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10372 discussions

PostgreSQL problems
by Ashley ＠ Turton 15 Oct '01

15 Oct '01

I've been running PostgreSQL for a while on a box here at work. This morning when I logged in, it completes a few queries, then stops progressing them. To complete a few more queries I need to restart postmaster. I have not changed any settings for a long time and it only started playing up today. Any ideas? FYI, I am running Postgres 7.03, and executing queries through PHP/Apache. This particular machine is running Mandrake 8.0. Ashley

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Re: [Alug] PostgreSQL problems
by MJ Ray 15 Oct '01

15 Oct '01

"Ashley @ Turton" <ashley(a)turton.com> writes: > not changed any settings for a long time and it only started playing up > today. Any ideas? Not really. We've not seen this, but I think we only have Postgres 6.5.3 and 7.1 here. tsw uses a 7.0 version, but that hasn't had any problems either. Have you checked for open bug reports at postgresql.org and on their lists? -- MJR Do you need advice about the Internet or particular net services? Why not talk to my employers? See http://www.luminas.co.uk/ for details.

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Job in Ipswich - Support Services Team Leader - to £40k
by Gavin Smith 15 Oct '01

15 Oct '01

Job Title: Support Services Team Leader Salary: to £40k + benefits Department: Operations Role and Activities: * Establish, operate and manage an effective support operation including telephone support helpdesk, trouble ticketing system, on-line FAQs, secure customer & on-line information area and support forum. * To lead a team of dedicated support people providing appropriate levels of cover, input to engineering and product management, customer fault management, tracking and resolution. Location: Ipswich Skills/Experience (Essential): * A thorough knowledge of Unix (Linux) and Windows platforms coupled with experience in a wide range of routing and network technologies * At least 2 years in an IT Support management role and proven experience in providing face to face, telephone and on-line customer solutions. * Ability to define support processes, plan and report support trends and communicate effectively across a wide audience Skills/Experience (Desirable): * MCSE, Cisco, Red Hat or industry equivalent qualification * HTML Authoring Personal Skills * Well organised, pragmatic approach to working under pressure from customers. * Strong prioritization skills and ability to deliver results within a team * A strong sense of ownership of customer issues and willingness to achieve * Excellent telephone manner, customer biased with good written and oral communications. Additional Requirements: Will need clean driving licence and willingness to travel, possibly internationally, at short notice. Weekend and/or after hours working is a distinct possibility in this role if deploying to customer premises. Benefits: Excellent package including 25 days' annual leave (pro-rata); Share Options; Private Health Care; Income Protection, and pension. Regards Gavin Smith Recruitment Manager Best International Group plc Tel: 0121 335 9000 Fax: 0121 335 9090 Email: gsmith(a)best-international.com www.best-international.com **************************************************************************************** Official winners of the UK IT Recruitment Service of the Year Computing Awards for Excellence 2000 Official winners of the Network Recruitment Consultancy of the Year Networking Industry Awards 2001 Best International Group Plc Registered in England No. 3246014 London (Head Office) +44 (0)20 7300 9000 Bristol +44 (0)117 945 9000 Birmingham +44 (0)121 335 9000 Manchester +44 (0)161 942 9000 Scotland +44 (0)131 524 9000 This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any representations (contractual or otherwise), views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Best International Group, or any of its group companies. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ****************************************************************************************

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Re: [Alug] Linux and USB?
by Edenyard 15 Oct '01

15 Oct '01

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:12:01 +0100 (BST), Adam Bower wrote: > OK this bit is more interesting as it is attaching the driver slightly > higher up the food chain! You may not want to attach directly to /dev/sda, > try mount -t vfat /dev/sg0 /mnt/camera instead, there is some > No real change - I get this: mount: /dev/sg0: unknown device. Grrr... > documentation for this in /usr/src/linux/Documentation/scsi-generic.txt > and also on the web at http://www.torque.net/sg/p/scsi-generic_v3.txt but > it is a bit highbrow for me. > Ah - some bedtime reading! I shall read through that later today. > Also the kernel version you are running is fairly old in 2.4 terms and may > be buggy so you may need an upgrade to a newer version. > I've cobbled together another machine with Slackware 8 (kernel 2.4.5) and Mandrake (kernel 2.4.8) so, as soon as I've obtained a plug-in card to provide USB connections, I'll try those. Thanks for your thoughts! Gerald.

