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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Joss Winn <joss(a)josswinn.org> writes: > The University accomodation doesn't look that attractive after living in > my own house for the last few years, although I don't mind the sound of > some of the networked rooms available. However it is unlikely I will be > offered one. I've been told all campus rooms will be networked by Christmas at a university committee meeting yesterday. I'll leave it to others to remark about when they originally planned to have it done by. ;-) > Assuming I will look for shared accomodation or a studio flat, can > anybody tell me about the availability of cable or DSL in the area? ADSL is supposed to arrive early next year, first to Norwich City exchange, then to Norwich West a couple of weeks later, so I think that means almost all student accommodation will be covered. Clearly BT aren't quite as stupid as I give them credit for. > If anyone has _any_ advice at all regarding accomodation and computing > for a post-grad student, I'd be very grateful. Oh, beware. Many departments at the university are still what I consider "Linux-hostile". Very few (eg MTH) are Linux-friendly and most are neutral. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

Neil Sedger <n.sedger(a)bigfoot.com> writes: > Really? Where'd you get that gem of info from? I've been squeezing > BT's 'no idea sir' telestaff about every 2 months for the last > year... It's on their web site somewhere. I got the URL from uk.local.east-anglia originally, I think. > Although I then spoke to BTOpenworld, the ISP that uses ADSL. *One* ISP. Personally, I'd avoid them. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > BT has the technologie and ability to role out ADSL to everyone, except > it costs so much to do. OFTEL wont let us loss lead the excersise to > allow us to get lots of penetration into the market. [...] I don't think you should use "us" here. You are not allowed to speak on the behemoth's behalf. My opinion is that BT is solely interested in screwing as much money as possible out of the current technologies (eg ISDN) before having to discount them when they introduce the superior DSL systems. If BT had our interests at heart, they would be planning to do residential DSL through the normal connectors, which I think is now possible, and wouldn't require the engineer to come and rip holes in my wall again. > Find a place with an always on connection (i.e. UEA) and then put a > 802.11b base station with highpower antenna up on the roof, directed at [...] What prices are wireless networking equipment now? Is it getting to the point where sharing a single higher speed connection among a street is an economic reality? How would the service provider view this? Shouldn't we just network ourselves anyway and sod the telcos? I seem to recall that some American towns have taken this route. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by MJ Ray 13 Jun '01

13 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > BT is a corporation and as such has the mission of screwing money from > people, and while people are still gullable enought to be screwed, they > will continue screwing, why else do we get charged so much for things > in this country. [...] Aren't we meant to have regulators to guard against this sort of thing? It's all well and good to say "don't pay for it if it's too expensive", but there is no alternative to BT's monopoly, until wireless becomes viable for general use (and the antennae can be sited on the rooftops instead of by people). -- MJR

