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Re: [Alug] Lurkers (was new subscriber introductions)
by David Freeman 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:00:28 +0100 xsprite(a)bigfoot.com wrote: > on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 12:11:05AM +0000, David Freeman scribbled: > > > > Web server of anything outside of a firewall == OpenBSD > > > Why OpenBSD? > It doesn't even have a mature firewalling system at the momement, let > alone an > easy to use isakmp daemon. > Oh, and they've also dropped qmail, djbdns, publicfile, as well as ipf. Security, lack of wholes. > Even Linux has security-orientated code audits performed on it now. > So how is it more secure/a better choice? I wan't aware that Linux had audits like this. Maybe Linux would be a better choice. > It's hellishly slow on most low spec stuff that you would normally > love to use > as a dedicated firewall/small webserver. A p100 with 8 megs of ram > crawls under > openbsd. The task scheduler pretty crappy. The same box flies under > NetBSD. > Oh, and NetBSD runs under about 44 architectures. But how well audited is netBSD? how many wholes are there in it? Thanks D > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Lurkers (was new subscriber introductions)
by David Freeman 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

On 23 Aug 2001 22:05:12 +0100 MJ Ray wrote: > David Freeman <david_freeman(a)alug.org.uk> writes: > > > I know you need to do an exam for a VHF license (got mine soon) but for > > 802.11 you don't it sits in the Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) > > 802.11? Airsnort! see http://lwn.net/ security section amongst > others. Hey get with the picture, WEP was cracked ages ago. It is known to be easy to crack. As for Airsnort its just a free version of a package I saw for windows which did all the same stuff. If you run 802.11 then you need to run IPSec over the top, its the only way of making it secure. Thanks D -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Announce ALUG 2001.5
by MJ Ray 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

John Woodard <mail(a)johnwoodard.co.uk> writes: > > 1. John Woodard -- "Why I can't install Debian" > Mine was more of a question than a talk. I fear the talk would be rather > short along the lines of "I can't install deb coz I'm a total plonker!" at > leat in the eyes of MJR I am. :-) Oh, OK, we're looking for a new talk, people ;-) A list of problems might be a good challenge to end the block on, though. I'm sure with the hard drive swapping, there's more than enough to draw on for 5 mins or so. And no, John, you're not a plonker from where I'm standing. There's someone far ahead in that contest ;-)

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Re: [Alug] Announce ALUG 2001.5
by David Freeman 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

On Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:14:13 +0100 (BST) Adam Bower wrote: > On 23 Aug 2001, MJ Ray wrote: > > > As those of you who have been to Syleham will know, it is an excellent > > venue for talks. Would someone like to suggest a theme for the > > meeting so that we can run 2 or 3 short 10 to 15 minute talks with > > questions? Other than that, the normal demos will take place. > > I did promise to do a talk on the Debian package management systems apt > and dselect, and the differences between stable, testing and unstable of > Debian. I will also try and talk about the Debian policy of free and > Non-free although most of it will be word for word from the Faq. /me is annoyed at not being there. > I will try and sort this out after the Linux Beer Wanderung, and there > should be photos of the LBW also. If we sobber up and you get that square peg (pile of kit) in the round hole (60L backpack) > I think there may also be the chance to watch NetBSD getting > (well attempting) installed on some old Vax kit! but this depends on other > outside circumstances. That depends on when you pick my vaxes up from cam! As I wont be there I think we can leave this till the next one I can make. Taking a vax on the train sounds like fun :o) Thanks D > Adam > -- > This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed > Adam > > > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Announce ALUG 2001.5
by MJ Ray 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

"John Woodard" <mail(a)johnwoodard.co.uk> writes: > Announce ALUG 2001.5 Point of order, it's 2001.6. I know 2001.5 isn't on the site, but that's Mr Freeman's fault, I think. Can you give us until tomorrow to get this web page online? > are there any I have missed? uklinux.linuxnbsd on news.uklinux.net? As those of you who have been to Syleham will know, it is an excellent venue for talks. Would someone like to suggest a theme for the meeting so that we can run 2 or 3 short 10 to 15 minute talks with questions? Other than that, the normal demos will take place. John, how much is the venue hire this time? Is it more if the bar is opened, or do they need to take a certain amount?

