- main - earth.li

RE: [ALUG] New user
by Keith Watson 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

> From: Wayne Stallwood Sent: 06 July 2005 22:11 > > On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 10:43 +0100, Brett Parker wrote: > > > > Before Amstrad got their grubby paws on it, then :) God, I remember > > the days of autoexec.bat and config.sys, and am very glad > that I don't > > have to deal with that any more :) > > Actually I sort of miss those days. > > I remember hours of fun trying to balance loaded TSR's with > available (and pretty scarce) RAM. Oh and remember the > different areas of Ram Extended and Expanded wasn't it ? PC > Tools and early versions of Norton Utils ? > > Not forgetting having to use Debug to low level format Hard > Drives and manually parking heads before moving machines. > > OK you're right it wasn't that much fun was it :-) <nostalgia> Ahh!! </nostalgia> and let's not forget punched cards and..... paper tape. Oh! those were the days. Regards, Keith ____________ EGOTIST, n. - A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me. - Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary

6 6

RE: [ALUG] Re: New user
by Keith Watson 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

> From: Chris Green Sent: 07 July 2005 09:38 > > On Thu, Jul 07, 2005 at 09:12:06AM +0100, Peter Hunter wrote: > > Yep, you're quite right Keith, we should stop living in the > past. But > > it is nice to talk about these things at times. > > > > Later on I worked on many of the early DEC machines, PDP-8, PDP-12 (my > speciality) and PDP-11. At that time all except the PDP-12 > (which was a bit of an oddity) had to be booted by manually > entering a simple paper tape loader in binary using the front > panel switches and then loading the rest of the startup > programs from paper tape. Ahh, we used to DREAM of being able to "boot using a simple paper tape loader in binary using the front panel switches and then loading the rest of the startup programs from paper tape" :o) Mind you as someone of similar vintage and background to Chris I can't do too much leg pulling. Do you remember the metallic 'paper' tape that was used for things like boot routines and compilers etc.? Used to be coloured on one side (red, green, blue) and silver or gold on the other. Made great Christmas decorations. Regards, Keith ____________ To know that you know, and to know that you don't know - that is the real wisdom. - Confucius

5 5

New user
by Peter Hunter 07 Jul '05

07 Jul '05

Hi all, but Bret and Adam especially, I have been reading the post on this subject and am really worried now about joining IRC and asking for help. Like Peter I have also used PC/M, in fact I started with the very early Spectrums from Sir Clive. I have also talked people through (over amateur radio) editing Autoexec.bat and Config.sys files, sometimes over and over again. Like many other users I am new to LINUX, not new to computers. Therefore I EXPECT to make mistakes, how else can I learn? If I ask 'how do I edit this config file' I want you to tell me just that, not have me email it to you and you email the edited file back, how on earth can I learn anything from that? After all, if I wanted to put a plug on a new bit of coax I wouldn't send it to someone else to do for me! Maybe some would!! Please, please, please treat me as a new LINUX user and not as a complete dork. Regards Peter

6 5

Taking risks with other peoples machines
by Peter Onion 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

I do hope that the wrecklessness with which people are treating other peoples machines on the IRC channel at the moment doesn't result in the loss of anyones important data. As far as I'm concerned getting a less than expert user to edit /etc/fstab via instructions on IRC is asking for trouble. Peter O

9 17

RE: [ALUG] What I was worried about
by Keith Watson 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

> From: John Woodard Sent: 06 July 2005 12:19 > > > From: Ten Sent: 06 July 2005 11:28 > > > > At the risk of invoking Godwin, this is exactly how Hitler used to > > behave in IRC. > > > > > > Sorry, I had to say that, it's my condition... anyway.. > > May that put to death what is becoming a stale thread. > > Just for those who aren't quite so familiar with the > Nazi/Hitler/Godwin thing see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law > > Cheers, > BJ Ah, but doesn't Quirk's exception apply in this case? Regards, Keith ____________ 'I can see nobody on the road.' said Alice. - 'I only wish I had such eyes,' said the King - 'to be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too!' - Lewis Carroll

