I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
Cheers in anticipation
Rick
ps are all ALUGS list messages logged somewhere? LUGs i have been a part of in the past have kept a searchable archive of messages, which has been very useful in looking up past messages for info.
_________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo
Y'know, I signed up with Wanadoo a couple of months ago and, despite a few teething problems (they forgot to send me a modem, but then made up for it by sending me two! Though I decided it was crap and picked up a half-decent router from OSB) I've received absolutely flawless service. The speed is consistently very close to the advertised half Mbps and it's only £18 or summat a month.
Alright they're going to cap traffic to 2Gb/mo at some point but I only seem to be using about 1.5Gb in total anyway. I notice also that they've just upped the speed so all packages (for the same price) now have 1Mb pipes. Meh, I have to pay £20 to upgrade. You're just in time though.
I suppose other people's mileage may vary with them.
The one caveat is that their support lines are f0rking useless. Everything was easy enough to set up though so I had no need to speak to "technical" support.
Ricky Bruce wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds.
On 8/10/2004, "Ricky Bruce" ricky_bruce@hotmail.com wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
Zen - http://www.zen.co.uk/ - service and support both are excellent. I've had discussions with their support over details in Shorewall logs for example, so they're happy with Linux. They're pretty good about keeping their network clean too, I often see scans from them looking for open-relays and the like.
Matt
On 8 Oct 2004, at 13:11, Ricky Bruce wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
Take a look at plusnet (http://www.plus.net). I am currently on nildram and sent the order to change to plusnet soon. Only £21.99 and you get a static IP etc. Mind you, they offer a cool 'control panel' on the members login. Possibly one of the best I have seen so far :)
Craig
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 14:19:17 +0100 Craig c@wizball.co.uk wrote:
On 8 Oct 2004, at 13:11, Ricky Bruce wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
Take a look at plusnet (http://www.plus.net). I am currently on nildram and sent the order to change to plusnet soon. Only £21.99 and you get a static IP etc. Mind you, they offer a cool 'control panel' on the members login. Possibly one of the best I have seen so far :)
Interesting comment. I'm on Nildram myself, and have a customer on Plusnet. I rarely use the Nildram web site for anything as I have my own server with webmail supporting my various domains, etc., but the webmail is perfectly usable and I've set the reverse resolution of my static IP to sit with one of my own domains. The service in terms of the connection hasn't given me any problems personally, although my parents managed to get caught by the BT firmware upgrades that took out a load of ADSL units with a particular chipset for a while - and Nildram was the first to get upgraded unfortunately :-(
On the Plusnet side I have found their tech support largely useless having transferred an account in from VCISP when they went under. The domain associated with the account got left behind and transfered to another company that I had to track and arrange to get transferred back to where it was (one outage as they moved their nameservers and updated the record), then once transferred in they forgot to renew the domain and caused a second outage. I'm having problems downloading mail over around 3M using fetchmail (although this could easily be the Red Hat install causing this). Their web panel used to be fairly functional, but the main thing I've had to use is the webmail section which they have just 'upgraded' from basic but perfectly functional to pretty but largely unusable! Admittedly I'm connected in through a different ISP, but that's the point of webmail access isn't it? It is blindingly slow (even with broadband) and when I tried the IE only version it got even slower.
The ISP I've had best technical support from has been Fastnet who are based in Brighton/Hove somewhere and use BSD extensively - I've even considered transferring my connection, but I'm not having any real problems so there doesn't seem much point!
On 2004-10-08 13:11:44 +0100 Ricky Bruce ricky_bruce@hotmail.com wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. [...]
At the moment, I've had good experience with Zen. I plan to move to UKFSN.org (for obvious reasons). Pipex are distinctly average and the connection has been poor for the last few months.
ps are all ALUGS list messages logged somewhere? [...]
The answer was added to your email:
Ricky Bruce wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Ian
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:30:23 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Hmm, they only seem to offer dynamic IP or a block of 8 (6 usable?)
The only trouble I've had with Eclipse.net.uk on ADSL is the difficulty of getting through to a technical person instead of an answer machine after 8pm. I have only had ADSL for the past 5 months, but the connection has noticibly gone down twice in that time. Weirdly on both occassions the modem reconnected after being prodded, but it would receive a dynamic IP which only let me traceroute one hop away.
I hope the take over of Eclipse by Kingston (upon-Hull) Communications this month doesn't rock the boat the wrong way!
Tim.
Tim Green wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:30:23 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Hmm, they only seem to offer dynamic IP or a block of 8 (6 usable?)
Is that a problem?
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 14:06:21 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
Tim Green wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:30:23 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Hmm, they only seem to offer dynamic IP or a block of 8 (6 usable?)
Is that a problem?
I feel I only need 1 static IP address. Why would I need more for home use?
Tim.
Tim Green wrote:
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 14:06:21 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
Tim Green wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:30:23 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Hmm, they only seem to offer dynamic IP or a block of 8 (6 usable?)
Is that a problem?
I feel I only need 1 static IP address. Why would I need more for home use?
Tim.
Depends. I don't know why do you need a static address at all.
Ian
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 03:08:47PM +0100, Ian bell wrote:
Tim Green wrote:
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 14:06:21 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
Tim Green wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:30:23 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Hmm, they only seem to offer dynamic IP or a block of 8 (6 usable?)
Is that a problem?
I feel I only need 1 static IP address. Why would I need more for home use?
Depends. I don't know why do you need a static address at all.
It can be handy for connecting to your machine remotely or playing about with internet accessible services on it - eg hosting your own mail or website.
With dialup dynamic IPs make more sense as in general there are less dial in ports than users, but broadband is treated by many more people as always on, so you don't reduce your IP address usage by using dynamic addressing.
