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10369 discussions

External hard drive (temporarily) kills PC?
by Srdjan Todorovic 07 Feb '13

07 Feb '13

Hi all, I just got my brand new Western Digital Elements external hard drive today, and it seems to like killing my PC. I plugged in the power from the supplied power brick, hooked up the USB and BOOM!, usb keyboard and mouse die, as does X, as does whatever music I was playing. I have to press the reset button on the PC. It keeps doing that if the external hard drive is powered up and you are connecting. I've booted up now with the USB connected and then plugging in the power, and seems fine. Can anyone please suggest what's wrong and how to fix it? Thanks, Srdjan

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Re: [ALUG] two weeks or so, and it dies again!
by Peter Alcibiades 06 Feb '13

06 Feb '13

On Tuesday 05 February 2013 08:18:20 nev young wrote: > On 04/02/13 08:05, Peter Alcibiades wrote: > > Can you think of anything else to try? > > > I did have something similar a few years back and it turned out to be > the northbridge* chip overheating. > There was no sensor for that chip but just looking at the board I could > see some discolouration round there and on the reverse of the main board. > > I fitted a small fan to keep it cool and it's been fine ever since > though a little nosier. > > > * or is it southbridge. > Any how it's a chip on the main board with a heat sink stuck to it. > > Nev > > > > Thanks for this, yes,it does seem like a plausible explanation - and I've found a few northbridge coolers on Amazon, including a flower passive one from Zalman, quite well rated, and a wonderful heatpipe one with a fan in it. Quite large, have to check if it will fit. Quiet PC carries this as their sole northbridge cooler. Apparently soutbridge is not a problem as its heat output is very low. So thanks, will have a go. Al

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Re: [ALUG] two weeks or so, and it dies again!
by Peter Alcibiades 06 Feb '13

06 Feb '13

On Wednesday 06 February 2013 09:39:23 you wrote: > On Tuesday 05 February 2013 08:18:20 nev young wrote: > > On 04/02/13 08:05, Peter Alcibiades wrote: > > > Can you think of anything else to try? > > > > > I did have something similar a few years back and it turned out to be > > the northbridge* chip overheating. > > There was no sensor for that chip but just looking at the board I could > > see some discolouration round there and on the reverse of the main board. > > > > I fitted a small fan to keep it cool and it's been fine ever since > > though a little nosier. > > > > > > * or is it southbridge. > > Any how it's a chip on the main board with a heat sink stuck to it. > > > > Nev > > > > > > > > > Thanks for this, yes,it does seem like a plausible explanation - and I've found a few northbridge coolers on Amazon, including a flower passive one from Zalman, quite well rated, and a wonderful heatpipe one with a fan in it. Quite large, have to check if it will fit. Quiet PC carries this as their sole northbridge cooler. > > Apparently soutbridge is not a problem as its heat output is very low. > > So thanks, will have a go. > > Al >

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two weeks or so, and it dies again!
by Peter Alcibiades 05 Feb '13

05 Feb '13

This is weird and part of the ongoing power-down problem. It goes two weeks continuously. Then this morning as I send an email, down it goes. On-off switch has no effect. Change the leads, still no effect. Leave it for a half hour, come back and it starts perfectly. This has to be some sort of heat reset, doesn't it? But the thing I cannot understand is why it should just suddenly happen. gkrell shows cpu temps of 35. The bios at startup showed a bit over 40. I did have a resistor from quiet pc to slow down main fan speed, which has been fine for a couple of years now, but on the offchance I removed that. However, given the latest crash it cannot really be that. Looks like there is an i5 in the future of this case, which is a pain and not cheap either - by the time we get new board, new processor, and a proper shuriken cooler.... Can you think of anything else to try? Al

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Anyone using Pluma?
by Anthony Anson 02 Feb '13

02 Feb '13

Decided to speelchuck a Pluma plain text document and it kept highlighting words like didn't, couldn't, wouldn't and so-on, even though the word was listed in the replacement choices, so I told it to 'replace' out of sheer devilment (possibly). So, it replaced didn't with didn't't and couldn't with couldn't't and wouldn't with wouldn't't. Is this a 'feature' of Pluma, or has my installation got its knickers in a twist? I might just remove Pluma and substitute Gedit... -- Tony

