On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:04:14 +0000 Tim Green <timothy.j.green@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:38:09 +0100, Wayne Stallwood <aluglist@digimatic.plus.com> wrote:

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On Thursday 04 November 2004 8:57 am, tom potts wrote:

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Anyone know where I might be able to purchase a new laptop/notebook with Linux installed so M$ get none of my money? Preferably from this little backwater of a country but EU would do at a push Tom

This is why nobody should ever buy boxed Microsoft Operating Systems, they are worthless because it's almost impossible to buy a "clean" computer to install them on. Case in point, I wanted a new laptop earlier in the year settled on a Thinkpad, however despite the fact that I own a boxed and licensed copy of Windows 2000 I was forced into purchasing Windows XP as part of my chosen laptop's package.

And that is why we call it the Microsoft Tax.

...and a right PITA it is too even if you want a new machine *with* a Microsoft OS. The hassle I have trying to explain to customers that want a new machine that even though they have a copy of Windows 98 and Office 97 that they are quite happy to continue using, they are not allowed to and I am forced to sell them new copies of the software at a higher cost than the hardware they are purchasing. Add to that the problems when you explain that because they have been forced to purchase a new OS this will have to be Windows XP, which in turn will force them to upgrade some of their other software because it won't work with the newer version of Windows. In some cases this has a knock on effect on the server side software being used for an (e.g. accounting) package, which will then force an upgrade there too. This will then force upgrades of the client software on the other machines, which may not be capable of running the new client without a hardware and OS upgrades themselves. One failing machine could force a major upgrade of the whole system simply because of Microsoft's licensing policy - very, very nasty! -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/

On 4/11/2004, "Wayne Stallwood" <ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com> wrote:

This is why nobody should ever buy boxed Microsoft Operating Systems, they are worthless because it's almost impossible to buy a "clean" computer to install them on. Case in point, I wanted a new laptop earlier in the year settled on a Thinkpad, however despite the fact that I own a boxed and licensed copy of Windows 2000 I was forced into purchasing Windows XP as part of my chosen laptop's package.

What's worse is that I was happy to buy my Thinkpad with Windows XP because I wanted a legit copy to run in VMWare. Of course it only comes in a hidden disk partition, so I borrowed a friends retail disk. The problem was that the serial key on the sticker on the Thinkpad was not valid for the install disk. So, bracing myself, I rang Microsoft to find out what to do. They said that the license only covered XP for that individual laptop, hence why the serial only worked in the copy in my hidden partition. I said that I WAS wanting to use XP on the laptop it came with, just that I wanted to run it in VMWare. They said that the software wasn't meant to work that way. So I told them up-front that since I WAS running XP on the laptop it was purchased for that I was going to find a "dodgy" serial for it and that, since they knew who I was, they could try and stop me. That was about 6 months ago now and I haven't heard anything back yet... Matt

On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 08:52:06PM +0100, Wayne Stallwood wrote:

You've got me thinking though and If I ever manage to source a supply of good quality Linux friendly laptops without paying MS tax I will be sure to post an offer to the list.

Dell will supply laptops without Windows installed, but you may have a struggle getting them to admit it. http://www.transtec.co.uk /used/ to supply Linux laptops but it looks like they have stopped doing this, but I can't check for certain as their site is running very slowly right now. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem

On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 10:32:07PM +0100, Wayne Stallwood wrote:

On Thursday 04 November 2004 8:12 pm, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:

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Dell will supply laptops without Windows installed, but you may have a struggle getting them to admit it. http://www.transtec.co.uk /used/ to supply Linux laptops but it looks like they have stopped doing this, but I can't check for certain as their site is running very slowly right now.

Really, are they still doing that.

I know they did for a while, then they buckled a bit under pressure from MS and started including (I think) FreeDOS as an alternative OS choice (MS said that supplying the units without an OS at all was promoting piracy)

Then I was pretty sure Dell buckled completely and now (with the exception of some server products) they were only offering desktop and laptop products with MS OEM licences.

Well, I was looking for a new laptop for my nephew on the Dell Outlet recently and plenty kept turning up with "FreeDos" it doesn't appear as a configuration option on the site normally for buying online, but you would probably have more luck if you phoned them up first. I must admit that I thought they had given up the same as you, but the evidence of their site seems to suggest otherwise. I also think when I was looking at 1U servers the other week that Redhat advanced server was an option. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:52:06 +0100, "Wayne Stallwood" <ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com> said:

On Thursday 04 November 2004 8:57 am, tom potts wrote:

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Anyone know where I might be able to purchase a new laptop/notebook with Linux installed so M$ get none of my money? Preferably from this little backwater of a country but EU would do at a push Tom

Ever thought about an Apple machine ? Good build quality, Good battery life and you never know you may even like OS X, I know you are still paying for an OS you don't really need but at least it is a good one.

