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Re: [Alug] Microsoft Invasion of UEA
by David Cartwright 14 Oct '02

14 Oct '02

Hi all, You'll notice that I don't post often to this list, but I find it hard not to comment in this case. For those who don't know me, I write for a number of magazines including Internet and Linux Format, I've worked in most IT roles from techie grunt to technical director, in companies from two employees to many thousands, and I now work for myself, with a number of clients from small Norfolk concerns to a multinational travel conglomerate. My own Web servers are all Linux-based, and my desktop and laptop dual-boot between Windows (XP and 2000) and Red Hat 7.2. My main client right now has a large Oracle database running on Solaris, with the file and print services Windows 2000-based and all desktops running Windows 2000 Pro. We develop in FoxPro (don't ask) and VB6/VB.NET. >hmmm. It was some time since I was in SYS but when I was there it was >obvious from the start that there was a bunch of syskids who loved MS >and a bunch of syskids who didn't. This split appeared to be similar >amongst lecturers and postgrads. I studied there from 1988-91, and worked in tech support from 1991-95, and at the time we had the bunch of syskids who liked Macs and Unix (myself included) and the bunch of syskids and others who didn't (CPC included :-) I wasn't so dumb to realise, however, that there was a world outside the Macintosh and the Sun-3, and in fact in the university vacations I spent my days looking after Novell NetWare networks and IBM PCs running MS-DOS 3.3 (in university term-time I spent my days annoying the computing centre by asking them nicely for things and then humiliating them in public when they turned us down for dumb reasons). >I'd like to hope that nowadays with linux more common than it was then >that there would be more anti-ms syskids than for MS. And I'd like to think that universities produce individuals who are open-minded enough to choose the right tool for the job. >Whether thats the case or not, I'd be very impressed if anything MS >could put on would sway someone who's against MS into liking them. Those >who already love MS will turn up and get their loving (freebees, sign up >as beta testers etc.) If you're not open to the idea that something other than your favourite technology is the right thing to use in a particular business situation, you're at best stupid and at worst unemployable. Why are people against Microsoft? It's not because their products are crap, it's because they're portrayed as bullies (which is often justified, but which is sometimes done just because they're Microsoft). One of the many hats I wear is as a judge on the UK Networking Industry Awards. We do barrack Microsoft sometimes, because there's no denying they're far from being a perfect company. However, when I gave the award in one of the categories I was judging last year to Microsoft, my fellow judges had their tongues firmly in their cheeks when they said: "Blimey, you gave it to Microsoft!". My reason for awarding it? Their product was better than the others in its category, and the reason my colleagues inserted tongue into cheek before invoking speech was that they knew that despite the bull you hear, Microsoft does occasionally knock out a gem of a product. We used to have the same thing in the networking industry with Cisco, in fact - some of their gear was utter crap and Bay Networks (now Nortel) in particular used to knock spots off them. But from time to time you had to admit that Cisco was doing it best, and gave them a good review. Incidentally, one of the other hats I wear is as a judge for the British Computer Society programming competition (and some equivalents that we're running this year for IBM and for Barclays Capital). As it happens, I write all my sample solutions using GCC on Linux, because it's the platform I'm used to from my days at UEA learning how to program in C from Ian Marshall :-) > > We have just been infomred that SYS have invited Micorosft to come with > > their promotional bus to UEA where they are going to show off all their > > really interesting stuff to unsuscpecting and highly guillable SYSkiddies. Some ex-SYS types may remember that I've been along from time to time to do a lecture in the Professional Practice course for final year students. The point I always attempt to make in such talks is that university teaches you a great deal about the theory of how stuff works, but gives little or no exposure to current real-world technologies. Any understanding at all of real-world technologies, or even (in this case) knowledge of the current products on the market, is of benefit to the new graduate sitting in an interview trying to look more knowledgable than the next guy. Obviously in an ideal world one would have the ability to meet a number of manufacturers, but the usual rules apply: the biggest, richest ones are the ones most likely to spend the time and money doing this type of visit. I would hope that many people on this list are grown up enough to realise that if you're going to produce the best solution for your company/employer/client, you have to be technology-independent and vendor-independent, at least at the start of the decision process. And it's true that there are factors other than how good a technology is when you're deciding - right now, for instance, I have a dilemma because the best product (in terms of technology and performance) for a project I'm working on is produced by a company whose prices are exorbitant and whose pre- and after-sales service sucks. When you're a technology journalist you learn to be independent. I've nearly been shot in previous years for standing up in a Novell press conference (after they'd paid for my business class ticket to Atlanta) and saying "If you were Microsoft you'd give away NDS for NT for free, not charge your proposed $70 per seat, and you'd corner the market". Interestingly, the following day I had a one-to-one with one of their VPs who told me he'd been trying to tell them the same thing for weeks. There are valid reasons for being negative about Microsoft - the most obvious in recent years being Windows NT 4, which was as far from being a stable operating system as Concorde is from being a quiet, economical commuter jet. But they didn't get where they are today (and nor did Cisco, and nor did BT, and nor did British Airways, and so on for any other company that people automatically get negative about) by being universally rubbish. Regards, Dave C

