Hmmm.... Seems like people HAVE indeed heard of this part of the world. Maybe we need a special East Suffolk Branch?
You know, I've thought for some time that one of the difficulties that we face is that ALUG covers a very large area. As linux use spreads then perhaps we need to focus on smaller catchment areas. It is significant, for example, that the Norwich PC user group has recently held two monthly meetings devoted to linux.
Of course is important to avoid schisms and splintering - or even to give the appearance of setting off alone. Within the LUG structure, is there any provision for local groups, affiliated to a regional umbrella group (e.g. a Martesham LUG affiliated to ALUG)?
Just a thought thrown open for discussion. Syd
On Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 10:59:59AM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
Hmmm.... Seems like people HAVE indeed heard of this part of the world. Maybe we need a special East Suffolk Branch?
You know, I've thought for some time that one of the difficulties that we face is that ALUG covers a very large area. As linux use spreads then perhaps we need to focus on smaller catchment areas. It is significant, for example, that the Norwich PC user group has recently held two monthly meetings devoted to linux.
They have? I didn't even know there was a Norwich PC user group TBH, it would be nice if their meeting announcements were posted here as I am sure some of the Norwich people would be interested in attending.
Of course is important to avoid schisms and splintering - or even to give the appearance of setting off alone. Within the LUG structure, is there any provision for local groups, affiliated to a regional umbrella group (e.g. a Martesham LUG affiliated to ALUG)?
Anybody is free to setup their own lug, its kind of the Linux thing. If you want to setup a Martelsham LUG then go for it but surely it would be better to get the people from Martelsham on this list and arrange meetings here for everyone to attend? I don't see what you gain by having 100 different LUGs in East Anglia right now as the few lugs that there are seem to be quite small. I think you lose more by having lots of fractured LUGS as then to keep up with everything you have to be on more and more mailing lists.
IMHO you would be better off getting people on here, and arranging maybe your first meeting or two through Alug, if it really takes off then it may be worthwhile creating a seperate entity/mailing list etc. etc. and just cross post meeting announcements etc. here and to Alug-announce. The LUG community gains from sharing of information, when you make it more difficult to share information then you lose overall.
Maybe I am just a bit sullied at the thought of people nearly (but not quite) getting around to the old suggestion that nothing happens with Alug so they want to setup their own groups but these people never seem to want to get involved with Alug in the first place. Anyhow the old thing of Alug *needs* and *wants* more organisers, more meeting venues and more impetus, more talks, more website content, more publicity etc. etc. If you have something you can offer then please do it and post it on the list. Also if you do know of any East Anglian LUGS or related groups that are interested in Linux please point them at us and us at them! Then we can add links to them on the Alug webpage and hopefully they will link back to us, lets share our publicity and our catchment area!
Adam
On Sunday 23 Mar 2003 11:31 am, Adam Bower wrote:
smaller catchment areas. It is significant, for example, that the Norwich PC user group has recently held two monthly meetings devoted to linux.
They have? I didn't even know there was a Norwich PC user group
Well, I did post to the list about the first one! Not much response though. Perhaps you didn't read the post?
They do have a website and regular meetings. And a formal membership struture complete with annual subscriptions etc but non-members can attend one meeting free of charge. When I have some free time I plan to see what they're like.
If you want to setup a Martelsham LUG then go for it but surely it would be better to get the people from Martelsham on this list and arrange meetings here for everyone to attend?
Actually I don't live anywhere near Martelsham, I mentioned it only because someone else from Martelsham was talking on the list about having local meetings so it seemed a suitable place to choose as an example. I sort of assumed people were keeping up with the discussion!
(Oops - sarcasm - lowest form of wit etc - can't resist it sometimes though, heh).
Maybe I am just a bit sullied at the thought of people nearly (but not quite) getting around to the old suggestion that nothing happens with Alug so they want to setup their own groups but these people never seem to want to get involved with Alug in the first place.
I assume this is ageneral comment on the thread so far.
On a personal level, yes I do plead guilty to not being very involved - unfortunately I am busy seven days a week at present and will be for some time so haven't been able to attend any meetings for a long time, not even the ones close to where I live (i.e UEA).
But, in my defense, I have posted to the list about events such as the NPCUG meeting about linux - with minimal response (MJR only).
Not only that but I posted suggestions for a couple of possible venues for the meetings planned for Norwich area when UEA facilities are not available in the summer - again, there was almost no response at all (once again, only MJR) which, as I also posted to the list soon after, rather speaks for itself, doesn't it? Feedback saying they were not suitable venues would be preferable to seeing the ideas vanish into a black hole.