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alug-announce digest, Vol 1 #1 - 2 msgs
by alug-announce-admin＠stu.uea.ac.uk 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Send alug-announce mailing list submissions to alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug-announce or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to alug-announce-request(a)stu.uea.ac.uk You can reach the person managing the list at alug-announce-admin(a)stu.uea.ac.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of alug-announce digest..." oMMMoMo Mo MMMMMMMoMo " "o"o"o"o oMMMoMoM oMMMMMM"MMM" " " " " " "o"o "oMMMoMMM " oMo"M"oo MM" " MoMoMMMMMMM oM " " "oMMM " " MoMMMMMoMoMoooo Mo MMM MoMoMMMMMoMMMMM o" MoM " MoMM "MMo"oMoMMMoM"" MM " MMMMo MMMMMoMMMMMM" oM " MoMMM MMMoMMMo"MM Mo" "MMoMo ooMMMMMMMoMo" oMo oMoMMM " "oMoMMMoMoMo MoM oMoMMM MMMMMMMMMoMMM "oM oMoMMM "M"M"MMoMMMo" " o "oo " MMMM" MMMMMoMoM o" " "oM " " " "o MMMoMMMo"o M " oM " " MMMMMMMoMo o" "oMoMoooMo" " o " " MMoMMMoMoMo " "o"o MM"""""""oM oM " "MMo oMMMMMoMMMoMo " """ """ " o"MMMMoMMMoMMMo"MMo"o" o o o oo MMMMMMoMMMoMMMoMoMo MMMMM MMMo oMMM MMMo MMoMMM oMoMMMoMMMoMMMoMMMo"o oMMMMM MMMo oMMM "MMo MMM "MM MMMMMMMoMMMMMMMoMMMM" " " MMo"MMo MMMo oMM" MMMo oMM" """ " MoMMMoMMMoMMMo" " " MMMoMMMo MMMo oMM" MMMo oMM"oMoMo " "MMoMMMoMMM " " MMMMMMMo MMMo oMM" MMMo oMM" "MM oMMMoMoMoMMMoMMMoMo" " oMM" "oMM" "MMMMM" "MMMMM" MMMoMM" ooMMMMMMMoMMMMMMMoMMMoMo "M" " " " " " """ """ "oM """oMM" " " "MMoMMMoMMMoMM" " " " " " " " alug-announce : The Newsletter of the Anglian Linux User Group Today's Topics: 1. ANNOUNCE: ALUG 2001.4 (MJ Ray) 2. Newsletter mailing list (MJ Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk Cc: lwn(a)lwn.net From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 12 Jun 2001 16:29:56 +0100 Subject: [ALUG-announce] ANNOUNCE: ALUG 2001.4 Announce: ALUG 2001.4 (End Of The Academic Year!) The next ALUG meeting will be at our UEA Norwich venue as a guest of tsw.org.uk (the student web) on Sunday 17th June 2001 2:00pm - 6:00pm. We hope to hold a demonstration of some wireless networking, security attacks (very likely), a discussion of security measures (almost certain), and a practical exercise on configuring printers (quite likely). Further meeting details at http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/meetings/year2/meeting9.html Venue details at http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/venues/uea.html. If you are coming please email me on (alug at towers.org.uk) with details of any kit you are bringing so we can update the web site. Please mail the list if you have any requests for help or would like a demonstration of anything specific and we will try to accommodate if at all possible. tsw will provide tables, chairs and some networking, while drinks and food vending machines are available. There is no entrance charge to this venue, but refreshment facilities other than the above may be limited. It is anticipated that we will move to a pub after the meeting. -- MJR --__--__-- Message: 2 To: alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 12 Jun 2001 20:04:36 +0100 Subject: [ALUG-announce] Newsletter mailing list If you can see this, it means that the alug-announce mailing list is working. My intention is to publish short newsletters of "the best of ALUG" for people who find 500 messages a week too much to handle. There will at most one issue a day, and usually a lot less. It will be sent to the main alug list too, so you don't need to subscribe to both. (Is this a good idea? I think so...) Once again, I need your help: I need people to write short summaries of popular threads and send them to alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk for possible inclusion in the next edition. Anything else you want to write should also be sent there, including short articles of general interest. The web site will be updated to reflect the new list tonight. -- MJR --__--__-- _______________________________________________ alug-announce mailing list alug-announce(a)stu.uea.ac.uk http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug-announce End of alug-announce Digest

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online services in Norwich question
by Joss Winn 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Hello, I will be returning to the UK in six weeks and will begin an MA at UEA in September. I received information about accomodation at the University residences yesterday and am hoping list members in Norwhich can advise me on a couple of things regarding networking and accomodation in the area. The University accomodation doesn't look that attractive after living in my own house for the last few years, although I don't mind the sound of some of the networked rooms available. However it is unlikely I will be offered one. Assuming I will look for shared accomodation or a studio flat, can anybody tell me about the availability of cable or DSL in the area? Am I likely to find it, how much will it cost? It is quite a high priority of mine to be on a 24/7 connection, and would influence my choice of accomodation while in Norwich for the year. I have spent the last three years on a crappy dial-up connection paying way, way too much money for it (over 100 quid a month) and would really like to get the connection I've been dreaming of all this time, once I begin at UEA. If anyone has _any_ advice at all regarding accomodation and computing for a post-grad student, I'd be very grateful. thanks. Looking forward to meeting you all. please cc me if it is not too much trouble. Joss

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RE: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by Quantrill, Simon 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