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Weekly IRC reminder
by Neill Newman 15 Oct '01

15 Oct '01

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.openprojects.net in the #alug channel, you can take a look at www.openprojects.net to get more info on the openprojects network. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server uk.openprojects.net" or "/server eu.openprojects.net" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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Re: [Alug] APM
by MJ Ray 14 Oct '01

14 Oct '01

Willaby <willaby(a)pgen.net> writes: > Which means I cant use ALSA on my notebook yet, either, having to use > OSS. You can use tainted modules. I doubt anyone will take much notice of the taintedness of the current kernel, as there are still parts of the mainline kernel which taint it. > Is there a low traffic kernel list, that would provide important > information like this? Kernel Traffic and LWN.net's Kernel pages are my two weekly hits. -- MJR Do you need advice about the Internet or particular net services? Why not talk to my employers? See http://www.luminas.co.uk/ for details.

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Exim, Fetchmail, Procmail with Debian
by Ashley 14 Oct '01

14 Oct '01

Installed Debian (2.2 v3) this morning (crowd cheers!). I'm having a problem getting my incoming email to work. This is what I done: - installed Debian with Exim as default MTA - configured Exim (probably incorrectly) - Installed fetchmail, fetchmailconf - configured fetchmailconf (grab email from POP3 server @ dial.pipex.com) - Installed procmail - Set up a few simple .procmailrc filters Now when I run fetchmail -d0, it downloads the email from the pop server, but it does not arrive in /home/ash/mail as expected. On looking inside /var/spool/exim I get lots of: .com [205.158.62.41]: 550 5.1.1 <server2(a)email.com>... User unknown messages. This is for incoming email. Can anyone help or share their Exim config file for retrieving mail from a pop3 server? FYI, I will be on the ALUG channel for IRC this afternoon -- Ashley T. Howes PhD www.ashleyhowes.com "When all the animals of this world are gone, man will die of loneliness"

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Re: [Alug] APM
by MJ Ray 14 Oct '01

14 Oct '01

Willaby <willaby(a)pgen.net> writes: > 'Warning: loading /lib/modules/2.4.1...../apm.o will taint the kernel: > no license' > Does anybody know what this means? Yes, it's a recent change in the kernel structure. All modules now have to declare their freeness to the kernel, or you get that warning. The ultimate aim is to be able to spot people using badly-written unsupported binary-only drivers (can you say "nvidia"?) a mile off. Unfortunately, the current kernel doesn't have all its modules declaring their freeness, hence the "no licence" error and a lot of unnecessary taints. Again, a cock-up in the "stable" series. Expect this to get nailed quite swiftly, though. -- MJR Do you need advice about the Internet or particular net services? Why not talk to my employers? See http://www.luminas.co.uk/ for details.

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Re: =20 and your post to main digest, Vol 1 #56
by John Seago 14 Oct '01

14 Oct '01

Syd, At last something positive, you say you can't see the =20's at the ends of the lines on your posts to the list but on the abovementioned list every line end, except the header and the first line of my message which you quote, the last line of your last paragraph, and the line "Best wishes" ends on my screen with =20. Can I assume therefore that what I am seeing, differs from that seen by others? Even more specifically can you see =20 on my posts but not on yours? (I was happier when it wasn't just me). Further are others seeing =20 on my posts, your posts, on both, or neither? Every time I start to see the very dim outline of a basic concept through the dense mist of ignorance, I get kicked back further than when I started. At least back in April I didn't know how much I didn't know (ignorance is bliss, it also gives one the confidence to plunge in regardless). This raises several issues for me: 1. Am I trying hard enough on my own? [Every thing I start to learn turns out to be interdependent on everything else I don't know, (as far as I know, if you leave a socket turned on the electricity leaks out into a puddle on the floor).] 2. should this be on main or social? 3. At what point does everyone else's patience with me run out. 4. Starting at age 53, have I got long enough left to catch up, especially when everything seems to advance quicker than I am learning? All comments will be welcomed. John seago

