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contact name at lugww
by Syd Hancock 15 Jul '05

15 Jul '05

Hi all I have received an email reminding me that I am the maintainer for the entry for ALUG on LUG World Wide - see: http://lugww.counter.li.org/groups.cms?&cc=GB&rc=EE If someone else would like to take this over please contact me off-list and I'll pass on the login details for editing the entry. Otherwise it will probably be allowed it to lapse if there is no interest. Please note - do contact me by email (as well as informing the list) for a quicker response as I simply browse the list online from time to time these days. Hope all is well in ALUG-land and I'll try and come to the Reindeer one of these months. Syd

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2nd call: Software Freedom Day 2005
by MJ Ray 14 Jul '05

14 Jul '05

Thanks to the people who have emailed offering help with Software Freedom Day on Saturday 10 September 2005. I'd like a few more people to make things easier for everyone. If you're willing to help, please email me or ask me this evening. Those who have offered so far: I'll reply to everyone this weekend with news. Thanks. More info: http://softwarefreedomday.org/ -- MJR/slef

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RE: [ALUG] Ubuntu [was GZ files]
by Keith Watson 13 Jul '05

13 Jul '05

> From: Wayne Stallwood Sent: 12 July 2005 23:47 > > Also I would consider Ubuntu, Ubuntu is essentially Debian > made easy, it has a reduced package selection (although there > is nothing stopping you adding debian packages) but (in my > experience) has better hardware support out of the box and > offers a slightly more polished initial configuration. > > I was pure SuSE on the desktop from about 2001, but like you > I felt that I was being insulated from the system, also I > fancied a change. So I moved my main machine over to Ubuntu a > few months back, One of my laptops and a machine in my office > are now Ubuntu as well. Generally I am pretty happy with the > changeover (the main problems I have had are > AMD64 specific and therefore may not affect you) > I'd also recommend the Ubuntu distro. I recently set up a simple system for a friend and (as they didn't have a lot of money to spend on software) set them up a Linux based system using Ubuntu 5.04. I was really impressed not only by the ease of install (it picked up all their installed hardware perfectly) but by the familiar way the desktop was organized. My friend has a minimal knowledge of computers and their only experience was using the usual Windows set-ups at work. Their main requirement was for e-mail, and the fact that the Evolution mail client has such an Outlook feel to it was a big plus factor for them. To keep the running costs down I set them up a simple dial up connection to a pay as you go provider (ukfsn) and talked them through the modem set-up with no problem. They made the transition, despite some initial reservations, painlessly. It just worked and in a way they were familiar with. As they said "I was worried about using a system that wasn't Windows but this is just as good as Windows" (immediately followed by "Why are you hitting me?" :o) ). I was so impressed I bought the company... er.. no.. I was so impressed that, despite being a dyed-in-the-wool Debian purist, I am in the process of rebuilding my system using Ubuntu (OK so it's just Debian with it's going out clothes on). If you are thinking of installing Ubuntu a couple of invaluable sites are; The Unofficial Ubuntu 5.04 Starter Guide <http://ubuntuguide.org/> (setting up Ubuntu is easy but this makes it a doddle) Mr Bass's Ubuntu Linux page <http://www.mrbass.org/linux/ubuntu/> (a good site for those with a little more than basic Linux experience - the root site www.mrbass.org is also worth a look) Regards, Keith ____________ The saddest thing in the world is someone who has sight but no vision. - Helen Keller

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Making backups
by Peter Hunter 12 Jul '05

12 Jul '05

I am about to re-install Suse 9.3 Prof. (it didn't fully install last time as a couple of the disks I made from the Internet download were corrupt or just faulty). I have managed to save my files (docs) etc., but how do I make a backup of my email messages and settings? I am running Evolution inGnome 2.10 if that helps. Many thanks peter

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Great website
by Peter Hunter 12 Jul '05

