Criticising other groups
Would the author of http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?ComparisonInEastAnglia like to at least add their name to the page, please? I'd like it if someone could verify the claims about NPCUG and add other groups. I suspect the jibe under "piracy" is grossly unfair. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
On Sunday 11 January 2004 12:58, MJ Ray wrote:
Would the author of http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?ComparisonInEastAnglia like to at least add their name to the page, please? I'd like it if someone could verify the claims about NPCUG and add other groups. I suspect the jibe under "piracy" is grossly unfair.
As much as I hate censorship, I think this page should be removed. Regardless of whether the claims made about NPCUG are true or not (I don't know) Making such claims on our Website strikes me as a little childish and in my opinion refelects badly on ALUG itself.
On Sunday 11 January 2004 18:23, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Sunday 11 January 2004 12:58, MJ Ray wrote:
Would the author of http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?ComparisonInEastAnglia like to at least add their name to the page, please? I'd like it if someone could verify the claims about NPCUG and add other groups. I suspect the jibe under "piracy" is grossly unfair.
As much as I hate censorship, I think this page should be removed. Regardless of whether the claims made about NPCUG are true or not (I don't know) Making such claims on our Website strikes me as a little childish and in my opinion refelects badly on ALUG itself.
As a member of both groups I've passed the URL of the page to the NPCUG guys and will provide any feedback I receive from them. Some personal comment on the page itself: NPCUG is a group with a formal constitution, unlike the looser association of ALUG. We meet monthly at the British Legion Club and don't charge on the door; the annual subs go mainly to paying for the room (that's why we don't allow people to come in freely). The group owns a couple of computers and about 7 monitors, which are set up for each meeting to provide a view for the 20-30 people who attend. The membership is somewhat older than ALUG, with a high proportion of retired people. Few are computer professionals. Although most people run Windows there is an interest in Linux - we've had a couple of talks on the subject - and several members run Linux experimentally. We don't have an email list because nobody in the group knows how to set one up. The level of computer knowledge is well below that of ALUG; new members are often complete novices. There's generally no need to bring a computer to meetings because there's already one set up. I don't think any of the ALUG comment page is bad, except for the bit about the parrot, which as a joke is a bit of a failure, rather down at the Ken Dodd level. Piracy is not encouraged; the group goes to some trouble to put together a relevant freeware CD-ROM and demonstrates Open Source products when there's no obviously better commercial product. --- GT
Hi Graham
As a member of both groups I've passed the URL of the page to the NPCUG guys and will provide any feedback I receive from them.
I hope you made it very clear that this page is the uninformed opinion of one person, posting anonymously, and does not reflect the general opinion of ALUG members? Regards Syd
On Sunday 11 January 2004 20:18, Syd Hancock wrote:
Hi Graham
As a member of both groups I've passed the URL of the page to the NPCUG guys and will provide any feedback I receive from them.
I hope you made it very clear that this page is the uninformed opinion of one person, posting anonymously, and does not reflect the general opinion of ALUG members?
Regards Syd
I believe I did. NPCUG folks have a tendency to be easily alarmed and I'm trying to inform without creating a panic. -- GT
On Sunday 11 Jan 2004 7:17 pm, Graham Trott wrote:
On Sunday 11 January 2004 18:23, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Sunday 11 January 2004 12:58, MJ Ray wrote:
Would the author of http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?ComparisonInEastAnglia like to at least add their name to the page, please? I'd like it if someone could verify the claims about NPCUG and add other groups. I suspect the jibe under "piracy" is grossly unfair.
As much as I hate censorship, I think this page should be removed. Regardless of whether the claims made about NPCUG are true or not (I don't know) Making such claims on our Website strikes me as a little childish and in my opinion refelects badly on ALUG itself.
As a member of both groups I've passed the URL of the page to the NPCUG guys and will provide any feedback I receive from them. Some personal comment on the page itself:
NPCUG is a group with a formal constitution, unlike the looser association of ALUG. We meet monthly at the British Legion Club and don't charge on the door; the annual subs go mainly to paying for the room (that's why we don't allow people to come in freely). The group owns a couple of computers and about 7 monitors, which are set up for each meeting to provide a view for the 20-30 people who attend.