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FW: Temporary bash corruption
by Jonathan Dye 14 Oct '02

14 Oct '02

Hi, A strange thing happend to my machine over the weekend. I had been merrily working away for a few hours using various terminals and then suddenly when I opened a new terminal it would immediatly exit. I tried logging in to a virtual terminal ( rather than a terminal in x ) and got the same thing. After playing around for a while I discovered that if I tried to run bash from an already open terminal it would exit immediatley with a segmentation fault. I managed to get it to dump a core file but then realised I didn't have a debugger and no way to install one as I couldn't log in as root. I copied bash from my other PC (Same version, same distribution) and did a diff which reported that the files were different. I eventually gave up trying to save my machine and rebooted. After re-booting everything worked fine! Doing the same diff reported that the files were identical. Examing the log files showed nothing unusual. I don't have any idea where to start looking for the cause and wondered if anyone could suggest anything. For your info I am running debian 3 with the supplied kernel 2.4.18-k7 and using ext3 on all my filesystems. JD _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service

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Weekly IRC reminder
by Neill Newman 14 Oct '02

14 Oct '02

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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Re: [Alug] USB + 2.4.19 + pcmcia
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 13 Oct '02

13 Oct '02

Douglas Willis wrote: >The file i82365 is part of the card services modules. It is linked in >when card services load. >To enable this component go into the general setup section then the >pcmcia/card services section of the config. menus. You will see the >options for various bus types. So I will! I've now rebuilt the kernel including the i82365 and rebooted, but it still just *won't* work. :-( The modules are now all present but insmod won't load them, giving a hint that the parameters may be incorrect. Surely if the parameters are ok for one kernel config they must be for another? Anyway, it's.... HOMETIME!!!!!!! Hooray! Friday night! Weekend! Sobriety and getting up early a thing of the past........ Jenny.

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Syleham Meeting 3rd November
by MJ Ray 13 Oct '02

13 Oct '02

I've just added this meeting to the wiki. I don't know many of the specifics, like what's happening, who's coming and what they're bringing or wanting. People who know more, please edit the page to fit. -- MJR| v ---|--[ Luminas internet applications http://www.luminas.co.uk/ ]-----| `--[ http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ ]---------[ slef at jabber.at ]-----'

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CASE tools
by Ricardo Campos 13 Oct '02

13 Oct '02

(Hopefully you won't get 2 of these as the last time I tried it error'ed) Can anyone recommend a CASE tool that can handle UML and ER diagrams? TIA Ricardo -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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USB + 2.4.19 + pcmcia
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 12 Oct '02

12 Oct '02

Hi list, two-in-one question time. First the USB problem: Has anyone else experienced problems with USB using kernel 2.4.19? I managed to lock my box up entirely just now simply by plugging the USB cable in, other times it will be fine, then a few days ago I had a kernel panic when transferring a large amount of data over the USB. I can't see many problems reported on google, so it may be I've missed something vital from USB support in the kernel or something silly? Then the PCMCIA problem: Can I simply copy the /lib/modules/2.2.20/pcmcia directory to /lib/modules/2.4.19/pcmcia in order to try and get my pc card working in 2.4.19 as well as 2.2.20, or does it not work like that doe to the way the kernels handle modules? I'm anxious *not* to blow anything up! Many thanks, Jenny.

