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Re: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by MJ Ray 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

Laurie wrote: > You may (perhaps fairly) think it's a bit harsh, but this is at least > the third time he's done this, and I've asked him to stop twice (which > he both failed to acknowledge, and ignored). Especially given its > precedents, it *is* spam, however relevant it may be to any particular > reader. Laurie, this email was more of a grey area than previous messages, not being a "we've got this job" but a "where should we advertise". Of course, you could still count it as sneaky advertising, as most of the email is occupied by their contact details in a non-signature footer, but it can't really be classed as "spam"/UCE. However, what we saw was you stomping in there with the big boots on and threatening them on-list for what appeared an innocent message. No explanation of why you classed it as spam was given. Please, everyone, if you suspect something of being spam, please contact the three of us at main-admin(a)lists.alug.org.uk and *we'll* get the big boots on. If you dislike our decision, *then* you can post to the list bitching about our decision and we'll back down if your opinion is the majority one. I'm inclined to accept job adverts etc into announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk, mainly through the absence of any other material. Would people agree to that, as long as tough guidelines (eg no sigs, under a certain length, once per issue max) were set? > Further, Best International are members of ATSCO, and as any > member of the PCG knows, not only supporters of IR35, but as members > of ATSCO, they are acting in the worst interests of contractors (qv. > statements from the ATSCO chairman passim). A cruise through the > private fora in the PCG will show that Best are in fact misnamed... > Consequently, I am unable to find any room for compromise. Now this *is* interesting. I also dislike ATSCO because of their handling of this (even if I think that I broadly agree with the spirit (but not the letter) of IR35) and I think the only honourable thing for any member to do is to either resign or go on record with an open letter objecting to their handling of the affair. -- MJR Anglian LUG http://www.alug.org.uk/ No ePatents http://petition.eurolinux.org/ FSF Europe http://www.fsfeurope.org/

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Re: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by Adam Bower 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

>1. All adverts should go to announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk, subject to some >submission criteria: > - plain text only > - signature <4 lines > - strongly encouraged to put supporting material at a URL > - max one per batch sounds good to me, what are other peoples thoughts on adverts on Alug?? the current state of play is in the FAQ I felt when writing it there was a fair balance, of course if it is abused then people would loose posting rights. >2. No adverts are permitted on main@, as they'll get the announce batches >anyway. No adverts on social@, as at present. also sounds good. >3. Complaints about ads to <listname>-admin@ in the first instance. I'm >sure Martyn has suitably big boots if required. Also correct, all complaints should go to the list admins rather than private mail as I have heard that people have flamed others in private for things that are covered in the FAQ. >If there are no objections in a day or two, can the FAQ be updated (Adam, >do >you need me to do the actual CVS changes... email me if so) and I'll >implement the changed policy, updating various messages to reflect it. Ermmm, looks like I will need someone to do the FAQ update for me as I don't have CVS checkout capabilities, as I still don't have a permanent home address or net connection and I can only use a http proxy to get to the outside world at the moment (hence snotmail, and unfortunatly I also need a .net login for M$ support now so at times like this....)anyhow I hope to sort out a permanent place to live soon and will soon have a linux NAT firewall in place at work so should be able to "do" internet things soon, unless I find somewhere else to get proper net access from in the next couple of days. Adam Bower _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by MJ Ray 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

AJS proposed: > Either way. Job postings to ALUG lists: good. Massive commercial blurb in > said postings: bad. This thread: should be dead ;-) I propose: 1. All adverts should go to announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk, subject to some submission criteria: - plain text only - signature <4 lines - strongly encouraged to put supporting material at a URL - max one per batch 2. No adverts are permitted on main@, as they'll get the announce batches anyway. No adverts on social@, as at present. 3. Complaints about ads to <listname>-admin@ in the first instance. I'm sure Martyn has suitably big boots if required. If there are no objections in a day or two, can the FAQ be updated (Adam, do you need me to do the actual CVS changes... email me if so) and I'll implement the changed policy, updating various messages to reflect it. -- MJR

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RE: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by Gavin Smith 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