J.
Jonathan McDowell wrote:
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 03:08:47PM +0100, Ian bell wrote:
Tim Green wrote:
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 14:06:21 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
Tim Green wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:30:23 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Hmm, they only seem to offer dynamic IP or a block of 8 (6 usable?)
Is that a problem?
I feel I only need 1 static IP address. Why would I need more for home use?
Depends. I don't know why do you need a static address at all.
It can be handy for connecting to your machine remotely or playing about with internet accessible services on it - eg hosting your own mail or website.
The remote access is the one I had missed. Hard to do without a static IP.
With dialup dynamic IPs make more sense as in general there are less dial in ports than users, but broadband is treated by many more people as always on, so you don't reduce your IP address usage by using dynamic addressing.
I think the jury is still out on that one. ISTR Jason Clifford who operates ukfsn.org saying he was surprised how many ADSL users still switch off their PCs every day (I know I do for one).
Ian
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 08:50:44PM +0100, Ian bell wrote:
Jonathan McDowell wrote:
With dialup dynamic IPs make more sense as in general there are less dial in ports than users, but broadband is treated by many more people as always on, so you don't reduce your IP address usage by using dynamic addressing.
I think the jury is still out on that one. ISTR Jason Clifford who operates ukfsn.org saying he was surprised how many ADSL users still switch off their PCs every day (I know I do for one).
Oh, sure, lots of people do (we have a customer who seems to connect up on their ADSL to pick up email and then disconnect within less than 5 minutes and do this regularly throughout the day), but you need to have enough IPs assigned so that if everyone connected you'd be ok - with dialup you're limited by the number of lines you have, which is normally less than the number of users, whereas with ADSL all your users can technically connect at once.
J.
The message 20041009220731.GR7254@earth.li from Jonathan McDowell noodles@earth.li contains these words:
<disconnecting the box from ADSL>
Oh, sure, lots of people do (we have a customer who seems to connect up on their ADSL to pick up email and then disconnect within less than 5 minutes and do this regularly throughout the day),
As would I - though if I did have ADSL I might spend longer periods connected!
With the number of port scans you get while online I'd be loath to leave a box sitting there as a target for the newest cleverest device to ooze in. On Friday I began loading Win 2000 (sorry!) on a pre-loved HDD at around midday.
At 02.00-ish on Saturday, the installation hung at the last lap while removing temp files. This on my fastest machine - a 450 MHz monster. I would not want to have regularly - or even again - to do that (even successfully) because I was one of the first to be hacked by some useless w***** with a twisted aim in life.
Right. A bit of mental therapy now. Debian only took an afternoon to load on the same machine, and that was with a lot of waiting for someone to come and <metaphor> hold my hand </metaphor> when it was standing by for further instructions.
For those who justifiably may be puzzled, I beta test my ISP's internet software, and it's written to run in Windows. I have a caddy in the machine and four trays for it.
<serious question> I have debian in one tray, will have Win 98SE in another, and Win 2000 in the third. Knoppix will run from CD.
(Bearing in mind that I have no intention of *EVER* loading XP), available to load I have CP/M, DOS 6.22, Win 3.11 and OS2. I have very old Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake, Mini-Linux distros, and I have a hankering to try PetrOS. I can't bear to have a fiver's worth of tray in the 'Come In Handy Even If I Never Use It' box.
Is there any point in having a different Linux distro, when one has Debian (and Knoppix) available? Any other (constructive) suggestions?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:25:14 +0100, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
The message 20041009220731.GR7254@earth.li from Jonathan McDowell noodles@earth.li contains these words:
<disconnecting the box from ADSL>
Oh, sure, lots of people do (we have a customer who seems to connect up on their ADSL to pick up email and then disconnect within less than 5 minutes and do this regularly throughout the day),
As would I - though if I did have ADSL I might spend longer periods connected!
With the number of port scans you get while online I'd be loath to leave a box sitting there as a target for the newest cleverest device to ooze in. On Friday I began loading Win 2000 (sorry!) on a pre-loved HDD at around midday.
At 02.00-ish on Saturday, the installation hung at the last lap while removing temp files. This on my fastest machine - a 450 MHz monster. I would not want to have regularly - or even again - to do that (even successfully) because I was one of the first to be hacked by some useless w***** with a twisted aim in life.
The half life of a virgin Windows PC on the Internet is under 30 minutes now. Your ADSL modem does have a built-in NAT firewall to at least protect you from port scanning, doesn't it?
(Bearing in mind that I have no intention of *EVER* loading XP),
Shame - with SP2 it's not too bad now. You can turn the theme back to that classic Win2000 style too if the primary colours hurt your eyes.
Is there any point in having a different Linux distro, when one has Debian (and Knoppix) available?
Yes, it is worth trying different distributions because they all install different things by default. Hopefully the matter of configuration will have lots of common elements between them!
On Sunday 10 October 2004 11:55 am, Tim Green wrote:.
The half life of a virgin Windows PC on the Internet is under 30 minutes now. Your ADSL modem does have a built-in NAT firewall to at least protect you from port scanning, doesn't it?
Sadly so true, we performed some tests to this extent a few months ago
(Bearing in mind that I have no intention of *EVER* loading XP),
Shame - with SP2 it's not too bad now. You can turn the theme back to that classic Win2000 style too if the primary colours hurt your eyes.
Ahh but XP on a 450Mhz machine is only barely useable. If you max out the RAM and turn off all the effects you may just be able to live with it but it's still not very pleasant. My girlfriend has a small Sharp TFT/PC combined thing downstars that only has a 600Mhz Celeron, that also only runs 2000 well and even then only when I upgraded the ram to 256.