Anyhow the old thing of Alug *needs* and *wants* more organisers, more meeting venues and more impetus, more talks, more website content, more publicity etc. etc. If you have something you can offer then please do it and post it on the list. Also if you do know of any East Anglian LUGS or related groups that are interested in Linux please point them at us and us at them!
See previous paragraph re both these points - what if anything happens if anyone does post things to the list? Does anyone take a blind bit of notice? My experience is that it is hardly worth taking the trouble, to be honest, if no-one shows any interest. So I read messages about the need for venues etc with rather a wry smile.
Having said all this, would there be any interest in say a regular meeting in the Norwich area as well as the ALUG meetings spread over the region? (You have to be very committed to make a 70-100 mile round trip).
If so then perhaps in a few months' time, when (fingers crossed) life becomes less pressured for me, then I might well be interested in setting up something (small, informal and low-key). I may not know much about linux but I do have some experience of organising stuff.
So, is anyone interested?
Regards Syd
Syd
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 07:23:41PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
On Sunday 23 Mar 2003 11:31 am, Adam Bower wrote:
They have? I didn't even know there was a Norwich PC user group
Well, I did post to the list about the first one! Not much response though. Perhaps you didn't read the post?
Possibly not, I have moved house or changed job about 7 times in the past 18 months, most of that time although still trying to be a regular alug contributer it has been hard (sometimes involving an 1 hour journey to a cybercafe to turn up for IRC meetings and then an hour home again)
They do have a website and regular meetings. And a formal membership struture complete with annual subscriptions etc but non-members can attend one meeting free of charge. When I have some free time I plan to see what they're like.
This is one reason I would not be interested, a formal membership structure doesnt' really suit things like a group of like minded hackers wanting to meet up for a discussion and a few beers. Will they sue me if I started another local group?
Actually I don't live anywhere near Martelsham, I mentioned it only because someone else from Martelsham was talking on the list about having local meetings so it seemed a suitable place to choose as an example. I sort of assumed people were keeping up with the discussion!
(Oops - sarcasm - lowest form of wit etc - can't resist it sometimes though, heh).
I don't know where you live, should I?
Maybe I am just a bit sullied at the thought of people nearly (but not quite) getting around to the old suggestion that nothing happens with Alug so they want to setup their own groups but these people never seem to want to get involved with Alug in the first place.
I assume this is ageneral comment on the thread so far.
Of course it was, this is why i said "old suggestion" and you can see what I mean in MJRs reply.
But, in my defense, I have posted to the list about events such as the NPCUG meeting about linux - with minimal response (MJR only).
You don't need a defense, just I am trying to get people to do more any contribution is better than none.
Not only that but I posted suggestions for a couple of possible venues for the meetings planned for Norwich area when UEA facilities are not available in the summer - again, there was almost no response at all (once again, only MJR) which, as I also posted to the list soon after, rather speaks for itself, doesn't it? Feedback saying they were not suitable venues would be preferable to seeing the ideas vanish into a black hole.
Well seeing as I wasn't living in or around EA at the time I didn't reply to the mail as I knew I would not be attending or likely to be attending so adding my contribution to a discussion for a preffered venue was not really going to help anybody very much.
See previous paragraph re both these points - what if anything happens if anyone does post things to the list? Does anyone take a blind bit of notice? My experience is that it is hardly worth taking the trouble, to be honest, if no-one shows any interest. So I read messages about the need for venues etc with rather a wry smile.
Well you need to get some momentum, if you take the attitude that you have a run of bad meetings so things won't get better then giving up isn't much good to anyone. If you think that we no longer need venues as there is no Alug you are very very wrong. The last meeting I attented in Suffolk was very interesting and we managed to get another person using GNU/Linux. Basically if everyone takes the attitude that its not worth it and nothings happening then it can only help to propogate those feelings. If you really feel it is not worth taking the trouble then why mail the list and say so?
If so then perhaps in a few months' time, when (fingers crossed) life becomes less pressured for me, then I might well be interested in setting up something (small, informal and low-key). I may not know much about linux but I do have some experience of organising stuff.
So, is anyone interested?
Of course, start something and make it happen. I would be very interested.
Adam
On Monday 24 Mar 2003 10:27 pm, Adam Bower wrote:
Well you need to get some momentum, if you take the attitude that you have a run of bad meetings so things won't get better then giving up isn't much good to anyone. If you think that we no longer need venues as there is no Alug you are very very wrong.
Errmm, I don't think I said either of those things :-)
I was saying that sometimes I wonder if it is worth posting information and offers of help if there is no response. Hence my 'wry smile' when I see people saying that we need more venues and events organised! Is that clearer now? (And that is *not* meant as sarcasm, honestly).