I agree, however the nearest hub is Lowestoft I know cause I run it!!, but it is at present only connectable at rates of a shared 9600 port, there is a move to go 2 meg in the microwave band and although it is connected to the internet 24/7 I do not allow people through it from the radio to the internet. 1. Cause my ISP dont allow it 2. It would break my licensing conditions 2. Cause i have to pay for the internet connection!! However you do need a license There was a site that were setting up local (non amateur)radio internet connections using wavelan and airconnect stuff not to sure of the web site but that was radio path connections up to about 11mb and it was license free!! so I guess if a site like the UEA were to put up a gateway and people in the area installed the wavelan gear it would work ok!!! Simon Quantrill Principle Infrastructure Engineer Lotus Cars PLC +44(0)1953 608491 -----Original Message----- From: wbh [mailto:W.B.Hill@uea.ac.uk] Sent: 12 June 2001 14:31 To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Adam Bower wrote: > for the bit of string that connects your house to the ISP. Is it possible > to use HAM radio for net connections? there seems to be plenty of things > in the Linux kernel for it. Short answer - you don't want to go there. Long answer. 9600 baud is considered fast. You need a licence. The radio "internet" isn't connected to the real one. You need someone within range who's prepared to accept your traffic, last time I checked (about 3 years) that meant Cambridge, which meant I'd need an antenna the size of a pylon, or to learn morse... (--- ... :-) There was talk of a 1.5Mbit link, but I haven't heard anthing in a while, and that was on one of the microwave bands. Welcome to the twilight zone where valves are the vogue and your circuit looks like it's a particularly tricky plumbing problem. _______________________________________________ alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! ____________________________________________________________________ "This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. This communication may contain material protected by attorney-client privilege. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the IT Call Centre by telephone on 44 (0) 1953 608000." postmaster(a)lotuscars.co.uk http://www.lotuscars.co.uk http://www.lotuseng.com

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Re: [Alug] online services in Norwich question
by brodders＠cwcom.net 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

Hi all, I've been with NTL (initially Bell Cable Media via Mercury, then C&W, now NTL) since mid '97. NTL World does not exist in Norwich, the old Mercury exchange will not support it. I've had the NTL World CD from early last year - but the local exchange has not routing for / does not recognise the NTL World 0800 number. Pressing NTL abount this has repeatedly given "coming in a few months" answer. Last time I asked (c. March '01) I got a story about NTL wondering if they should roll out the existing NTL World on V.90 kit OR jump to all-digital. Latter route is strategic but needs a new exchange = even more money & time. NTL are supplying digital TV here, so it might change. Let's call them now... 5 people later: OK. Broadband replaces NTL World, there are no roll-out dates for the Norwich area for Broadband. The sales drone I spoke to could only parrot that; they knew no more. DHYB Steve >On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Joss Winn wrote: > >> So is this BT deal, just a 56k dialup? Has 128K ISDN taken off in the >> UK? It's all the rage here in Japan. > >I havn't heard of any FRIACO ISP's that allow 128k ISDN? is this now >available?, there are now other FRIACO deals where some ISP's are >allocating a fixed amount of time online for a fixed fee. This is what I >am using at the moment and I don't get kicked after 2 hours (but I havn't >found out what happens if I use more than my allocated time yet). > >If you are in a NTL Cable serviced area and want cable tv and take NTL's >package you should automagically get two telephone lines and free dial-up >with NTL World, this would give you a 2 hour kick off but I do know >someone at work who is using this with automatic recconection for over a >year to get free 24/7 access. I don't know if this applys in Norwich >though as it is an old C&W serviced area, although the Digital tv has just >been launched there which means Cable Modems should not be to far behind. > >Oh yeah and if NTL release Cable modems in Norwich you will probably >find BT will magically offer ADSL about a week after launch, and the reverse >of that statement is also probably true. :) > >hmm, still seems dial-up in the UK isn't cheap, you just pay loads upfront >now for a fixed time online... > >Adam >-- >This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed >Adam > > > > >_______________________________________________ >alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list >Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk >http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug >See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! >

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Sunday
by David Freeman 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

All, If you want any books for the weekend, email me by wednesday lunch time. I will need cash or money transfer or cheque tho. Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] add-on page
by MJ Ray 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

People looking for another web scripted system are solving the wrong problem. Access is perfectly possible, it's just that not enough people are doing it. After the last "pretty web front end" failed, I did what people wanted then and made it XML/XSL. I'll help anyone get started with it (email me!), although you'll hopefully understand it if I (or someone else) checks over people's first page or two to make sure the web site survives. ;-) -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by MJ Ray 12 Jun '01