The message 200410101336.01354.ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com from Wayne Stallwood ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com contains these words:
Shame - with SP2 it's not too bad now. You can turn the theme back to that classic Win2000 style too if the primary colours hurt your eyes.
Ahh but XP on a 450Mhz machine is only barely useable. If you max out the RAM and turn off all the effects you may just be able to live with it but it's still not very pleasant. My girlfriend has a small Sharp TFT/PC combined thing downstars that only has a 600Mhz Celeron, that also only runs 2000 well and even then only when I upgraded the ram to 256.
Hum - I used to run 2000 on that old Apricot all-SCSI server over there <----, and that has twin 90 MHz co-processors. It really wasn't that much slower than Win 98 on a 233 MHz box.
At least I can upgrade the 450 a bit - when I bought the bits I made sure that I wouldn't be stuck with that as a max speed, though I don't know how fast it can be persuaded to pedal.
But, it does only have 128 MB RAM.
On Sunday 10 October 2004 2:17 pm, Anthony Anson wrote:
Hum - I used to run 2000 on that old Apricot all-SCSI server over there <----, and that has twin 90 MHz co-processors. It really wasn't that much slower than Win 98 on a 233 MHz box.
I think that maybe you are a far more patient man than I :-)
The message 200410101721.01664.ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com from Wayne Stallwood ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com contains these words:
On Sunday 10 October 2004 2:17 pm, Anthony Anson wrote:
Hum - I used to run 2000 on that old Apricot all-SCSI server over there <----, and that has twin 90 MHz co-processors. It really wasn't that much slower than Win 98 on a 233 MHz box.
I think that maybe you are a far more patient man than I :-)
I suppose that depends on whether you have a meal to cook while it loads, or not...
The message 548741004101003555846b378@mail.gmail.com from Tim Green timothy.j.green@gmail.com contains these words:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:25:14 +0100, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
The message 20041009220731.GR7254@earth.li from Jonathan McDowell noodles@earth.li contains these words:
<disconnecting the box from ADSL>
Oh, sure, lots of people do (we have a customer who seems to connect up on their ADSL to pick up email and then disconnect within less than 5 minutes and do this regularly throughout the day),
As would I - though if I did have ADSL I might spend longer periods connected!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
With the number of port scans you get while online I'd be loath to leave a box sitting there as a target for the newest cleverest device to ooze in. On Friday I began loading Win 2000 (sorry!) on a pre-loved HDD at around midday.
At 02.00-ish on Saturday, the installation hung at the last lap while removing temp files. This on my fastest machine - a 450 MHz monster. I would not want to have regularly - or even again - to do that (even successfully) because I was one of the first to be hacked by some useless w***** with a twisted aim in life.
The half life of a virgin Windows PC on the Internet is under 30 minutes now. Your ADSL modem does have a built-in NAT firewall to at least protect you from port scanning, doesn't it?
I refer the honourable gentleman to my statement /\ up there.
(Bearing in mind that I have no intention of *EVER* loading XP),
Shame - with SP2 it's not too bad now. You can turn the theme back to that classic Win2000 style too if the primary colours hurt your eyes.
Applying SP2 seems to be the genesis of a lot of people's prombles, if the pleas for help in Zetnet's support groups is anything to go by. XP is too big (well, what Windows version isn't?) - my first PC did most of what I want to do now (but not so fast), and that ran at 25 MHz, had a 40 MB HDD (and that was a big drive for the time), 4 MB RAM and a 5Œ" floppy drive. That's what drew me to Linux. (Oh, I forgot to mention my ancient distro of Linux FT)
I'm only loading Win 2000 as a testbed for ZIMACS. Everything I need to do in Windows ATM I can do in Win 98.
Is there any point in having a different Linux distro, when one has Debian (and Knoppix) available?
Yes, it is worth trying different distributions because they all install different things by default. Hopefully the matter of configuration will have lots of common elements between them!
But-but-but-but - can't you run most of those different things from (say) Debian? (Maybe with a bit of tweaking.)
And, what sort of 'things' have you in mind? My Debian release (with apps) came on seven CDs: is there anything else I really *NEED*, bearing in mind that I never play games on PC, and all I use it for is the internet (including web-page molishing), as a sooper-dooper word-processor and DTP tool, for graphics, and, and, and, and, well, that's just about it.
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:27:55 +0100, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
The message 548741004101003555846b378@mail.gmail.com from Tim Green timothy.j.green@gmail.com contains these words:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 09:25:14 +0100, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
The message 20041009220731.GR7254@earth.li from Jonathan McDowell noodles@earth.li contains these words:
<disconnecting the box from ADSL>
Oh, sure, lots of people do (we have a customer who seems to connect up on their ADSL to pick up email and then disconnect within less than 5 minutes and do this regularly throughout the day),
As would I - though if I did have ADSL I might spend longer periods connected!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
With the number of port scans you get while online I'd be loath to leave a box sitting there as a target for the newest cleverest device to ooze in. On Friday I began loading Win 2000 (sorry!) on a pre-loved HDD at around midday.
At 02.00-ish on Saturday, the installation hung at the last lap while removing temp files. This on my fastest machine - a 450 MHz monster. I would not want to have regularly - or even again - to do that (even successfully) because I was one of the first to be hacked by some useless w***** with a twisted aim in life.
The half life of a virgin Windows PC on the Internet is under 30 minutes now. Your ADSL modem does have a built-in NAT firewall to at least protect you from port scanning, doesn't it?
I refer the honourable gentleman to my statement /\ up there.
I used the phrase "half life" because, like radioactive decay, this is a calculated statistic. Even disconnecting after 5 minutes might be 299 seconds too late after a nasty has wormed its way into your computer.