It seems as though my messages aren't getting through so I'll try again. In defence of the comments about Best. Yes we are members of ATSCO (as are agencies that total about 45% of the total UK marketplace) but we don't support IR35 in any way. In fact we are one of only a handful of companies that are able to provide a project based contract that as far it can be is "IR35 proof". It amazes me that the government seem to have managed to get contractors and agents fighting each other when we should be working together. Gavin > -----Original Message----- > From: MJ Ray [SMTP:markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk] > Sent: 28 November 2001 11:15 > To: laurie(a)brownowl.com > Cc: Gavin Smith; ALUG List > Subject: Re: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills > > Laurie wrote: > > You may (perhaps fairly) think it's a bit harsh, but this is at least > > the third time he's done this, and I've asked him to stop twice (which > > he both failed to acknowledge, and ignored). Especially given its > > precedents, it *is* spam, however relevant it may be to any particular > > reader. > > Laurie, this email was more of a grey area than previous messages, not > being > a "we've got this job" but a "where should we advertise". Of course, you > could still count it as sneaky advertising, as most of the email is > occupied > by their contact details in a non-signature footer, but it can't really be > classed as "spam"/UCE. However, what we saw was you stomping in there > with > the big boots on and threatening them on-list for what appeared an > innocent > message. No explanation of why you classed it as spam was given. > > Please, everyone, if you suspect something of being spam, please contact > the > three of us at main-admin(a)lists.alug.org.uk and *we'll* get the big boots > on. If you dislike our decision, *then* you can post to the list bitching > about our decision and we'll back down if your opinion is the majority > one. > > I'm inclined to accept job adverts etc into announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk, > mainly through the absence of any other material. Would people agree to > that, as long as tough guidelines (eg no sigs, under a certain length, > once > per issue max) were set? > > > Further, Best International are members of ATSCO, and as any > > member of the PCG knows, not only supporters of IR35, but as members > > of ATSCO, they are acting in the worst interests of contractors (qv. > > statements from the ATSCO chairman passim). A cruise through the > > private fora in the PCG will show that Best are in fact misnamed... > > Consequently, I am unable to find any room for compromise. > > Now this *is* interesting. I also dislike ATSCO because of their handling > of this (even if I think that I broadly agree with the spirit (but not the > letter) of IR35) and I think the only honourable thing for any member to > do > is to either resign or go on record with an open letter objecting to their > handling of the affair. > -- > MJR > Anglian LUG http://www.alug.org.uk/ > No ePatents http://petition.eurolinux.org/ > FSF Europe http://www.fsfeurope.org/ **************************************************************************************** Official winners of the UK IT Recruitment Service of the Year Computing Awards for Excellence 2000 Official winners of the Network Recruitment Consultancy of the Year Networking Industry Awards 2001 Best International Group Plc Registered in England No. 3246014 London (Head Office) +44 (0)20 7300 9000 Bristol +44 (0)117 945 9000 Birmingham +44 (0)121 335 9000 Manchester +44 (0)161 942 9000 Scotland +44 (0)131 524 9000 This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any representations (contractual or otherwise), views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Best International Group, or any of its group companies. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ****************************************************************************************

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RE: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by Gavin Smith 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

> <snip> >> A cruise through the >> > private fora in the PCG will show that Best are in fact misnamed... >> > Consequently, I am unable to find any room for compromise. > </snip> Apologies for the .sig, it gets attached somewhere down the line (and fortunately isn't there if I reply to someone) and I keep forgetting about it. Interestingly CF are also a member of ATSCO. Try http://www.pcgroup.org.uk for the website. I'm always interested to hear what people think of agencies, just please try to keep the four letter words out of it. What is the general concensus of opinion? Anyone have any good experiences? Unforutnately it's usually the vocal minority who post negative comments (you need to bear in mind that we have 1000+ contractors working through us). Gavin **************************************************************************************** Official winners of the UK IT Recruitment Service of the Year Computing Awards for Excellence 2000 Official winners of the Network Recruitment Consultancy of the Year Networking Industry Awards 2001 Best International Group Plc Registered in England No. 3246014 London (Head Office) +44 (0)20 7300 9000 Bristol +44 (0)117 945 9000 Birmingham +44 (0)121 335 9000 Manchester +44 (0)161 942 9000 Scotland +44 (0)131 524 9000 This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any representations (contractual or otherwise), views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Best International Group, or any of its group companies. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ****************************************************************************************

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wu-ftpd security fix
by James 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

Another wu-ftpd overflow security fix! Advisory is dated 20th Nov, mirror filedates are 26th http://www.redhat.com/support/errata/RHSA-2001-157.html Probably a good idea to let people know, as it _is_ on update mirrors. I suppose some folk may still be using wu-ftpd No RHSA email, as per usual. LWN haven't caught on yet. Didn't spot this until I did a routine lookup this morning. --James

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More ALUG server maintenance!
by Martyn Drake 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

Hi folks, Just a brief note to say that all ALUG mailing lists will be unavailable between 11am and 12pm on Monday 3rd of December to perform yet another upgrade of Mailman. This will take us from 2.0.7 to 2.0.8 and fix a few more security holes as well as fixing a few bugs. Regards, Martyn

