Can anyone explain why this HTML table displays as it does?
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary. Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML. However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses. All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere. The url is:- http://www.isbd.net/images/itinerary.html There's very little CSS and not much HTML so why are the borders so wonky? -- Chris Green
They work fine here..... have you fixed it already?? Using Firefox 3.0.5 by the way! On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Chris G <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
The url is:-
http://www.isbd.net/images/itinerary.html
There's very little CSS and not much HTML so why are the borders so wonky?
-- Chris Green
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On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:21:42PM +0000, Alex Scotton wrote:
They work fine here..... have you fixed it already??
Using Firefox 3.0.5 by the way!
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Chris G <[1]cl@isbd.net> wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
The work 'fine' by Firefox logic but I want *all* the borders to be the same pale grey *without* any shading. With the shading that Firefox insists on doing all the borders except the RHS and bottom look much darker than I want. There's no way (except by using CSS) to get Firefox to give really faint borders.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
The url is:-
[2]http://www.isbd.net/images/itinerary.html
There's very little CSS and not much HTML so why are the borders so wonky?
-- Chris Green
Chris G wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
The default border style for tables is generally "outset" - this gives a slightly different shade on the inside and the outside. Furthermore, the cell at the bottom right contains no content at all - this reliably causes browsers to do strange things with the border around them (it promotes the border of what it thinks is the more "interesting" cells around the empty one). You can fix the latter by including something like " " in the cell, or better to add something like border-collapse: collapse; border: 1px solid #6e6e6e; empty-cells: show; to the table "style" property. This gives everything a uniform 1-pixel black border and forces the cells without content to display as if they did. -- ====================================================================== Simon Ransome, Senior Engineer http://taptu.com Taptu Ltd 140 Science Park, Milton Road, Cambridge CB4 0GF
On 20-Jan-09 12:16:29, Chris G wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
The url is:-
http://www.isbd.net/images/itinerary.html
There's very little CSS and not much HTML so why are the borders so wonky? -- Chris Green
For what it's worth: with one possible exception, using Iceweasel 2.0.0.18 it looks fine. The "odd one out" is that the big empty box at the bottom right (spanning the last 4 rows) has thinner border lines than the other cells (which all have the same, thicker, border thicknesses). I couldn't spot anything in the HTML which might correspond to this, but then I'm no HTML expert at all! Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@manchester.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 20-Jan-09 Time: 12:49:29 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:49:32PM -0000, Ted Harding wrote:
On 20-Jan-09 12:16:29, Chris G wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
The url is:-
http://www.isbd.net/images/itinerary.html
There's very little CSS and not much HTML so why are the borders so wonky? -- Chris Green
For what it's worth: with one possible exception, using Iceweasel 2.0.0.18 it looks fine. The "odd one out" is that the big empty box at the bottom right (spanning the last 4 rows) has thinner border lines than the other cells (which all have the same, thicker, border thicknesses).
That's how IE 7 shows it too. It's better than Firefox manages but it's still "not right". It's as if Firefox is trying to do some sort of clever shading as if it's lit from one corner but not doing very well because of the non symmetrical layout. Maybe there's a CSS setting which will tell it not to be clever.
I couldn't spot anything in the HTML which might correspond to this, but then I'm no HTML expert at all!
No, neither can I, but the row spans look a little odd to me on staring at it a bit more. -- Chris Green
On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 12:16 +0000, Chris G wrote:
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
Is it the cells in the bottom right of the table that are not displaying as you would like, i.e. starting just to the right of "Travel south slowly"? If so these display differently because they are empty. By this I mean completely empty as in there is nothing between the opening <td> and the closing </td> which is not the same a cell that contains only white space which is the case with some of the cells earlier in the table that just look empty. I am not sure where the convention came from that browsers fail to draw borders around empty cells but it does seem to be the case with common browsers. I normally fix this by putting a non-breaking space in the cell ( ) but I have never tried to do that via open office. Regards, Steve.
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:51:57PM +0000, Steve Fosdick wrote:
On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 12:16 +0000, Chris G wrote:
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
Is it the cells in the bottom right of the table that are not displaying as you would like, i.e. starting just to the right of "Travel south slowly"?