If you really feel it is not worth taking the trouble then why mail the list and say so?
Oh, I was just feeling a bit frustrated and irritated that's all. See previous paragraph :-)
If so then perhaps in a few months' time, when (fingers crossed) life becomes less pressured for me, then I might well be interested in setting up something (small, informal and low-key). I may not know much about linux but I do have some experience of organising stuff.
So, is anyone interested?
Of course, start something and make it happen. I would be very interested.
Well, it's not 'of course' at all because previous suggestions have been totally ignored! But it is encouraging to get at least one positive reaction at last.
Regards Syd
On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 11:23:11PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
On Monday 24 Mar 2003 10:27 pm, Adam Bower wrote:
Well you need to get some momentum, if you take the attitude that you have a run of bad meetings so things won't get better then giving up isn't much good to anyone. If you think that we no longer need venues as there is no Alug you are very very wrong.
Errmm, I don't think I said either of those things :-)
As I have already pointed out this is not aimed directly at you, I am answering the question about forking things, and replying to your suggestion that nobody is listening because they don't reply here. The other thing I am getting at is the replies that I know would turn up about a week after your message, don't think they are aimed at you, just venting frustations In advance. Anyhow the whole point being that when an Alug event is arranged you will find that at least 2 or 3 times as many people will turn up than actually acknowledge it on this list. (yes i know that 2 x 0 = 0 ;))
I was saying that sometimes I wonder if it is worth posting information and offers of help if there is no response. Hence my 'wry smile' when I see people saying that we need more venues and events organised! Is that clearer now? (And that is *not* meant as sarcasm, honestly).
Hmmmm, I still think you are very much mistaken. more venues and meetings are exactly what we need at the moment. So what if only 4 people turned up for the first 6 months, at least others on this list would feel that something was happening and hopefully they would turn up too. This has been my experience in the past that when people see regular meetings being held then things pick up a bit overall.
If you really feel it is not worth taking the trouble then why mail the list and say so?
Oh, I was just feeling a bit frustrated and irritated that's all. See previous paragraph :-)
You and me both.
Of course, start something and make it happen. I would be very interested.
Well, it's not 'of course' at all because previous suggestions have been totally ignored! But it is encouraging to get at least one positive reaction at last.
They wouldn't have been ignored by me but were for reasons that I have already explained, you also said that MJR didn't ignore them, again if you organise I think you will find people will majically appear out of the wordwork. Just because they don't post on a mailing list doesn't mean they don't agree with you...
The other main problem is that lots of threads about doing and organising anything (I just realised how formal "organise" sounds) end up getting tacked on as a sub thread for something else. You will find that Alug is actually quite active on the "organising meetings" front just maybe not on this list out in the open atm. There will be a post from me soon to this list to work out exactly what is happening and when for the rest of the year and a couple of other bits (note soon means the next week or so) and when that is finalised I will perhaps write some kind of "press release" for people to distribute to related newsgroups/mailing lists/posters in the local library etc.
Adam
Anyhow the whole point being that when an Alug event is arranged you will find that at least 2 or 3 times as many people will turn up than actually acknowledge it on this list.
Yes, you're absolutely right - very good point.
Thanks for the discussion!
Syd
Adam Bower abower@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Maybe I am just a bit sullied at the thought of people nearly (but not quite) getting around to the old suggestion that nothing happens with Alug so they want to setup their own groups [...]
You have to remember, Adam, how many of these that we've heard from off-list, one way or another, who have gone on to do *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* at all. They've not helped ALUG and they've not started their own groups. Stand up if you can hear me, the "leaders" of the two Norwich LUGs, the Ipswich LUG and the North-East Essex LUGs...
I think it's telling that they all want to be leaders. I don't think any of the ALUG veterans really have any ambitions to lead a LUG. Time after time appeals for help are posted. As long as ALUG works, I think we're all happy. Does it work? Are we happy yet? How about now?
Now one of the other May-99ers will flame me and declare themselves fuhrer. ;-)
MJR
I think it's telling that they all want to be leaders.
That's probably true (I don't know these people). Avoiding actions being interpreted in this way is one reason for reluctance to suggest things. Is this why suggestions are ignored? If that is the impression I have given then I can only apologise.
Time after time appeals for help are posted.
My point is that offers of help, sharing of information etc about other groups etc seem to get almost no response. It is frustrating.