I would say a NATing router is essential for the home user, and most offices too. While Stelios Bounanos misses the free, easy and open days of the Internet, unfortunately the rise of Windows over the past 14 years has left gapping security holes in users' Internet connections that ne'er-do-wells have been taking advantage.
Of course just having a NATing routing shouldn't make one complacent, and nor has the Unix arena has been completely clean - anyone remember first hand the first Sendmail worm, or the Lovebug email worm?
Yes, it is worth trying different distributions because they all install different things by default. Hopefully the matter of configuration will have lots of common elements between them!
But-but-but-but - can't you run most of those different things from (say) Debian? (Maybe with a bit of tweaking.)
And, what sort of 'things' have you in mind? My Debian release (with apps) came on seven CDs: is there anything else I really *NEED*, bearing in mind that I never play games on PC, and all I use it for is the internet (including web-page molishing), as a sooper-dooper word-processor and DTP tool, for graphics, and, and, and, and, well, that's just about it.
Many (all?) distributions make changes to the basic programs included. These might be bug fixes or configurations, or back ported features from newer versions. Which leads on to asking which versions of distributions and packages do you want to maintain?
Tim.
The message 548741004101007104e837c55@mail.gmail.com from Tim Green timothy.j.green@gmail.com contains these words:
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:27:55 +0100, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
As would I - though if I did have ADSL I might spend longer periods connected!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I refer the honourable gentleman to my statement /\ up there.
I used the phrase "half life" because, like radioactive decay, this is a calculated statistic. Even disconnecting after 5 minutes might be 299 seconds too late after a nasty has wormed its way into your computer.
I would say a NATing router is essential for the home user, and most offices too. While Stelios Bounanos misses the free, easy and open days of the Internet, unfortunately the rise of Windows over the past 14 years has left gapping security holes in users' Internet connections that ne'er-do-wells have been taking advantage.
But-but-but - - - I haven't *GOT* ADSL...
Of course just having a NATing routing shouldn't make one complacent, and nor has the Unix arena has been completely clean - anyone remember first hand the first Sendmail worm, or the Lovebug email worm?
I shall dispense with complacency if I get ADSL - presently the option isn't there. I've been on the net now for eight years and never <touch wood> contracted a virus, worm or trojan. Nor have I a firewall or AV program.
How do I know? I have had a trial of F-prot and done scans, and run Spybot S&D, and Adaware. Mind you, I don't often visit websites unless I know it's safe to do so, and the mail and newsreading software I use makes it virtually impossible for the sensible person to acquire an infection. Indeed, I can open and read any mail item with impunity, however many nasties it may contain.
Yes, it is worth trying different distributions because they all install different things by default. Hopefully the matter of configuration will have lots of common elements between them!
But-but-but-but - can't you run most of those different things from (say) Debian? (Maybe with a bit of tweaking.)
And, what sort of 'things' have you in mind? My Debian release (with apps) came on seven CDs: is there anything else I really *NEED*, bearing in mind that I never play games on PC, and all I use it for is the internet (including web-page molishing), as a sooper-dooper word-processor and DTP tool, for graphics, and, and, and, and, well, that's just about it.
Many (all?) distributions make changes to the basic programs included. These might be bug fixes or configurations, or back ported features from newer versions. Which leads on to asking which versions of distributions and packages do you want to maintain?
Well, erm, <shuffle-shuffle> Knoppix 3.1 and Debian 3.0 r.1 ATM, but there's not much I can do about Knoppix ATM unless I install it.
The installation of Mandrake fell over, twice, and several years ago I tried to install SuSE and I just couldn't understand any of the instructions - well, not many of them, anyway. Mini-Linux just didn't work, though the installation seemed to go OK.
On Sunday 10 October 2004 9:25 am, Anthony Anson wrote:
For those who justifiably may be puzzled, I beta test my ISP's internet software, and it's written to run in Windows. I have a caddy in the machine and four trays for it.
<serious question> I have debian in one tray, will have Win 98SE in another, and Win 2000 in the third. Knoppix will run from CD.
(Bearing in mind that I have no intention of *EVER* loading XP), available to load I have CP/M, DOS 6.22, Win 3.11 and OS2. I have very old Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake, Mini-Linux distros, and I have a hankering to try PetrOS. I can't bear to have a fiver's worth of tray in the 'Come In Handy Even If I Never Use It' box.
Wow that sounds like a really hard way to go about things, but then I guess even with your fastest machine VMware is going to be a slow alternative.
I run VMware with Linux as a host at home (AMD 32_64) and with XP as a host on my office Laptop (IBM Thinkpad R40) I can build an OS on one machine and then move the virtual drive images to the other. I can take like snapshots of the different OS's just after I have built them, that way if they become contaminated by something I am testing I can revert to the previous snapshot.
You can even configure VMware to run the virtual disks in non persistant mode, that way when you hit the power button of the virtual machine it reverts to it's pre power on state.
Cool feature number two is that with a special support tool you can create a VMware snapshot of a Physical machine, So If I want to try something potentially destructive on an important machine I can take a snapshot, boot it as a VM and play first.
Yes it is a significant software cost (particurally as I had to buy VMware twice) but it has paid for itself about 10 times over so far.
The message 200410101322.16696.ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com from Wayne Stallwood ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com contains these words:
<serious question> I have debian in one tray, will have Win 98SE in another, and Win 2000 in the third. Knoppix will run from CD.
(Bearing in mind that I have no intention of *EVER* loading XP), available to load I have CP/M, DOS 6.22, Win 3.11 and OS2. I have very old Red Hat, SuSE, Mandrake, Mini-Linux distros, and I have a hankering to try PetrOS. I can't bear to have a fiver's worth of tray in the 'Come In Handy Even If I Never Use It' box.