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Collecting SNMP traps and processing them
by Mark Rogers 01 Feb '13

01 Feb '13

Any SNMP experts here? I need to collect SNMP traps, process them (basic string manipulation stuff), append them to a log file and periodically upload that log file to an FTP server. I've never done any work with SNMP on Linux but this seems like it should be trivial. Net-SNMP/snmptrapd looks like a good starting point but I'd appreciate comment from anyone who's used it (or done something similar a different way). (From experience, messages will be received in bursts and I therefore need to be able to batch them up before sending via FTP. The goal will be to have data uploaded via FTP every minute (if there's something to report). I'm looking to replace a Windows system which is massively more complicated than I think it needs to be.) -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0844 251 1450 Registered in England (0456 0902) @ 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG

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Centos - anyone use it?
by James Freer 31 Jan '13

31 Jan '13

Just out of interest i was wondering if many folk on here use Centos. I've decided now to stop using *buntu after 5 years. I've had a few gripes with *buntu in the past and two bugs in xubuntu i found in (im)Precise - time for a change. Besides that i've been wondering why some packages are being left out - apparently dpkg have changed their description fields and if the author doesn't amend they are left out. *buntu seem to be going on a downhill slide in lots of areas and before unity. james

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Bit off topic
by Anthony Anson 31 Jan '13

31 Jan '13

I have several chargers with different rates of delivery: has anyone any idea where I should start looking for data relating to recharging NiCad and Nion batteries? Like: Output of charger Time to charge per mA capacity of each type of battery Or a way to calculate time, allowing for (expected) losses in the process. No, I'mnot being (very) lazy. On this GPRS connection a thorough websearch is time-consuming, and, at £15 per Gig. expensive. -- Tony

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Thunderguts
by Anthony Anson 31 Jan '13

31 Jan '13

Not sure if my reply to Chris Walker was sent - tried twice. Thunderwotsit wouldn't send to the 'Sent' folder, and the message remained on screen. May be due to the Vogonfone connection, which may be dropping out. -- Tony

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2600 meeting at 18:00 on Friday the 1st February.
by Viperfang 29 Jan '13

29 Jan '13

Quick heads up about this months Norwich 2600 meeting, more info at http://www.norwich2600.co.uk

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Re: [ALUG] Testing 5V USB supplies for RPi usage
by Phil Ashby 28 Jan '13

28 Jan '13

On 28/01/13 12:00, Mark Rogers <mark(a)quarella.co.uk> wrote: > On 27 January 2013 01:04, Anthony Anson <tony.anson(a)girolle.co.uk> wrote: >> Have a look at www.maplin.co.uk/ and see if (offers) N66JU; A92JH; A83LA >> float your boat. > > Just to make it clear (because I don't think I did from the outset), > it's not that I'm having a problem sourcing supplies that will keep > the RPi going - I have some that do and some that don't, it's that the > current method of testing (plug it in and see whether it crashes) is a > bit inexact, and the correct method (read the label to see what > current it's rated at) isn't working because the labels can't be > trusted on some of them. > > Also, there's the option of complaining and getting a refund on ones > that are no good, and having a measurement to back me up always helps. > And finally, perhaps more importantly for me, its the opportunity to > learn how to get the measurement. Sounds like a job for a dummy load and a voltmeter? Unless the crash isn't down to sustained low voltage but surge capability, dunno if the Pi has a current surge rating. There is a nice write up here: http://elinux.org/RPi_Hardware#How_Can_I_tell_if_the_power_supply_is_inadeq… Phil.