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Re: [Alug] Lurkers (was new subscriber introductions)
by David Freeman 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

On 21 Aug 2001 23:46:10 +0100 MJ Ray wrote: > Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> writes: > > > At the end of the day, the best technical solution is not necessarly the > > best solution [...] > > No, marketing has far too much influence. Why do you think we're > heading up the creek at a rate of knots? Marketing have an awful lot to answer for. I still don't understand how the IBM PC compatable is beating the MAC? > > I don't want people thinking that the community is arguing amoungst > > itself as to which OS/distro is technically superiour. > > But we *are* arguing about what is technically superior and it > encourages innovation. If we try to deny that it happens, people will > be repulsed when they discover these arguments going on. We need to > set the agenda, not just try to answer others' points. Darwinasim in action! The arguing helps the distros to evolve. > > Use what is a good solution for the job, and if that is slackware, > > mandrake, *bsd, suse, debian then so be it.. > > Bah, pragmatist. Does your freedom and the benefits it brings mean > nothing to you? (Notice that you include two freedom-impaired systems > in your list...) HURRAH! IMHO freedom is the most important thing, I now only use free software on my box (except nutscrape as mozilla doesn't work properly quite yet) Also before someone says I am being two faced for saying Novell for file serving, I would like to point out the only time I am going to be doing so would be for money in which case I am kind of prepared to install a non-free package, but only when it is not possible with a free package. One of these days I will do a bench test with linux verses Novell 5. Thanks D > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Alug web site - back to Apache
by David Freeman 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:57:07 GMT Martyn Drake wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:13:06 -0400 Alexis Lee wrote: > > > There's a Perl CGI script called FormMail which lets you get this > > kind of thing very easily. If you go to support.nicnames.net they > > have a lovely page about it somewhere. > > I'll probably end up using a script that I've knocked up in PHP to do the > job. However, I fear that I could be mugged by the rest of the team if I > integrated PHP into the Alug site ;) **shudder** > Also, I've now decided that I'm no longer scrapping Zeus (and thus no > cheapo license - if you do want a cheapo license then go and see > http://www.zeus.com as they're currently doing them half price which is > actually pretty good deal), and thus Apache deployment has been postponed. WHAT! BUT WHY! Apache isn't that difficult to configure, even I did it! Surely you can try again. > The biggest problem with Zeus - for me anyway - is that it makes you > incredibly lazy at administering normal Apache boxes - you just get used > to that web interface :( I sat at the shell prompt this evening in > readiness for migrating to 1.3.19 and thought - "Sod this, Zeus has a > better approach to all of this" and abandoned the idea. No comment. Thanks D > Regards, > > Martyn > > > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Alug web site - back to Apache
by David Freeman 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:00:10 +0100 "Martyn Drake" wrote: > Hi, > > This is a general announcement to say that there will be a brief outage to > the Alug web site (and for that matter - any other web site currently > hosted > with myself) while I convert from Zeus to Apache. The principle > reason for > this is that it's not going to be cost effective for me to run the Zeus > server anymore - particularly now that Zeus have moved over to an annual > support contract for the most part. If anybody is looking to use the Zeus > server in their organisation and would like a cheap license - then contact > me ;) Hurrah! I see a certain list admins (Mark, stop gloating) opinions of you raising as I type. A free web server thats how we like it :o) > Therefore, it's back to good old Apache, hopefully as from tomorrow > evening. > I'll be running version 1.3.19 with all the trimmings, including PHP 4.0.6 > for anybody that needs it, and mysql support (which may infuriate a few). PHP **shudder**, MySQL **Shudder Shudder** Are you running the machines as a load of virtual servers? I have just been told the firewall at uni only lets out port 80 and 443 which is kind of annoying. > With regards to the Postgres database that has been suggested - I will > definately install this within the next couple of weeks when I get a > chance > to sit down and play it with properly. I'll then open it up for anybody > that wants a fiddle with it. Fantastic. <fx action="add another beer the one I already owe Martyn"> > As stated before - if any members want web space/email - just shout. I'll > try to set everything up within 24 hours depending on what's going on > (I've > my wedding to plan (invites still going out, need to book marquee, etc, > etc.) amongst many, many other things). Can recommend this, very cool. > Heck, maybe even create a small form on the main Alug web site > that'll email > me the details of requested web hosting and it'll email me the details for > processing. What do people think? Thanks D > Regards, > > Martyn > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Re: alug request rejected
by Martyn Drake 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