1 0

FW: [ALUG] Software patents
by Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

I have received the following via ALUG and pass it on for the benefit of others. Not yet the best possible news, but an important landmark! Best wishes to all, Ted. -----FW: <E1Dq8Eu-0003TP-00(a)terry.blackcatnetworks.co.uk>----- Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:40:47 +0100 Sender: main-admin(a)lists.alug.org.uk From: Nick Daniels <nick(a)danielsn.freeserve.co.uk> To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk Subject: [ALUG] Software patents Maybe only temporary but: EU Parliament bins software patent bill In brief The European Parliament has voted by a massive majority to reject the software patents directive, formally known as the Directive on the Patentability of Computer Implemented Inventions. The vote to scrap the bill was passed by a margin of 648 votes to 14, with 18 abstentions. The Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure (FFII) says the rejection is a logical response to the Commission and Council's refusal to take parliament's will into consideration. Anti-software patent campaigner Florian Muller argues that today's vote was prompted by events back in February, when the parliament's committee of legal affairs, JURI, voted for a restart of the legislative process. That vote was flatly ignored by the European Commission, which decided instead to move on to a second reading. "A nightmare is over," Muller says. "Next time around, let's honestly discuss the pros and cons of pure software patents, and then we can get a great directive that won't die a dishonourable death like this." According to Muller, MEPs are divided about what should happen next. The Conservative group has called for a news proposal from teh Commission, while the Greens would like the parliamentary vote to be interpretted as a final rejection of the bill. "Before any next step, we need a period of reflection, and a proper economic policy debate. It is not like we've accomplished everything here. Ideally, we want a good directive, but at this stage no directive was the best directive we could hope for," he told us.® http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/06/eu_bins_swpat/ Regards - Nick Daniels _______________________________________________ main(a)lists.alug.org.uk http://www.alug.org.uk/ http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! --------------End of forwarded message------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding(a)nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 06-Jul-05 Time: 13:43:16 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

1 0

Re: Floppy
by Peter Hunter 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

OKay everyone, thanks for the help and advice. It's all done now. That's one thing I will *never* forget. Peter

1 0

Floppy
by Peter Hunter 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

I know this is a stupid question, but how do I format a floppy? I.m using Gnome in Suse 9.3 Prof. I've looked in all the system stuff and Yast etc., but can't find any way of doing this. I know it must be really simple, and I'm going to feel a right twit afterwards, but please. someone put me out of my missery. Peter

5 5

Software patents
by Nick Daniels 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

Maybe only temporary but: EU Parliament bins software patent bill In brief The European Parliament has voted by a massive majority to reject the software patents directive, formally known as the Directive on the Patentability of Computer Implemented Inventions. The vote to scrap the bill was passed by a margin of 648 votes to 14, with 18 abstentions. The Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure (FFII) says the rejection is a logical response to the Commission and Council's refusal to take parliament's will into consideration. Anti-software patent campaigner Florian Muller argues that today's vote was prompted by events back in February, when the parliament's committee of legal affairs, JURI, voted for a restart of the legislative process. That vote was flatly ignored by the European Commission, which decided instead to move on to a second reading. "A nightmare is over," Muller says. "Next time around, let's honestly discuss the pros and cons of pure software patents, and then we can get a great directive that won't die a dishonourable death like this." According to Muller, MEPs are divided about what should happen next. The Conservative group has called for a news proposal from teh Commission, while the Greens would like the parliamentary vote to be interpretted as a final rejection of the bill. "Before any next step, we need a period of reflection, and a proper economic policy debate. It is not like we've accomplished everything here. Ideally, we want a good directive, but at this stage no directive was the best directive we could hope for," he told us.® http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/06/eu_bins_swpat/ Regards - Nick Daniels

1 0

Pedantry
by Bob Dove 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

Hi folks, Wreckless means you don't have wreck, reckless however is something we should never be! Sorry for being a pedant! BD.

