I started looking at a few commercial mesh wireless products, which typically retail at around £300-400 for a typical house. I then Googled and discovered a few Linux mesh wireless projects, such as might suit running on a Pi.
Anyone here have any experience of such things?
(The biggest obstacle with the Pi is likely to be the slow Ethernet port but there are faster single board computers around that might work better. Regardless, the Pi might be a good place to start playing.)
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 12:45:30PM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote:
I started looking at a few commercial mesh wireless products, which typically retail at around £300-400 for a typical house. I then Googled and discovered a few Linux mesh wireless projects, such as might suit running on a Pi.
As in wireless for what? Controlling things like the central heating, lights, etc.?
Anyone here have any experience of such things?
(The biggest obstacle with the Pi is likely to be the slow Ethernet port but there are faster single board computers around that might work better. Regardless, the Pi might be a good place to start playing.)
Is a 100Mb/s port *really* a limitation for this sort of thing? What would use lots of bandwidth? ... or do you mean, by 'wireless products' streaming video around the place?
On 10 April 2017 at 13:03, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
As in wireless for what? Controlling things like the central heating, lights, etc.?
No, just providing reliable wifi throughout the house, without dead spots or issues handing over between repeaters.
At the moment, I never use Wifi at home on my mobile because 4G is way more reliable - as well as faster - and I am lucky to have no usage cap on it. But that means I don't have access to anything on my (W)LAN. I'd like to switch to wireless at home but without the penalty for being so rash as to move around while using it! I've tried several repeaters and different wireless routers without success, and the reviews of all the mesh systems seem to suggest that compared with all the issues of normal wireless "it just works".
Also I feel like it might be a skill worth learning.
Is a 100Mb/s port *really* a limitation for this sort of thing? What would use lots of bandwidth? ... or do you mean, by 'wireless products' streaming video around the place?
Well Wireless-N is capable of more than 100Mbps, and my home Internet (Virgin) connection maxes out at close to 200Mbps, so putting in infrastructure that limits it to 100Mbps just feels wrong to start with. But yes, streaming video is one of the uses (from media held on a box at home so not limited by the Internet connection), and of-course that 100Mbps bottleneck would apply not per-user but as a maximum total throughput, so having lots of devices using it is going to see individual throughputs drop substantially.
Interestingly though I've found some suggestions [1] that using a USB3 Gigabit LAN adapter on the Pi (albeit limited to USB2 speeds) can make a big increase.
[1] https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blogs/jeff-geerling/getting-gigabit-networking
Mark
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 01:20:27PM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 10 April 2017 at 13:03, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
As in wireless for what? Controlling things like the central heating, lights, etc.?
No, just providing reliable wifi throughout the house, without dead spots or issues handing over between repeaters.
At the moment, I never use Wifi at home on my mobile because 4G is way more reliable - as well as faster - and I am lucky to have no usage cap on it. But that means I don't have access to anything on my (W)LAN. I'd like to switch to wireless at home but without the penalty for being so rash as to move around while using it! I've tried several repeaters and different wireless routers without success, and the reviews of all the mesh systems seem to suggest that compared with all the issues of normal wireless "it just works".
Also I feel like it might be a skill worth learning.
I see. Well we have a big (6 bedroom) house and it's covered pretty well by two 'standard' wireless routers, though see below.
Is a 100Mb/s port *really* a limitation for this sort of thing? What would use lots of bandwidth? ... or do you mean, by 'wireless products' streaming video around the place?
Well Wireless-N is capable of more than 100Mbps, and my home Internet (Virgin) connection maxes out at close to 200Mbps, so putting in infrastructure that limits it to 100Mbps just feels wrong to start with. But yes, streaming video is one of the uses (from media held on a box at home so not limited by the Internet connection), and of-course that 100Mbps bottleneck would apply not per-user but as a maximum total throughput, so having lots of devices using it is going to see individual throughputs drop substantially.
Hmm, different league from us then, we currently have two ADSL connections which *between them* provide us with about 10Mb/s. 3G/4G is close to non-existent.
I just have wired ethernet all round the place and to the (fairly distant) garage so my backups to the garage run at Gb/s speeds.