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Microsoft Invasion of UEA
by James Edward John Taylor 12 Oct '02

12 Oct '02

We have just been infomred that SYS have invited Micorosft to come with their promotional bus to UEA where they are going to show off all their really interesting stuff to unsuscpecting and highly guillable SYSkiddies. Whats the possibility of trying to get someone from the FSF to do a stand in the Hive at the same time? Dates adn dimtes are yet to be confirmed. J

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adding a prog (DHCP) to rc in debian
by Ricardo Campos 11 Oct '02

11 Oct '02

OK. Debian Woody... So I've ditched pump and installed dhcp3-client. However, this client doesn't start up at boot time. man dhcp3 doesn't have any entries. I'm a little stumped. How could I find binary the package installed, and then, how could I get it to start when linux boots to a networked run level. It's amazing how much more difficult linux is to use when you can't STFW! -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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Re: [Alug] USB + 2.4.19 + pcmcia
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Oct '02

11 Oct '02

>Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com <Jenny_Hopkins(a)toby-churchill.com> wrote: >> Has anyone else experienced problems with USB using kernel 2.4.19? [...] > >No. Use lsmod on your new and old kernel systems to make sure that you're >still using the same USB hci module. Some boards work with more than one, >with differing rates of success. > OK, ta. I didn't have usb working before, having never needed it until now. >> Can I simply copy the /lib/modules/2.2.20/pcmcia directory to >> /lib/modules/2.4.19/pcmcia [...] > Lewis Collard wrote: >No, the chances are very high that won't work. insmod will refuse to install >the module; there's the evil way of insmod -f but you'll almost certainly get >a bunch of undefined symbol errors if you try the. Just compile the same >drivers under 2.4.19 and it'll work as well as before. MJRay wrote >I agree with the other answer: No. Use lsmod on the old system to get the >net module name and enable that in "make menuconfig" on the new kernel. >Then, I think, it will all "just work". I did this - the modules used were axnet_cs and i82365, I then remade the kernel using the net module that was axnet_cs, but there was nothing for i82365 (that i could see in the pcmcia section); this is now what the laptop is complaining about (the lack of i82365) hence my wonder if i could actually just stuff it all from one to the other. Sorry to ask daft Qs :-( Nothing "just works" with me. Jen

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Anyone tried out Red Hat 8.0 or Mandrake 9.0 yet?
by Keith Watson 11 Oct '02

11 Oct '02

Both of these distro's seem to be getting good write ups wrt their ease of installation with some articles (see www.theregister.co.uk) even suggesting they are now serious challengers to MS Windows. I wondered if anyone in ALUG has any practical experience of these yet? By the way, spent an evening playing around with installing Woody last night. Very impressed, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who didn't have at least a smattering of technical knowledge of unix or pc hardware, but, personally, I found it installed very smoothly except for insisting I should install ISDN support (even though I don't have ISDN!? or, at least, I don't think I have :o) ) and producing a very bizarre XF86Config file. Both of these were fairly easily dealt with and everything else ran quite happily, I suspect I'd unintentionally selected some unwanted options somewhere along the line. Keith ____________ A leader is not the leader, therefore he is called leader. D.T. Suzuki (par)

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Re: [Alug] NTL Broadband
by Ricardo Campos 11 Oct '02

11 Oct '02

ref: http://lists.linuxemporium.co.uk/pipermail/lbc/2001-October/008807.html I think that it is pump that is at fault here. That would explain why ipcop could connect fine. However, it doesn't explain why the debian box wouldn't work whilst routing through the ipcop machine. confusering. :/ -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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Re: [Alug] re microsoft invasion and NTL broadband
by Ricardo Campos 11 Oct '02

11 Oct '02

> I think the MAC address NTL want is the one on their > modem not the one in your PC - I now found out the > modem signal is 20db down so they're sending out an > engineer. I use a set top box! I think there may be a problem with the dhcp client I was using- but I have no time to check this, as it is the weekend, and time for fun rather than work! -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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re microsoft invasion and NTL broadband
by tom potts 11 Oct '02