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Re: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by Adam Bower 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

>I need to recruit software engineers with Linux skills for a client in East >Anglia. > >I've tried all the more obvious solutions, jobserve, jobsite etc. > >Where would you go to look for a new job (any suggestions greatfully >received). Argghhh, where were you just over a month ago?? there was at least 3 of us in East Anglia looking for jobs and we all had linux skills!! anyhow we now all have positions but I mainly sent my CV out via jobserve, jobsite, gis-a-job and a few others but the responses from agencys was not great and they *always* promised to call back but it was not unusual to hear nothing for days. I also checked newspapers and registered with a few agencys directly. It seems rather interesting then that agencys are not having much success with the websites along with the candidates though... I don't know of a better system though, any ideas anyone?? Adam Bower _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Re: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by Adam Bower 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

>I've asked you nicely, twice, but now I'm cross. > >Please stop spamming this list or I'll escalate it to your ISP. Demon >take a very dim view of spamming... Well Laurie if you had taken the time to look at FAQ which is at http://www.alug.org.uk/articles/2001a/alugfaq.html and under the section headed "Is advertising permitted on the list?" you will see that Gavin is fine and within what is allowed. Also I would like to point out that before Gavins first post to the list he emailed me to make sure it was ok and I told him it was only if he kept within the guidelines which he has done. Adam Bower (apologies for using snotmail btw, but i have legitmate reasons....) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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RE: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills
by Gavin Smith 28 Nov '01

28 Nov '01

This is the last time I will post. I'm not interested in getting into any sort of slanging match so I apoligise for the overly long signature in my last email. I shan't be posting again. The first time I posted I actually asked whether it was OK to do so. The answer was yes. The second time I posted was to correct the first (I have posted a non- In defence of your comments about Best. Yes we are members of ATSCO (as are a number of other agencies) but we don't support IR35 in any way. In fact we are one of only a handful of companies that are able to provide a project based contract that as far it can be is "IR35 proof". It amazes me that the government seem to have managed to get contractors and agents fighting each other when we should be fighting them. I'm sure there are people who are not happy with the service we have provided them, equally I can provide you with testimonials of people who are. We could probably argue these points ad nauseum. That's enough from me. Gavin > -----Original Message----- > From: Laurie Brown [SMTP:laurie@brownowl.com] > Sent: 28 November 2001 09:18 > To: MJ Ray > Cc: Gavin Smith; ALUG List > Subject: Re: [Alug] How to find people with Linux skills > > MJ Ray wrote: > > > Laurie Brown wrote: > > > >>Gavin Smith wrote: > >> > >>>Where would you go to look for a new job (any suggestions greatfully > >>>received). > >>> > >>I've asked you nicely, twice, but now I'm cross. > >>Please stop spamming this list or I'll escalate it to your ISP. Demon > >>take a very dim view of spamming... > >> > > > > Laurie, I think that's a bit harsh. This time he was only asking for > where > > he should advertise, really. I don't have a problem with that and, > > personally, I'd be quite interested to know how people are getting jobs > > right now. Are recruitment agencies still worthwhile? > > > > However, what I do have a problem with is that *huge* signature which > breaks > > all known conventions, obeys no known standards and has no legal effect > > whatsoever. Gavin, if you post again, please do it without the sig. > > You may (perhaps fairly) think it's a bit harsh, but this is at least > the third time he's done this, and I've asked him to stop twice (which > he both failed to acknowledge, and ignored). Especially given its > precedents, it *is* spam, however relevant it may be to any particular > reader. Further, Best International are members of ATSCO, and as any > member of the PCG knows, not only supporters of IR35, but as members > of ATSCO, they are acting in the worst interests of contractors (qv. > statements from the ATSCO chairman passim). A cruise through the > private fora in the PCG will show that Best are in fact misnamed... > Consequently, I am unable to find any room for compromise. > > Of course, I'll go with the flow if my views are held to be wide of > the majority, and quietly fume. > > Cheers, Laurie. > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Laurie Brown > laurie(a)brownowl.com > PGP key at http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- **************************************************************************************** Official winners of the UK IT Recruitment Service of the Year Computing Awards for Excellence 2000 Official winners of the Network Recruitment Consultancy of the Year Networking Industry Awards 2001 Best International Group Plc Registered in England No. 3246014 London (Head Office) +44 (0)20 7300 9000 Bristol +44 (0)117 945 9000 Birmingham +44 (0)121 335 9000 Manchester +44 (0)161 942 9000 Scotland +44 (0)131 524 9000 This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any representations (contractual or otherwise), views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Best International Group, or any of its group companies. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ****************************************************************************************

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