On 10 April 2017 at 14:09, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
I see. Well we have a big (6 bedroom) house and it's covered pretty well by two 'standard' wireless routers, though see below.
Ours is 4-bed and I can get wireless almost everywhere, but it's just not reliable upstairs. Where laptops tend to get used it's fine, but those locations are all in the same room as the wifi router or in an adjacent room.
Putting a repeater upstairs meant I always had strong signal but rarely did I get it to actually allow me to do anything.
Hmm, different league from us then, we currently have two ADSL connections which *between them* provide us with about 10Mb/s. 3G/4G is close to non-existent.
We are lucky to have decent options here (and I know how poor it can be across much of the ALUG "catchment area").
I just have wired ethernet all round the place and to the (fairly distant) garage so my backups to the garage run at Gb/s speeds.
Wired would be a big job, although I've considered it. But obviously that's never going to do a lot for my phone :-)
Regardless though, wireless is one of those technologies that's everywhere and mesh wireless is likely to become more common, so a big part of the driving force behind this is to learn more about it. Whether driven by real IoT or just mobiles and stuff like Alexa or Nest, I'm sure that having a reliable home wireless network is going to be more important in 10 years than it is now.
On 10/04/17 14:23, Mark Rogers wrote:
Wired would be a big job, although I've considered it. But obviously that's never going to do a lot for my phone :-)
Run one wire from the router to upstairs, and then have the upstairs wifi running of that cable. Alternatively, get one of those internet over mains jobbies and use that to get the network to upstairs, where you can run the 2nd wifi or access point. I think you can get a combined network over mains & repeater. However, I also think that network over mains has a bad reputation.
However, if you want to play around with mesh, that's moot.
Steve
On 11/04/17 18:06, steve-ALUG@hst.me.uk wrote:
On 10/04/17 14:23, Mark Rogers wrote:
Wired would be a big job, although I've considered it. But obviously that's never going to do a lot for my phone :-)
Run one wire from the router to upstairs, and then have the upstairs wifi running of that cable. Alternatively, get one of those internet over mains jobbies and use that to get the network to upstairs, where you can run the 2nd wifi or access point. I think you can get a combined network over mains & repeater. However, I also think that network over mains has a bad reputation.
We've got TP-Link Powerline stuff all over the house, and it works just fine. As a cheap and effective solution, it can't be beaten.
However, if you want to play around with mesh, that's moot.
Of course!
Cheers, Laurie.
On Wed, 2017-04-12 at 08:34 +0100, Laurie Brown wrote:
On 11/04/17 18:06, steve-ALUG@hst.me.uk wrote:
On 10/04/17 14:23, Mark Rogers wrote:
Wired would be a big job, although I've considered it. But obviously that's never going to do a lot for my phone :-)
Run one wire from the router to upstairs, and then have the upstairs wifi running of that cable. Alternatively, get one of those internet over mains jobbies and use that to get the network to upstairs, where you can run the 2nd wifi or access point. I think you can get a combined network over mains & repeater. However, I also think that network over mains has a bad reputation.
We've got TP-Link Powerline stuff all over the house, and it works just fine. As a cheap and effective solution, it can't be beaten.
I've been playing with Zyxel powerline adaptors. They suck little green toads.
On 12 April 2017 at 09:31, Huge huge@huge.org.uk wrote:
I've been playing with Zyxel powerline adaptors. They suck little green toads.
The ones we used to re-sell were from www.solwise.co.uk and they generally performed pretty well (and got good reviews) compared to the "well known" brands.
I will say that from experience of more than one brand (including Solwise) they sometimes seem to need replacing fairly often (every few years). Maybe newer ones don't have this problem, but I guess that the power supplies inside them are great to start with but get noiser with age.
Environmental issues are another problem (much less so than with wireless though). Finding someone who can lend you them or will take them back if they don't work for you even if they're not actually broken helps (buying online with distance selling regulations support helps here).
