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RE: Who .NEEDS it ...?
by Earl Brannigan 19 Jul '01

19 Jul '01

Hi Andrew... On 19 July 2001 12:02, Andrew J Glover [SMTP:flexifoil@btinternet.com] wrote: > Umm. No. C# isnt C Like. Then it is a misappropriation of 'C'. If its Java-like then it is C-Like in so far as Java is C-Like. Like. >Very much Java like, and I actually found it a > little nicer to program than Java! Flame away! Flaming is not my speciality! (Complaining about M$ is though) We all have our preferences, it is likewise easier to program in Java than C++. But first you have to know Java, and first you have to know C# (Both would require an initial and ongoing investment of time and money to learn). If M$ hadn't been such w**nkers over Java, had co-operated instead of trying to embrace and extend then they could have helped to improve Java, contributed to its evolution. But NO. Because Sun wouldn't play ball and let M$ bastardise Java in their usual manner M$ decided to use their best boffins to 'innovate' something appears remarkably close to it (whether standards or not). And then there's the 'shared source' license ..... another time perhaps.. Cheers Regards Earl

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Ow! MS strikes out against cross-platform?
by MJ Ray 19 Jul '01

19 Jul '01

I was just sent this via the FSFEurope.org mailing lists. I recoil in horror that they might get away with this. What do others think? Is Java going to die, will this become an "optional" plug-in like VBRUN.dll was on Windows 3, or is Java mostly used on the server side anyway? Slashdotters will have seen this anyway, but here's choice clips from http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2790355,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnew… A Microsoft spokesman said Java support was diminished for "business reasons" After Windows XP is launched in October, users will be directed to download a plug-in from Microsoft's Web site (www.microsoft.com) to make Java-based programs work. "if you want your Web page accessible to the largest number of people, you may want to drop Java" and switch to Microsoft's competing set of products, which is under development and is known as .Net. Microsoft's new products will now screen out Java as a possible carrier of computer viruses in e-mail and, under high-security settings, in Web-browsing software. ... Microsoft's new security rules don't halt the transmission of e-mail attachments that contain Microsoft Word or Excel "macros," Microsoft didn't announce the change. [Above Copyright 2001 ZD Inc. See their site for confusing terms. I think this complies. Foo.]

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Re: [Alug] Mail Clients Which one do you use?
by MJ Ray 19 Jul '01

19 Jul '01

oms101(a)freeuk.com writes: > [...] What I want to know is what is your mail set up and what is > its faults. Exim on the outbound (was an earlyish smail user), fetchmail on the inbound and Gnus on the user interface. It's a bit of a pig to set up initially, but it really does do everything.

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[fwd] Re: Very Worried at MS .net
by MJ Ray 19 Jul '01

19 Jul '01

As promised, the message from Alex Hudson to FSF Europe's Discussion list. To: discussion(a)fsfeurope.org Subject: Re: Very Worried at MS .net On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 01:10:27AM +0100, Alistair Davidson wrote: > .NET is a framework (VM, development tool, and standards suite) for > developing and deploying "web services" Not quite accurate - and this is why most people are confused. Ignore the marketing - .NET is the new Windows API. It provides a platform for web services, yes, but that's only one aspect of it. MS are pushing the web stuff hard, because it's a pretty new feature for them, but the other stuff shouldn't be ignored. Hailstorm and Passport are .net services - .net is as network integrated as you like, some things will only work over the network, some things will be local only. Hailstorm and Passport are two examples of .net services which are network-enabled. > One presumes that 3rd parties will be able to run HailStorm and > Passport-style services (MS claims that the HailStorm protocol is open, > at least). Hailstorm, I think you're right in saying, is open. Passport definitely isn't - and I would imagine that MS will want to keep it that way. Whether or not it can be reverse engineered depends on how well it's been done, I would suspect not. > There's no obvious reason, from the user or developer's end of things, > for MS to do this. I would forget the .net == Office For Rent scenario, it's not going to happen. Microsoft are too clever for that. > I'm not sure about passport, but how hard would it be to > reverse-engineer the thing if it's closed? Given it's supposed to be engineered around PKI, I would be surprised if it was reverse-engineerable, although it might be possible. I would assume, though, that MS will have gone to lengths to prevent people getting into it at a protocol level. Cheers, Alex.

