------- Stuart Bailey BSc (hons) CEng CITP MBCS LinuSoft (Proprietor) Linux Specialist (01953) 601294 (07778) 383739 http://www.linusoft.co.uk ----------------------------------------

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O/S et al.
by Bob Dove 30 Nov '05

30 Nov '05

Hi Folks, I'm glad some of you are as old as me (if not even older)! My first encounter with a 'pooter was at Dixons (for whom I worked at the time) when a Hungarian whiz kid installed the second photo-business 'pooter in the UK - he had already installed the first in Kodak. Dixons 'pooter was intended to reduce overheads by loosing a lot of stock control staff and reduce the usage of trees. (Stanley Kalms was very young, knew every member of his staff by their Christian names and I've a feeling he was a socialist.) Well, as we all now know, 'pooters don't make work forces smaller or save trees - far from it. However, this 'pooter took up the whole of one floor of Dixon House, comprised of floor to ceiling cabinets with tape drives, was in a dust free environment on a concrete floor floating on a rubber layer (Metallastic?) and was tended by a team of white coated, hatted and slippered persons of greater number than the stock control team! However, this 'pooter could do the weeks business in about an hour and was therefore largely unemployed whereas the white coats had to be kept busy - so young Kalms rented out time on his new toy! Many many years later, a very specialist pro photo dealer ran their whole business on a PCW - which encouraged me to buy one for myself - PCW 8256 with green screen. Now of course the PCW was not a 'real' 'pooter, just an electronic typewriter where you could see your mistakes on screen before committing to paper. So, command line operation in CP/M - easy!!! However, the PCW run company was a competitor and the company that I worked for decided they (or at least the 'financial director') would emulate Dixons and install a mainframe machine - some Swedish company who also make cars and flying machines. This was like the Dixons machine intended for stock control and POS and was linked by landline to Kodak who was a major supplier so they could automatically top our stocks up. Naturally, this was expensive, and didn't reduce our overheads. What it did was to allow 14 digit product codes - and yes, 14 digit codes were used. As most brilliant sales persons are like doctors and can't write, they just couldn't cope with 'one roll of Kodachrome part #12354368700912 £5.98.' Prior to POS, £5.98 would have been rung up in the till, with POS, an invoice had to be written. The invoice set of five copies cost about £1.20 per set. A team had to be employed to check all sales invoices to correct product codes and descriptions and our 'human resources department' had to warn and eventually rid us of dyslexic sales persons. The said HRD discovered they could employ two young diploma'd persons for the same salary as one high flying sales bod and we were soon populated with diploma'd know nothings and without a quality sales force... Needless to say said company no longer exists! However, the local library who then conducted all ins and outs on an Acorn still is. My PCW was up graded (by myself) to 512 - that's 512 kB of RAM. (I know machines prior to the PCW ran three apps on 64 Kb), from a single drive to a twin drive, eventually one 3 in and one of those new 720 kB 3.5 in things and lots of 'dongles' for mouse, scanner &c. Eventually, the Amstrad PC 512C replaced the PCW and this was initially a single drive 5.25 floppy drive machine running Locoscript Pro in a form of DOS which was also fitted with a 3.5 in floppy as drive B. Eventually, a 20 mB 'hard card' drive was fitted - so much power, so much space! What's the minimum space required today? Linux SuSe seems on a 'simple' installation to require close on 1 Gb of HDD space. I don't know what the minimum amount of RAM required is but it runs in 512 mB. The PC 512 still resides in my garage - must get it out and fire it up and see what happens! It was replaced by 386, 486, Pentiums et al, currently AMDs. Incidentally, I have a large quantity of 5.25 floppies to dispose of! And I still have Locoscript Pro on my desktop! Now, is that progress? Cheers, BD.

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[ALUG] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 09:26:15AM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > > > > Do you know what a "sub-menu" is ? > > > Do you know how to organize information hierarchically ? > > > > > It's not for me to organise it surely. > > Who else do you expect to do it for you ? You don't seem to like the > default organization provided in your distro, but rather than do something > about it to customize your desk top you choose to bitch about it to the > list. > I don't want anyone to do it for me, I was just saying that menus aren't necessarily the answer. > > If I know the commands I can > > just as easily (and more quickly) type them in at the command line. > > OR you could learn how to customize menus/desktops and make it a "one click" > operation. > For commands that are very infrequently used (but vital) this is overkill to my mind. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 02:05:35PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > I'm now confused about what point you are trying to make. > > > > > I was simply saying that a menu with twenty or thirty entries is fine, > > and useful, but that one with hundreds of entries isn't useful. > > Do you know what a "sub-menu" is ? > Do you know how to organize information hierarchically ? > It's not for me to organise it surely. If I know the commands I can just as easily (and more quickly) type them in at the command line. > > But you don't need a menu entry for every possible command line you may ever > use. ... but where we came in was - 'how do you find that command you don't know about'. I am suggesting that menus don't really help as they (like icons) are pre-configured and can't cover all the possible commands (not command lines, I mean just the names of the utilities) that are available. What I do is to use 'man -k' when I can't remember what the command to do something is. It's *very* rarely that I will find what I want by searching through menus and just about never by using icons. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