For most people, most of the time, they "just work", and compared with wireless they're often a godsend, especially for connecting kit that would naturally be cabled anyway (printers, X-boxes, PCs, etc). As more and more devices are naturally wireless the need to combine any other solution with wireless anyway makes the market for powerline/homeplug devices harder.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:22:15AM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote: [snip]
For most people, most of the time, they "just work", and compared with wireless they're often a godsend, especially for connecting kit that would naturally be cabled anyway (printers, X-boxes, PCs, etc). As more and more devices are naturally wireless the need to combine any other solution with wireless anyway makes the market for powerline/homeplug devices harder.
I think we're very lucky in some ways being out in the sticks. There is absolutely no issue with WiFi spectrum crowding here. I can only see *one* other source of WiFi signal apart from my own routers, it's the BT router in the house opposite.
We don't find having two entirely separate WiFi networks to cover the house any problem. The areas they serve are pretty well defined so when you turn on a laptop (or a tablet) then it picks up the better signal and 'just works'. It's hardly a big chore to have to enter two passwords. You only have to enter the two passwords once and it's done.
On 12 April 2017 at 10:30, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
I think we're very lucky in some ways being out in the sticks.
Lucky in that you have absolutely perfect wifi sharing your <10Mbps broadband :-)
We don't find having two entirely separate WiFi networks to cover the house any problem. The areas they serve are pretty well defined so when you turn on a laptop (or a tablet) then it picks up the better signal and 'just works'. It's hardly a big chore to have to enter two passwords. You only have to enter the two passwords once and it's done.
Absolutely agree that's no chore - and it's not like you can't have the same password for both if you choose to.
My issue when I've tried it is loss of connectivity as the phone hunts between them, due to not having clearly definable zones. In that context 4G works much better, but it feels wrong turning wifi off when I get home! Not to mention that I daresay that unlimited 4G isn't something I can rely on forever (I've gone over 5GB so far this month and that's not unusual).
I'm edging towards trying this approach again though with better hardware (there's been some AP suggestions in this thread but I'm open to other recommendations).
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:50:20AM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 12 April 2017 at 10:30, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
I think we're very lucky in some ways being out in the sticks.
Lucky in that you have absolutely perfect wifi sharing your <10Mbps broadband :-)
I did say "in some ways"! :-)
We don't find having two entirely separate WiFi networks to cover the house any problem. The areas they serve are pretty well defined so when you turn on a laptop (or a tablet) then it picks up the better signal and 'just works'. It's hardly a big chore to have to enter two passwords. You only have to enter the two passwords once and it's done.
Absolutely agree that's no chore - and it's not like you can't have the same password for both if you choose to.
My issue when I've tried it is loss of connectivity as the phone hunts between them, due to not having clearly definable zones. In that context 4G works much better, but it feels wrong turning wifi off when I get home! Not to mention that I daresay that unlimited 4G isn't something I can rely on forever (I've gone over 5GB so far this month and that's not unusual).
Isn't that something wrong with the phone? I've never noticed anything (laptop, tablet, phone) 'hunting' between the two routers. The only problem we have is that when you walk from one side of the house to the other the tablet/phone/laptop stays connected to the WiFi it started with.
On Wed, 2017-04-12 at 11:01 +0100, Chris Green wrote:
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:50:20AM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 12 April 2017 at 10:30, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
I think we're very lucky in some ways being out in the sticks.
Lucky in that you have absolutely perfect wifi sharing your <10Mbps broadband :-)
I did say "in some ways"! :-)
FWIW, we live in the middle of nowhere, have no neighbours, cannot "see" any wifi networks other than our own. And when I measured it on Monday, were getting 58Mbps download.
So it *is* possible to square the circle. :o)
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:22:59AM +0100, Huge wrote:
On Wed, 2017-04-12 at 11:01 +0100, Chris Green wrote:
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:50:20AM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 12 April 2017 at 10:30, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
I think we're very lucky in some ways being out in the sticks.
Lucky in that you have absolutely perfect wifi sharing your <10Mbps broadband :-)
I did say "in some ways"! :-)
FWIW, we live in the middle of nowhere, have no neighbours, cannot "see" any wifi networks other than our own. And when I measured it on Monday, were getting 58Mbps download.
So it *is* possible to square the circle. :o)
We're about to get (i.e. it's ordered and will happen in a day or two's time) FTTC so we should be up in the 20Mb/s plus region soon.
