On 3/11/2004, "Brett Parker" iDunno@sommitrealweird.co.uk wrote:
On Wed, Nov 03, 2004 at 03:33:53PM +0000, Matt Parker wrote:
It's language syntax is bitty, and if you want a portable, interpreted language (which is basically all Java is, afterall)
As soon as you mention the word "interpreted" you are showing your ignorance. Java is NOT an interpreted language.
Right, you need a run time for it to be of any use what so ever, right? In this case, the "interpreter" is a virtual machine, executing byte code... Or has Java changed significantly in the last 3 minutes?
Like I said, you really need to read up on the subject before spouting off inflammatory, but false, statements. This is how it works:-
1) You compile your source code into byte-code. 2) The JVM loads your byte-code at start up 3) The "Just-In-Time" Compiler compiles your byte-code to native code on the fly and optimises it on each iteration 4) On tight loops you therefore can end up with more optimised native code than something like GCC can produce
The only thing is that this process happens everytime you re-start the JVM, but then if you're running it on a server (where I believe Java should only really live - it's not useful for desktop apps really) you don't care about that because you never restart it.
And saying you'd use ANYTHING other than Java in, presumably, all cases demonstrates your inability to choose the right tool objectively.
There was a time when I thought Java was worthwhile, since then I've grown the fuck up and pick languages that work, without having to munge serious amounts of crap.
Come on, you need to be more intelligent in your argument. You're coming over like a troll.
I have used many languages in my time, including Java, and some I liked and some I hated. For the record Perl is something I never got on with, for example, but thats another flame-war. But the point is I used them all when the situation required the best language for the problem.
I have used Java, I have written backend server systems in Java for a russian lexical database, I have used it a fair amount. I wouldn't say that it's been the right tool for the job in any of the situations I've used it or seen it used though.
You'r obviously not using it correctly. If you look on a site like JobServe you'll see that Java for server-side processing is one of the (if not the most) common languages. All those people can't be wrong.
In the case of Java, it wins hands down on anything to do with the Internet that is more involved than a few scripted pages, and it wins hands down in terms of character encodings and language conversion. It has many drawbacks, including some of its API, though version 5.0 (or 1.5 whatever you want to call it) has improved the language significantly IMO.
Exactly how do you reason this? If you're thinking "Classes, OO" etc, then sorry, but perl and python both do this. python stores strings as utf-8 by default and can encode and decode between character sets. It has the most structured API for use on the Internet *right now*, and, best of all, it's runtime isn't *STUPIDLY* large.
When gcj has finally got all the API of the bloaty mess that is Java, and we can finally use Java on things that Sun haven't bothered with, then I might, just might, give it another shot. Without a Free implementation, a programming language is restrictive, and, in many cases, useless.
Now, exactly *what* are you arguing for in the case of Java? That it's always the right tool in the box? well, sorry, but you are very mistaken. In my experience Java's disadvantages out weigh what few advantages it has, especially from a system administration point of view.
Java's API has all kinds of standard things to make cross language/country code mush easier IMO. Such as pre-defined currency, date, time, character set, time-zone, etc etc conversions that seamlessly interact.
As for what Sun's supported platforms - there are many JVM implementations out there, a couple of note being IBM's and BEA's.
I don't see why you're getting so angry about this anyway. I only suggested that if MJR is having a problem with Unicode character encoding that he give Java a look. You'd think the way you're going on that I said something horrible about his parentage.
Matt