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Re: [Alug] Re: =20 and your post to main digest, Vol 1 #56
by MJ Ray 14 Oct '01

14 Oct '01

John Seago <john.seago(a)nutshell.net> writes: > Syd, Point of general order... don't address list posts to a particular person if you can avoid it... > Even more specifically can you see =20 on my posts but not on yours? > (I was happier when it wasn't just me). Further are others seeing =20 > on my posts, your posts, on both, or neither? Neither, but then I'm not reading the digest version. You might have more luck if you switch your digest to use MIME format instead of "plain". You can do this by visiting the list web page and editing your options. > 1. Am I trying hard enough on my own? Yes, but it seems that a key piece of information (that you read the digest version) has been missing until now. > 2. should this be on main or social? Yes ;-) > 3. At what point does everyone else's patience with me run out. Somewhere around Gedney. > 4. Starting at age 53, have I got long enough left to catch up, > especially when everything seems to advance quicker than I am > learning? Dunno. I feel that I'm struggling at just under half that :-/ I think the key is to specialise, which is something that I'm failing spectacularly to do right now. > All comments will be welcomed. Moo? -- MJR Do you need advice about the Internet or particular net services? Why not talk to my employers? See http://www.luminas.co.uk/ for details.

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Re: [Alug] =20
by MJ Ray 14 Oct '01

14 Oct '01

Syd Hancock <syd2(a)toufol.com> writes: > Full marks for your stubborn attitude to the problems with BT but > my approach has been to vote with my wallet. [...] For most East Anglians, however you do it, BT get your money :-( All you can do is minimise how much they get. -- MJR

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APM
by Willaby 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

Hello, Trying to get APM working on my notebook, in the kernelconfig->general setup I said yes to 'Power Managment Support' && 'APM Bios Support as module' 'IGNORE..' as no, and yes to the next 5. Now, 'modprobe -v apm' results in: 'Warning: loading /lib/modules/2.4.1...../apm.o will taint the kernel: no license' Does anybody know what this means? Thanks, Andrew.

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Problems with Grip and DVD drives
by Adam Bower 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

Lo all, I just puchased myself a DVD-Rom drive and a CD-RW drive to replace the broken CD-Rom drive in my main machine. Interestingly I now have a problem with ripping CDs. I can now use Grip (a very cool program that will rip your CD and encode it into mp3 or Ogg Vorbis and sort out making playlists and putting the files in the correct places for you) to rip CDs from the CD-RW drive but it just segfaults if I try and use the DVD-Rom?! The program loads and recognises the Cd and does the CDDB lookup and as soon as I tell it to rip+encode it segfaults. The DVD-Rom is sitting on hdc and it is a Sony DDU1621, and the CD-RW is a Freecom 32r 12r 10rw burnproof thing. I think I am going to check that my kernel is sane later today and that all the Bios settings for the ide bits are correct. Does anyone have any ideas as to what is up? Adam -- Adam

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Re: [Alug] Re: =20 and now 3D as well
by MJ Ray 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

John Seago <john.seago(a)nutshell.net> writes: > What should have been obvious to me in the first place, has just struck me, > it may not be that the =20 is appearing in what is sent but only in what is > being received by me, at least Syd doesn't seem to think he is sending them > on his system. As we are both using Mandrake 8, does this seem likely? It's quite possible, but I get your emails as quoted-printable (ie with =20 and friends) too, while I get Andrew's emails (for example) via BTi as plain text. Equally, emails from KMail users come through fine as plain text, including Syd's. Therefore, I suspect it's your mail server settings that are causing this, as I've not been able to verify them from the list. > I'm still battling with BT (full story on request), and beginning to think > that I've backed yet another lost cause, would I be better off just walking, > (in my case wheeling), away or carrying on the fight? (rhetorical question) The above notwithstanding: BT ARE TOTAL CRAP. Sorry to the BT contingent on the list, but it has to be said. They are a load of total shysters, doing all sorts of monopolistic anti-competitive activities and cross-selling, while the spineless regulator is too thick to stop them. I'm not saying it's really BT's fault, as most corporations would probably do the same in their position. The sooner they are broken up or closed down and replaced by either a public utility with private service companies or a truly free market, the better it will be for everyone. -- MJR

