On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:04 PM, MJ Ray mjr@phonecoop.coop wrote:
Marcus Harris wrote:
[quoting me, but dishonourably removing the attribution]
Ah yes, sorry about that!
Flash is pain and should hopefully go the way of the dodo very soon, if html5 <video> with open formats takes off. BBC are being nudged to use <video> more (I think it's already available on iPlayer for Apple - and a BBC news site redesign is coming soon) and it can't happen soon enough.
[...]
Web functionality that otherwise would require some other client software than the browser - lots of video, access to webcams and stuff is only really available to users on GNU/Linux at this point because we have a Flash player that works, [...]
Most GNU/Linux *platforms* don't have a Flash player that works. Take the i386/ia64 blinkers off and show some solidarity with the
I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I think (hope) we're all aware that Flash isn't genuinely cross-platform, and that it has pitfalls like not being Free software that make it difficult for people to remedy that (although again, that isn't entirely impossible, look at Gnash).
I'm a bit wary of unscrupulous pragmatism, and I'm not *happy* that many people's Linux has been tainted with nasty drivers, and their systems play host to GPL-violating software, software that imposes onerous license conditions and so on, because I think we risk making a joke of anything more sophisticated than a BSD-like license.
Still, nor do I think we should avoid fun until it's fun that has a proper level of open source rectitude - I think that carries the risk of damaging both the open source movement and the Free software movement. If end users begin to see "Stop having fun" as a strapline of Free software, that will be a lot more impactful to them than telling them about how cool Free software is, and that's what they'll remember.
That said, the reality is that that stuff can be replaced (nouveau, gnash, HTML5 etc.) - and in the meantime it provides GNU/Linux with a foot in the door that it would not otherwise have - it might be slightly more interesting for us if even 100 extra developers from elsewhere are using the system day-to-day when they are needed.
full range of systems which would be used if it was a fair fight.
It's not a fair fight because there isn't a viable and widely adopted open source alternative to Flash. for viewers, it is Flash Player, or an open source alternative Flash client, or nothing, really.
Whilst it might be nice to see a future where everyone's browser is playing them ogg audio/video, isn't the reality likely to be some thin wrappers for Apple or Microsoft's formats and DRM and so on?
I don't think that's likely, but how would that be much worse than now? Isn't Flash just a thin wrapper for a proprietary format and DRM and so on?
Well if it does go that way, one way it will be worse is that while Adobe make some effort (however derisory you might consider that) to support some Linux desktops with freely available and in every sense "legal" means of obtaining the content that actually works, and there are open source projects to obtain/decode it, Apple or Microsoft will probably fail to support it/legally proscribe it/actively break interoperability/ship DRM in the OS and rely on it/throttle distribution channels.
I still think <video> and good browser support can't happen too soon.
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I agree, if we're talking about open formats and browser support, I think really though we'll get a boring alias for object/embed with all of the same issues.
In this sense Adobe (like nvidia, and id, and so on) has done something to support and foster Linux usage. It has taken them a little time and work and therefore cost them some money.
And so they must think it will make them more money, because Adobe is a private-sector company whose executives are required to maximise shareholder return. They can't develop stuff purely for the sake of justice, equality and the good of humanity! They can do it if they believe taking the edge off Linux-related demand (by supporting some of the most common types) reduces the risk of a Flash-killer being developed by smart Linux hackers and eating their lunch.
Good.
Yes, it's evil and proprietary and stuff, but it works for Linux users through conscious effort - and in the absence of a 1) viable and 2) widely adopted open source alternative. [...]
It works for some users, but it looks like a viable and widely-adopted alternative may be coming at last.
If that happens, I will be as happy as the rest of us. Hope springs eternal