12 Jul '05

If any new linux users are interested, I have just happened across a triffik website. It's: www.linuxcommand.org I have been viewing it, and trying out lots of the things it's been teaching me. I am really getting to grips with all this stuff now. Still loads to try and to learn, so I'll get back to it now. Well worth a look though. Regards Peter

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Accessing CD's
by Peter Hunter 12 Jul '05

12 Jul '05

Well, I know that several of you have been helping me with this. But yesterday I put a CD in the drive and after a few seconds it mounted and I had full access to all the files. So I tried this with several other discs in both drives and all seems to be fine. Thanks for all the help, I have been learning loads over the past week. I'm glad I joined the group. Shame I can't get to the meeting and buy you all a beer. I'll just have to email you a picture of one, eill that do!!! Regards Peter

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Re: [ALUG] Making backups
by Peter Hunter 11 Jul '05

11 Jul '05

On Sun, 2005-07-10 at 20:43 +0100, beb wrote: > Peter Hunter wrote: > > On Sun, 2005-07-10 at 19:21 +0100, beb wrote: > > > >>Peter Hunter wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Sorry, whilst I am at it, there is one more. I tried to re-install my > >>>backups from the CD I burned. But I cannot mount the CD or DVD drives as > >>>I don't have permission (as a user). I can re-boot the machine and log > >>>in as root, and then mount the drive and copy the files over, and then > >>>re-boot as user. But if I do that I still can't access fy info (address > >>>book etc.) as they 'belong' to root! So, how do I mount the drives as > >>>user? > >>> > >> > >>Have you sorted this yet? If not, then... > >> > >>Chances are your username isn't attached to the correct groups. Could > >>you post the output of 'ls -l /media' (I think SuSE mounts all the discs > >>there) so we can see which group the cdrom belongs to and the output of > >>'less /etc/groups | grep username (where username is your username (bet > >>you couldn't guess that one <grin>)) so we can see which groups *you* > >>belong too please? > >> > >>beb > > > > > > > > > > peter@linux:~> ls -l /media > > total 0 > > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 48 2005-03-23 15:30 bmp_audio_cd > > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 48 2005-07-08 18:41 cdrecorder > > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 48 2005-07-08 18:41 dvdrecorder > > drwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 2005-07-10 16:06 floppy > > drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 48 2005-03-22 18:54 xmms_audio_cd > > peter@linux:~> less /etc/groups|grep peter > > /etc/groups: No such file or directory > > peter@linux:~> > > > > > > Does this help? Looks like it all belongs to root to me. > > > > Peter > > > > > > Whoops, that should be /etc/group, not groups :-) > > OK, if you look in /etc/fstab there should be lines with > /media/cdrecorder and /media/dvdrecorder on them. The first column of > each of these lines should have something like /dev/hdc on them eg. mine > is... > > /dev/hdc /media/cdrom0 udf,iso9660 ro,user,noauto 0 0 > /dev/hdd /media/cdrom1 udf,iso9660 ro,user,noauto 0 0 > > The directories in /dev/ is what linux automatically assigns hardware > to, which is then linked to something a bit more memorable > (/media/cdrecorder etc.). I can't explain it well, but have a look in > your unix book for stuff about 'devices'). > > Could you please do 'ls -l /dev/hdc' (substituting /dev/hdc for whatever > your fstab has in the first column). Oh, and that 'less etc/group | grep > peter' again. > > Not sure I explained that well. If not, mail me your /etc/fstab and I'll > try to use that to explain a bit better. > > beb peter@linux:~> less /etc/group | grep peter dialout:x:16:peter video:x:33:peter peter@linux:~> This is the contents of the fstab file /dev/hdb2 / reiserfs acl,user_xattr 1 1 /dev/hda1 /windows/C ntfs ro,users,gid=users,umask=0002,nls=utf8 0 0 /dev/hda5 /windows/D ntfs ro,users,gid=users,umask=0002,nls=utf8 0 0 /dev/hdb1 swap swap pri=42 0 0 devpts /dev/pts devpts mode=0620,gid=5 0 0 proc /proc proc defaults 0 0 usbfs /proc/bus/usb usbfs noauto 0 0 sysfs /sys sysfs noauto 0 0 /dev/cdrecorder /media/cdrecorder subfs noauto,fs=cdfss,ro,procuid,nosuid,nodev,exec,iocharset=utf8 0 0 /dev/dvdrecorder /media/dvdrecorder subfs noauto,fs=cdfss,ro,procuid,nosuid,nodev,exec,iocharset=utf8 0 0 /dev/fd0 /media/floppy subfs noauto,fs=floppyfss,procuid,nodev,nosuid,sync 0 0 Peter >