Wow that sounds like a really hard way to go about things, but then I guess even with your fastest machine VMware is going to be a slow alternative.
Would this be VPC? (Which I have this instant been pointed at by Zetnet's development bod)
If so, <Strine> Emma Chisit? </Strine>
I must point out that I don't intend to run the whole list (above). I can run a CP/M emulator, and I have DOS 6.22 and Win 3.11 on my flaptop, and an old server running OS2.
I just don't want to have that tray reproaching me...
On Sunday 10 October 2004 2:09 pm, Anthony Anson wrote:
Would this be VPC? (Which I have this instant been pointed at by Zetnet's development bod)
If so, <Strine> Emma Chisit? </Strine>
Yes it is the same type of product as VPC, however in my opinion VMware is a better implementation.
For a start VPC doesn't support Linux as a host (or a guest since MS bought VPC from Connectix) It can however be made to run Linux as a guest.
VPC doesn't handle SMP hosts very well, VPC doesn't support bridged networking over Wireless Lan (something I actually use) and there is some other nifty tricks and tools VMware has and VPC lacks.
VMware is 189 Dollars as an electronic download.
They offer a time limited evaluation version from www.vmware.com, however at this point I feel I must warn you that it will taint your kernel (if you install the Linux host version) it's pretty much the same mechanism as Nvidia use (open source kernel interface wraps closed bits) comes with an installer that has to be run each time you change your kernel.
That point aside, I have not a single bad word for VMware. If you find yourself frequently playing with various different operating systems (or even the same operating system in several different configuration states) then it is the perfect tool.
The message 200410101718.12234.ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com from Wayne Stallwood ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com contains these words:
That point aside, I have not a single bad word for VMware. If you find yourself frequently playing with various different operating systems (or even the same operating system in several different configuration states) then it is the perfect tool.
Thanks. I'll have to have a rummage down the back of the sofa and see if any of my visitors have left a contribution...
On Saturday 09 October 2004 8:50 pm, Ian bell wrote:
The remote access is the one I had missed. Hard to do without a static IP.
For quite a while (when I was on BT Broadband) I used Dyndns.org and found their service to be top notch. They supply update scripts for Linux.
With dialup dynamic IPs make more sense as in general there are less dial in ports than users, but broadband is treated by many more people as always on, so you don't reduce your IP address usage by using dynamic addressing.
I think the jury is still out on that one. ISTR Jason Clifford who operates ukfsn.org saying he was surprised how many ADSL users still switch off their PCs every day (I know I do for one).
This is a habit I really want to get into. I currently never turn my home machine off, I don't care about the electricity costs but worry about the environmental impact of everybody doing this. I should also delve more deeply into other power saving measures (like spinning down hard drives) and accessing the processor speed step options that (I think) are available on this AMD 64 system board.
Anybody know if a WOL packet can be sent via the internet/an ADSL router ? It would be handy to be able to remotely start my machine for the odd occasion that I need to access it from afar.
Wayne
On Sat, Oct 09, 2004 at 11:26:08PM +0100, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
This is a habit I really want to get into. I currently never turn my home machine off, I don't care about the electricity costs but worry about the environmental impact of everybody doing this. I should also delve more deeply into other power saving measures (like spinning down hard drives) and accessing the processor speed step options that (I think) are available on this AMD 64 system board.
You have to be very careful though that you're not having more environmental impact by reducing the life of your hardware as that may have just as much environmental effect (manufacturing etc.) as you're saving by turning it off.
I think the 'slowing the processor right down' option is probably one of the best as the reliability impact is probably close to nil and the processor is now one of the biggest power consumers.
I *always* turn monitors off but one of my systems does run 24 hours.
On Monday 11 October 2004 8:15 am, Chris Green wrote:
You have to be very careful though that you're not having more environmental impact by reducing the life of your hardware as that may have just as much environmental effect (manufacturing etc.) as you're saving by turning it off.
An interesting point, It's true that temperature/voltage cycling can reduce the life expectancy of some components. That said consumer level machines and workstations "should" be designed to cope with this.
I've never been sure about which lasts longer, machines left on all the time or machines that are powered on/off regularly
Certainly my previous machine managed 3 years or more with no hardware failures, and that was on 24/7
I *always* turn monitors off but one of my systems does run 24 hours.
This really bugs me, there is a reasonable excuse for leaving machines switched on, but why do people not turn off monitors (or at least set up power management to standby the monitor after a period of inactivity).
Not only do you have the whole waste of energy thing, but CRT's (and even the backlight on LCD's) have a finite life.
This is also why I hate screensavers, why have the computer display some fancy image after 20 mins of inactivity when it is just as easy to tell the monitor to shut down.
On 11 Oct 2004, at 22:57, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
Certainly my previous machine managed 3 years or more with no hardware failures, and that was on 24/7
Not comparing to the department I work in. We get some power cuts planned which results myself having to shut down all the Linux boxes at the weekend. Then when it comes to Monday, I find around 2 or 3 boxes refuses to boot up. We took those machines back and found out that most of them either had a burnout component or just completely dead (Those are AMD/Intel). Comparing to the Mac/Sun Ultra/Blade boxes, they are remarkably superior than x86.. So that quote 'you get what you paid for' exists well to those!
I *always* turn monitors off but one of my systems does run 24 hours.
This really bugs me, there is a reasonable excuse for leaving machines switched on, but why do people not turn off monitors (or at least set up power management to standby the monitor after a period of inactivity).
Not only do you have the whole waste of energy thing, but CRT's (and even the backlight on LCD's) have a finite life.
People at work don't turn them off which really then annoys me along with the practice of them logging off every night.... can't be all perfect can we?