4 3

Re: [ALUG] What I was worried about
by Sunflowerinrain 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

> Peter Onion <Peter.Onion(a)btinternet.com> wrote... > > So my not very well put point is that when "diving in" to help a new > user to fix problems with their system, it is not always appropriate to > tell them to do it the way you would do it yourself. > > In last nights situation I think it would have been much better to > suggest to wildfire_cs that they email a copy of /etc/fstab to either > iDunno or quinophex, for them to then make the required changes and > email back the changed file. wildfire_cs could then save the original > and replace it with the edited version and bingo problem solved. I think this would be a good way to do support usually, but in this case, wildfire is trying to learn how to do things himself. That's his reason for messing about with installing and configuring things, and getting a working system set up by someone else wouldn't teach him. eli

1 0

Ubuntu Breezy
by Wayne Stallwood 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

I was just setting up my little Fujitsu for a Ubuntu net install (My Fujitsu has little bootable removable media capability without the PCMCIA CDROM drive which I don't have) when I noticed that within the last few days a tree has appeared here ftp://archive.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/dists/ for Breezy (the next release, scheduled for October) Does this mean I can perform a Net install of Breezy ? (all the bits to actually start the installation seem to be there) Does anyone know if the package list is complete (just Beta) or if it is still being built. I would try it, but sadly because of the way I messed with the previous SuSE installations Grub to boot the installer images, once I have told the installer to nuke the partition there isn't a simple way back. I just hope that if there is a full Breezy installation to be had I can get to complete the base installation before the Slashdot crowd get to hear and kill the mirror.

1 0

IRC
by Peter Hunter 06 Jul '05

06 Jul '05

Hi, As someone who is new to Linux (even though I have been using PC's since DOS 2.1 on a 'then' modern machine) and I've been building my own machines since about MS/PC DOS 3.3. I've never worked in the IT industry. I used to write about using computers in conjunction with amateur (HAM) radio for Practical Wireless, but again, that was all DOS and Windows. A few years ago I added Apple Mac's to my hobby and all but dumped Microsoft OS. However, I have now found Linux and am loving everything about the whole concept of what it stands for. I have been reading the threads of this latest IRC meeting and feel I could benefit a grat deal from this. I don't think I could make it EVERY monday evening, or stay for the entire meeting. This is because I am the main carer for my severely disabled wife who has MS, so her needs come first. However, I would like to 'join in' even if it's only to listen and learn. So, what is it? And, how do I join? Best regards, Peter

3 3

Re: [ALUG] Taking risks with other peoples machines
by David Reynolds 05 Jul '05

05 Jul '05

Peter, > I do hope that the wrecklessness with which people are treating other > peoples machines on the IRC channel at the moment doesn't result in the > loss of anyones important data. I think you missed the beginning of the conversation (which has been going on for a few days) where wildfire_cs explained that this was a new machine with a clean Ubuntu installation and hence no data to lose. > As far as I'm concerned getting a less than expert user to > edit /etc/fstab via instructions on IRC is asking for trouble. As far as I'm concerned, they were being very careful and telling wildfire_cs how to mount the ntfs partition read-only and hence no data would be lost from that partition only. Just my 2 cents, but people are generally not irresponsible with their advice in IRC and wouldn't tell a 'less than expert user' anything that would endanger their system Dave -- David Reynolds david(a)reynoldsfamily.org.uk