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Problem Solved... for now... I think
by John Seago 19 Jul '01

19 Jul '01

I've got round my problems with Red Hat by installing Mandrake 8 over the top of it. the ultimate way out for the terminally confused. The Error message with balsa was `Authentication Failed'. Yesterday I realised that I actually had what I was looking for when I first got the Email and Web browser to work, as all the features were there that I used on Windows, (plus I can now get at my Windows files),but instead of just getting on and using it, I seem to have became hooked, and now will not give up until I can get everything working. Ultimate target a full set of Debian! (Is it addictive? I used to regard the computer as an electric typewriter with an electronic filing system, that cluttered up four times the space that my trusty typewriter did. Now I can't seem to stop until I can control it all!) John Seago

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Re: [Alug] Ow! MS strikes out against cross-platform?
by MJ Ray 19 Jul '01

19 Jul '01

Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> writes: > Well, there are parts of .Net that are sane and sensible, and it doesn't > hurt to have another framework for internet application development. This one could. We all know where Linux fails most: where it's trying to play catch-up to a microsoft-led technology. It's time to stop staring at the competition waiting for them to make the next move and start blazing our own trail. After all, that's where the big advances and successes have been made: new technology. If we just slavishly follow, we'll always be behind and Linux will never make the mainstream. YMMV.

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Re: [Alug] Crashes on phylisophy
by MJ Ray 19 Jul '01

19 Jul '01

Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> writes: > Yup, it's the swiss army knife of mail readers. Haven't found the toggle > to make a cup of tea when new mail arrives yet, though. Really? In Gnus, you just add the x10 command function to the new mail hook. Welcome to the swiss army kitchen sink of mail readers ;-)

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Re: [Alug] Crashes on phylisophy
by MJ Ray 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> writes: > mutt can use any external editor you ask it to. I use it with both pico > and vim, depending on mood... if [ $(($RANDOM % 2)) == 1 ] ; then vim $* ; else pico $* ; fi ?

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Crashes on phylisophy
by David Freeman 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

Can some one please explain something. When ever I get really deap and into a reply to an email which is deap meaningful and usually very philisophical Netscape causes linux to crash. The symtoms are the computer can't keep up with my typing, the harddisk rattles away at full tilt and then the mouse wonders randomly around the screen with out control, this is driving me mad, can anyone explain why? also does anyone know of a mail client addon for VIM or any mail client which uses the Vi commands? thanks D PS Fozzy I will reply when I stop getting crashes! ===== -------------------- "We all know Linux is great... it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." Linus Torvalds __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] Ow! MS strikes out against cross-platform?
by MJ Ray 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> writes: > Not even slightly. .Net is a framework for internet applications. Not quite. I'll forward the best explanation I've been sent as soon as I find it again. > .Net is yet another way of Microsoft embracing, > extending and ultimately consuming the internet. So, should Free Software (Mono, dotGNU) be aiding and abetting them in this smash and grab on Eden?

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Re: [Alug] Bash script help please!
by MJ Ray 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

bsamuels(a)datamansys.co.uk writes: > Can I automate this process from within a script? Yes, possibly, with .netrc and ftp, but why don't you tell us the actual problem you're trying to solve with this script and comparison and there's probably another solution out there.

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ISDN Question
by Mathew Bland 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

Hi, Does anyone have any experience with BTInternet and ASUSCom (with Winbond chipset) ISDN cards with Mandrake? The problem I have is this: I used to run Mandrake with an old ISA Eicon ISDN card, and I could connect to the internet and all was well with the world. Due to harddrive failure I lost Mandrake for a while and recently decided to reinstall it. This time around though, I have a new ASUSCom PCI ISDN card. Mandrake detected and (appeared) to set it all up correctly. I checked all the relevant files (resolv.conf,mycard,myisp,pap-secrets and chap-secrets) to ensure that it had set them all up ok and everything looked fine. So, I begin to connect to the internet in the normal way (ifup ippp0, isdnctrl dial ippp0 etc) and it appeared to connect correctly. The only problem is, that I cannot go *anywhere* on the internet. I cannot ping any internet IP (except the one given to me by the ISP on connection) and when I do a nslookup it fails to find the nameservers. Also the netgraph that I have running shoots up to full until I disconnect. I have heard that BTInternet uses CHAP authentication, could this be a problem?? I am considering putting the old card back in, but that strikes me as a bit defeatist... Mat

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Re: [Alug] Questions from a test
by MJ Ray 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > > a) Runlevel 5 automatically starts the X window system T/F > So what answer would you put for this question, bear in mind most of > the other questions are refering to Redhat 7 explisitly. "It depends on what the inittab says." Also, note that X has access control to stop unwelcome applications shoving their windows in your face. Many people run X with tcp disabled.