On Monday 11 October 2004 22:57, Wayne Stallwood wrote: (snip)
I *always* turn monitors off but one of my systems does run 24 hours.
This really bugs me, there is a reasonable excuse for leaving machines switched on, but why do people not turn off monitors (or at least set up power management to standby the monitor after a period of inactivity).
Not only do you have the whole waste of energy thing, but CRT's (and even the backlight on LCD's) have a finite life.
This is also why I hate screensavers, why have the computer display some fancy image after 20 mins of inactivity when it is just as easy to tell the monitor to shut down.
Ah, at last someone with a shared pet hate. Now if only I could persuade Linux to tell the monitor to shut down. Is there a guide to power management and how to make it work? I've fiddled around in KDE, changed BIOS settings etc but all I get is a nearly-black screen which the monitor ignores.
-- GT
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:16:47 +0100, Graham gt@pobox.com was rumoured to have said:
On Monday 11 October 2004 22:57, Wayne Stallwood wrote: (snip)
I *always* turn monitors off but one of my systems does run 24 hours.
This really bugs me, there is a reasonable excuse for leaving machines switched on, but why do people not turn off monitors (or at least set up power management to standby the monitor after a period of inactivity).
Not only do you have the whole waste of energy thing, but CRT's (and even the backlight on LCD's) have a finite life.
This is also why I hate screensavers, why have the computer display some fancy image after 20 mins of inactivity when it is just as easy to tell the monitor to shut down.
Ah, at last someone with a shared pet hate. Now if only I could persuade Linux to tell the monitor to shut down. Is there a guide to power management and how to make it work? I've fiddled around in KDE, changed BIOS settings etc but all I get is a nearly-black screen which the monitor ignores.
Hmm, unless you have some really o[ld]d hardware, it should just be a matter of:
1) Enabling dpms by adding the following to the Monitor section of your XF86Config-4 or xorg.conf and restarting X:
Option "DPMS"
Then test with `xset dpms force off' (or standby or suspend), see the dpms section of xset(1x) for details.
2) Configuring screensavers etc., which you've probably done already.
Also see setterm(1) if you use the console and want PM there too.
-- GT
rgds, /-sb.
The message 200410121916.47829.gt@pobox.com from Graham gt@pobox.com contains these words:
This is also why I hate screensavers, why have the computer display some fancy image after 20 mins of inactivity when it is just as easy to tell the monitor to shut down.
Ah, at last someone with a shared pet hate.
AOL
Now if only I could persuade Linux to tell the monitor to shut down. Is there a guide to power management and how to make it work? I've fiddled around in KDE, changed BIOS settings etc but all I get is a nearly-black screen which the monitor ignores.
I have an 'Off' button on each of my monitors...
On Tue, 2004-10-12 at 19:16, Graham wrote:
Ah, at last someone with a shared pet hate. Now if only I could persuade Linux to tell the monitor to shut down. Is there a guide to power management and how to make it work? I've fiddled around in KDE, changed BIOS settings etc but all I get is a nearly-black screen which the monitor ignores.
Settings > Screensaver > Advanced ?
/K. (not overly hopeful that this is the desired answer)
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 07:16:47PM +0100, Graham wrote:
Ah, at last someone with a shared pet hate. Now if only I could persuade Linux to tell the monitor to shut down. Is there a guide to power management and how to make it work? I've fiddled around in KDE, changed BIOS settings etc but all I get is a nearly-black screen which the monitor ignores.
Ignoring the KDE part for now do you have a line saying Option "DPMS" in your XF86Config-4? (an example of mine is pasted below below)
Section "Monitor" Identifier "Generic Monitor" HorizSync 30-130 VertRefresh 50-200 Option "DPMS" EndSection
Also in the XFree86 log I see this which tells me DPMS is being enabled.
(II) Loading extension DPMS (**) Option "dpms" (**) NVIDIA(0): DPMS enabled
You can then try the commands
xset dpms force off xset dpms force suspend xset dpms force standby xset dpms force on
and see what happens, If they don't work for various types of power management then I don't think KDE has a chance. If they do work for you and not in KDE then I guess that you will need to start looking at KDE as the possible culprit but if not then it could be you have a video card/monitor combination that doesn't want to do power saving, and to be fair I have never had much success trying this with machines running Windows or Linux so I tend to just use the power switch ;) The best always seems to be /very/ nearly off but there is still a very faint glow from the screen.
Adam
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 07:52:42PM +0100, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
fair I have never had much success trying this with machines running Windows or Linux so I tend to just use the power switch ;) The best always seems to be /very/ nearly off but there is still a very faint glow from the screen.
Oh, I also forgot to say that if I do get a monitor to go turn itself off (but of course the power button is still lit) that I usually can't get them to wake up again without having to power cycle them...
Adam
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 19:58:12 +0100, adam@thebowery.co.uk adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 07:52:42PM +0100, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
fair I have never had much success trying this with machines running Windows or Linux so I tend to just use the power switch ;) The best always seems to be /very/ nearly off but there is still a very faint glow from the screen.
Oh, I also forgot to say that if I do get a monitor to go turn itself off (but of course the power button is still lit) that I usually can't get them to wake up again without having to power cycle them...
How odd. Have you worked out if it is the monitor, the graphics card or the OS/software?
Tim.
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 08:15:00PM +0100, Tim Green wrote:
How odd. Have you worked out if it is the monitor, the graphics card or the OS/software?
Well, this ranges over so many machines, GFX cards, monitors and OS that there is no common factor it seems apart from individual quirks on certain bits of hardware.
Adam
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 19:58, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 07:52:42PM +0100, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
fair I have never had much success trying this with machines running Windows or Linux so I tend to just use the power switch ;) The best always seems to be /very/ nearly off but there is still a very faint glow from the screen.