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Audacity
by Peter Hunter 11 Jul '05

11 Jul '05

Well, I have downloaded audacity in it's rpm format. Installed it using Yast. It has an icon on the taskbar, and is listed in the programs menu under: Applications, Multimedia, Media Editing, Audacity. If I click on the icon on the taskbar, or in the menu, I get a very short (half a second) burst of disc activity, and then nothing. The program doesn't load. So what have I done wrong. Any help or advice appreciated. Regards, peter

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ALUG Social Meeting: Thurs 14 July 2005 from 7.30/8.00pm
by Brett Parker 11 Jul '05

11 Jul '05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, The next ALUG Social meeting will be held on Thursday the 14 July 2005 in The Reindeer on Dereham Road in Norwich. It should be starting somewhere between 7.30pm and 8.00pm. I should be there from 7.30pm, unless I get involved with watching something on telly, in which case I might be running a little late ;) Photos of the usual suspects can be found from the following URLs: http://www.earth.li/~noodles/Photos/2004-08-ALUG/ http://www.earth.li/~noodles/Photos/2004-11-ALUG-Syleham/ http://www.earth.li/~noodles/Photos/2005-01-ALUG-Xmas/ Directions to The Reindeer can be found from the ALUG site at the following URL: http://www.alug.org.uk/venues/reindeer.html I know that this time we'll be missing a Noodles as he's currently in HEL having fun (or rather, he's at debconf, so he's getting drunk with some of the nicest developers out there. The git.). Haven't had any confirmations so far, but I would suspect the following people to randomly turn up... Person (irc nick) ----------------- Me - Brett (iDunno) Martijn (mak) Paul (paul_c) Adam (quinophex) Everyone is, as usual, more than welcome to turn up (hey, they're even more welcome to buy me beer... hmmmm. beer.). Thanks, - -- Brett Parker web: http://www.sommitrealweird.co.uk/ email: iDunno(a)sommitrealweird.co.uk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC0ofUEh8oWxevnjQRAizKAJ0bWj20yBbJtNK1D6OQ8CbpeHGGbACfT6Rd 3ZIylHc5+zdaEsQ65jErBd0= =TEjm -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Weekly IRC reminder
by Brett Parker 11 Jul '05

11 Jul '05

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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Audio Recording Splitter
by Peter Hunter 10 Jul '05

10 Jul '05

Hi, After having connected my Hi-Fi system to the computer, I have been recording a serias of talks from the radio, using gaRecorder, and saved the one long file (all talks) as a .wav (wave) file. What I need to do now is to split the one big file into several small files - individual talks. Once I've done that I intend burning these onto a CD that I can listen to in the car. I'm sure I can do that with K3B, so that part of it isn't a problem. What I need to know is: Is there a Linux program for splitting wave files? Under Windoze I used to use a free program called 'Wave Splitter'. Regards peter

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Nearly new member
by Roy Child 10 Jul '05