1 0

Digi-SLRs
by Bob Dove 05 Jul '05

05 Jul '05

Hi Adam and others, Firstly, I have no experience with dye-sub other than test prints Kodak mail me from time to time. All the Kodak prints are colourful subjects but none with Caucasian skin tones which is of course for a portrait photographer the test. Canon Digi-SLR 6 mP; this should be giving results akin to a similar spec film SLR with the obvious rider than unless you are using a Canon with the full format CMOS sensor your EOS lenses are not going to give their best. Most digi-slrs are using small sensors equiv to APS film format - as are most current compact digi-cams. Your digi-slr is giving you the interchangeable lens option and of course more control as to exposure via f/stop/shutter speed/ISO value et al. Your camera is highly regarded and is used by many pro's as a back up to the big brother SLR. Zoom lenses are a big expensive compromise! They are unlikely to match the definition/resolution of a good prime lens and many of the current compacts have 'simple' lenses of the 'Cooke triplet' type that are unbeaten for quality at the average 100th sec at f/11. There is then the autofocus of a lens that has an enormous depth of field - you shouldn't be able to go wrong with a good compact! However, a big zoom lens designed for full frame despite the myth that using said lens on 'half frame' gives better results 'cos you are using only the 'sweet' centre area of the image circle will not give the quality of say a Sigma designed for the smaller sensor size. But, a factor almost never taken into consideration is that interchangeable lenses wear their mounts. A fraction of a millimeter wear on flange to flange fit is magnified at flange to film or sensor and can prevent full resolution being achieved. A 'rattling good fit' is not good enough - especially with the smaller sensor formats! There are errors possible at flange to view screen distances too. Then there is always the Friday afternoon tea break model! Take your camera and lens to a good service shop and have them collimated. A good job can make your camera/lens better than new! Just like a service and M.O.T. Cheers, BD.

1 0

JPEGS et al
by Bob Dove 04 Jul '05

04 Jul '05

Hi Guys, I used a 'live cd' version of Suse 9.3, which loaded my Epsom R300 semi OK and printed a nice test sheet. This edition of Suse includes Open Office 2.0 (which I use in win as well) that prints as well in Linux as in win. I couldn't access images from my Windoze system however, Suse shows me the drives but I can't access them or write to them. Is this 'cos the are formatted NTFS? Do I need a Linux formatted drive to write to/load from? Mandrake Move however needed a special printer driver driver which Epson don't have yet. Re quality InkJet Vs. minilab. Minilabs largely use hybrid printers - real continuous tone photographic colour paper ('C-Type') and wet chemistry although Noritsu are now installing a minilabs with an Epson InkJet front end. The photo-colour paper is exposed to a 'virtual neg' via laser or LCD block via relay lens as most labs now dev the film and scan it to digital files which are 'flattened' tonally to an easy to print result. Most no longer print from a neg. This flattening of course removes a lot of the possible subtlety and tonal range that a neg/pos process provides. However, a digital file from your own camera - especially 'raw' or 'native' format that hasn't been JPEG'd already will produce better than InkJet from a hybrid printer. It is a sad fact however that the digital photographic market place is filled with hype rather than reality and many digital photographers just don't know what their equipment is capable of. Picture libraries are now asking for digital files ca. 40 mB in size to ensure that they have images capable of making an A4 mag cover or A3 dps. Of course, a 35mm trannie scanned to 48 bit will provide this! (Image size ca 7 x 10in @ 16 bits per channel is 40.9 mB - 2235 x 3196 pixels. The original trannie does of course contain more info than can be accessed digitally! It boils down to that if you are a pro' or keen amateur photographer you'll be taking your fully Photoshopped or Gimped files to the lab on a CD for real photos while if your 'normal' requirements are family happy snaps an Epson ('cos the clone inks are SO much cheaper) will suffice. But, even Epson and HP genuine inks fade fast (within six months for photo's on display in normal (i.e., mine) lighting whereas the photo-paper doesn't. I and photographer colleagues have been conducting longevity tests on IJ prints since whoever claimed that they were of photographic quality - they ain't! Horses for courses tho'! Cheers, BD.