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Gooies an all...
by Bob Dove 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

Hi Guys, 1. Summary: GUIs are good if you want them, the command line is better if you know what you are doing. 2. Icons on the screen? Nah, folders with code names! (?) 3. 'Blind' touch typing a command line - or equally blind movement of a mouse cursor? (My problem is that my keyboard is dyslexic and I don't think you can run a spell check on a command line). Well that's how things should be. Consumer choice? Tory Blair seems to be somewhat chummy with BG (who to be fair is distributing some of his absolutely unspendable wealth on good works as opposed to poncing (am I allowed to say that?) holiday accommodation from people (who may or may not need favours or perhaps a title) in exchange for a contribution to 'charity.' Prudence and Charity seem to do well with our chums in 10 & 11. I'm a bit worried however about our nuclear submarines running on 'doze! What I think has to be taken into consideration is that when Joe Bloggs goes into his local 'puter shop on his first buy, inevitably he'll go away with the box with the spec that just covers what he said he wanted to do when he went into said shop (it's for Joe junior to do his homework) - which probably isn't what he really really wanted to do which is run Tomb Raider. But he will almost surely have a box with 'doze pre-loaded. And when he loads the software (apps) of his choice it will barely run - but in happy pointy-clicky ignorance he'll be happy 'til his HDD is absolutely full of 'recyclables' and 'temporary' internet files. Now I know you guys are different and if you are running hardware stores you'll possibly be loading Linux! I'm sure on an equal footing, a good sales person could train Joe to operate either 'doze or 'ux, but there isn't an equal footing or a level playing field. There's a dealer margin on 'doze - if it pre-installed, it still ain't free! I don't know if you guys do any test shopping? I used to wok for a retail chain and often would go into competitors shops to see if they were better salesmen than me and my crew. I still go into PC World and ask questions - which still bring uninformed answers. 'You don't need to know that - just point and click! Linux? What's that? We supply XP Home. We don't sell Macintosh!' However, I have seen boxed Linux in one stationary store - horrendous price. Well, 'it's complicated and the instruction manual is expensive!' Unless Joe develops an interest in alternative O/S - he will just never know there are alternatives. If he gets bitten, he may note that alongside the multitude of magazines on the rack in WH, there are a few Mac and Linux titles. he may even buy one and find the cover disk doesn't run in 'doze. I believe however there are other Euro governments who insist gov business is conducted in 'ux? So what's my point? Linux will not become the obvious and popular alternative to 'doze until your average sales person in the 'puter store can demonstrate that it is equal to 'doze in every aspect that a store browser (window shopper) can get touchy feely pointy clicky with display goods and see that it works. Nobody but nobody will go into your average 'puter store and start typing command lines (excepting you guys of course!) It won't become my replacement until I can run QuarkXPress (and I mean QuarkXPress 'cos it is an interchange format still) and Photoshop CS2. Both of which run beautifully from point and click icons on my desktop! I think that may be six-pennorth! Cheers, BD. NB: I have enjoyed the varied replies to this thread!

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Pointy-clicky
by Bob Dove 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