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[Mark Lewis <mark@tuxbox.net>] [lugmaster] free suse 7.1 professional
by MJ Ray 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:55:46 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Lewis <mark(a)tuxbox.net> Subject: [lugmaster] free suse 7.1 professional all, xinit systems have donated 10 boxes of suse 7.1 professional for use by uk lugs. yes.... "donated" means free! :-) i have the boxes here and i have put a link to them on my www.linuxshop.co.uk site. i have been to the post office today and it's going to cost me £10.00 to package and post them, including credit card admin fees. thus, if you or any member of your lug wants a copy (one per person) please visit www.lug.org.uk first come first serve! cheers, mark -- Jolt Cola & Penguin Caffeine Mints now available in the Linux Shop -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mark Lewis Email : mark(a)tuxbox.net - Linux Jobs - http://www.linux-jobs.co.uk Tel : 07050 366345 - Linux Shop - http://www.linux-shop.co.uk Fax : 07050 366346 - Linux Portal - http://www.linux-portal.co.uk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Email : mark(a)lug.org.uk - Linux Users - http://www.lug.org.uk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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=20
by John Seago 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

I must apologise for this mornings message. I wrote it just after the pain killers were kicking in, and as a consequence it seems a little incoherent, let me clarify. Like Syd I have noticed =20 at the ends of the lines, ( or where the line ends were when I wrote the message). This only seems to occur on the list, (unless those I have emailed individually know otherwise). Messages between myself and Syd don't show the =20, at least at my end. It appears to me therefore, as the problem comes and goes, irrespective of my settings, that the =20 appears somewhere between Syd and I, as senders, and the list itself. I am sending through the 01986 (Bungay?) exchange, which in one of the exchanges between myself and BT over the quality of their service, they told me had yet to be updated. I am of the opinion that it is somewhere along the route that the =20 appears on the final display of the message. My battle with BT Anytime is another matter, and I apologise for letting it get into my last message. -- John Seago "Change is NOT a synonym for Progress"

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Re: [Alug] Linux and USB?
by Edenyard 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

Thanks for your response, Adam. > OK it seems as though there is a problem with some of the modules > somewhere. what is the output of the command dmesg when you plug the > camera into the machine? as that would be the first thing to check that > USB is working and the camera is recognised, the next step would be to > check that the SCSI emulation is working. > Here's the relevant part of dmesg: ================== Linux version 2.4.2-2 (root(a)porky.devel.redhat.com) (gcc version 2.96 20000731 (Red Hat Linux 7.1 2.96-79)) #1 Sun Apr 8 19:37:14 EDT 2001 [snip] usb.c: registered new driver usbdevfs usb.c: registered new driver hub usb-uhci.c: $Revision: 1.251 $ time 19:51:15 Apr 8 2001 usb-uhci.c: High bandwidth mode enabled usb-uhci.c: USB UHCI at I/O 0x5400, IRQ 11 usb-uhci.c: Detected 2 ports usb.c: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1 hub.c: USB hub found hub.c: 2 ports detected [snip] SCSI subsystem driver Revision: 1.00 Initializing USB Mass Storage driver... usb.c: registered new driver usb-storage USB Mass Storage support registered. hub.c: USB new device connect on bus1/1, assigned device number 2 scsi0 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices scsi: unknown type 2 Vendor: Model: Rev: Type: Printer ANSI SCSI revision: 02 Attached scsi generic sg0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 0, lun 0, type 2 resize_dma_pool: unknown device type 2 WARNING: USB Mass Storage data integrity not assured USB Mass Storage device found at 2 ================== ...and here's the output of lsmod: ================== Module Size Used by vfat 9168 0 (autoclean) usb-storage 31632 0 sd_mod 11856 0 (unused) sg 26592 0 (unused) scsi_mod 94336 3 [usb-storage sd_mod sg] parport_pc 17808 1 (autoclean) lp 5264 0 (autoclean) parport 25856 1 (autoclean) [parport_pc lp] autofs 11136 1 (autoclean) ipchains 38944 0 (unused) nls_iso8859-1 2880 1 (autoclean) nls_cp437 4384 1 (autoclean) msdos 5392 1 (autoclean) fat 32832 0 (autoclean) [vfat msdos] usb-uhci 20848 0 (unused) usbcore 49632 1 [usb-storage usb-uhci] ================== ...and when I type 'mount -t vfat /dev/sda /mnt/camera', this is the message I get: mount: /dev/sda: unknown device I've tried substituting /dev/sda1 for /dev/sda but it makes no difference. Any ideas, please???? Is the order of loading modules important? And is there any utility or command that will list what SCSI devices are actually available for 'mount'? Gerald.