The membership is somewhat older than ALUG, with a high proportion of retired people. Few are computer professionals. Although most people run Windows there is an interest in Linux - we've had a couple of talks on the subject - and several members run Linux experimentally.
We don't have an email list because nobody in the group knows how to set one up. The level of computer knowledge is well below that of ALUG; new members are often complete novices. There's generally no need to bring a computer to meetings because there's already one set up.
I don't think any of the ALUG comment page is bad, except for the bit about the parrot, which as a joke is a bit of a failure, rather down at the Ken Dodd level. Piracy is not encouraged; the group goes to some trouble to put together a relevant freeware CD-ROM and demonstrates Open Source products when there's no obviously better commercial product.
--- GT
Personaly I am at loss to understand why the comments were posted to the alug site. The two groups have different aims for different people achieved in different ways so no surprise they are different. To my mind the remarks are at best pointless and at worst detrimental to alug. I know we are not a democracy but I vote for their deletion. <OT> matbe we should rename the group AND - Alug's Not a Democracy??? </OT> Ian
On Sunday 11 Jan 2004 6:23 pm, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Sunday 11 January 2004 12:58, MJ Ray wrote:
Would the author of http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?ComparisonInEastAnglia like to at least add their name to the page, please? I'd like it if someone could verify the claims about NPCUG and add other groups. I suspect the jibe under "piracy" is grossly unfair.
As much as I hate censorship, I think this page should be removed. Regardless of whether the claims made about NPCUG are true or not (I don't know) Making such claims on our Website strikes me as a little childish and in my opinion refelects badly on ALUG itself.
I agree completely. It is neither useful, informative nor appropriate. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions - that is what a personal website is for, not a site representing a group. I request that it be removed - or at least not publicly linked to - as quickly as possible before any harm is done to our reputation. The fact that it is anonymous is, at best, cowardly and is, IMHO, another valid reason to remove it, given its content. At worst - is ALUG being set up: we can be accused of either hostility to other groups (if kept public) or censorship (if removed). Syd
On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 08:16:17PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
I request that it be removed - or at least not publicly linked to - as quickly as possible before any harm is done to our reputation.
Agreed, I think it should go.
The fact that it is anonymous is, at best, cowardly and is, IMHO, another valid reason to remove it, given its content.
At worst - is ALUG being set up: we can be accused of either hostility to other groups (if kept public) or censorship (if removed).
Doesn't matter, it doesn't seem to be something that the majority of people in Alug will approve of. If the author can't find somewhere else to host this then I am sure we can work out for it to be hosted elsewhere which isn't on the Alug site. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Sunday 11 Jan 2004 11:22 pm, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 08:16:17PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
I request that it be removed - or at least not publicly linked to - as quickly as possible before any harm is done to our reputation.
Agreed, I think it should go.
I vote it goes too. This is not what ALUG is about at all. I'm all for freedom be it software, beer or speech but the website has to reflect the majority position of alug members. We are a self help group primarily and IMHO this is not a helpful page. Cheers, BJ
On 2004-01-11 23:22:31 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 08:16:17PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
I request that it be removed - or at least not publicly linked to - as quickly as possible before any harm is done to our reputation. Agreed, I think it should go.
Why are people posting "I request this page be removed"? Anyone in the group has the power to do that. Click "EditText" at the bottom of the page. I promise not to restore it from the backups. I think the basic idea of listing other EA user groups might be worth keeping, even if this page goes. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 12:04:10AM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2004-01-11 23:22:31 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 08:16:17PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
I request that it be removed - or at least not publicly linked to - as quickly as possible before any harm is done to our reputation. Agreed, I think it should go.
Why are people posting "I request this page be removed"? Anyone in the group has the power to do that. Click "EditText" at the bottom of the page. I promise not to restore it from the backups. I think the basic idea of listing other EA user groups might be worth keeping, even if this page goes.