12 Jun '01

MJ Ray <mjr(a)stats.mth.uea.ac.uk> writes: > Let me know today if possible so I can change the room booking if > necessary, please. Argh, sorry, room not available. 17th it has to be. See some of you there and I'll push out the announcement first thing tomorrow morning. -- MJR

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MS Exchange Server
by govind chandra (JIC) 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

Hello, Does anybody know how to get one's email from a MS Exchange Server in Linux? What I want to know is, if it is possible to query Exchange Server like POP3 or IMAP servers. Email is the only thing that I have to boot into windows for and use outlook. Govind Chandra

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RE: [Alug] add-on page
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

>Eventually I would still like to see a system like PHP Website (see >http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu) as the central engine for the ALUG site as >that would then allow for admins/authors (permissions can be set for >approval/submission access, etc) to make changes to the site without the >need for FTP or shell access - everything will be added/amended through a >MySQL database and PHP code. Just an idea - feel free to bash me about with >a frying pan if you don't like it :) >Regards,Martyn Not knowing anything about this, I can't comment too loudly, but perhaps even if it would be a hassle to begin with it would reduce work for the site manager in the long run....individual folks can be in charge of and update their own stuff. Jenny.

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Re: [Alug] Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

>....and I think that to get new members... Look out. They might ask strings of ridiculous questions. (Speaking of which...) Web page is ready. Having never done one before I shall simply await instruction from above. Jenny.

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Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

Wheels are in motion for the 17th, but people are indicating Father's Day is a bad day for a meeting. Will this seriously hit attendance? Do we want to: 1. Go ahead as planned 2. Postpone to the following Sunday ? Let me know today if possible so I can change the room booking if necessary, please. MJR

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add-on page
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

Hi all, I've just about finished a web page for alug listing sites and books. (I was going to have the How I Did The NIC Thing on there too but not done it yet). I haven't got a domain and recoil at the thought of Freeserve's free space cluttering it up with banners, so is there a way I can plonk it up on the alug site? Re. relative links....(eg the alug logo), will they be in the same directory? Jen.

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Re: [Alug] Vote now! 17th or 24th...
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

1. Go ahead as planned 2. Postpone to the following Sunday Either suits me ok. A shame to break B John's long-standing tradition of attending meetings. Jenny.

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Weekly IRC meeting reminder
by Adam Bower 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

This is the automated ALUG irc meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an irc meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.openprojects.net in the #alug channel, you can take a look at www.openprojects.net to get more info on the openprojects network. Popular irc clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and ircII on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.bitchx.com http://www.xchat.org http://freshmeat.net http://www.epicsol.org/ (for Brett!) Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Exactly. The english language is a self referential incomplete system ( > i.e. recuresion to recursion) and by using a meta language - UML - we > can desribe things without the self referentailism. ...but instead UML is defined in English which is a self-referential... you get the idea ;-) > I think you mean spiral [...] Instead of what? "Waterfall" rings a bell from my Systems Engineering course many years ago. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ANNOUNCE: ALUG 2001.4 (End Of The Academic Year!)
by MJ Ray 11 Jun '01

11 Jun '01

"Mark Wilkinson" <mark(a)wilkinson.uk.com> writes: > I hate to be the one to say this but I think it's worth pointing out that > 17th June is Father's day and some of us may have other commitments that > day, especially those travelling a long distance. Oh well, where were you 10 days ago? Bit late to change now, unless there's an overwhelming outcry. I'll hold the announcement back until tomorrow just in case. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > Anyway, imperative-OO still has "do this, do that" at its core... > Not if used properly. its more on event x do y etc... Still, imperative. [...] > True. I wasn't there so can't comment much. but how was the program > spec defined? I'm not too clear on that (I was just trying to assess technical skills), but copiously specified by recognised experts from partner institutions. ;-) > prototypes? you design it in pseudo code, Yippee, non-testable code! > this then becomes your comments as you write code round them. All > languages(well most) have the same basic principles of sequence > selection and interation. Read Code Complete by Steve Mcconnell. Is it a book, article, kiwi fruit, sth else? You're describing imperative programming again, but that's irrelevant here. -- MJR