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Testing 5V USB supplies for RPi usage
by Mark Rogers 28 Jan '13

28 Jan '13

I have several 5V USB supplies, which if the labels on them are to be believed will supply anything from 1 to 2.5A, although I have serious doubts that I can believe the labels. Based on how sowly they charge my phone I think some that are labelled 2.5A are more like 200mA... They're from various sources, which include the likes of eBay. Some will power my RPi, but only if I don't try to plug in a USB device as well. Assuming very little in the way of electrical knowledge (which I guess is obvious as I don't know the answer to my question), what's the "best" way to see what current a power supply can deliver? I have a multimeter, and could doubtless obtain some resisters (or other components) if I need to. I also have a shiny new temperature controlled soldering iron that's never been used if that helps :-) -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0844 251 1450 Registered in England (0456 0902) @ 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG

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Re: [ALUG] Colour Laserjet printer problem
by Barry Samuels 28 Jan '13

28 Jan '13

On 25/01/13 22:13:44, Jenny Hopkins wrote: > On 25 January 2013 16:33, Barry Samuels > <bjsamuels(a)beenthere-donethat.org.uk> wrote: > > I have an HP Colour LaserJet 4500 and recently it displayed a message > > to the effect that the black (K) toner was low. I have configuration > > set to continue until toner runs out but before that happened it > > started to show grey bands vertically down the page. < snip> > I changed my HP printer black cartridge the other day and it still > only printed grey faded stuff, so I used "sudo hp-clean" provided by > hplip package, ran clean twice from the gui that popped up, and all > was well (debian 6). > > Jenny I think that that is applicable only to inkjet printers and mine is a laser but thank you for trying. -- Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain

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udev and hdparm
by Barry Samuels 28 Jan '13

28 Jan '13

I have two sata backup drives which I use for daily rsync backups. As the drive is running for a relatively short time during the night I don't want it rotating for the rest of the time. hdparm -S 12 /dev/sdb will set the spindown to 1 minute after the last use and that works from the command line. However I would like the command to be automatically given when the drive is inserted and reading on the Internet suggests using UDEV. I've put this in a .rules file: # Set spindown time for backup drive when inserted. KERNEL=="sdb", RUN+="/sbin/hdparm -S 12 /dev/sdb" But that doesn't work i.e. nothing happens. When I first tried I put only one = after KERNEL and UDEV complained so I know it is being 'seen' and the drive is always 'sdb'. Should it work? -- Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain

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Colour Laserjet printer problem
by Barry Samuels 25 Jan '13

25 Jan '13

I have an HP Colour LaserJet 4500 and recently it displayed a message to the effect that the black (K) toner was low. I have configuration set to continue until toner runs out but before that happened it started to show grey bands vertically down the page. I decided to change the toner in the hope that it might cure the problem but it didn't. I can see rings of toner around the imaging drum if I take it out. It does seem to be picking up surplus toner but I've no idea where from. At present I have: Transfer Kit showing 96% life left Fuser Kit showing 91% life left Drum Kit 68% lif left Any suggestions would be appreciated. If you suggest cleaning something would you please explain where to find it because I probably won't know. -- Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain

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MySQL select into
by Mark Rogers 22 Jan '13

22 Jan '13

Any MySQL gurus here? I have a table: `item_uid` INT (Primary key) `cat_uid` INT <several other fields> What I want to do is take all records where cat_uid=10, and insert them back into the table with cat_uid=11 (in other words duplicating "category 10" as "category 11". What I had was: CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE tmp SELECT * FROM myTable WHERE cat_uid=10; UPDATE tmp SET cat_uid=11; INSERT INTO myTable SELECT * FROM tmp; This used to work when I didn't have the primary key `uid`, but now this just attempts to insert duplicates for the uid field and fails. The following works instead: CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE tmp SELECT * FROM myTable WHERE cat_uid=10; ALTER TABLE tmp CHANGE uid uid INT(11) NULL DEFAULT NULL; UPDATE tmp SET uid=NULL, cat_uid=11; INSERT INTO myTable SELECT * FROM tmp; In other words, alter the tmp table structure to allow the uid field to be NULL, and as part of my update set all the uid's to NULL, so that the final insert tries to insert NULL for uid which causes MySQL to insert the next auto-increment value instead. But this seems very convoluted, is there a "correct" (or just "better") way? -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0844 251 1450 Registered in England (0456 0902) @ 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG

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Summat up with Mint - or Mozilla
by Anthony Anson 21 Jan '13