If so these display differently because they are empty. By this I mean completely empty as in there is nothing between the opening <td> and the closing </td> which is not the same a cell that contains only white space which is the case with some of the cells earlier in the table that just look empty. I am not sure where the convention came from that browsers fail to draw borders around empty cells but it does seem to be the case with common browsers.
Yes, you're right!
I normally fix this by putting a non-breaking space in the cell ( ) but I have never tried to do that via open office.
I've just added some text to the test URL and now it's OK in IE 7, Firefox is still trying to be a bit too clever for its own good though. http://www.isbd.net/images/itinerary.html Can anyone tell me how to get Firefox *not* to try and 'shade' the borders but just leave them plain and in the colour I specify? -- Chris Green
On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 13:01 +0000, Chris G wrote:
Can anyone tell me how to get Firefox *not* to try and 'shade' the borders but just leave them plain and in the colour I specify?
The old way was to specify a border width of 1 pixel which you have already done. This worked because browsers used to try to achieve the 3D effect by using two lines of slightly different colours and confining the browser to one pixel wide prevented this. There is a CSS property called border-style which takes the values dotted, dashed, solid, double, groove, ridge, inset or outset so you could try that. I don't know if you'd have to apply it to the table or to the cell but it may be worth a go. Regards, Steve.
The message <1232455917.19182.19.camel@localhost> from Steve Fosdick <lists@pelvoux.nildram.co.uk> contains these words:
On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 12:16 +0000, Chris G wrote:
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
Is it the cells in the bottom right of the table that are not displaying as you would like, i.e. starting just to the right of "Travel south slowly"?
If so these display differently because they are empty. By this I mean completely empty as in there is nothing between the opening <td> and the closing </td> which is not the same a cell that contains only white space which is the case with some of the cells earlier in the table that just look empty. I am not sure where the convention came from that browsers fail to draw borders around empty cells but it does seem to be the case with common browsers.
I normally fix this by putting a non-breaking space in the cell ( ) but I have never tried to do that via open office.
Yes - empty blocks in a table should have the tag - I've never known it to alter the thickness of the border, but its omission can certainly hooter the row. The tagline should read: <td> </td> I'll look at the code Open Office produced when i get home - just going out for half an hour or so... -- Tony http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
The message <20090120121629.GA10501@v-shell-1.gradwell.net> from Chris G <cl@isbd.net> contains these words:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
The url is:-
There's very little CSS and not much HTML so why are the borders so wonky?
Renders perfectly in FF3 here. Above the table you've got a <p><br><br></p> - the paragraph pair is unnecessary (at least, ATM, but that won't affect the rendering. The only other thing there (which won't affect rendering either) is that HTMLgate complains that the document looks like HTML 4, but has a HTML 4.1 tag in it. -- Tony http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 01:43:04PM -0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message <20090120121629.GA10501@v-shell-1.gradwell.net> from Chris G <cl@isbd.net> contains these words:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
However neither Firefox 3 nor IE 7 seem to display the table borders correctly. Firefox 3 does really wierd things to some of the borders and IE 7 just shows them with differing thicknesses.
All I want is the same cell/table borders everywhere.
The url is:-
There's very little CSS and not much HTML so why are the borders so wonky?
Renders perfectly in FF3 here.
As in it has no shading and absolutely plain borders all of which are pale grey? For me it's now displaying 'right' by Firefox's rules but with shading so that the borders are darker than I want whereas IE just displays them as solid pale grey. I want *all* the borders to look like the RHS and bottom borders.
Above the table you've got a <p><br><br></p> - the paragraph pair is unnecessary (at least, ATM, but that won't affect the rendering.
The only other thing there (which won't affect rendering either) is that HTMLgate complains that the document looks like HTML 4, but has a HTML 4.1 tag in it.
-- Chris Green
The message <20090120151332.GA32123@v-shell-1> from Chris G <cl@isbd.net> contains these words:
Renders perfectly in FF3 here.
As in it has no shading and absolutely plain borders all of which are pale grey? For me it's now displaying 'right' by Firefox's rules but with shading so that the borders are darker than I want whereas IE just displays them as solid pale grey.