3 3

a small light at the end of the tunnel
by tom potts 04 Jul '05

04 Jul '05

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4642461.stm ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

1 0

Weekly IRC reminder
by Brett Parker 04 Jul '05

04 Jul '05

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

1 0

RE: [ALUG] Re: Re: Printing JPG and GIF files - what's the simplest way?
by Keith Watson 03 Jul '05

03 Jul '05

> From: Chris Green Sent: 01 July 2005 13:33 > On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 01:27:44PM +0100, Adam Bower wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 01:21:16PM +0100, Chris Green wrote: > > > > > I have my printer drivers installed in CUPS and > everything else uses > > > those by selecting printer Oj for the Officejet and Lj for the > > > Laserjet. Gimp seems to send postscript to the printer > even though > > > I selected one of my CUPS printers, that's a bit brain dead. The > > > Gimp doesn't seem to have drivers for my (pretty > standard) HP printers. > > > > What printers? (model numbers please) and which distro? > Printing can > > be "fun" sometimes so there is an element of stabbing in > the dark with > > the info you gave us so far :) > > > Slackware 10.1 with CUPS. > > Printers are an HP7310 and an HP1060 (I think). I have the > HPLIP drivers installed for the printers and they work well > in general. > I can print with no problems from firefox for example, it's > just that I'm having trouble getting these .GIF and .JPG > files to print so they look sensible on an A4 sheet of paper. Have you installed GimpPrint? I have a completely non-standard (as far as Linux is concerned) Canon S400 and I use CUPS and GimpPrint and its always worked straight out of the box (bet you really wanted to know that :o) ). Do you have OpenOffice installed (or anything with a decent Word Processor)? A technique I've often used is to open a blank document and then imported an image into it, then just printed the page with the image. It's a useful technique that I've used successfully under Windows, Unix and Linux at various times (assuming that you can print ok from the WP software). Regards, Keith ____________ Even before I can say it, it is no more. - Sengai

8 15

"Relay" of FTP?
by Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk 03 Jul '05

03 Jul '05

Hi Folks, Here I go trying to break the rules again .. or am I? When I dial-up, my "gateway" machine gets an IP address which I can find out. So, from outside, I can telnet, ftp etc. to my gateway. If I want to telnet to one of the machines inside my LAN, I could first telnet to the gateway, and then from there to any of the others. A bit cumbersome, but not a problem. However, if I want to FTP to one of my internal machines, it's much more cumbersome: first FTP to the gateway, then telnet to the gateway and from there FTP to the desired machine. I'm wondering if there's some sort of protocol for getting directly to an "internal" machine (whose IP address is not known to the Net) by a kind of "relay" via the gateway (whose external IP address is known to the net). There's an analogy in Internet mail, whereby you can force mail to aa.bb.cc.dd to be routed via AA.BB.CC.DD, by addressing to @AA.BB.CC.DD:user@aa.bb.cc.dd (so-called "routing addresses). So can I, for instance, do something like telnet @213.130.142.61:192.168.0.7 (where 192.168.0.7 is the address of a machine on my private LAN, and 213.130.142.61 is an IP address my gateway waas recently given on dialup)? And, similarly, something like ftp @213.130.142.61:192.168.0.7 ?? Or is there a different way to do it? Or no way at all? When I try the above on my LAN, e.g. telnet @192.168.0.7:192.168.0.1 I get "Aborted", and telnet 192.168.0.7:192.168.0.1 gives me 192.168.0.7:192.168.0.1: Unknown host and similarly "Name or service not known" with FTP, so presumably I've got the details wrong above, if it's possible at all. But you get the idea ... With thanks, and best wishes to all, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding(a)nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 03-Jul-05 Time: 21:34:12 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

2 1

Greatings Everyone
by Peter Bassill 03 Jul '05

03 Jul '05

Hey all Just a quick hello. Ive just moved back to Norwich after a few years away and am looking to find my local lug. Hopefully I will see you all at your next meeting. See you all soon. Pete Bassill

1 0

MS settles with IMB
by Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk 02 Jul '05