21 Jan '13

Using the most recent Thunderbird, ditto Firefox, the system freezes frequently when I have T/bird and F/fox running at the same time. F'rinstance today, I left T/bird running while I went to the BBC website. There I filled in an online comment and then tried to close Firefox, which declined to play nicely, and none of the usual rollover dialogue boxes on Mint functions worked - connection speed, state of battery etc just sat there glumly ignoring the mouse pointer. File and Quit on the function bar closed Firefox, but nothing would shift Thunderbird. Three-fingered salute deleted the last two e-mailsin my inbox... Had to power-down to regain control, but the e-mails seem to have vanished entirely. (Not in trash, nor in any other folder.) Anyone any bright ideas? (Apart from not running Firefox and Thunderbird at the same time...) -- Tony

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?Ubuntu 12.10 Boot Issues
by steve-ALUG＠hst.me.uk 21 Jan '13

21 Jan '13

Hi all, I was on an old version of Ubuntu, started getting messages about it not being supported any more and so decided to update. I decided to install the lubuntu-desktop package, then do updates until I was up-to-date. So now, I'm up to Lubuntu 12.10. When I booted it, it hang big-time before getting into the GUI. I Hard-booted and selected a different kernel, and it booted fine. After experimentation it seems that booting into the kernel described as "Ubuntu 12.10, kernel 3.5.0-10-generic" causes the machine to hang before getting into the GUI. I've just tried making LUbuntu and XUbuntu 12.10 CDs and booting from them, but both of them hang, I presume when trying to load the Kernel. Trying to boot via the "kernel 3.5.0-10-generic recovery mode" boot menu option also hangs. I've not had a problem like this before. Does anyone have any advice on diagnosing what's causing this hang? Any logs to examine would have to survive a hard-reboot, or are there any debug options I can put on the grub boot line. Or am I doomed, or have to wait for a new kernel to come out, or keep using the old one. Any advice or comments would be appreciated. I haven't googled much as I don't quite know what to search for (you may tell me I'm a numpty for this!) Hardware is a Dell Lattitude D410. Cheers Steve

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[ALUG Announce] 3rd Monday Monthly Ipswich Social Meeting : The Mulberry Tree
by samwise 21 Jan '13

21 Jan '13

ALUG Announce Please send announcements to Announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk Unsub, change settings via http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce ----- The monthly "Third Monday" ALUG Ipswich Social Meeting is back tonight, 21st January, at 20:00: The Mulberry Tree 5 Woodbridge Road IPSWICH IP4 2EA Tel: 01473 225776 Map/Directions URI: http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=IP4+2EA WWW: https://www.facebook.com/MULBERRYHOSPITALITY The Mulberry Tree, previously known as The Milestone Beer House, is a grade 2 listed building in the centre of Ipswich. It is located at the intersection between Woodbridge Road and the A1156, across the road from the old Odeon cinema and not far from the Regent Theatre. It re-opened on Thursday March 29th 2012 after a major refurbishment, under its original name of The Mulberry House and has already begun to regain a good reputation for its selection of beers and ales. It has a sizeable car park to the rear of the building. All are welcome, novices and experienced users. Feel free to ask for further information on the Main ALUG mailing list. I'm back home and will be out to play today, if anyone wants to join me. :) Cheers, Peter. ----- Send discussion replies to main(a)lists.alug.org.uk (Reply-To set) Unsub, change settings via http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce

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Help with hardware
by Peter Alcibiades 20 Jan '13

20 Jan '13

Any ideas what this might be? I was having a crash with instant power down. So I replaced the PSU with a Xilence, and for a while all seemed well. Then it happened again. Restarted. But to restart, I had to actually unplug the power cable. Only then did the power switch work. All carried along fine for a week or so - I never turn it off, and ir ran just fine. Then just now, it happens again! In the meantime afflicted by a sudden rush of nerves I have made a backup using clonezilla so its not going to be the end of the world if it goes south. What happens is, try to use the power switch and nothing whatever happens. Then I connected up to a different power cable and a different socket, and it goes on. The Gigabyte board asks me to pick the last good boot, so I do. Then it powers down and restarts, and goes into the usual Debian login, after which it runs the disk diagnostic and repairs itself, and now its running just fine again. What on earth could it be and what should I do? See what is weird is that I am tempted to think maybe its the extension block, but the screen runs off that, and that is just fine. It seems reasonable to change out the extension block because they are not expensive. But I can't quite see how that could do it. There is no doubt that last time it was the psu. It was totally dead, and replacing that first with the evo and then with the xilence, it did actually bring it all back to life. But this time its clearly not the psu, or could it be? Al