10 Jul '05

Hello all I have been lurking on the mailing list for ages and I thought it was about time I introduced myself. I was wondering if any in the group have a background in Acorn computers. I live in Cambridge and my tiny family business in Yeldham has run on several Acorn computers for many years. Now, aided by Nick Daniels in Linux evangelist mode, I have two or three boxes running Suse and doing excellent service. Why do I like LInux? Well I like the flexibility. When and if I get the hang of it I feel I will be in control and be able to mould the system to suit me and the way I work (and play). I do not want to be fitted into the rigid framework demanded by win software. I also like the security. Like many small retail businesses I have (on a temporary basis!) customer's credit card numbers and their names and addresses on a hard drive. If you were a customer would you like your card details to be sitting on a windows machine connected to the internet? Far too many online retailers use windows. There the nice feeling that Linux software has been created and maintained by thousands of amazing people all over the world working and cooperating for the common good. Last but not least, Linux users seem to like beer! Best regards to all in ALUG Roy Child -- Peter Child Woodturning Supplies Tools, equipment, materials for woodturning and pyrography http://www.peterchild.co.uk

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Open Tech 2005 details
by Karamoon 09 Jul '05

09 Jul '05

Opentech schedule is now out: http://www.ukuug.org/events/opentech2005/schedule/ You must pre-register. People who fail to attend Opentech forfeit any right to complain about the UK stuff ever again. Matthew __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/

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Missing network adapter
by Wayne Stallwood 08 Jul '05

08 Jul '05

I've just upgraded my Fujitsu Lifebook P1120 from 802.11b to 802.11g I've removed the original prism2 based card (that also had an integrated modem) and inserted an Intel 2915abg. This card is I believe just an OEM version of the 2200. ubuntu had no issues whatsoever with the new card, but since installing it my wireless lan has moved from eth1 to eth0 and the Ethernet port that was on eth0 has vanished. Any ideas on how I get the Ethernet port back on eth0 and the wireless back on eth1 Cheers Wayne

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OSS and Indy Media
by Karamoon 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

On Saturday 16th July there is an event in Norwich which may be of interest to many Aluggers. The event is EASF, a one-day conference about bad stuff that's going on and how to fix it. There will be talks, workshops, documentaries and discssions. Of particular interest to Aluggers will be the launch of Norwich Indy Media(which will utilise lots of Linux and other OSS), discussions about ID cards, how people can regain control of technology. If there is interest, we could have a meeting there about Software Freedom Day which is coming up in September. All in all it will be a very interesting day and a good chance to promote Linux and OSS to peopel who could benefit greatly from using it. Matthew __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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Linux Format
by David Arrowsmith 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

Hello Folks I have a large mound of Linux Format Magazines with disks I would like to give away, before I move house. Would be a shame to recycle them so if you live in west Norwich and want to pick them up let me know. David chasboz(a)dsl.pipex.com

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Re: [ALUG] Making backups
by Peter Hunter 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 18:57 +0100, Peter Onion wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 17:05 +0100, Peter Hunter wrote: > > > > > I've been using nothing but evolution. I have many many messages and an > > address book full of email addresses. How can I be sending emails if I > > am not using evolution? And please don't suggest I am using Kmail > > because I tried that in a previous installation and didn't like it. > > Last time I tried it , it sucked (but that was a few years ago !) > > > > > Which version of evolution ? Things did change between the 1.9.X and > the 2.0.X releases, so maybe that's why things arn't were I would expect > them to be (I have 2.0.1 here on Suse 9.2) > > Peter I'm glad I'm not the only one who didn't like it Peter. I have just checked, it's 2.2.1 Peter > >

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Anyone interested in helping?
by Mike Banahan 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