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Assumptions and Paradoxes Re: ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > Have to pretty much try this. Having some sort of deposits may be a > > good move, but who holds them? > In a per-to-peer system? good question, in a centralised system? the > librarian. So who is the librarian with lots of space and time for travelling? No-one, I suspect. [assumptions] > So basically you are using one incomplete system for prove another > incomplete system? An assumption is object with no evidence of fact > backing it up which is used to help prove one system. And as such they > are the mother of all f*** ups. No, assumptions are essential to any logic system. You may not like them because they can't be proved, but you can't do anything without them. Did you know that the commonly-taught version of mathematical set theory has assumptions which lead to logical inconsistencies? A good example is Russell's paradox, the set of all sets which do not contain themselves. There was a long effort early last century to define a set theory which was free of inconsistencies. My memory is not perfect, but I don't think that it succeeded. Therefore, I propose that any system will have flaws arising from its assumptions. The best we can hope for is minor flaws, but by making the assumptions relevant, we can get something which serves us well. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff, part 2
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

<skirmish type="horseback" carrying="scythe"> David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > Why not use a sensible system? Why not write the front end in Java and > use the JDBC? <slay with="scythe" reason="playing devil's advocate">David Freeman</slay> <fx type="blood-curdling scream" /> </skirmish> Oh, and now find the system which is running the library in Java with JDBC... > Also don't forget the need to stocktake and do a check on integrity. > Stocktake can be done on the fly, ie when an item goes through the > hands of a trusted party - the item can be "audited". Another table > becons. I imagine the integrity check to er um prove transactions > are ordered OK vs datestamp sequence, If you accept items which have moved successfully recently, you only have to get the original issue codes from the holders of the other books to make sure they still have it and accept responsibility for it. Flag anything that hasn't moved for ages or has moved unsuccessfully for investigation by the admin. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > we think > a has the facilities to do x y and y > b inherites the functionaility from a and adds p q r and s > OO is better for modern software. Some people may, but I see a process as a composition of processes carried out by actors. Imperative-OO is just so much overhead to this viewpoint. Anyway, imperative-OO still has "do this, do that" at its core... > Read UML in a nutshell and get back to me, and also phone the poor sod > and give him the Job, he sounds like he may know what he's talking > about. Formally proving programs, nice :o) Sure, he'd be good for a job, but not a job where we needed someone to design applications to an already-defined specification and deal with a large backlog of data to be processed. Horse for courses ;-) At the very least, he was off-beam with his pitch. > > > > > Good code is code which meets the needs of the application and > > > > > doesn't crash. [...] > > > > Being written is a prerequisite for these. > > > No its not, being written well is the prerequisite. > > How is being written not a prereq for being written well? ;-) > You obviously aren't in the camp of designing bugs out of programs. Yes, but how can you design without prototypes? Show me someone who can make things without ever experimenting and I'll show you some angels on the head of a pin... > I'm no expert in this sort fo stuff, but I do know that the whole > relational Paradigm and the OO paradigm are very closely tide in, ARF! -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Librarian stuff
by MJ Ray 10 Jun '01

10 Jun '01

David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: David, trim your quotes, please. ;-) > Centralisation. As much as I like the idea of the Peer-to-peer > networking technique it, like most ideas, is only applicable to certain > tasks, and I believe this isn't one of those. I think a hybrid of > peer-to-peer and centrailised systems much like napster would be a good > solutions. Well, this has been covered in the earlier messages, but unless we have this p2p scheme, then either books will have to only change hands at our irregularly-spaced meetings when the borrowers are both present or whoever is the librarian will have to travel a lot. > I may also model the relational scheme or I may do it as objects to be > written in java. Oi! Implementation issues! Make your mind up! ;^) [...] > "yes, Joh do you have the book I gave you at the last meet?" > "No I wasn't at the last meet" > "So who got that book then?" This is why the ticket-code system was being mooted. As I understand it, it could work like this: the prospective borrower gets a release code on their request which is also sent to the current borrower. The current borrower checks that the person asking for the book has this release code when handing the book over, then confirms the handover to the library system, once again with the code. > I will have to confiscate your fine adjustment tool at the next meet. > Every engineer knows that a large ajustable spanner works better, after > all it has more uses than just bugdening something :o) Adjustable spanners are crap. They break when you bludgeon things with them. > oh goody an interative development process. Is this sarcasm or not? :-S -- MJR

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