I think people are requesting so that their opinion is known, my first instinct was to pretty much remove it but I think it could be worthwhile to keep the page up for a bit longer so everyone can see what it says. This is not censorship ;) if the page is still there this evening it will get removed. I do agree about listing other EA computer user groups being worthwhile. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Monday 12 January 2004 08:50, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 12:04:10AM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2004-01-11 23:22:31 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Sun, Jan 11, 2004 at 08:16:17PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
I request that it be removed - or at least not publicly linked to - as quickly as possible before any harm is done to our reputation.
Agreed, I think it should go.
Without wishing to overly labour the subject, below is the response of the NPCUG secretary after seeing the page in question. This was written before the recent correspondence here appeared, and there remains no bad feeling on that side. It is an agreed view that both groups serve useful but different purposes and that each can benefit from the presence of the other. Most of the attendees at NPCUG evenings would be overwhelmed by the level of specialist knowledge evident at ALUG meetings, and ALUG would be unable to handle the number of members that usually attend NPCUG meetings without some kind of formal organisation. My personal opinion is that each group should acknowledge the useful function provided by the other, possibly with some kind of link on their respective web sites. The page under discussion has its place once the controversial material has been edited out, though I'm not sure I feel able to do the necessary editing myself. (Does anyone want me to try?) There are certainly enough users of or dabblers in Linux at NPCUG for a link to ALUG to be worthwhile, and many people at ALUG will know someone who doesn't (currently) want Linux but who nevertheless would like to belong to a computer group, even one mainly populated by Windows users. -- GT _______________________________________________ Comment by NPCUG follows: _______________________________________________ 1. NPCUG cannot possibly be compared to a group such as ALUG because we exist for totally differing reasons - ALUG is for specialists whilst NPCUG is designed to be for a wide ranging group of people from novices to semi-experts - in effect we are promoting computer usage within the community by helping people with less knowledge benefit from those that have. 2. We do actively encourage members to bring their own PC's and not only that we openly state that we are pleased to assist them at Group meetings with any problems. 3. We charge a membership fee not only to pay for our accommodation but also to enable us to provide facilities (equipment etc) to benefit the membership as a whole. 4. We will very shortly have internet usage at group meeetings. 5. We do have a presence on the Internet through our own website plus a Blog facility to enable all our members to communicate with one another if they wish. 6. Why move around venues if the members are quite happy in attending the one we have - after all they don't have to find out where they have got to go each month. 7. Discussion is not only encouraged 'late night' - members frequently ask questions throughout a presentation and we also have problem solving evenings regularly. _______________________________________________
On 2004-01-12 10:06:13 +0000 Graham Trott <gt@pobox.com> forwarded:
1. NPCUG cannot possibly be compared to a group such as ALUG because we exist for totally differing reasons - ALUG is for specialists whilst NPCUG is designed to be for a wide ranging group of people from novices to semi-experts - in effect we are promoting computer usage within the community by helping people with less knowledge benefit from those that have.
The main reason that I didn't edit the page is because I've never been to an NPCUG meeting (despite trying), so I don't really know what they do. I'm a bit puzzled why this NPCUG person is telling us what ALUG does. Has the person writing this ever been to an ALUG meeting? They're saying "ALUG is for specialists" which is wrong IMO. We're for a wide range of people from novices to experts. There is not any competency exam to pass to join. We just happen to have quite a few specialists around, too. It all helps with transferring knowledge.
6. Why move around venues if the members are quite happy in attending the one we have - after all they don't have to find out where they have got to go each month.
ALUG moves around in order to serve a larger area properly. Some members seldom travel from Cambridgeshire to Norwich and vice-versa. Part of the reason the group doesn't split (IMO) is that it would suck a lot more time up without much benefit. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
participants (7)
-
adam＠thebowery.co.uk -
Graham Trott -
Ian Bell -
John Woodard -
MJ Ray -
Syd Hancock -
Wayne Stallwood