I'm asking to see if anyone can lend some technical assistance ... I don't think this will count as off-topic or the wrong kind of posting, but if it does, I apologise in advance. Cutter (http://cutterproject.co.uk) is unusual but loosely similar to some other projects in the Open Source world in that it's there to provide SUPPORT not software. We think that in markets such as schools, it's crucial to be able to purchase support for something close to an off-the-shelf or turnkey solution. Telling schools to roll their own and support themselves is not going to lead to large-scale adoption in a short timescale. We are having some initial success and generating a significant amount of publicity for what we are doing. There is something deeply satisfying about seeing classrooms full of youngsters using predominantly Free Software on their desktops. We think we have a good idea about what's needed by consumers in this area. We are committed to publishing any original software that we write and adhering to the the GPL where we further develop packages like LTSP. It would be great to have a large stream of revenue that allows us to take on full-time paid developers. We aren't that far down the road yet unfortunately. At the same time, there is a number of technical issues that we want to address and are appealing for help with. We can provide some very modest funding if necessary and would like to hear from developers with good development skills who would be interested to work with us on ironing out some of the knottier matters and liaising with other similar efforts. Amongst the items on the technical roadmap at present are: - Setting up a managed Subversion repository - Improving sound support on LTSP thin clients (a challenge) - LDAP configuration of thin clients (Perl/MySQL/LDAP) - LDAP configuration of users (Perl/MySQL/LDAP) - Productising the 'grabber' classroom/terminal management tool (C++/Qt) We have to produce highly reliable software, so releasing stuff at alpha level doesn't cut it. There is a 'project office' of sorts in Cottenham near Cambridge (UK), so it would seem to make sense to focus on people who are in the area to make it easier to hold occasional face-to-face meetings. We'd be happy to hear from anyone who thinks they might enjoy working on a project that has a combination of Free and commercial imperatives intermixed. Sorry this is so long! Mike Banahan

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Formatting floppy
by Bob Dove 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

Hi folks, From desktop (if you use it) look at your mounted disks, drop down menu will invite you to format floppy if one is in your floppy (A) drive. Only successful thing I've done in Linux so far! And by the way, thanks to those amongst you who offered advice on writing to NTFS formated (windoze) HDs, I'm afraid I'm not that far advanced in Linux knowledge to know what you are talking about. Old dogs n that! Cheers, BD. NB: This is from 'live' SuSe 9.3 using KDE?

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RE: [ALUG] New user
by Keith Watson 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

> From: Wayne Stallwood Sent: 06 July 2005 22:11 > > On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 10:43 +0100, Brett Parker wrote: > > > > Before Amstrad got their grubby paws on it, then :) God, I remember > > the days of autoexec.bat and config.sys, and am very glad > that I don't > > have to deal with that any more :) > > Actually I sort of miss those days. > > I remember hours of fun trying to balance loaded TSR's with > available (and pretty scarce) RAM. Oh and remember the > different areas of Ram Extended and Expanded wasn't it ? PC > Tools and early versions of Norton Utils ? > > Not forgetting having to use Debug to low level format Hard > Drives and manually parking heads before moving machines. > > OK you're right it wasn't that much fun was it :-) <nostalgia> Ahh!! </nostalgia> and let's not forget punched cards and..... paper tape. Oh! those were the days. Regards, Keith ____________ EGOTIST, n. - A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me. - Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary

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RE: [ALUG] Re: New user
by Keith Watson 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

> From: Chris Green Sent: 07 July 2005 09:38 > > On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 09:12:06AM +0100, Peter Hunter wrote: > > Yep, you're quite right Keith, we should stop living in the > past. But > > it is nice to talk about these things at times. > > > > Later on I worked on many of the early DEC machines, PDP-8, PDP-12 (my > speciality) and PDP-11. At that time all except the PDP-12 > (which was a bit of an oddity) had to be booted by manually > entering a simple paper tape loader in binary using the front > panel switches and then loading the rest of the startup > programs from paper tape. Ahh, we used to DREAM of being able to "boot using a simple paper tape loader in binary using the front panel switches and then loading the rest of the startup programs from paper tape" :o) Mind you as someone of similar vintage and background to Chris I can't do too much leg pulling. Do you remember the metallic 'paper' tape that was used for things like boot routines and compilers etc.? Used to be coloured on one side (red, green, blue) and silver or gold on the other. Made great Christmas decorations. Regards, Keith ____________ To know that you know, and to know that you don't know - that is the real wisdom. - Confucius