Looking again, the right and bottom borders are not displaying properly - they should have a black 'shadow'.
I want *all* the borders to look like the RHS and bottom borders.
No idea how you would do that with a table. I'll have a think... ...and a fiddle. Can't make it do what you want - I suggest you have a trawl through www.w3c.com -- Tony http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 04:16:01PM -0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message <20090120151332.GA32123@v-shell-1> from Chris G <cl@isbd.net> contains these words:
Renders perfectly in FF3 here.
As in it has no shading and absolutely plain borders all of which are pale grey? For me it's now displaying 'right' by Firefox's rules but with shading so that the borders are darker than I want whereas IE just displays them as solid pale grey.
Looking again, the right and bottom borders are not displaying properly - they should have a black 'shadow'.
I want *all* the borders to look like the RHS and bottom borders.
No idea how you would do that with a table.
I'll have a think...
...and a fiddle.
Can't make it do what you want - I suggest you have a trawl through www.w3c.com
Yes, I know how to get what I want using CSS, set the border style to 'plain', it's just that Firefox defaults to 'not plain'. However Brett's pointer to Export as XHTML in Open Office has produced what I want. Thank you Brett. -- Chris Green
The message <20090120164816.GE32123@v-shell-1> from Chris G <cl@isbd.net> contains these words:
Can't make it do what you want - I suggest you have a trawl through www.w3c.com
Yes, I know how to get what I want using CSS, set the border style to 'plain', it's just that Firefox defaults to 'not plain'.
However Brett's pointer to Export as XHTML in Open Office has produced what I want. Thank you Brett.
That's good. IIRC, Open Offise saves its docs in XML -- Tony http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
On 20 Jan 12:16, Chris G wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
How are you generating the HTML in OpenOffice? It appears to give better results if you go to: File -> Export... And then select the XHTML file format. You'll probably get much much better cross browser results that way, and the borders will be less sucky. HTH HAND, -- Brett Parker
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 02:29:30PM +0000, Brett Parker wrote:
On 20 Jan 12:16, Chris G wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
How are you generating the HTML in OpenOffice? It appears to give better results if you go to: File -> Export...
And then select the XHTML file format. You'll probably get much much
I don't seem to have XHTML as an export format. Is this an Open Office version 3 addition by any chance?
better cross browser results that way, and the borders will be less sucky.
I just want plain borders, that's all. My problem seems to be Firefox being too clever. -- Chris Green
Hi, 2009/1/20 Chris G <cl@isbd.net>:
I just want plain borders, that's all. My problem seems to be Firefox being too clever.
Have you seen: http://www.somacon.com/p141.php Something there about table border-collapse being set to collapse, creates 1 px borders that have no 3D effect what so ever. (play about with the buttons and look at the supplied test table just above the CSS and HTML source code.) Is that what you want? I guess you'd have to use CSS for that, but there may be a pure HTML equivalent. Srdjan
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 03:23:41PM +0000, Srdjan Todorovic wrote:
Hi,
2009/1/20 Chris G <cl@isbd.net>:
I just want plain borders, that's all. My problem seems to be Firefox being too clever.
Have you seen: http://www.somacon.com/p141.php
I'd actually just got there via some Googling.
Something there about table border-collapse being set to collapse, creates 1 px borders that have no 3D effect what so ever. (play about with the buttons and look at the supplied test table just above the CSS and HTML source code.)
Is that what you want? I guess you'd have to use CSS for that, but there may be a pure HTML equivalent.
Yes, by applying my own CSS I can get what I want. It seems a pity that there's no simple way to stop Firefox being clever though. The trouble is that I'm using OpenOffice to create the table and it writes the CSS stylesheet. I can only change the CSS "after the event" as it were by directly editing the HTML. That rather removes the point of using OpenOffice in teh first place. All I'm after is a simple way of creating tables, OpenOffice is the best tool I've found so far. Kompozer/nvu might have been a (better) candidate by=ut the current version crashes consistently (a known issue apparently). If anyone else has any suggestions for quick ways of generating tables like the one in my example then I'd be very pleased to hear about them. Writing raw HTML is not an option as far as I'm concerned, it's OK for some things but for tables where I'm likely to want to add columns, merge and split cells, etc. it's not a sensible way to do it. -- Chris Green
On 20 Jan 15:17, Chris G wrote:
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 02:29:30PM +0000, Brett Parker wrote:
On 20 Jan 12:16, Chris G wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
How are you generating the HTML in OpenOffice? It appears to give better results if you go to: File -> Export...