11 Oct '02

Thanks for the broadband info. I think the MAC address NTL want is the one on their modem not the one in your PC - I now found out the modem signal is 20db down so they're sending out an engineer. Re M$ - I have slagged them off for years for lock-in but I would recommend anyone who does internet programming to have a very good look at .NET And then at http:\\www.go-mono.com If they (or someone else) can provide the .NET framework for apache2 and a nice IDE no workstation in any business with an IT aware staff will ever need to upgrade their workstations again. The last bit is a bit much to ask but M$ have produced the technology that will kill them! LOL Tom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com

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Meeting at London Linux Expo?
by MJ Ray 11 Oct '02

11 Oct '02

The London Linux Expo is next week, Wednesday and Thursday, probably http://www.linuxexpo.co.uk/ or similar. Previous years, ALUG people have met up around lunchtime for a (not so) swift drink in the pub over the road. Can I suggest that we continue the tradition and meet up at 1pm on the Thursday by the Association For Free Software and Debian stands? (If someone wants to arrange a Wednesday meet-up, feel free, but I can't as I'm not there...) MJR

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Re: [Alug] NTL Broadband
by Ricardo Campos 10 Oct '02

10 Oct '02

> I got round this by taking out my second Ethernet card so I only had the one. I only have 1 at the moment. > I then got all the software I needed ie. DHCPCD. Put the other ethernet card back in and it all stated to work. I tried dhcp-client, but that didn't get any info at all! :'( . Did you install dhcpd from source? I could always d/l source using windoze, and then mount the 'doze partition and get the source from there. This linux box (perhaps I'll worry about the ipcop one later) doesn't need to be a dhcp server, just a client. /me is confused, frustrated etc. -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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Re: [Alug] NTL Broadband
by Ricardo Campos 10 Oct '02

10 Oct '02

And to provide a little more info on the problem.... I use pump as it was (for whatever reason) installed with Debian Woody. Changing my dhcp client would require a net connection.... One thing I found out (by STFW: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/history/28208) was that Linux broadcasts it's MAC address in a different way to Windoze, so the suggestion was to reset the set top box, bring up the interface, then re-register on NTL. Fine, only there's a problem. I wish to use a dedicated router/firewall (www.ipcop.org). I'm fine with transferring NICs between computers, however the ipcop box *could* ping outside (having transferred the NIC, and resolve hosts. So that kinda throws that theory away. Unfortunately, clients on the internal network can't resolve hosts or ping outside going through the ipcop firewall. (also, ipcop has now browser capable of doing the register process anyway. in fact, it comes with no browser). I know the wordwrap is fscked, btw, as soon as I get connected in linux I'll use a proper mail reader. -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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Re: [Alug] NTL Broadband
by Ricardo Campos 10 Oct '02

10 Oct '02

> I've had NTL broadband installed and, for the life of > me, cant get anything other than W2K/IE5.5 to connect > to it properly. > The Linux box gives me an IP/DNS and gateway from DHCP > but doesnt seem to want to work. > Anybody got any clues? > Tom That's just plain spooky. Me too! lol Indeed, I get an IP address, DNS, and gateway, but it can't ping the external network, or resolve any hostnames. I've spent all day today doing this! What do you put in your hosts file when you use DHCP? i.e. my old one was something like: 127.0.0.1 localhost 10.0.0.1 pixiedust pixiedust But as I don't know my IP in advance- what should I do? Ricardo -- Get your free email from www.linuxmail.org Powered by Outblaze

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NTL Broadband
by tom potts 10 Oct '02

10 Oct '02

I've had NTL broadband installed and, for the life of me, cant get anything other than W2K/IE5.5 to connect to it properly. The Linux box gives me an IP/DNS and gateway from DHCP but doesnt seem to want to work. Anybody got any clues? Tom __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com

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Starting Open Office v1.0
by bsamuels＠beenthere-donethat.org.uk 09 Oct '02