Oh, I also forgot to say that if I do get a monitor to go turn itself off (but of course the power button is still lit) that I usually can't get them to wake up again without having to power cycle them...
Adam
And I forgot to say that this is a dual-boot machine, and Windows 2000 has no trouble at all hibernating it. Seems Linux has a way to go on the power management stuff.
-- GT
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 08:17:05PM +0100, Graham wrote:
And I forgot to say that this is a dual-boot machine, and Windows 2000 has no trouble at all hibernating it. Seems Linux has a way to go on the power management stuff.
It isn't always fair to blame Linux, as quite often these things don't work in Windows, it quite often comes down to individual manufacturers quirks.
Adam
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 7:58 pm, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Oh, I also forgot to say that if I do get a monitor to go turn itself off (but of course the power button is still lit) that I usually can't get them to wake up again without having to power cycle them...
Now that is weird, you aren't using any KVM switches, VGA extension leads, VGA loopthrough's or splitters by any chance ?
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 10:36:50PM +0100, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 7:58 pm, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Oh, I also forgot to say that if I do get a monitor to go turn itself off (but of course the power button is still lit) that I usually can't get them to wake up again without having to power cycle them...
Now that is weird, you aren't using any KVM switches, VGA extension leads, VGA loopthrough's or splitters by any chance ?
No, if you think thats weird you havn't had enough time to play with lots of video stuff.
Adam
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 19:52, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
You can then try the commands
xset dpms force off xset dpms force suspend xset dpms force standby xset dpms force on
and see what happens, If they don't work for various types of power management then I don't think KDE has a chance. If they do work for you and not in KDE then I guess that you will need to start looking at KDE as the possible culprit but if not then it could be you have a video card/monitor combination that doesn't want to do power saving, and to be fair I have never had much success trying this with machines running Windows or Linux so I tend to just use the power switch ;) The best always seems to be /very/ nearly off but there is still a very faint glow from the screen.
Adam
The "Option DPMS" is present, and each of the above commands (apart from the last) gives the "nearly off" state, which I think KDE is also invoking. I wonder: is the backlight still blasting away behind all those opaque pixels?
I've never got this computer (an Athlon 2800+ on Epox 8KRA2) to do power management, either before or after fitting a new graphics card (nVidia FX5200) and monitor (Samsung SyncMaster 213T). (Plug: A stunning 21.3" DVI LCD panel. Anyone after a Christmas treat for themselves should take a gander at this beast. Not a single dead pixel in the whole 1600x1200.)
Other computers, my old Dell laptop, for example, do behave as wanted. But for this one it looks like the power switch remains the only option.
-- GT
On Tue, Oct 12, 2004 at 08:15:20PM +0100, Graham wrote:
I've never got this computer (an Athlon 2800+ on Epox 8KRA2) to do power management, either before or after fitting a new graphics card (nVidia FX5200) and monitor (Samsung SyncMaster 213T). (Plug: A stunning 21.3" DVI LCD panel. Anyone after a Christmas treat for themselves should take a gander at this beast. Not a single dead pixel in the whole 1600x1200.)
What happens if you connect the screen via an analog cable? just for testing purposes mind ;) The Nvidia gfx cards quite often seem to be a real bugger when it comes to power management and detecting monitor capabilites via DDC. Also are you using the nv or nvidia driver with XFree86? (try using the other one to see if the problem goes away?) Oh, and are you running the system dual head? (with 2 screens) as this can aggravate problems.
Other computers, my old Dell laptop, for example, do behave as wanted. But for this one it looks like the power switch remains the only option.
I know what you mean, although, my Dell M60 laptop works fine (which has a *really* *really* nice 1920x1200 15.4" screen) but others with the Dell D800 which to all intents and purposes is the same machine with a different gfx card have many problems with Linux doing the right thing with power management.
Anyhow, if none of the above ideas work then the power button it is for you ;) and i prefer to leave a flashy screensaver on as it reminds me to turn the monitor off at the power switch instead of having something that nearly but not quite powers off the monitor as it gets hard to tell what state it is in.
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 20:36, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
What happens if you connect the screen via an analog cable? just for testing purposes mind ;) The Nvidia gfx cards quite often seem to be a real bugger when it comes to power management and detecting monitor capabilites via DDC. Also are you using the nv or nvidia driver with XFree86? (try using the other one to see if the problem goes away?) Oh, and are you running the system dual head? (with 2 screens) as this can aggravate problems.
Haven't tried analog, though the previous setup (Matrox G400 with two 17" Diamondtrons) had the same problem. Which is why I suspect the motherboard as much as the GFX card.
With the big LCD one monitor is quite enough. I haven't been able to use the downloaded nVidia driver; as soon as I enable 3D the screen flickers like buggery, but turning it off reverts to the standard SuSE driver. It's a bit shaky doing 3D in Windows too, but I haven't the time or the inclination to pursue it that far as I don't play games. Life's much too interesting for that.
-- GT
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 8:15 pm, Graham wrote:
A stunning 21.3" DVI LCD panel. Anyone after a Christmas treat for themselves should take a gander at this beast. Not a single dead pixel in the whole 1600x1200
Show off !
No this green colour skin isn't envy, it must be something to do with the lighting.
Is it me or do later revisions of KDE need more screen estate, My 17" TFT runs at 1280x1024 yet it feels really cramped sometimes. I don't get this sensation so much when I use Windows at the same resolution.
Three monitors running at 1400x1050, and wish I had the space for a fourth. Yes, KDE does benefit from a lot of real estate.
Regards, Paul.
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 21:33, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
Is it me or do later revisions of KDE need more screen estate, My 17" TFT runs at 1280x1024 yet it feels really cramped sometimes. I don't get this sensation so much when I use Windows at the same resolution.