On 12 April 2017 at 11:01, Chris Green cl@isbd.net wrote:
Isn't that something wrong with the phone? I've never noticed anything (laptop, tablet, phone) 'hunting' between the two routers. The only problem we have is that when you walk from one side of the house to the other the tablet/phone/laptop stays connected to the WiFi it started with.
Well it seems to be common to whatever device I pick, but maybe I'm just unlucky. I suspect having a lot of "competing" wifi in the area doesn't help though.
On-site yesterday my phone was generally much better at picking up a reliable wifi signal than anything I was there to configure... (Equally: as soon as I enabled the hotspot on my phone everything I was working with was able to connect to that and get online without problem. The devices were Pi 3's, with or without external antennae, very often within a couple of feet of the Draytek AP-910C access point they were supposed to be connecting to. Generally they would connect easily but timeout after multiple retries trying to get a DHCP lease.)
On 11 April 2017 at 18:06, steve-ALUG@hst.me.uk wrote:
However, I also think that network over mains has a bad reputation.
I have quite a lot of experience of network over mains (my company used to sell it), and generally it works pretty well - certainly when compared with wifi, which is the market it competes in. One issue I've heard with it is how it affects others: a typical UK house has a mains ring, and rings work like antennae broadcasting the signal. Security-wise that's easy to deal with by encrypting (and all devices do this by default as far as I know), however it can mess around with radio ham enthusiasts and therefore isn't particularly liked amongst that group. As I'm not a radio expert I don't know how big a problem it really is (compared with all the other modern radio "noise") though.
As to my own situation: having a cable (or homeplug) to upstairs with a wifi access point there would likely work quite well, although it would (I believe?) then really need to be on a different SSID to work properly. (In a completely unrelated coincidence I spent most of yesterday on site trying to get some devices to reliably connect to a wifi network which comprised multiple access points on one network that really didn't work very well, and that was set up by professionals. It bears out my own experience at home with wifi repeaters and multiple access points and doesn't give me much confidence in success via that route.)
The mesh solutions seem to also allow for the access points to be on cable for improved speed, but work better as a single wifi network. Well that's as much as I've learned from reviews anyway...
However, if you want to play around with mesh, that's moot.
Indeed. Although in the absence of others knowledge to jump start from, I think probably starting with a real "product" as a starting point might be the best (albeit most expensive) way to get started.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 09:03:29AM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote:
As to my own situation: having a cable (or homeplug) to upstairs with a wifi access point there would likely work quite well, although it would (I believe?) then really need to be on a different SSID to work properly. (In a completely unrelated coincidence I spent most of yesterday on site trying to get some devices to reliably connect to a wifi network which comprised multiple access points on one network that really didn't work very well, and that was set up by professionals. It bears out my own experience at home with wifi repeaters and multiple access points and doesn't give me much confidence in success via that route.)
I simply have two WiFi routers with separate SSIDs, passwords, etc. One covers the front of the house and the other the back of the house, both are on a window cill upstairs and coverage through the floor to downstairs seems fine.
I've never really tried the 'repeaters' or 'access points' thing. The two 'good' routers manage to cover our large (as I said, 6 bedrooms) house pretty well. One is a Draytek Vigor 2820n and the other is a Microtik. It's very noticeable that other routers in the same places (I have a BT Home Hub3 and a Fonera modem running too) don't produce anywhere near as good a signal.
The mesh solutions seem to also allow for the access points to be on cable for improved speed, but work better as a single wifi network. Well that's as much as I've learned from reviews anyway...
My two routers are wired.
On Wednesday, 12 April 2017 09:03:29 BST Mark Rogers wrote:
however it can mess around with radio ham enthusiasts and therefore isn't particularly liked amongst that group. As I'm not a radio expert I don't know how big a problem it really is (compared with all the other modern radio "noise") though.
I used it in a stone cottage in Llangollen where wifi struggled, but before we moved in here (Potton) I put Cat6 from office to smart TV and to the workshop out the back where my server will reside. There's a guy in the North Wales LUG who's a radio ham, he used to complain a lot about Ethernet over Power systems.