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Re: [Alug] Version Numbers
by Andrew.Chandler＠ftid.com 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

/me wonders if all RedHat versions are development versions!! John, No, not for RedHat, SuSE et cetera.... Does Debian? Andi John Seago <john.seago(a)btinternet.com> on 17/07/2001 17:26:28 To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk cc: (bcc: Andrew Chandler/PSD/LONDON/FTI) Subject: [Alug] Version Numbers RFC822 message headers I am currently wrestling with Red Hat 7.1, (seawolf). Do the issue/version numbers in the full package follow the same numbering system as the kernel numbering, is 7.1 a development version of 7? If so would I be better off getting hold of issue seven, as some applications seem to crash, (this is most likely due to my blundering than any inherent fault). Having got the KDE Email and web browser up and running I am now trying to get Balsa to work, the incoming mail is fine but with the same settings as in KDE it does not seem to work, obviously there is something I've missed. Can anyone advise me please? John Seago _______________________________________________ alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub!

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[Fwd: Re: [Alug] Version Numbers]
by Michael Lincoln 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

For everyone who missed by rant (I'm sure you care 8) ) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Alug] Version Numbers Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:57:49 +0100 From: Michael Lincoln <mclinc(a)essex.ac.uk> To: Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> References: <01071717262800.01024(a)localhost.localdomain> <87k817rxfr.fsf(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> <3B55456B.F23C81F3(a)entora.co.uk> Neill Newman wrote: >MJ Ray wrote: > >>John Seago <john.seago(a)btinternet.com> writes: >> >>>system as the kernel numbering, is 7.1 a development version of 7? >>> >>With RedHat, no, as far as I know. >> > > >nope, the numbers are just that.. the devel version of redhat is called >rawhide, and lives on several mirror archives if you want to have aplay >with it... > >>>If so would I be better off getting hold of issue seven, as some >>>applications seem to crash, (this is most likely due to my blundering >>>than any inherent fault). >>> >>I've heard the criticism of RedHat that they have done a "if it >>compiles, ship it" strategy with 7.1 rather a lot recently. Can any >>of our RedHat users confirm or deny that? >> > > >I can deny that, While I am sure that there are bugs with various pieces >of RedHat that have shipped, there are also a comparable number of bug >and security releases with other distro's. I have been using redhat for >about 5 years now, and in my experience they do a 6 month ship cycle, >and three months after the last release they freeze versions and work on >getting the bugs out (unless a security alert is made on a package).. >imho they don';t just ship it if it compiles...I've used all versions >since 3.0.3, and 7.1 is definatly more stable/more features than any >other release (ok, I acknowledge the gcc argument, but i'm not going to >get drawn into it again ;)... > >hth >Sz > I can conferm this! Redhat have realy f**ked up on more that one occation by shipping software that is broken, when there where perfectly good alternatives. They are always shipping development versions of libc. Sure they are driving the technology forwards very quickly by geting this software tested by millions of people, but persionaly I'd rather It wasn't me that was forced into the testing. I have no problems running beta software. My X-server was complied weekly out of CVS for about a year, but I do like to have a choise. I want a distro thats broken *after* I've been at it, not before 8). (hence I dont use redhat) Did you actualy use RH 5.0 ? Please, dont use the word "stable" near it! Sure redhat has more features than something like slackware, but it's _nothing like_ as stable. For me SuSE is a happy medium. Simple out of the box installs that do everything & more than I need, and relatively well built cf. Redhat. I installed SuSE 7.1 the otherday and its the best I've seen from SuSE yet. Almost everything worked out of the box. USB mouse/keyboard/printer, WinTV card, SCSI, ethernet, my visor, even theres even an RPM for the temperature sensor on my motherboard! - every bit of hardware I have. It comes with 2.4.2 +patches kernel. You can download XF 4.1.0 rpms from there ftp site and these work with H/W accel. openGL with no hacking. I droped in kernel 2.4.6, no need to upgrade anything. Hit the online autoupdate button on yast2 and it applied all the updates. Yast1 configured LVM form me. Infact to get the (desktop) system to a useable state all I had to hand edit was the conf.modules file to get the kernel drivers for my sound blaster working. (alsa has never liked my SB16 for some reasion). Oh yes, and they mannage to release security fixes too. I suspect they also have a feature freeze *before* they release, like anyone without a death wish 9). Having used both SuSE and RedHat for extened periods of time I'd have to recommend SuSE to anyone. There is simply no reasion to use RedHat anymore. Even the comercial support argument has gone. SuSE has 38% of the Americal market share OTTOMH Anyway rant over, must do some work... Mike > >>_______________________________________________ >>alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list >>Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk >>http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug >>See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! >> >

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Re: [Alug] Version Numbers
by MJ Ray 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> writes: > Thank goodness Debian's release process is as rigourous as it is. Shame it > takes them 2 years to punt one out, though... Steady on... it's only been 1 year since 2.2 and there have been 3 security releases. The freeze for 3.0 has started. 18 months is probably closer ;-)

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Version Numbers
by John Seago 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