I'll second that! The Apple iBook is probably the best portable computer arround. The 12'' model is very cheap and the battery *actually* lasts for up to six hours (and it has a slot loading CDRW drive which is so cool). See <http://seb.france.free.fr/linux/ibookG4/iBookG4-howto.html>. Richard -- Richard Lewis richardlewis@fastmail.co.uk

On 05-Nov-04 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:

As it stands I was happy as the Dell outlet sold me a mobile workstation for about 950 quid (yeah, it included WinXP) instead of the "current" price of 1900 quid, all the hardware works in Linux with the exception of ACPI not working correctly (which is a right pain in the bum as pushing the lid button locks the machine up, although it does suspend ok) and needing the non-free Nvidia drivers to drive the display.

ACPI problems with laptops and Linux tend to occur. I had a similar issue with mine (RH 9.1 on a Compaq Armada 1750), but discovered that what it didn't like was ACPI cutting in when the screen was displaying X. If I switch (Ctrl-Alt-F1) to the plain console, then all is OK. But if it's displaying X (as in Alt-F7) either when I press the lid button or when (after 10 minutes) the machine goes into suspend, then somehow it is locked. Pressing Fn+[display switcher function key] gives a brief ghostly flash of the original X display. but further progress is impossible. So: if closing the lid, I do Ctrl-Alt-F1 first. Also: I have written a little script (loaded at boot) which monitors /proc/interrupts for keyboard or mouse activity every 5 minutes. If such activity has occured, then the script starts from scratch again. If there is no mouse or keyboard activity in the 5 minutes, then the script switches the machine to the console automatically (using the command 'chvt 1'). When I want X back, I just press Alt-F7. This bypasses the problem. The script is below ("swap_vt"). Maybe some may find it useful. (You can uncomment the commented lines for testing how it works). Best wishes to all, Ted. ===================== swap_vt starts ======================== #! /bin/bash while true ; do C_KBD=`cat /proc/interrupts | awk '/keyboard/{print $2}'` ; # echo "C_KBD = $C_KBD" if [ -n "P_KBD" ] ; then P_KBD=$KBD ; else P_KBD=0 ; fi KBD=$C_KBD ; C_MUS=`cat /proc/interrupts | awk '/Mouse/{print $2}'` ; # echo "C_MUS = $C_MUS" if [ -n "P_MUS" ] ; then P_MUS=$MUS ; else P_MUS=0 ; fi MUS=$C_MUS # echo "KBD=$KBD ; P_KBD=$P_KBD ; MUS=$MUS ; P_MUS=$P_MUS" if [ $KBD -eq $P_KBD ] ; then if [ $MUS -eq $P_MUS ] ; then chvt 1 ; fi fi sleep 5m ; done ===================== swap_vt ends ========================== -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 [NB: New number!] Date: 05-Nov-04 Time: 12:19:14 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

On 05-Nov-04 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:

On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 12:19:14PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:

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So: if closing the lid, I do Ctrl-Alt-F1 first.

Also: I have written a little script (loaded at boot) which monitors

If you are running acpid you could create events tied to actions (such as closing the lid) so that when pushing the lid button it goes to sleep (or whatever it does) and then when opening the lid runs the script you have written which would save you having to wait 5 minutes.

Maybe I didn't explain clearly. The point of the script is to circumvent the situation where, if I leave the machine alone for 10 minutes (whereupon it automatically goes into "suspend"), it is not displaying X when it suspends, since this renders the machine unusable. The script ensures that the machine is in "console" mode after 5 minutes of inactivity, so that suspend does not cause any problems. Likewise, if I close the lid, I make sure it is in "console" mode (with Ctrl-Alt-F1) before doing so. Then, on resumption (whether by opening the lid or moving the mouse or tapping a key), the machine responds instantly (but in console mode since that's where it was when it went to sleep); then I can get X back with Alt-F7. It only takes a couple of seconds, and I certainly don't have to wait 5 minutes! Best wishes, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 [NB: New number!] Date: 05-Nov-04 Time: 14:13:33 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------