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Re: [Alug] Linux and USB?
by Edenyard 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

On Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:19:20 +0100, Jonathan McDowell wrote: > When you say "SCSI support is already loaded", what exactly do you mean? > SCSI support including SCSI disc support, or just SCSI support? > (sd_mod IIRC if it's a module) > It looks like it isn't even being presented as sda. > According to lsmod, I have these SCSI modules loaded: sd_mod 11856 0 (unused) sg 26592 0 (unused) scsi_mod 94336 3 [usb-storage sd_mod sg] Is that correct, or should I have something else SCSI-wise? Gerald.

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Re: =20 and now 3D as well
by John Seago 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

The latest main list displays, (on my Kmail) both myself and Syd's messages with the =20 on the turn overs, and now, on mine, 3D preceding it as well, (on some lines). What should have been obvious to me in the first place, has just struck me, it may not be that the =20 is appearing in what is sent but only in what is being received by me, at least Syd doesn't seem to think he is sending them on his system. As we are both using Mandrake 8, does this seem likely? I am about to attempt to install both Slackware 8 and Debian, use of these may solve my problem. I'm still battling with BT (full story on request), and beginning to think that I've backed yet another lost cause, would I be better off just walking, (in my case wheeling), away or carrying on the fight? (rhetorical question) -- John Seago "Change is NOT a synonym for Progress"

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EDI and X.400
by Earl Brannigan 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

Hi all, I am about to embark on an Electronic Data Interchange (EDI) project and have no real knowledge of X.400 (also specifically X.435), what it is etc, though I am getting to grips with the EDI message implementation I shall be dealing with. Does anyone know diddly about this stuff and if so please could you point me at some useful resources. I've been to ITU and registered to receive a couple of docs about MHS and EDI (well dissapointing to see them charging for their 'recommendations' documents - Dmitri Skylarov we love you!!). So far I know that I can set up X400 mailboxes in Exchange Server (cringe) but anyone who knows me would know that I would rather set up an enigma machine to decrypt 168bit 3des encoded messages delivered via morse signals over string and paper cups, transcribe them to phonographic cylinder with a sharp pencil and then forward them via carrier pigeon to the desk of the intended recipient!! But if I can do this in Exchange surely I do it with sendmail of something....... Also, I'd love to find some free software which can do the log-on, retrieval and extraction of EDI Messages from the mailbox. So far I have found a couple of proprietary thingies but again this doesn't appeal. Suffice to say I want to do it all under Linux... Sorry if this is a complete noddy email but as you can see I'm completely new to all of this. (I WRITE CODE DAMMIT!!) ;) If necessary I'd write a goodie to do the latter but I'd rather not (though I'll gladly contribute to any projects ongoing at the moment - as ever) Cheers Earl [earl.brannigan(a)lindenhouse.co.uk] www.lindenhouse.co.uk Tel : [+44] (0)1638 750780 Intellectual : Someone who can spend a whole day locked in a room with a tea cosy without once thinking of trying it on. Highbrow : Someone who can listen to the entire William Tell Overture without once thinking of the Lone Ranger.