And then select the XHTML file format. You'll probably get much much
I don't seem to have XHTML as an export format. Is this an Open Office version 3 addition by any chance?
No, this is OpenOffice.org from the etch backports, it's 2.4.1.
better cross browser results that way, and the borders will be less sucky.
I just want plain borders, that's all. My problem seems to be Firefox being too clever.
It's not being clever in the slightest, it's looking at the ikky HTML that's being generated and degrading to HTML 3 type standards, with the unquoted evil that's involved - because BORDER=1 in the table it's using that - it should be using css and css classes to do the borders, which is what happens from the export option for me. I also appear to have and export to LaTeX, which is mildly interesting. Thanks, -- Brett Parker
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 03:50:25PM +0000, Brett Parker wrote:
On 20 Jan 15:17, Chris G wrote:
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 02:29:30PM +0000, Brett Parker wrote:
On 20 Jan 12:16, Chris G wrote:
I'm trying to create a fairly simple table to lay out an itinerary.
Currently I'm using OpenOffice as it makes it easy to generate the table with row spans and column spans etc. It actually seems to produce quite straightforward HTML.
How are you generating the HTML in OpenOffice? It appears to give better results if you go to: File -> Export...
And then select the XHTML file format. You'll probably get much much
I don't seem to have XHTML as an export format. Is this an Open Office version 3 addition by any chance?
No, this is OpenOffice.org from the etch backports, it's 2.4.1.
That's exactly what I have too. Why haven't I got the XHTML format? I would have thought I have just about exactly the same OpenOffice as you as I'm usign Ubuntu. Is there anything (else) that has to be installed for OpenOffice.org to offer me the XHTML export?
better cross browser results that way, and the borders will be less sucky.
I just want plain borders, that's all. My problem seems to be Firefox being too clever.
It's not being clever in the slightest, it's looking at the ikky HTML that's being generated and degrading to HTML 3 type standards, with the unquoted evil that's involved - because BORDER=1 in the table it's using that - it should be using css and css classes to do the borders, which is what happens from the export option for me.
But why does BORDER=1 mean 'shaded borders' ?
I also appear to have and export to LaTeX, which is mildly interesting.
-- Chris Green
The message <20090120161157.GD32123@v-shell-1> from Chris G <cl@isbd.net> contains these words:
But why does BORDER=1 mean 'shaded borders' ?
It always has done. What beats me is why the right and bottom borders don't render as shaded. I've been looking at some W3C downloaded pages, and can't find anything in them that will do what you want with HTML. I haven't plated with XTML so i don't know if that will. CSS will, but all my attempts at using CSS have failed miserably... -- Tony http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 04:11:57PM +0000, Chris G wrote:
And then select the XHTML file format. You'll probably get much much
I don't seem to have XHTML as an export format. Is this an Open Office version 3 addition by any chance?
No, this is OpenOffice.org from the etch backports, it's 2.4.1.
That's exactly what I have too. Why haven't I got the XHTML format? I would have thought I have just about exactly the same OpenOffice as you as I'm usign Ubuntu.
Is there anything (else) that has to be installed for OpenOffice.org to offer me the XHTML export?
Well I've got there now. I'm not sure if it was because I needed a bit more installed or because I couldn't export a file which already had a .HTML extension. Whatever, I started again and I can now export in 'XTHML 1.0 strict' format and I get the plain borders that I want. Thanks Brett. -- Chris Green
participants (8)
-
Alex Scotton -
Anthony Anson -
Brett Parker -
Chris G -
Simon Ransome -
Srdjan Todorovic -
Steve Fosdick -
Ted.Harding＠manchester.ac.uk