-- Phil Thane
www.pthane.co.uk phil@pthane.co.uk 01767 449759 07582 750607 Twitter @pthane
On 12/04/17 09:03, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 11 April 2017 at 18:06, steve-ALUG@hst.me.uk wrote:
However, I also think that network over mains has a bad reputation.
I have quite a lot of experience of network over mains (my company used to sell it), and generally it works pretty well - certainly when
[SNIP]
To be clear, I have one "wired" "master" Powerline doo-dah, and the rest are either RJ45 or WAP "slaves" which receive their data from the "master" which is plugged into my network with a physical cable over the house's internal power network.
Each WAP (and I have a couple of "ordinary" WAPs as well) broadcasts the same SSID, use the same password, but use different channels, preserving, as much as possible, "three channels of separation".
Wifi availability wandering around the house and exterior is seamless.
Cheers, Laurie.
On 12 April 2017 at 10:18, Laurie Brown laurie@brownowl.com wrote:
Each WAP (and I have a couple of "ordinary" WAPs as well) broadcasts the same SSID, use the same password, but use different channels, preserving, as much as possible, "three channels of separation".
Wifi availability wandering around the house and exterior is seamless.
I live in an estate where there isn't much choice of unused channels... (I'm sure that mesh wifi must have the same issue though.)
It would probably be easier to set up one wireless network for the entire cul-de-sac than getting something reliable in each house individually!
On 12/04/17 09:03, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 11 April 2017 at 18:06, steve-ALUG@hst.me.uk wrote:
However, I also think that network over mains has a bad reputation.
I have quite a lot of experience of network over mains (my company used to sell it), and generally it works pretty well - certainly when compared with wifi, which is the market it competes in. One issue I've heard with it is how it affects others: a typical UK house has a mains ring, and rings work like antennae broadcasting the signal. Security-wise that's easy to deal with by encrypting (and all devices do this by default as far as I know), however it can mess around with radio ham enthusiasts and therefore isn't particularly liked amongst that group. As I'm not a radio expert I don't know how big a problem it really is (compared with all the other modern radio "noise") though.
I'm not a radio expert either, but I am a fully licensed radio ham. My only personal experience with power line adaptors (PLAs) was a fellow ham who had severe radio noise which we traced to the PLAs in his house. Stories abound about PLAs. It is clear that the good ones are very good and meet all the requirements of EMC (electromagnetic compatibility). Sadly some do not, usually having the RF filters removed to reduce cost. OFCOM have very strict rules about unlicensed RF emissions and if you're unlucky enough to have a bad PLA then you are responsible for fixing it. Of course if nobody is affected or complains then you're in the clear but if you are 'making enough noise' AND refuse to do something about it, then you will get a knock at the door sooner or later. Many OFCOM investigators are also radio hams. Most places have a local amateur radio club and they will usually be happy to offer testing and advice if you have any concerns. Of course it's not just hams who could be affected by a bad PLA. Emergency services and air traffic control also come to mind.
As with so many things in life it's the bad few that tarnish all the rest.
Nev
On 10 April 2017 at 16:41, Bill Hill mail@wbh.org wrote:
Personally, for just covering a house I'd play with a couple of OpenWRT routers and OLSRd https://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/mesh.olsr
Thanks for this; my main router is running OpenWRT so adding a second OpenWRT router makes sense.
What's a good hardware choice for OpenWRT these days? The supported hardware pages are great except they don't make it easy to find something which is currently widely available.
(Actually I've made the switch to the LEDE Project, which looks like it might have more momentum but I'm not sure. Have any of the other OpenWRT users here considered it?)
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 09:00:59AM +0100, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 10 April 2017 at 16:41, Bill Hill mail@wbh.org wrote:
Personally, for just covering a house I'd play with a couple of OpenWRT routers and OLSRd https://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/mesh.olsr
Thanks for this; my main router is running OpenWRT so adding a second OpenWRT router makes sense.
What's a good hardware choice for OpenWRT these days? The supported hardware pages are great except they don't make it easy to find something which is currently widely available.
(Actually I've made the switch to the LEDE Project, which looks like it might have more momentum but I'm not sure. Have any of the other OpenWRT users here considered it?)
