Hi all Time for a two-penneth, Postgres is great, use it in a commercial env works excellent. But for small functional goodie could be a bit of an overkill...? For knocking up quick web-content I have foudn Zope (www.zope.org) to be nothing short of Brilliant. Can speak to DB, execute perl, python other CGI, has user based security model, runs staight out of the box. gotta say I love it....... Regards Earl (Released under the Zope Public Liscence - bit like LGPL as far as I can tell.....but it is free as in beer if not as in speech anyway..) Cheers Earl On 03 May 2001 17:37, alug-admin@stu.uea.ac.uk [SMTP:alug-admin@stu.uea.ac.uk] wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: ALUG Library ... (Andrew Savory)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (Andrew Savory)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (Neill Newman)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (Neill Newman)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (Neill Newman)
- Re: IP Traffic monitoring (Andrew Chandler)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (MJ Ray)
- Re: self intro (MJ Ray)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (David Freeman)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (David Freeman)
- one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (David Freeman)
- Language wars // was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (MJ Ray)
- Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (Mark Wilkinson)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (MJ Ray)
- Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (David Freeman)
- Re: ALUG Library ... (David Freeman)
--__--__--
Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:07:59 +0100 From: Andrew Savory a.savory@btinternet.com To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... Reply-To: Andrew Savory a.savory@btinternet.com
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL ;) Can I suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this....
I agree with Brett. He has a good point.
If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, um, isn't.
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these?
Anyway, enough with the random thoughts. Happy to help or advise if anyone wants.
Andrew.
-- All views are my own, who else would want them?
--__--__--
Message: 2 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:11:04 +0100 From: Andrew Savory a.savory@btinternet.com To: David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com Cc: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... Reply-To: Andrew Savory a.savory@btinternet.com
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 15:24 -0700, David Freeman wrote:
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
Depends what you're doing. HTML is wonderful as the final dressing before it hits the user's web browser, but sucks for anything other than that. Being obsessive linux hackers, I'd expect us to massively overengineer a solution using XML and a publishing engine (AxKit if we're using Apache/Perl, Cocoon if we're using Java?) so that we can access the site using our browsers, phones, PDAs, sonic screwdrivers, divining rods...
Andrew.
-- All views are my own, who else would want them?
--__--__--
Message: 3 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:18:59 +0100 From: Neill Newman neill@entora.co.uk Organization: Entora Ltd To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
Andrew Savory wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL ;) Can I suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this....
I agree with Brett. He has a good point.If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, um, isn't.
yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! hhmm nice and resilient ;).. Postgress gets my vote...
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these?
Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... although I have to admit that I like php ;)...
Sz
-- Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/
--__--__--
Message: 4 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:11:05 +0100 From: Neill Newman neill@entora.co.uk Organization: Entora Ltd To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com CC: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
David Freeman wrote:
OK - it could be done as a java server process on the webserver/some server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be well in the world...
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is very good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant and markup munged together, not nice!! html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is worth the effort...
me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta stuff before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java talking to CGIs).
/me = C and Java apprentice programmer and obeyer of the KISS principle
/me = C, Java, UML, OO, C++, Perl, PHP hacker.. I was taught OO by a Grady Booch Phd student ;) so if you need a hand with the design/implementation then give me a shout, (I've been programming in Java, both commercially and academically, since 1995 ;)...
Thanks
D
PS one of these days I will learn a proper language AKA Lisp and write some decent type programs.
aarrgghhhh no, lisp is evil ;).. *duck*
Sz
-- Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/
--__--__--
Message: 5 Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:14:00 +0100 From: Neill Newman neill@entora.co.uk Organization: Entora Ltd To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com CC: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
David Freeman wrote:
Exactly, If we make the system well it should work on any browser, even IE :o)
make sure you run any web pages through the w3 validator (http://validator.w3.org/), it is very very very usefull ;)
Sz
-- Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/
--__--__--
Message: 6 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:37:20 +0100 From: Andrew.Chandler@ft.com (Andrew Chandler) Subject: Re: [Alug] IP Traffic monitoring To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk
It's a pity you haven't access to the Cisco (I assme the router is Cisco?) There's a nice command called "ip accounting". It will give you a table of IP addresses and how much traffic they have sent.
I occasionally use this with an Expect script to drag back a set of network stats on a particular router.
There are a number of non-intrusive methods too. We have some network probes that tap into the leased line and monitor it externally. A more expensive way of doing it though!
Oh well just my 2 pence....
Andi
"Mark Wilkinson" mark@wiggis.com on 02/05/2001 17:44:09 To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk cc: (bcc: Andrew Chandler/PSD/LONDON/FTI)
Subject: Re: [Alug] IP Traffic monitoring
Hmm. That's where I was heading. The extract of the numbers is trivial and would give me 99% of their traffic.
I'll try to knock something up in Perl that whacks the data into a MySQL database directly. Could be an interesting project.
Cheers.
M.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Raphael Mankin" raph@panache.demon.co.uk To: "Mark Wilkinson" mark@wiggis.com Cc: "alug" alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:26 PM Subject: RE: [Alug] IP Traffic monitoring
It's in the Apache access log. Everything that is sent and how big it is.