I am currently wrestling with Red Hat 7.1, (seawolf). Do the issue/version numbers in the full package follow the same numbering system as the kernel numbering, is 7.1 a development version of 7? If so would I be better off getting hold of issue seven, as some applications seem to crash, (this is most likely due to my blundering than any inherent fault). Having got the KDE Email and web browser up and running I am now trying to get Balsa to work, the incoming mail is fine but with the same settings as in KDE it does not seem to work, obviously there is something I've missed. Can anyone advise me please? John Seago

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Re: [Alug] Version Numbers
by MJ Ray 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

John Seago <john.seago(a)btinternet.com> writes: > system as the kernel numbering, is 7.1 a development version of 7? With RedHat, no, as far as I know. > If so would I be better off getting hold of issue seven, as some > applications seem to crash, (this is most likely due to my blundering > than any inherent fault). I've heard the criticism of RedHat that they have done a "if it compiles, ship it" strategy with 7.1 rather a lot recently. Can any of our RedHat users confirm or deny that?

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Re: [Alug] Where to buy a Slackware 8.0 box in the UK?
by Joss Winn 18 Jul '01

18 Jul '01

Thanks for your suggestions on where to get Slackware 8 in the UK. What I really want though is to buy the offical box set with manual. Partly to support the distribution and partly because I want the printed manual. Any sugestions on the offical box set are still very welcome. cheers! Joss --

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Re: [Alug] Bash script help please!
by MJ Ray 17 Jul '01

17 Jul '01

bsamuels(a)datamansys.co.uk writes: > Is it possible to compare the sizes of two files from within a Bash > script? I don't need to know the actual sizes just which one is the > bigger file. bigger_file=$(ls -S1 file1 file2 | head -1) > I can't find anything useful in the Bash man page. That'll be because it's in the ls man page. Hope that helps.

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make-kpkg buildpackage
by Andrew J Glover 17 Jul '01

17 Jul '01

Hello, I finally got round to running 'make-kpkg buildpackage'... And installed the resulting debs. However /usr/include/linux still hasnt been updated to the current kernel headers, is this "normal" behavoir for that, I thought it would update them... Help please! Andrew

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Re: [Alug] Beta testers needed for off-topic Alug list :)
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 17 Jul '01

17 Jul '01

Martyn: I still can't see you from here - my subscription is being bounced: "No route found to domain lists.alug.org.uk from server NOTESSERVER/TCL. Check DNS configuration." Anything I can do? Jenny

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Re: [Alug] Beta testers needed for off-topic Alug list :)
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 17 Jul '01

17 Jul '01

Adam Bower wrote: >does lists.alug.org.uk exist ? just it seems unreachable. I can't get this link to work either. Jen

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Ooops....
by Earl Brannigan 17 Jul '01

17 Jul '01

Hi all, Couple of points : 1)If I have to wait until the full digest comes then I have to scan for those threads I am following - sometimes the digest is massive. But if I get cc'd I see where the discussion is going in 'real' time and can ensure I know the score. Recent posts on religion and spelling a case in point. I had no idea until this morning's digest that so many people were pissed with the discussion going the way it did, by which time I had already posted. Whats more, the digest is just that, a digest of the ongoing discussions. How often have I responded to a question posed in the digest then with the next digest found multiple replies prior to mine, which were evidently posted prior to the digest being generated ? Alot of other lists either send out each mail to all subscribers (eg. mod_ssl mailing list) or advise if someone has posted a response in the same thread or as a reply to yours. 2)People do go off topic occasionally, I don' t think its such a bad thing, we are not robots, there are a number of things which we 'bring to the party' if they are relevant. Whether something is relevant or not can be pretty subjective. Free software is a community of people. User Groups are made up of people. Of course there needs to be some discipline to avoid tons of off -topic stuff cluttering things up, but people first! 3)If people are resigning from the list because a thread went off topic then I am very disappointed. Surely a complaint/flame against the culprits is better. (I can handle it, no asbestos required). Or to put it another way :Grow up and Get a Life! Finally, I don't actually think the thread was that far off topic. I could go into a number of (arguably interesting) parallels between the history of the church and the evolution of free software. But who cares! BTW, for what its worth, I am an atheist. (Or is that too far off topic, maybe I should resign from the list...) Cheers Earl

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Beta testers needed for off-topic Alug list :)
by Martyn Drake 17 Jul '01

17 Jul '01

Hi, I've set-up a list called (thanks to Mark Ray for the suggestion of the name) social(a)lists.alug.org.uk, which does exactly as it says on the tin. It's intended to move off-topic threads onto a seperate mailing list so that much more Linuxy thing can be discussed on this general list. I need people to help test it, and the best way to do that is to use it. All you need to do is visit http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/social for more information. I've attempted to keep the look and feel of the main subscription list information page, but there may still be a few bugs here and there. Regards, Martyn

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