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Re: [Alug] From out of the shadows...
by MJ Ray 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

"Mat B" <mat.bland(a)btinternet.com> writes: > My name is Mathew and I am a Perl programmer by trade (although I often get "Perl programmer" is a trade now? I thought it was a form of prostitution... ;-) /me runs for the hills and hides from his brothers. Seriously, I think I speak for all the cabal when I say "it's good to have you here". -- MJR Do you need advice about the Internet or particular net services? Why not talk to my employers? See http://www.luminas.co.uk/ for details.

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RE: [ALUG] linux and USB
by u9947868 12 Oct '01

12 Oct '01

I managed to get my Fujifilm Finepix 40i to work with my Toshiba Laptop under Debian 2.2r3 by updating the kernel to 2.4.9, which also meant updating the following utils/modules, check that they are all recent versions: The SCSI modules (they all changed completely for the 2.4.X series kernels) The mount utility USBDEVFS module/util (tells you what devices/drivers you have hooked up, under /proc/bus/usb) I think that should do. There were a few other utils that needed to be upgraded to run my current kernel but they had nothing to to with the SCSI system or USB mass storage devices, or USB itself. If I can get off of my bum and turn up to an ALUG meeting I might bring my laptop and camera if anyone has any trouble setting up their own stuff Pete

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Re: [Alug] Linux and USB?
by Edenyard 12 Oct '01

12 Oct '01

On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:20:45 +0100 (BST), Adam Bower wrote: > This appears to work for most people but I have also not got a camera > so can't check this but looking on a couple of resources on the net you > may want to do an > fdisk -l /dev/sda > to find which partition the camera appears at if mount /dev/sda1 doesn't > work. > I've tried that. I get no response at all: no error message, no listing or any other information of any kind. It just returns to the prompt. What does that signify? I tried 'fdisk -l /dev/hda', just as a sanity check really. That gave me some output. But using /dev/sda it just doesn't want to know. I tried /dev/sda1, too - same result. What's up with this /dev/sda thing? Gerald.

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From out of the shadows...
by Mat B 12 Oct '01

12 Oct '01

Hi, I thought I might as well introduce myself and stop my lurking. My name is Mathew and I am a Perl programmer by trade (although I often get up to other things) and I work at home in a small town called Stowmarket in Suffolk. I started using Linux about 3-4 years ago, but have only picked it up again for a serious crack at it just recently. So for all intents and purposes I am a Linux newbie (so please don't hurt me if I ask some stupid questions). My current distro is Mandrake 7.2 which I am finding quite user friendly and helps a lot in the process of weening me off Windows. I hope to be able to make some meets soon, but work schedule is often hectic and I don't get much free time :( Anyhoo, its been great lurking so far. Hopefully one day I'll be able to contribute in a helpful manner :) Cheers, Mat

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This is weird...
by Ricardo Campos 12 Oct '01

12 Oct '01

OK. This is weird. In the new Linux Format, there is a letter by "Steve Bates" about Enlightenment, and how it crashes with "missing line in config". If anyone has kept an archive of messages from the main list, look at my post with the subject "Crash". VERY VERY similar. In fact the printed one seems to be the same except for it's been trimmed down... Did someone forward the message to Linux Format? Ricardo -- Love Ricardo, "Surely this monstrous hybrid comes not from a mother's womb but from an Ephialtes, an Incubus, or some other horrendous demon, as though spawned in a putrid and venemous fungus, son of Fauns and Nymphs, more Devil than man." -Athanasius Kircher, Mundus Subtarraneus, Amsterdam, 1665, pp.279-280 http://www.rscampos.net Get your @hellokitty.com FREE e-mail account at http://www.sanriotown.com Sanrio Town - Your Ultimate Community to meet Sanrio character & friends. Powered by Outblaze

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