Not perfect; it does not include the overhead of setting up connections, but it is a start.
On 02-May-01 Mark Wilkinson wrote:
Hi everyone.
We are about to put a website online for an important customer but we want to monitor the bandwidth usage on a monthly basis and bill them accordingly.
Has anyone any ideas on how to do IP Traffic monitoring? We don't have access to the stats on our primary router (basically our upstream won't give us the data for some reason) so I just wanted to put some kind of packet counter in..
Any ideas or package recommendations? I've looked at sourceforge but am
not
sure of the products I'm finding there. I want a standalone product that doesn't look like a beast to install and dumps the data in a nice format for sticking into a database.
Cheers.
Mark W.
alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug@stu.uea.ac.uk http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub!
... all the fallacious exactitude that characterises a statistical table. - Eric PartridgeE-Mail: Raphael Mankin raph@panache.demon.co.uk Date: 02-May-01 Time: 17:25:52
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Message: 7 To: Andrew Savory a.savory@btinternet.com Cc: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... From: MJ Ray markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 03 May 2001 11:40:21 +0100
Andrew Savory a.savory@btinternet.com writes:
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and quick,
Calling Perl nice is not something I can bring myself to do any more. OK, it's possible to do some really well-crafted software in it, but it's possible to create some monstrosities too and more people do the latter.
[...] Ruby is always being mentioned to me but I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not.
That'll be me, then. With Ruby, it's not quite so critical, as you just tweak your database object class. Even Perl's DBI isn't a perfect solution, because the SQLs don't seem to quite be the same.
[...] Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these?
Please! While I can't call Perl nice, I won't program in PHP any more beyond simple tasks because of the mental anguish it causes.
-- MJR
--__--__--
Message: 8 To: Joss Winn joss@josswinn.org Cc: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] self intro From: MJ Ray markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 03 May 2001 11:35:00 +0100
Joss Winn joss@josswinn.org writes:
Well, before the list admin finds a new member of the list who lives in Japan [...]
Oh, I don't think we'd notice another member from Japan that easily. Tats, are you still out there?
-- MJR
--__--__--
Message: 9 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) From: David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com Reply-To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk
--- Neill Newman neill@entora.co.uk wrote:
David Freeman wrote:
OK - it could be done as a java server process on the
webserver/some
server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be
well
in the world...
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is very good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant and markup munged together, not nice!! html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is worth the effort...
XML has always appeared as a very complex thing which I haven't needed to use for my very simple web site! Can any one recommend a good primer for XML.
me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta
stuff
before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java
talking
to CGIs).
/me = C and Java apprentice programmer and obeyer of the KISS
principle
/me = C, Java, UML, OO, C++, Perl, PHP hacker.. I was taught OO by a Grady Booch Phd student ;) so if you need a hand with the design/implementation then give me a shout, (I've been programming in Java, both commercially and academically, since 1995 ;)...
/me = self tought with far to many habits
But I've just written my first kernel MODULE!!! and it work, which was a big surprise
Thanks D PS one of these days I will learn a proper language AKA Lisp and
write
some decent type programs.
aarrgghhhh no, lisp is evil ;).. *duck*
Yes, it may be evil, but the darker side is very appealing. Just like small talk seams appeally. A OO language where everything is an object, it just makes sense, the way the world works is to pass messages (instructions, sentences etc...) between objects (humans, animals, objects etc...)
ONe language I don't want to learn is C++.
I like the quotes on the smalltalk website
"I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind."
- Alan Kay
and my personally favourites
"C++ : an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog"
- unknown
"Claiming Java is easier than C++ is like saying that K2 is shorter than Everest."
- Larry O'Brien (editor, Software Development)
I Am amazed that there is such a holy war about programming languages, particully the language people first learnt was there favourite and all others are programmed as if they were using the first language.
Thanks
D
Sz
Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--__--__--
Message: 10 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com Reply-To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk
--- Andrew Savory a.savory@btinternet.com wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 15:24 -0700, David Freeman wrote:
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
Depends what you're doing. HTML is wonderful as the final dressing before it hits the user's web browser, but sucks for anything other than that. Being obsessive linux hackers, I'd expect us to massively overengineer a solution using XML and a publishing engine (AxKit if we're using Apache/Perl, Cocoon if we're using Java?) so that we can access the site using our browsers, phones, PDAs, sonic screwdrivers, divining rods...
ESR said that you can't call your self a hacker till other hackers call you one, based on the above can I call my self a Hacker yet?
So this would be what owen was saying about PHP on sunday about content and markup being mixed together, Whilst I can see some of these evils, doesn't CSS attempt to help?
Thanks
D
Andrew.
-- All views are my own, who else would want them?
Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--__--__--
Message: 11 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com Reply-To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com Subject: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk
--- Neill Newman neill@entora.co.uk wrote:
Andrew Savory wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL
;) Can I
suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database
system
that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this....
I agree with Brett. He has a good point.If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can
do,
let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92.
MySQL,
um, isn't.
yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! hhmm nice and resilient ;).. Postgress gets my vote...