Hi folks, Have I missed the point? Did Digital Research create the GUI in vain? (DR was before Gates, Jobs or Linus mind). Was the 'desktop' that graphic thingy on screen showing replicas of file folders you could point at with the mouse cursor and click click to open to find your files all in vain? I think not! If it is so bad, why do most Linux distros offer the GUI desktop? Surely booting your machine to view on screen some icons that by pointy-clicky gets you where you want to be to do what you want to do - even play with C++ if that is your wish. Why do it the hard way - even if you can do it the hard way? So it is purer computing - so what??? I suppose if you spend your day typing machine code you may not need the desktop that the 99.999% of computer users do. I can open a directory on a drive, navigate to a program folder, find the exe file or other trigger - I used to do it in CP/M and DOS but why type out a path when you can point and click? The icon is after all a short cut to where you want to be, it is in effect a virtual command line. I think it is the command line mindset that puts most people off Linux and locks 'em into 'doze. If Linux was perceived as 'doze but better and dare I say cheaper ('cos most of it is FREE) but as easy to use via pointy-clicky 'doze style 'desktops then I'm sure there'd be many many more users. Lets face it, most home computers have a form of doze pre-installed so the can switch on and point. They couldn't care two hoots how the magic of pointy-clicky works - just that it works for them. And then when it all falls apart, they call the guru in or go back to PC World. In most cases that's extra profit for some-one! Ain't I a cynic eh? Just my twopen'orth mind! BD.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 01:18:12PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: main-bounces(a)lists.alug.org.uk [mailto:main- > > bounces(a)lists.alug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Chris Green > > Sent: 28 November 2005 13:04 > > To: 'ALUG' > > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47# > > > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:46:32PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a restaurant where the menu is a several hundred page book.... > > > > > > > > > Sounds like heaven to me, but I doubt that's what you intended ? > > > You need to think more about your analogies ;-) > > > > > You got the message! :-) > > Are you sure ? Your post read that you would prefere the version with NO > menu rather than the counter example you put up..... > > I'm now confused about what point you are trying to make. > I was simply saying that a menu with twenty or thirty entries is fine, and useful, but that one with hundreds of entries isn't useful. To cover all the possible commands available at the command line a menu system would have hundreds (thousands?) of entries. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:46:32PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > > Imagine a restaurant where the menu is a several hundred page book.... > > > Sounds like heaven to me, but I doubt that's what you intended ? > You need to think more about your analogies ;-) > You got the message! :-) I was going to write more (hence the ...) but I thought it was fairly obvious. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

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Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47
by Bob Dove 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