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New user
by Peter Hunter 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

Hi all, but Bret and Adam especially, I have been reading the post on this subject and am really worried now about joining IRC and asking for help. Like Peter I have also used PC/M, in fact I started with the very early Spectrums from Sir Clive. I have also talked people through (over amateur radio) editing Autoexec.bat and Config.sys files, sometimes over and over again. Like many other users I am new to LINUX, not new to computers. Therefore I EXPECT to make mistakes, how else can I learn? If I ask 'how do I edit this config file' I want you to tell me just that, not have me email it to you and you email the edited file back, how on earth can I learn anything from that? After all, if I wanted to put a plug on a new bit of coax I wouldn't send it to someone else to do for me! Maybe some would!! Please, please, please treat me as a new LINUX user and not as a complete dork. Regards Peter

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Taking risks with other peoples machines
by Peter Onion 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

I do hope that the wrecklessness with which people are treating other peoples machines on the IRC channel at the moment doesn't result in the loss of anyones important data. As far as I'm concerned getting a less than expert user to edit /etc/fstab via instructions on IRC is asking for trouble. Peter O

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RE: [ALUG] What I was worried about
by Keith Watson 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

> From: John Woodard Sent: 06 July 2005 12:19 > > > From: Ten Sent: 06 July 2005 11:28 > > > > At the risk of invoking Godwin, this is exactly how Hitler used to > > behave in IRC. > > > > > > Sorry, I had to say that, it's my condition... anyway.. > > May that put to death what is becoming a stale thread. > > Just for those who aren't quite so familiar with the > Nazi/Hitler/Godwin thing see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law > > Cheers, > BJ Ah, but doesn't Quirk's exception apply in this case? Regards, Keith ____________ 'I can see nobody on the road.' said Alice. - 'I only wish I had such eyes,' said the King - 'to be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too!' - Lewis Carroll

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FW: [ALUG] Software patents
by Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

I have received the following via ALUG and pass it on for the benefit of others. Not yet the best possible news, but an important landmark! Best wishes to all, Ted. -----FW: <E1Dq8Eu-0003TP-00(a)terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk>----- Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:40:47 +0100 Sender: main-admin(a)lists.alug.org.uk From: Nick Daniels <nick(a)danielsn.freeserve.co.uk> To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk Subject: [ALUG] Software patents Maybe only temporary but: EU Parliament bins software patent bill In brief The European Parliament has voted by a massive majority to reject the software patents directive, formally known as the Directive on the Patentability of Computer Implemented Inventions. The vote to scrap the bill was passed by a margin of 648 votes to 14, with 18 abstentions. The Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure (FFII) says the rejection is a logical response to the Commission and Council's refusal to take parliament's will into consideration. Anti-software patent campaigner Florian Muller argues that today's vote was prompted by events back in February, when the parliament's committee of legal affairs, JURI, voted for a restart of the legislative process. That vote was flatly ignored by the European Commission, which decided instead to move on to a second reading. "A nightmare is over," Muller says. "Next time around, let's honestly discuss the pros and cons of pure software patents, and then we can get a great directive that won't die a dishonourable death like this." According to Muller, MEPs are divided about what should happen next. The Conservative group has called for a news proposal from teh Commission, while the Greens would like the parliamentary vote to be interpretted as a final rejection of the bill. "Before any next step, we need a period of reflection, and a proper economic policy debate. It is not like we've accomplished everything here. Ideally, we want a good directive, but at this stage no directive was the best directive we could hope for," he told us.® http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/06/eu_bins_swpat/ Regards - Nick Daniels _______________________________________________ main(a)lists.alug.org.uk http://www.alug.org.uk/ http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding(a)nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 06-Jul-05 Time: 13:43:16 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

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