I've been through much of the above too, and finally decided that OpenWRT/LEDE isn't really very helpful.
My major issue is that there seems to be no attempt to update the OpenWRT version for any particular hardware once there is a working version. So, once you have installed a version then that's it. I have a Mikrotik RB2011 running OpenWrt and it's functional but I have to say that's about it. I was aimimg to use it as my main home router with load balancing etc. but it was hard enough simply to get OpenWrt installed so doing clever things felt a bridge too far.
The Mikrotik RB2011 is for sale now (on eBay) if anyone is interested.
On 13/04/2017 09:00, Mark Rogers wrote:
On 10 April 2017 at 16:41, Bill Hill mail@wbh.org wrote:
Personally, for just covering a house I'd play with a couple of OpenWRT routers and OLSRd https://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/mesh.olsr
Thanks for this; my main router is running OpenWRT so adding a second OpenWRT router makes sense.
What's a good hardware choice for OpenWRT these days? The supported hardware pages are great except they don't make it easy to find something which is currently widely available.
(Actually I've made the switch to the LEDE Project, which looks like it might have more momentum but I'm not sure. Have any of the other OpenWRT users here considered it?)
I've set up a TPlink WR743 router as a reverse bridge - it connects to the house WiFi and provides networking for various wired devices, the printer, VoIP phone and a NAS. Why the WR743? It was what I had lying around. As for what's good hardware for OpenWRT, well I wish I knew. I've been wanting to get a TPlink Archer C5. Trouble is the V1 works with OpenWRT, the V2 doesn't. I generally prototype things like OpenVPN to a RaspberryPi running OpenWRT and then move to the real router. Easier to wipe a SD card than solder in JTAG headers! I'm watching LEDE, but haven't jumped ship, yet.
On 13 April 2017 at 13:36, Bill Hill mail@wbh.org wrote:
I generally prototype things like OpenVPN to a RaspberryPi running OpenWRT and then move to the real router. Easier to wipe a SD card than solder in JTAG headers!
How well does this work? I'm thinking that a Pi just has a single (slow) Ethernet port, where it presumably needs at least 2 to be a router? Obviously there are usb-ethernet options to add ports but I feel like I may be missing a trick?
I'm watching LEDE, but haven't jumped ship, yet.
It's not helped by the fact that LEDE looks like it's had a lot more development recently, but most of that is just rebranding and it's hard to see where the real momentum is.
I think the lack of clear documentation as to what current hardware works well makes it hard to adopt (although I can't see a good way to fix that particular problem).
On 13 April 2017 at 14:09, Mark Rogers mark@more-solutions.co.uk wrote:
I think the lack of clear documentation as to what current hardware works well makes it hard to adopt (although I can't see a good way to fix that particular problem).
I found this review of current models: https://hobgear.com/best-openwrt-lede-routers/
Any thoughts?
I'm edging towards the AC3200 just for future-proofing; the warnings on the page about firmware incompatibility aren't born out by the openwrt/lede pages as far as I can tell and I can use stock firmware to start with anyway. Of-course it's far from cheap and gets me into mesh territory if I need two of them, but I'm tired of buying cheaper models that don't quite have the oomph.
On 13 April 2017 at 14:35, Mark Rogers mark@more-solutions.co.uk wrote:
I'm edging towards the AC3200 just for future-proofing
OK, I went down this route (Linksys WRT3200ACM). testing with stock firmware it didn't improve anything, and in fact I found that my Amazon Echo in the kitchen (not all that far from the router) kept dropping out when it had never had an issue with my old TP-Link router. Digging deeper, forum posts weren't all that positive about the WRT3200ACM's reliability in general and I returned it.
One thing I have noticed but not got my head around is that lots of manufacturers have substantially different models with very similar names (Google for AC3200 and see how many models come up, try the same for other similar designations). But I've not been able to find anything that tells me what "AC3200" (or sometimes just the 3200 bit) actually means?
-
Bill Hill -
Chris Green -
Huge -
Laurie Brown -
Mark Rogers -
Nev Young -
Phil Thane -
steve-ALUG＠hst.me.uk