Hi Folks, Multitasking in 'doze (or any other O/S); err, doesn't this sort of clog up memory? When, if ever, minimising but leave running an app free up the memory? I am a heavy duty user of Photoshop, working mainly on 20+ mB files. I need to close down everything else when working or one image may (and its parts in cache or on scratch disk) just uses up all memory and I go into an involuntary reboot. Which is of course a real pain! I'm quite happy to have loads of shortcuts on my VDU virtual 'desktop' but don't allow for background running of other apps - even though 'doze frequently changes my prefs to suit itself. For instance, auto-hide task bar has to be reset daily, multiple windows that have been moved and sized via the very top left icon will revert to default. The dreaded MSM messenger 'service' keeps switching itself on again as does the auto-update routine. The desktop and pointy-clicky is fine, a computer that runs at the whim of BG isn't - hence my interest in Linux. However, having to type code on a command line to open OOo leaves me cold. Are you sure all this typing is not just to keep the Grockles in awe? Cheers, BD. ----- Original Message ----- From: <main-request(a)lists.alug.org.uk> To: <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 3:39 PM Subject: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47 > Send main mailing list submissions to > main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > main-request(a)lists.alug.org.uk > > You can reach the person managing the list at > main-owner(a)lists.alug.org.uk > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of main digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Wayne Stallwood) > 2. USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) (Ten) > 3. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Anthony Anson) > 4. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Chris Green) > 5. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Chris Green) > 6. Re: USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) > (Wayne Stallwood) > 7. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Chris Green) > 8. Re: Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Ian bell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:11:07 +0000 > From: Wayne Stallwood <ALUGlist(a)digimatic.plus.com> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <1133010667.12467.128.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 11:07 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > One thing that surprises me is how few Windows users use the multiple > > virtual 'desktops' that are freely available for windows as they are > > for Unix/Linux systems. I suspect it's the 'desktop' paradigm that > > makes this happen, having as many 'desktops' as you want and being > > able to go from one to another instantly just seems wrong if you're > > stuck in the rut of an office desktop. > > I think this is the same reason that most Windows users are still using > Internet Exploiter...they are either simply not aware of the options or > are scared that they may break something by installing such a utility. > > Also a lot of Windows users I know don't tend to multitask...they will > fullscreen one application and work on that, finish save their work and > close it...open something else. > > Actually that is an important difference between OS X, Linux and Windows > > OS X encourages you to leave stuff running even if you have finished > with it...Clicking the close icon simply minimises the application in > the dock (whilst leaving it running) > > With Linux I tend to leave lots of stuff running in various virtual > desktops. At the moment I see that I have left a Windows XP virtual > machine running on desktop 4, couple of terminal sessions on 2, XMMS is > sitting doing nothing on 3 and I am writing this email on 1 with > Evolution...there is also a Serial console open to the Debian installer > running on the Alpha server behind me and Firefox > > Windows tends to encourage (needs really) you to only have applications > open that you need. I find that if you have too much open then User > Interface slowdown and constant interruptions from dialogue boxes > stealing focus makes the system damn near unusable. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:04:13 +0000 > From: Ten <runlevelten(a)gmail.com> > Subject: [ALUG] USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) > To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > Message-ID: <200511261404.16520.runlevelten(a)gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > OK, this is doing my head in. On SuSE 9.2, which I support a few end-users on > around the place as part of my advocacy antics, there is a fairly well-known > problem with some USB mass storage devices. > > If anybody has personally surmounted this problem - or failing that has some > salient ideas about it - or failing that a shoulder to cry on - I'd be hugely > interested to hear about it. > > Now I've had USB dongles working in the past, but due to a bad memory module > hosing my file systems I've had to reinstall and don't have one of those to > check with, so I've no idea whether this is general or specific to the sony > device and suse. > > Issue is this. When plugging in a usb device that is supposed to have its sony > memory stick mounted as a USB mass storage device (specifically a cellphone) > the device is not mountable on the system, it is "offlined". See below. > > The modem device for the phone is detected and configured properly, just no > mass storage device. > > When booting into ubuntu and plugging in the device, everything goes > more-or-less swimmingly. > > I've tried switching to fstab as opposed to subfs, I've tried automatically or > manually mounting (as well as sync/not). > > Any attempt to mount the relevant device results in "not a block device" > errors - whereupon referring to messages reveals it's already been removed > from the system. > > Some log-type goodness: > > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: new full speed USB device using > address 4 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: Product: Sony Ericsson D750 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: Manufacturer: Sony Ericsson > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: SerialNumber: 356576003337234_0 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c: Ignoring extra > header > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: ttyACM0: USB ACM device > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c: Ignoring extra > header > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: cdc_acm 2-2:1.3: ttyACM1: USB ACM device > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: scsi1 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage > devices > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: Vendor: Sony Eri Model: Memory Stick > Rev: 0000 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: Type: Direct-Access > ANSI SCSI revision: 02 > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: SCSI device sda: 248832 512-byte hdwr sectors > (127 MB) > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: sda: Write Protect is off > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: sda: Mode Sense: 00 6a 00 00 > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: sda: assuming drive cache: write through > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen smpppd[6159]: smpppd version 1.50 started > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen sshd[6205]: Server listening on :: port 22. > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: sda:<6>via82xx: Assuming DXS channels with > 48k fixed sample rate. > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: Please try dxs_support=1 or > dxs_support=4 option > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: and report if it works on your > machine. > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:11.5[C] -> GSI 5 > (level, low) -> IRQ 5 > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: PCI: Setting latency timer of device > 0000:00:11.5 to 64 > Nov 18 23:00:49 amonhen kernel: parport0: PC-style at 0x378 > [PCSPP,TRISTATE,EPP] > Nov 18 23:00:49 amonhen kernel: parport0: irq 7 detected > Nov 18 23:00:49 amonhen kernel: lp0: using parport0 (polling). > Nov 18 23:00:51 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6647]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM1 > Nov 18 23:00:51 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6655]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM0 > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6674]: remove tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM0 > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6677]: remove tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM1 > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[6705]: umount block > device /block/sda > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[6705]: remove /dev/sda > from fstab > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6810]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM1 > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6824]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM0 > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/50-hwscan.dev[6869]: new block > device /block/sda > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen kernel: drivers/usb/serial/usb-serial.c: USB Serial > support registered for Generic > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[6884]: mount block > device /block/sda > Nov 18 23:00:58 amonhen kernel: Non-volatile memory driver v1.2 > Nov 18 23:01:00 amonhen kdm: :0[6926]: pam_unix2: session started for user > bcu1, service xdm-np > Nov 18 23:01:01 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[7128]: umount block > device /block/sda/sda1 > Nov 18 23:01:01 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[7128]: remove /dev/sda1 > from fstab > Nov 18 23:01:06 amonhen modprobe: FATAL: Error inserting sonypi > (/lib/modules/2.6.8-24-default/kernel/drivers/char/sonypi.ko): No such device > Nov 18 23:01:10 amonhen kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev fd0, sector 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi: Device offlined - not ready after error > recovery: host 1 channel 0 id 0 lun 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: SCSI error : <1 0 0 0> return code = 0x50000 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 248824 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 31103 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 31103 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: ldm_validate_partition_table(): Disk read > failed. > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: unable to read partition table > > > Oh, also, I have an ati driver which I may tentatively install to get some > games going - at 50 odd MB it's a heavy old file for a dialup connection, so > if anyluggers have copies of ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run they can > provide me with a checksum for, warm fuzzy thanks would abound. :) > > Cheers, > > Ten. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:14:16 GMT > From: Anthony Anson <tony.anson(a)zetnet.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > Message-ID: <313030303230303843886DB873(a)zetnet.co.uk> > > The message <1133010667.12467.128.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> > from Wayne Stallwood <ALUGlist(a)digimatic.plus.com> contains these words: > > > On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 11:07 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > > One thing that surprises me is how few Windows users use the multiple > > > virtual 'desktops' that are freely available for windows as they are > > > for Unix/Linux systems. I suspect it's the 'desktop' paradigm that > > > makes this happen, having as many 'desktops' as you want and being > > > able to go from one to another instantly just seems wrong if you're > > > stuck in the rut of an office desktop. > > > I think this is the same reason that most Windows users are still using > > Internet Exploiter...they are either simply not aware of the options or > > are scared that they may break something by installing such a utility. > > All too many of them are quite unaware that there is any alternative. > May I boast that I have only ever used IE once (outside the system) some > time ago, and that was on a new installation, to go and get Opera. With > Opera, I got Firebird. Before that I was using Netscape. (Got as far as > N4...) > > > Also a lot of Windows users I know don't tend to multitask...they will > > fullscreen one application and work on that, finish save their work and > > close it...open something else. > > I used to, using 3.11, but my Win 2000 box often has half a dozen progs > running, especially if I'm manipulating images or writing html pages. > > > Actually that is an important difference between OS X, Linux and Windows > > > OS X encourages you to leave stuff running even if you have finished > > with it...Clicking the close icon simply minimises the application in > > the dock (whilst leaving it running) > > Never used that. > > > With Linux I tend to leave lots of stuff running in various virtual > > desktops. At the moment I see that I have left a Windows XP virtual > > machine running on desktop 4, couple of terminal sessions on 2, XMMS is > > sitting doing nothing on 3 and I am writing this email on 1 with > > Evolution...there is also a Serial console open to the Debian installer > > running on the Alpha server behind me and Firefox > > All I have ATM is the mail/news software, Nero and a couple of text > files. Writing wibbles on the Windows box I might have Explorer, > Notepad, Pagemill, Arachnophilia, Firefox, Opera, WS_FTP, Nero and > ZIMACS, as well as the two text documents I usually have there for > making notes on. > > > Windows tends to encourage (needs really) you to only have applications > > open that you need. I find that if you have too much open then User > > Interface slowdown and constant interruptions from dialogue boxes > > stealing focus makes the system damn near unusable. > > Not found that, though I do tend to close anything I'm not using, just > in case. It takes longer to save and close everything if the supply goes > on to the UPS... > > -- > Tony > http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:47:21 +0000 > From: Chris Green <chris(a)areti.co.uk> > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <20051126144721.GA6331(a)areti.