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A conundrum to boot!
by Barry Samuels 19 Jan '13

19 Jan '13

We have a spare computer laying around the place, as you do, which serves as a quick substitute if either of our main computers goes wrong. It's just a case of taking the disc drive out of the faulty computer and putting it in the spare and off we go again. The mainboard in the spare went wrong a while ago and I managed to get a free replacement from my brother in the form of a discarded mainboard. This mainboard is an Intel DP965LT which has a respectable 2.7 GHz Core2 Duo CPU and 8 GBs of RAM. The PSU in my main (normal) computer exploded recently quite spectacularly with a flash, bang and a puff of smoke so I thought I would swap the drive into the spare computer while I sorted things out. It was then that I discovered that although the spare board had SATA connections it wouldn't boot a SATA drive. With just the SATA drive connected I got a "No bootable drives" message. It will, however, boot an IDE drive. I do have a small IDE drive and I was wondering if it were possible to write a Lilo boot sector on that drive in order to start the Linux system on the SATA drive. But with the two drives connected the IDE drive comes up as sda and the SATA drive as sdb and, of course, the system on the SATA drive is configured to use sda. I don't want to change the configuration on the SATA drive so is there a way round this apart from trying to cadge another mainboard from somewhere? -- Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain

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zhead/ztail
by Mark Rogers 18 Jan '13

18 Jan '13

I want to display the first few line of each of a batch of log files, some of which are gzipped. Normally I'd use zcat in place of cat, zgrep in place of grep, etc, to work with a mixture of compressed and uncompressed files. But zhead and ztail don't exist. What's the best way to achieve this: zhead -n1 /var/log/syslog* (show the first line of each syslog* file)? All the thoughts I had got increasingly convoluted. Obviously stuff like: zcat /var/log/syslog* | head -n1 .. doesn't achieve what I want... -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0844 251 1450 Registered in England (0456 0902) 21 Drakes Mews, Milton Keynes, MK8 0ER

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Re: [ALUG] Help with hardware
by Peter Alcibiades 16 Jan '13

16 Jan '13

Yes, I did check out the loading on the various calculators I found - in response to the suggestions - and there seems to be plenty of margin. More than the calculators suggest. Its 250W, and its only a main board, one hard drive and i3. No graphics card. The earlier psu that seems to have burned out was 300W. I'm feeling doubtful that an inadequate psu can be the cause. Didn't note exactly what the restart message was. Something about going back to the last good configuration. No, I don't think there are two bios files installed. But there were a bunch of choices which I don't exactly remember. What I did so far was to take the supply off the surge protected strip and connect it directly to the mains and everything is running fine now. One thing that makes me suspect the psu is that the crash happened when watching youtube - which presumably is more processor intensive than just web or word processing. Anyway, I ordered a new extension strip, this one brand named so maybe it will be better, and we will see. I truly hate intermittent faults! Don't we all? Al On Tuesday 15 January 2013 08:01:00 Wayne Stallwood wrote: > As an educated guess I'd say either there has been a power > spike/overload or PSU failure that puts it into protection mode or there > is something going on with your mainboard. > > When you say "The Gigabyte board asks me to pick the last good boot" > what exactly is the message ? Is it falling back to a redundant BIOS image ? > > Is the PSU adequately sized for the machine..I know we had this > conversation late last year on the list. But specifically if you use a > PSU calculator for your combination of hardware components does the > current draw on the 12v rails come in at way under whatever it says for > that rail on the PSU spec. > > If you go by wattage alone you don't know if the distribution of > capacity is sufficient across the rails for your hardware. You often > can't for example draw the total rated capacity from one rail. Sometimes > despite the overall rating appearing to be sufficient the 12V rail can > be undersized, this is particularly true on PSU's designed for older > hardware. > > > > > > >

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Help, graphics broken!
by Mark Rogers 16 Jan '13