So we have the holywar about Which language to write it in, now we have a second holy war over which RDBMS we use, couple this with the XML/HTML war and wow!
Can we get Vi vs EMacs in as well?
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is
nice and
quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a
nice
project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to
me but
I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the
evils
of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of
these?
Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... although I have to admit that I like php ;)...
Perl? I never quite got to grips with perl, I have tried but I just don't understand it. What are its pros and cons?
How about SmallTalk as the language? or maybe something even more obscour, like ML or Prolog, will they do it?
Thanks
D
Sz
Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--__--__--
Message: 12 To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com Cc: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Language wars // was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... From: MJ Ray markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 03 May 2001 17:19:48 +0100
David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com writes:
XML has always appeared as a very complex thing which I haven't needed to use for my very simple web site! Can any one recommend a good primer for XML.
Hrm, I can't remember where I learnt about it. Probably from webreference.com or similar. It's just like HTML but with consistency and your own tags, really.
I Am amazed that there is such a holy war about programming languages, particully the language people first learnt was there favourite and all others are programmed as if they were using the first language.
Depending on your world-view and the task at hand, I now firmly believe that either everything is objects or everything is functions. This is miles away from my first language (BASIC) or my second (FORTH), but I tend to watch people and I've seen things that would make your toes curl. I guess others on this list will have seen worse, though.
I don't really get into holy wars about language, though. I just try to avoid engaging with ones I dislike unless absolutely necessary. I have that luxury at the moment. -- MJR
--__--__--
Message: 13 Reply-To: "Mark Wilkinson" mark@wiggis.com From: "Mark Wilkinson" mark@wiggis.com To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com, alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:27:31 +0100 charset="iso-8859-1"
I think it best to program it in raw assembler and store the data on a 1.44 floppy in EBCDIC.
FWIW.
Mark W.
:-D
PS. As per my original email on this. Why do people want to re-invent the wheel? There's a package on freshmeat that could be taken, customised and whacked on a linux box in say... a couple of hours. :-O Am I missing something here? Is the objective a programming exercise or to get a library system running?
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Freeman" david_freeman@rocketmail.com To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:08 PM Subject: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
--- Neill Newman neill@entora.co.uk wrote:
Andrew Savory wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL
;) Can I
suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database
system
that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this....
I agree with Brett. He has a good point.If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can
do,
let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92.
MySQL,
um, isn't.
yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! hhmm nice and resilient ;).. Postgress gets my vote...
So we have the holywar about Which language to write it in, now we have a second holy war over which RDBMS we use, couple this with the XML/HTML war and wow!
Can we get Vi vs EMacs in as well?
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is
nice and
quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a
nice
project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to
me but
I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the
evils
of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of
these?
Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... although I have to admit that I like php ;)...
Perl? I never quite got to grips with perl, I have tried but I just don't understand it. What are its pros and cons?
How about SmallTalk as the language? or maybe something even more obscour, like ML or Prolog, will they do it?
Thanks
D
Sz
Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug@stu.uea.ac.uk http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub!
--__--__--
Message: 14 To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com Cc: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... From: MJ Ray markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk Organization: Cat-killingly bad Date: 03 May 2001 17:30:02 +0100
David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com writes:
So this would be what owen was saying about PHP on sunday about content and markup being mixed together, Whilst I can see some of these evils, doesn't CSS attempt to help?
Oh, many of us will have a go at PHP for that. CSS doesn't really help much, as you still have most of your program code stuffed in a servable document rather than kept right away from your markup. There are ways to remedy it a little, but it's better not to have the problem there in the first place, eh? -- MJR
--__--__--
Message: 15 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:34:08 -0700 (PDT) From: David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com Reply-To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com Subject: Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk
--- Mark Wilkinson mark@wiggis.com wrote:
I think it best to program it in raw assembler and store the data on a 1.44 floppy in EBCDIC.
I take it that in true style this will be 68000 series assembler :o)
/me has learnt z80 assembler and will learn PIC assembler.
FWIW.
Mark W.
:-D
PS. As per my original email on this. Why do people want to re-invent the wheel? There's a package on freshmeat that could be taken, customised and whacked on a linux box in say... a couple of hours. :-O Am I missing something here? Is the objective a programming exercise or to get a library system running?
Shoot this man for being boring :o) you should know all projects start as a debate about features, language and then decide if something else does the job.
Thanks
D
<snip>
Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--__--__--
Message: 16 Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:35:47 -0700 (PDT) From: David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com Reply-To: David_freeman@rocketmail.com Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk
--- MJ Ray markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
David Freeman david_freeman@rocketmail.com writes:
So this would be what owen was saying about PHP on sunday about
content
and markup being mixed together, Whilst I can see some of these
evils,
doesn't CSS attempt to help?
Oh, many of us will have a go at PHP for that. CSS doesn't really help much, as you still have most of your program code stuffed in a servable document rather than kept right away from your markup. There are ways to remedy it a little, but it's better not to have the problem there in the first place, eh? -- MJR
OK then how about ASP? :o)
</fx action="lights blue touch paper and retires to safe distance">
Thanks
D
PS Mark does the above Parse ok?
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Earl Brannigan