What I'm going to suggest is that maybe the Alug could have an area on the web site or even FTP space (not anonymous however!) so that members can share files easily without having to use the mailing list for this sort of thing (i.e. just point the URL in the body of the message). Regards, Martyn On 23 Aug 2001 11:44:41 +0100 MJ Ray wrote: > Alexis Lee <alexis(a)turton.com> writes: > > > Sorry guys, you're not going to be allowed to review this. > > They could if you posted it in accordance with the rules. > > > Could it not just append MIME text/plain to the end of the > > message? > > It wasn't marked as text/plain anyway. > > Maybe the move to mailman2 on lists.alug.org.uk (may happen > tonight) might fix this. Anyone care to test by sending an > attachment to social(a)lists.alug.org.uk (just one now)? > > MJR

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Re: [Alug] Re: alug request rejected
by MJ Ray 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

Alexis Lee <alexis(a)turton.com> writes: > Sorry guys, you're not going to be allowed to review this. They could if you posted it in accordance with the rules. > Could it not just append MIME text/plain to the end of the message? It wasn't marked as text/plain anyway. Maybe the move to mailman2 on lists.alug.org.uk (may happen tonight) might fix this. Anyone care to test by sending an attachment to social(a)lists.alug.org.uk (just one now)? MJR

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Re: Window managers // was Re: [Alug] Website
by MJ Ray 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

Alexis Lee <alexis(a)turton.com> writes: > > I still don't understand why non-hackers like E so much. Surely the > Wash your mouth out. Now let's see: spend CPU on making pretty pictures or spend CPU on doing useful stuff... I know which I choose. E is bad for the environment, using all that extra electricity on machines that would otherwise have idle time. ;-) > But the point is that nothing is perfect for everyone (arguably anyone). > So the best one can do is to supply a good design, then give people the > tools to turn it into their private utopia. What E itself does is provide essentially no interface design, though. It's not even a good starting point. People still have the tools anyway...

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Re: alug request rejected
by Alexis Lee 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

alug-admin(a)stu.uea.ac.uk wrote: > has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the I wrote: > Attached is the current jobs.xml. Have a look, it's not scary. > If anyone would like to be put down for any of the categories (Editors, > Hosts, Experts, Others), mail me. Sorry guys, you're not going to be allowed to review this. Could it not just append MIME text/plain to the end of the message? Bah humbug. Never mind, it'll be on the web tomorrow, have a look then. Alexis

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Excellent 'Doze piss-take!
by Laurie Brown 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

You people will really like this! http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/28/21211.html Cheers, Laurie.

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Re: [Alug] tty puzzle
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

Jo wrote: >So, stay up all night watching it and see what it does ;) Jo, you are such a comfort in times of need.

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Window managers // was Re: [Alug] Website
by MJ Ray 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

Alexis Lee <alexis(a)turton.com> writes: > As am I, I would merely suggest blackbox over E on non-decent > computers. And E has those extra features that make things a bit > comfier than blackbox. [...] I still don't understand why non-hackers like E so much. Surely the only attraction is that you can write a bit of code to totally change the user interface and force you to re-learn it all? Then again, if the interface is the best possible one at the start, there would be no need to rewrite it... configurability is a poor substitute for a good design. I'm currently using a very simple window management setup. Windows just have a bar along their top edge, which contains the title. You grab it with the left button to move them, click with the middle to shade the window, or the left to sink the window behind all others. There's a box at the right-hand end. A left click minimises, middle resizes the window and right destroys it. There is a small panel at the bottom, mostly like a task bar, but with up/down buttons to flip desktops and edge buttons to hide it. There is a small corner panel at top-left, containing icons to start programs, although I'm likely to get rid of that and start using an Apps folder again soon. This is done with sapphire and rox... both devel lists are regular love-ins and you can find both at sourceforge.

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Re: [Alug] Website
by MJ Ray 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

Andrew Glover <flexifoil(a)btinternet.com> writes: > Hi Alexis, Is this meant for the list? > This is pretty much my view too. I cant be responsible for them all, > but would gladly share it with someone else. So probably alternating > each one is best? There are two parts, really: the venue and the promotion. If one does one and the other the other, it should go wonderfully. > And I dont mind who does October first. Are you a student there? Which > year? Im year 2 sys student. After a quick look, im guessing this > might be you? > http://www.uea.ac.uk/menu/staff_and_students/enrol/ueanetwork/SYS/9953647.h… That made me panic, as that URL wouldn't be restricted. The correct URL is http://www.uea.ac.uk/menu/staff_and_students/enrol/ueanetwk/SYS/9953647.html and you need either a UEA central login or a sick VPN like mine to see it. I still think that stuff being published is an invasion of privacy.