16 Jan '13

Kubuntu 12.10 on a new PC, has been working fine. Just had a power cut, and on restarting I see the BIOS on my screen then it goes grey and stays that way. I can tell it's booting up (combination of HDD lights etc, and the fact that if I wait long enough I can SSH in to it). But nothing on the screen. It's possible, but no means certain, that I had does some apt-get upgrade's (or dist-upgrade's) prior to the power cut that have now come into effect, How do I debug this to get my desktop back (by which I mean visible to me - I'm sure it's there!)? In case it helps: $ lspci | grep VGA 00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI BeaverCreek [Radeon HD 6530D] It's just a default install, no graphics tweaking (I haven't even installed proprietary drivers). Monitor is Edge EF220A (1920 x 1080). Mark -- Mark Rogers // More Solutions Ltd (Peterborough Office) // 0844 251 1450 Registered in England (0456 0902) @ 13 Clarke Rd, Milton Keynes, MK1 1LG

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Re: [ALUG] Leetkey
by Anthony Anson 14 Jan '13

14 Jan '13

On 14/01/13 17:39, Anthony Anson wrote: > On 13/01/13 18:07, steve-ALUG(a)hst.me.uk wrote: >> On 13/01/13 12:58, Anthony Anson wrote: >>> On 13/01/13 01:04, steve-ALUG(a)hst.me.uk wrote: >>>> On 12/01/13 12:07, Anthony Anson wrote: >>>> [SNIP] >>>>> I must say I dislike the current offering of Thunderbird. >>>>> >>>> Well I did too, until I found the various extensions and >>>> customisationshe >>>> that made it look, more or less, like it used to look like. What don't >>>> you like? >>> >>> How long have I got? I haven't (yet?) found a way to close mail on the >>> screen without clicking 'inbox'; > >> Not quite sure what you mean. > > Well, the old Thunderbird on the Eee, and Eee bah gum, it were old... > had a close box on the pane - the only 'close' box closes Thunderbird. > > Shall play with dragging functions about as you suggest - there's > already a backward and a forward arrow - ta. > >>> the only way to date that I've found to >>> go on to the next message is to remember to position the cursor in the >>> right area of the pane and use the 'down' key; > >> You can read through emails in the same style as a newsgroup reader >> program, by pressing space. Space shows you a pageful of an email at a >> time. When it gets to the end of the email, it then moves on to the >> next. >> Also, you can right click on the toolbar at the top of the screen (and >> possibly the one on top of the email), and add a Next and Previous >> button. This allows you to scroll through your emails by clicking on >> them. There's a bunch of shortcuts too - see: >> >> https://support.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/kb/keyboard-shortcuts#w_moving-a… >> >> >> >> Loads of useful stuff on that page - I've just learnt some stuff! :-) > > I shall look at it next time I can use wifi >> >>> I haven't yet found a way >>> to turn off red worms - er - spellcheck-as-you-trype, and lots more. >> >> Edit/Preferences >> Composition icon >> Spelling Tab >> Tick or untick as you see fit. >>> >>> Mind you, for reasons of my ISP's change of security and methods of >>> connecting, I haven't been able to use POP3 between getting this >>> new(ish) box before Christmas and last week, so I wasn't using the >>> program, and, I haven't tried *really* hard. >>> >>> I was considering overwriting Thunderguts on this box with the old >>> version I had been using on the Eee, but now the new one can get into >>> the mail server I'm loath to poke it with sharp sticks. >> >> as to why you're getting sent email in your inbox, well that's not a >> problem I'm getting. Is something somewhere BCCing your email back to >> you? Could it be a server/ISP issue? Does it happen when you send >> email by other means? > > I don't send email by any other means. > >> Don't get me wrong - I think Thunderbird is heading the wrong way. I've >> just installed it for the other half, and the menu bar was hidden and I >> was presented with all sorts of horrible menus and stuff, and by >> default, it looks horrible, but it is possible to wrangle it back to >> working OK with judicious use of extensions and customising. I've >> managed it! > > Thanks - working my way through all this. Worming powder applied. I had > already adjusted the menu bar, but became pi^h^h^somewhat incensed by > the unintuitive nature of the controls - it's rather like learning to > fly an airliner which is coming in to land without the help of George. > -- Tony

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