Syd
On 2003-03-24 21:51:09 +0000 Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com wrote:
That's probably true (I don't know these people). Avoiding actions being interpreted in this way is one reason for reluctance to suggest things. Is this why suggestions are ignored? If that is the impression I have given then I can only apologise.
Suggestions may get ignored because we are a headless bunch. If you are looking for Martyn, John, Adam, myself or anyone else to say "Yes, I beknight the idea with the power of ALUG" then it won't happen. If you want people to say "yes, this is a good idea, please do it and let us know how to help you" then that often happens. I'd love more people to throw ideas in and comment on the ideas of others.
It's the "doing it" that seems to be the stumbling block. I don't really understand why and it is frustrating, indeed. The ideas don't normally need the people taking care of particular things (eg web site, mailing list, domain, other venues) to do anything, so why do they stop? If they do need a helping hand, then you may have to kick the incumbent a couple of times to get movement. For example, I'm aware of one suggestion that I need to do something for (library) but I want to do it properly. Annoying, but all ALUGgers have real lives too, last I checked.
On Monday 24 Mar 2003 11:43 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
Suggestions may get ignored because we are a headless bunch. If you are looking for Martyn, John, Adam, myself or anyone else to say "Yes, I beknight the idea with the power of ALUG" then it won't happen.
No no, I can assure you that that is not what I was looking for :-)
If you want people to say "yes, this is a good idea, please do it and let us know how to help you" then that often happens. I'd love more people to throw ideas in and comment on the ideas of others.
Yes, that is the sort of general response that seems lacking. Not sure that 'often happens' is accurate.
It's the "doing it" that seems to be the stumbling block. I don't really understand why and it is frustrating, indeed.
Perhaps connected with the general lack of interest shown, as discussed above? Do people feel motivated or demotivated if suggestions don't get a broad response of 'yes, good idea, why not go ahead?' Obvious answer: demotivating. No-one will arrange something if apparently no-one is interested. That is the sole point I have been trying to make in this discussion.
Anyway, must go to bed. Guess there's not a lot more to say really! And if/when I have less going on then I'll see what I can arrange, assuming that some interest is shown.
Syd
Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com wrote:
Yes, that is the sort of general response that seems lacking. Not=20 sure that 'often happens' is accurate.
Anything to do with the Norwich area seems to have been troublesome for about six months (or maybe more). I don't really understand why, as surely some (many?) of the 200ish people on main must be from there. Maybe we rely on tsw/UEA too much?
Anyone from Norwich/East Norfolk want to introduce themselves? It seems that if you want things to happen well around Norwich, then you at least need to stop lurking and start posting, please.
I live in catley (halfway between norwich and yarmouth), and work in norwich weekdays, and every other sat. I would like to go to a meeting, specifically bringing my machine so one of you people can fix my AGP woes ;) uea meeting i may get round to visiting.
Tristan Scott Computer Engineer PC-Seller PLC 355 Alysham road, opposite boundary pub Norwich NR3 2RX Tel: 01603 442233 Fax: 01603 404410
----- Original Message ----- From: "MJ Ray" markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk To: main@lists.alug.org.uk Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Alug] Introduction to the group
Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com wrote:
Yes, that is the sort of general response that seems lacking. Not=20 sure that 'often happens' is accurate.
Anything to do with the Norwich area seems to have been troublesome for about six months (or maybe more). I don't really understand why, as surely some (many?) of the 200ish people on main must be from there. Maybe we rely on tsw/UEA too much?
Anyone from Norwich/East Norfolk want to introduce themselves? It seems that if you want things to happen well around Norwich, then you at least need to stop lurking and start posting, please.
-- MJR http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ IM: slef@jabber.at This is my home web site. This for Jabber Messaging.
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Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com wrote:
It is significant, for example, that the Norwich PC user group has recently held two monthly meetings devoted to linux.
Can *SOMEONE* who goes to these meetings get them to answer their emails? I've emailed them twice recently and not heard a word in reply. I may be emailing the wrong people or something trivial like that, but it's frustrating, as everyone who's ever tried to talk to a brick wall will tell you.
Of course is important to avoid schisms and splintering - or even to give the appearance of setting off alone. Within the LUG structure, is there any provision for local groups, affiliated to a regional umbrella group (e.g. a Martesham LUG affiliated to ALUG)?
I'd love a "Martlesham ALUG Faction" to exist. Of course, ALUG does not exist, so that would be an interesting existential question for you philosophers out there.
Because of the above, anyone can do anything. What is important is to carry people with you and *try* to avoid really offending anyone. I know I don't always manage that, but 99% of the time, things seem to keep going.
-
Adam Bower -
MJ Ray -
Syd Hancock -
Tristan