09 Oct '02

Open Office takes one and a half minutes to start on my machine running Debian Testing. The machine has 1.3 GHz Athlons and 512MB RAM so I don't think that's the problem. Anyone else have a similar experience? Barry Samuels

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Re: [Alug] Meeting at London Linux Expo?
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 08 Oct '02

08 Oct '02

MJRay wrote: >I'll be the guy on a neighbouring stand, heckling. ;-) > >(Not really!) Excellent! Well, I've washed my "I Love Microsoft" teeshirt, broken my laptop, broken the board I'm meant to be demo-ing and failed to work out how to get a rucksack full of equipment to London on a motorbike. I'm currently trying to work out what I got rid of in pcmcia when I decided that the day before the linux expo was the best day for my first ever kernel rebuild :-) Jen.

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Re: [Alug] Meeting at London Linux Expo?
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 08 Oct '02

08 Oct '02

>>Would love to meet some more of you guys. I will be attending Wednesday, so >>any1 going give me a shout :) I'm going to be on the deb stand on Thursday showing the newly developed balloon board running a custom-built version of debian, so I will see Thursday people there. I'll be trying hard to look as though I know what I'm talking about. Jenny.

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How to waste a Friday night.
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 07 Oct '02

07 Oct '02

Syd Hancock wrote: >Also willing to burn copies of Woody for the cost of CDs and >postage if anyone is interested. I have all 7 CDs if you want the >lot. Syd - may I take you upon this offer? I'll mail you off-list but thought I'd share my story of how to waste a large amount of time first: On Friday night I tried to get my winmodem going. In order to do this I had to install a bit of software from the linmodem site. In order to do that I had to upgrade my kernel from 2.2.ancientthing to 2.4.x. In order to do *that* I had to update and upgrade all my packages and dist from potato.ancient.stuff (I only have one phone line with a dialup modem connection so don't tend to do this very often)(and as the modem has been out of order for several weeks even less so). I couldn't point sourceslist to the internet obviously, so I used the main woody install disk someone had burnt for me. Guess what, the cdrom wasn't functioning. So I set up a samba share to the windows cdrom and tried that, which didn't work as samba asking for a password coincided each time with apt-get asking to insert cdrom and press enter, so it kept going in a loop. So I copied the entire 650m cdrom contents to the linux box and pointed apt at that, whooping with joy when I got the source-list right, but it kept erroring out halfway through. So on Saturday I put in a cdrom drive that worked, pointed sources list back to the cdrom, and then found out the burnt cdrom was faulty and the second half wouldn't read. Of course, I could have saved hours of time and had an internet connection simply by putting the winmodem in the windows machine, but that would have been *far* too easy. Anyhow, thanks to all for the USB and kernel answers, I'm now about to upgrade the laptop as that seems the best option. Thanks. Jenny.

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Weekly IRC reminder
by Neill Newman 07 Oct '02

07 Oct '02

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Fwd: Re: [Alug] CD Sound?
by Wayne Stallwood 05 Oct '02

05 Oct '02

Also what sound card have you got ? I have a soundblaster Live 256 and I had this problem because I had connected the CD Audio via the Digital output of the Drive rather than the more conventional Analogue outputs. By default on the Soundblaster drivers, Digital inputs are muted hence no CD sound. Have you checked the volume setting of the CD inputs on your soundcard (use Kmix or someting similar) CD sound does not require any interaction of the software drivers or computer apart from setting the volume as they are simply a passthrough to the soundcard output. On Friday 04 October 2002 22:20, MJ Ray wrote: > BenEBoy <mail(a)psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > > 8.0. My machine beeps at me, makes whooshing noises when KDE starts up > > and XMMS works fine. Unfortunately, I can't get any sound to word when > > playing CDs. gtcd will recognise a CD and bring up the artist/title info > > but pressing play doesn't do anything. KsCD works a bit better. [...] > > Things to check: > - do you know that the CD is connected to the sound system by a cable > internally (ie, has it ever worked?) > - has the KDE sound system got your soundcard exclusively? If so, you > need to either stop it, or make the CD player use it. I know how to do > that for esd (with esddsp) but I don't know arts... anyone? -------------------------------------------------------

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