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 10:46:33PM +0000, Ian bell wrote: > > Chris Green wrote: > > >On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 07:17:21PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote: > > > > > >>On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 13:11 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > >> > > >>>Desktops as such don't hide complexity, they just mask it with a > > >>>different complexity. A simple desktop may hide complexity but then > > >>>so may a simple window manager with a different paradigm, how about > > >>>TWM with a single xterm window on it? > > >> > > >> > > >>So are you against a GUI interface in general and the Desktop concept is > > >>just part of that paradigm ? > > >> > > > > > >No, I'm against the computer pretending that it's something it isn't. > > > > A computer is a tool, a very general purpose tool, a very flexible > > tool and a very programmeable tool. It's appearance can be anything > > its various users want it to be. And if some want it to be a GUI with > > a desktop then it can be. > > > Yes, but all the other possible approaches seem to be disappearing > and, as a result, many, many users are not well served. If the only > accessible idiom is a desktop then the user is the poorer. > > -- > Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) > > "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:52:02 +0000 > From: Chris Green <chris(a)areti.co.uk> > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <20051126145202.GB6331(a)areti.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 01:11:07PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 11:07 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > > One thing that surprises me is how few Windows users use the multiple > > > virtual 'desktops' that are freely available for windows as they are > > > for Unix/Linux systems. I suspect it's the 'desktop' paradigm that > > > makes this happen, having as many 'desktops' as you want and being > > > able to go from one to another instantly just seems wrong if you're > > > stuck in the rut of an office desktop. > > > > I think this is the same reason that most Windows users are still using > > Internet Exploiter...they are either simply not aware of the options or > > are scared that they may break something by installing such a utility. > > > > Also a lot of Windows users I know don't tend to multitask...they will > > fullscreen one application and work on that, finish save their work and > > close it...open something else. > > > Yes, I find that wierd too, the number of people who run everything > full screen. One of the basic powers of a GUI is multiple overlapping > (or maybe tiled) windows and many users aviod using it! > > > > Windows tends to encourage (needs really) you to only have applications > > open that you need. I find that if you have too much open then User > > Interface slowdown and constant interruptions from dialogue boxes > > stealing focus makes the system damn near unusable. > > > At home and at work my approach is to run a windows virtual multi-screen > environment with one of the screens dedicated to my Linux (or at work, > Solaris) desktop. Most of my work goes on in the Linux/Solaris desktop > but it's dead easy to flip over to one of the other screens if/when I > need to run something (other than the X server) under Windows. > > -- > Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) > > "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:52:40 +0000 > From: Wayne Stallwood <ALUGlist(a)digimatic.plus.com> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <1133016760.12467.149.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Sat, 2005-11-26 at 14:04 +0000, Ten wrote: > > OK, this is doing my head in. On SuSE 9.2, which I support a few end-users on > > around the place as part of my advocacy antics, there is a fairly well-known > > problem with some USB mass storage devices. > > > > If anybody has personally surmounted this problem - or failing that has some > > salient ideas about it - or failing that a shoulder to cry on - I'd be hugely > > interested to hear about it. > > Try comparing /drivers/usb/storage/unusual_devs.h in the kernel source > tree on your SuSE and Ubuntu systems. It may be that there is an entry > for that specific device in the later system that was not in the SuSE > kernel. > > I had similar problems with a Pentax Optio S camera where there was a > fix for the previous model but on the new version they had changed the > vendor id's > > > > > Oh, also, I have an ati driver which I may tentatively install to get some > > games going - at 50 odd MB it's a heavy old file for a dialup connection, so > > if anyluggers have copies of ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run they can > > provide me with a checksum for, warm fuzzy thanks would abound. :) > > > Md5 checksum as follows > > 11c881f1558439949d346ae184f9067a ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:57:05 +0000 > From: Chris Green <chris(a)areti.co.uk> > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > Message-ID: <20051126145705.GC6331(a)areti.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 02:14:16PM +0000, Anthony Anson wrote: > > > With Linux I tend to leave lots of stuff running in various virtual > > > desktops. At the moment I see that I have left a Windows XP virtual > > > machine running on desktop 4, couple of terminal sessions on 2, XMMS is > > > sitting doing nothing on 3 and I am writing this email on 1 with > > > Evolution...there is also a Serial console open to the Debian installer > > > running on the Alpha server behind me and Firefox > > > > All I have ATM is the mail/news software, Nero and a couple of text > > files. Writing wibbles on the Windows box I might have Explorer, > > Notepad, Pagemill, Arachnophilia, Firefox, Opera, WS_FTP, Nero and > > ZIMACS, as well as the two text documents I usually have there for > > making notes on. > > > As I said earlier in the thread my tendency is to have a number of > rxvt (lightweight xterm) window running. I use mutt for mail in one > of them and tin for news in another. I have firefox running in a > screen of its own (with an rxvt window behind). The occasional other > application I need I tend to run by typing its name in a terminal > window. I have a GUI version of my editor (xvile) that I pop up for > program development etc. > > -- > Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) > > "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:40:01 +0000 > From: Ian bell <ianbell(a)ukfsn.org> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <438881D1.6070500(a)ukfsn.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Chris Green wrote: > > >>> > >>>No, I'm against the computer pretending that it's something it isn't. > >> > >>A computer is a tool, a very general purpose tool, a very flexible > >>tool and a very programmeable tool. It's appearance can be anything > >>its various users want it to be. And if some want it to be a GUI with > >>a desktop then it can be. > >> > > > > Yes, but all the other possible approaches seem to be disappearing > > and, as a result, many, many users are not well served. If the only > > accessible idiom is a desktop then the user is the poorer. > > > > I see no evidance of that. The console is still available even under > windows and if anything, the number of GUI interfaces under Linux is > increasing. > > Ian > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > > > End of main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47 > ***********************************

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