02 Jul '05

Hi Folks, I read today: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8209-1677235,00.html that MS have agreed to pay IBM $775 to settle claims going back to the 1990s. In particular they are related to a case against MS by the US Givet that its practices caused the demise of IBM's OS2 operating system. I recall that, in 1990-91 (i.e. before Linux came on the scene), I got seriously interested in OS2 as an OS for the IBM PC that offered functionality similar to the capabilities of Unix (which, already having experience of, I was eagerly looking for on the PC, being frustrated with the limitations of DOS and disgusted with the marshmallow experience of early Windows -- pink, sugary, squodgy, of no nutritional value, nauseating in large quantities, and liable to adhere tackily to whatever you were trying to do). Then, of course, came Linux; and, personally, I've never looked back. But I think the worlds of both serious and consumer computing were deprived, when OS2 sank, of what would probably have become a great OS. Ironically, at that same time (1991) I also learned of the existence of the MS project for Windows NT -- yes, it goes back that far! This, too, seemed as if it might offer Unix-like capabilities, and was another thing I was keeping an eye on in the hope that the PC would be enabled to yield the performance that its hardware was capable of. For some reason, however, it was many years before NT became generally used, and then mainly in "the background" in the corporate and institutional sector. It's satisfying, after all these years, to learn that IBM is (in effect) vindicated; but depressing all the same to be aware that a promising initiative had died so early on. Best wishes to all, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding(a)nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 02-Jul-05 Time: 09:19:26 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

2 2

Is this for real ?
by Wayne Stallwood 01 Jul '05

01 Jul '05

http://www.merkeylaw.com/article.php?story=20050621145053855&mode=print Check out items 40 downwards for maximum amusement This one is a classic. "60. Perens posted Internet messages on LWN.net stating to Linux and OSS members that “Merkey works for SCO,” and that “Merkey should be placed in a file of people to be killed”. Merkey has not or ever worked for SCO or the Canopy Group." Is the US legal system so broken now that you have to be careful using terms such as killfile. Other classics include "46. The beheading and murder of United States Citizens in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and other countries have been videotaped, converted to MPEG and other images for viewing on the public Internet through the use of OSS and Linux software and computer technology developed and purloined by Linux and OSS members and illegally exported from the United States. 47. Companies which sponsor, endorse, and support OSS and Linux, and those acting in concert as their advocates have been unwitting participants in wholesale technology theft of United States developed technology and sponsors of domestic and international terrorism. "

3 2

RE: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: Printing JPG and GIF files - what's the simplest way?
by Keith Watson 01 Jul '05

01 Jul '05

> From: Chris Green Sent: 01 July 2005 15:17 > > > > Do you have OpenOffice installed (or anything with a decent Word > > Processor)? A technique I've often used is to open a blank document > > and then imported an image into it, then just printed the page with > > the image. It's a useful technique that I've used > successfully under > > Windows, Unix and Linux at various times (assuming that you > can print > > ok from the WP software). > > > Well I hate to say it but the easiest option was to load the > pictures into Visio in Windows and print from there. Simply > worked 'out of the box' with no hassle. Much in the same way > that printing from Firefox on Linux works, that seems to > manage the handling of getting things the right size by > default so why can't other applications do so well? I take it that Firefox wasn't an option for you in this case (I forget the beginning of this thread :o) )? Regards, Keith ____________ Stand still. - The trees ahead and the bush beside you are not lost. - Albert Einstein

1 0

Printing JPG and GIF files - what's the simplest way?
by Chris Green 01 Jul '05

01 Jul '05

I have some GIF and JPG files (they're maps of wine producing areas in France) that I want to print. What's the easiest application to use to do this? All I want is for the image to be scaled to the best size to fit a sheet of A4 paper, no other manipulation is required. When I just opened the file from the xfce file manager using the default application it opened with ImageMagick, it looked perfect on screen but when I selected print the printout was displaced so that only half of it was printed. The orientation was right, it was just shifted down. I couldn't find any way to set up the printout in ImageMagick. I'm not even sure what sort of ImageMagick is being invoked - almost as bad as Windows! Then I tried opening the file with the Gimp and printing it, even more disastrous, the Gimp did its own thing and simply sent Postscript to the printer and thus produced nothing useful at all except lots of wasted paper. My printers seem to be set up right for everything else on my Linux box, why did the Gimp not get that right? I have many Gnome and KDE applications installed even though I use xfce for my desktop so I probably have most of the usual things people might suggest. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

6 12