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Re: [Alug] Alug web site - back to Apache
by MJ Ray 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

Martyn Drake <martyn(a)alug.org.uk> writes: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:13:06 -0400 Alexis Lee wrote: > > There's a Perl CGI script called FormMail which lets you get this > > kind of thing very easily. If you go to support.nicnames.net they > > have a lovely page about it somewhere. I don't think that this was originally sent to the list, else I would have felt compelled to point out that there are many very buggy versions of formmail out there which allow all sorts of nasties to be done to your server.

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Re: [Alug] Website
by David Freeman 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:56:45 -0400 Alexis Lee wrote: > Hiya, > I'm going to be webmonking for ALUG soon, so as a first step could > I have nominations for people who do stuff for ALUG. Is that webmonk as in perl monk or web monkeying with a missing ey? Anyway, good luck! :o) > Currently I have Mark and I as web editors, Freeman as bookmonkey > and Adam as FAQ maintainer. If the venue organisers would like their > names to go on the jobs list as well as on the individual venue pages, > drop me a mail. I am the book monkey, also professional sceptic and also put me down for wireless monkey. > Also I would like to compile a list of definitive web references for > various things. I have a few programming language ones (Java, C, PHP, > ASP) and a few web ones (HTML, CSS, neither perfect). Does this sound > a good idea? It probably isn't a good idea to start linking to compile > instructions, since we'd end up having a link to every cool project on > the web. C == The new testiment/Bible/'C Programming Language' by Kernighan and Richie Java == Java in a nutshell, Thinking in Java, Core Java HTML == http://werbach.com/barebones/ PHP == /dev/null Ask me specifics and I can help. > Speaking of which, one of my .sig quotes is a list of a few cool > things I've found. Would this make a good page (with a broken links > disclaimer at the top, and lots of contributions)? Focus on utilities > that open up new areas (IE expect, cron/at) rather than apps which > merely do their job well (IE mozilla, IMHO). Go ahead, could be interesting > Heck, maybe an article discussing the perceived merits of each distro? > If we could get an advocate from each distro, an article would come > together quickly. Note I wish to focus purely on why one ought to use > distro X, rather than not use distro Y. <fx action="light blue touch paper and retire to safe distance"> Why not add which editor, browser, window manager, shell, mail client etc... :o) Thanks D > Alexis > -- > "All programmers are optimists" - Frederick P. Brooks, Jr. > Failure- When your best just isn't good enough. > "Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate that" > > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Website
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

PHP stuff: http://www.php.net/tut.php http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/PHP/SoothinglySeamless/ http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/programming/php/tutorials/tutorial4.html http://www.phpbuilder.com/ Downloadable books : linux programming and VIM http://www.newriders.com/opl/ Debian guide http://www.newriders.com/debian/html/noframes/debian-tutorial.html Linux tips http://www.scrounge.org/index.html#linux Samba http://infobase.informit.com/linux/content/bookframe.html?0672316099 TomCat/Apache HowTo http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-3.2-doc/tomcat-apache-howto.html#ht…

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sabcmd
by oms101＠freeuk.com 23 Aug '01

23 Aug '01

could you please put sabcmd in the cvs system as then it will be simpler to setup and get started with the web site. If this is a bad idea due to the size of sabcmd why because we have all got to use it to produce alug web pages. so it might as well come all in one peace. Owen Date: 23-Aug-01 Time: 00:24:08

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Re: [Alug] Lurkers (was new subscriber introductions)
by David Freeman 22 Aug '01

22 Aug '01

On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:02:53 +0100 (BST) linux user stuff wrote: > On Sun 19 Aug, David Freeman wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Aug 2001 12:41:29 +0100 (BST) "D.I. Redhouse" wrote: > [snip] > > > Possibly my least interesting experience to date was trying to > work out > > > why `the internet isn't working' via mobile phone whilst standing > on top > > > of a Bronze Age barrow somewhere in the Fens. > > > > Have you tried using a real networking technique, if you can get a > little > > bit of height and some big twigs yoy could use 1-11Mbps wireless > ethernet > > to connect these up, we have had success with over 8 miles per link! > > I saw this being setup at the only meet I've attended, at the UEA, > but didn't > manage to find out any detail. In company with another Linux user that > occasionally lurks here, I attend meetings of another local computer group > and this seems like it would be useful for us. If this isn't the > right place > for the detail, perhaps you could email me privately. What do you want to know? I am thinking of righting something for the website on this, but I have been busy righting my first RFC "IP over Liquid Beverage Containers" of late so haven't had much time. If you want to forward me some questions you want answered I will add them as FAQ and also answer them. Oh and BTW it was me who did the stuff at the UEA. Thanks D > Thanks. > > -- > __ __| |_ __ __ .------------------------------------------. > / _/ _` \ V V / | mailto:linux@wymondham.demon.co.uk | > \__\__,_|\_/\_/ |__________________________________________| > > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! -- "Your house sounds like a fire hazard" Peter Clarke

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Re: [Alug] Alug web site - back to Apache
by Martyn Drake 22 Aug '01

22 Aug '01

On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:13:06 -0400 Alexis Lee wrote: > There's a Perl CGI script called FormMail which lets you get this > kind of thing very easily. If you go to support.nicnames.net they > have a lovely page about it somewhere. I'll probably end up using a script that I've knocked up in PHP to do the job. However, I fear that I could be mugged by the rest of the team if I integrated PHP into the Alug site ;) Also, I've now decided that I'm no longer scrapping Zeus (and thus no cheapo license - if you do want a cheapo license then go and see http://www.zeus.com as they're currently doing them half price which is actually pretty good deal), and thus Apache deployment has been postponed. The biggest problem with Zeus - for me anyway - is that it makes you incredibly lazy at administering normal Apache boxes - you just get used to that web interface :( I sat at the shell prompt this evening in readiness for migrating to 1.3.19 and thought - "Sod this, Zeus has a better approach to all of this" and abandoned the idea. Regards, Martyn

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Linux Expo Birmingham re-scheduled from 12th-13th september 2001 to 29th 30 th May 2002. (fwd)
by Adam Bower 22 Aug '01

22 Aug '01

Hi all, Just got this mail in my inbox, so it is now on for May. I think we will organise an outing a bit nearer the time. Adam -- This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed Adam ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: Linux Expo Birmingham re-scheduled from 12th-13th september 2001 to 29th 30 th May 2002. Dear Visitor, Thank you for registering for LINUX EXPO BIRMINGHAM. Please note that the show has been RE-SCHEDULED from 12th-13th September 2001 to 29TH-30TH MAY 2002. The show will still take place at the NEC and will have exactly the same focus, dedicated to GNU/Linux and Open Source Solutions. There is no need to register again - we will re-register you automatically for the 29TH-30TH MAY 2002. Apologies for any inconvenience caused by re-scheduling the show. We look forward to seeing you in May for a high-quality show! Yours Sacha Dunas CEO Sky Events / Linux Expo Tél : 0143456600 Fax : 0143459244 Portable : 0672802604 Email : sacha.dunas(a)sky-events.com Linux Expo 2002 Amsterdam - 19 - 20 February Paris - 30 - 31 & 1 February Madrid - 3 - 4 April Sao Paulo - 15 - 16 May Birmingham - 29 - 30 May Milan - June Sky Events 12 avenue de Corbera 75012 Paris

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Re: [Alug] Website
by MJ Ray 22 Aug '01

22 Aug '01

Alexis Lee <alexis(a)turton.com> writes: > Must say I've never heard of ae. Is it _really_ simple? I mentioned Pico > because literally any idiot can use it (well, if they figure out ^X means > CTRL-X). ae and easyedit are both very simple and easy to use. PICO is hardly *that* good and the odd licence means it shouldn't be mentioned in polite society any more. jpico (joe's pico emulation) is an improvement for people that can't/won't move onto a real emacs yet.

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Re: [Alug] tty puzzle
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 22 Aug '01

22 Aug '01

Jonathon McDowell wrote: >> If I leave my debian box on, I come in in the morning to find the >> screen displaying erratic debugging messages to do with pg_indexes and >> suchlike, with letters omitted, where I had left the login prompt. >At a guess you have postgres installed and PGDEBUG is not set to zero >and POSTGRES_LOG isn't set in /etc/postgresql/postmaster.init Thanks, Jonathon, this could well be it. It seems to have made the box go crazy, - all the consoles look like miniature galaxies and half the keyboard letters won't respond, meaning i can't log in, or shutdown cleanly. Will I have to crash out here? Bum. Jenny.

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