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 22:33, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Tuesday 12 October 2004 8:15 pm, Graham wrote:
A stunning 21.3" DVI LCD panel. Anyone after a Christmas treat for themselves should take a gander at this beast. Not a single dead pixel in the whole 1600x1200
Show off !
No this green colour skin isn't envy, it must be something to do with the lighting.
Is it me or do later revisions of KDE need more screen estate, My 17" TFT runs at 1280x1024 yet it feels really cramped sometimes. I don't get this sensation so much when I use Windows at the same resolution.
Sorry, I'm a bit sad, drooling over a mere monitor. But it beats anything they offer at work (though I'm working on that).
It seems to me that KDE uses larger fonts than Windows, at least by default. 1600x1200 is comfortable for me; I previously used two 1280x1024 screens and they felt cramped. Multiple desktops are actually more practical than two large screens, both for desk space and neck movement.
-- GT
On Wednesday 13 October 2004 8:07 pm, Graham wrote:
It seems to me that KDE uses larger fonts than Windows, at least by default. 1600x1200 is comfortable for me; I previously used two 1280x1024 screens and they felt cramped. Multiple desktops are actually more practical than two large screens, both for desk space and neck movement.
Using the KDE control center how do I scale everything down a bit, but keep everything looking in perspective.
I have tried messing around with icon and font sizes but it just makes everything look out of proportion. Is the native size of these things determined by the theme.
I guess I am looking for a resolution independent desktop size slider, one that keeps the ratios between icons,fonts, window borders and toolbars intact.
Is this a KDE thing, A SuSE thing or just a thing
In my mind 1280x1024 should not feel cramped, and I'm pretty sure it didn't used to. I would love to run at 1600x1200 but I can't afford the TFT screen required to do so and have little space for a 19" CRT.
I can only wonder how cramped things must feel for those running on (what I imagine) the most common desktop resolution of 1024x768
On Thursday 14 October 2004 19:01, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
Using the KDE control center how do I scale everything down a bit, but keep everything looking in perspective.
I have tried messing around with icon and font sizes but it just makes everything look out of proportion. Is the native size of these things determined by the theme.
I guess I am looking for a resolution independent desktop size slider, one that keeps the ratios between icons,fonts, window borders and toolbars intact.
Is this a KDE thing, A SuSE thing or just a thing
I *think* it's a KDE thing (or possibly just a thing). I run Fedora at work and it's much the same. At home I've scaled down the sizes quite successfully; using Windows fonts such as Arial helps a lot as they seem better designed than the native Linux ones. Thanks to Apple and Microsoft for once. But I agree that an overall scaler would be mighty useful.
I can only wonder how cramped things must feel for those running on (what I imagine) the most common desktop resolution of 1024x768
In 1990 I was still using a 9" Mac SE/30 for programming. At that time, VGA seemed a huge amount of real-estate. Are we spoilt or what?
-- GT
Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Wednesday 13 October 2004 8:07 pm, Graham wrote:
It seems to me that KDE uses larger fonts than Windows, at least by default. 1600x1200 is comfortable for me; I previously used two 1280x1024 screens and they felt cramped. Multiple desktops are actually more practical than two large screens, both for desk space and neck movement.
Using the KDE control center how do I scale everything down a bit, but keep everything looking in perspective.
I have tried messing around with icon and font sizes but it just makes everything look out of proportion. Is the native size of these things determined by the theme.
Currently it seems icon size can be set both on its own and by the theme. I think this has been addressed in 3.3
I guess I am looking for a resolution independent desktop size slider, one that keeps the ratios between icons,fonts, window borders and toolbars intact.
Is this a KDE thing, A SuSE thing or just a thing
It's a KDE thing.
In my mind 1280x1024 should not feel cramped, and I'm pretty sure it didn't used to. I would love to run at 1600x1200 but I can't afford the TFT screen required to do so and have little space for a 19" CRT.
I can only wonder how cramped things must feel for those running on (what I imagine) the most common desktop resolution of 1024x768
I do just that with no problems. I have icons set to 32bits size and I use mainly 11 point fonts. Looks fine.
Ian
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 15:08:47 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org was rumoured to have said:
Tim Green wrote:
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 14:06:21 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
Tim Green wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 16:30:23 +0100, Ian bell ianbell@ukfsn.org wrote:
I am with ukfsn.org. No connection problems, no freebie wires only, excllent Linux support and they have just dropped their prices. Not to mention their direct financial support of GNU/Linux.
Hmm, they only seem to offer dynamic IP or a block of 8 (6 usable?)
Is that a problem?
I feel I only need 1 static IP address. Why would I need more for home use?
Tim.
Depends. I don't know why do you need a static address at all.
DNS and SMTP (both with better-connected backups in other networks) spring to mind.
On the more philosophical side, the idea that my machines should somehow not be fully capable internet peers unless I am making money out of it does not sit very well with me. Dynamic addresses and NAT are IMHO both ugly kludges that threaten to break the net's p2p, end-to-end architecture and turn it to yet another producer/consumer medium.
Ian
Rgds, /-sb.
The message BAY22-F2LAztxc1o8yf00027d6d@hotmail.com from "Ricky Bruce" ricky_bruce@hotmail.com contains these words:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
Hum. <scratches head> I don't know what dsl is (unless it is usually asymetrical), though if it's different, and provided by those already mentioned I'm sure Zetnet does too. They certainly provide different flavours of ADSL.
Have a look at www.zetnet.com - I've been with Zetnet eight years now, and have never thought of changing ISP, nor ever found the need for another account elsewhere.
They are not the cheapest, but there's nothing shoddy about the service, and they don't object to your going elsewhere for (for instance) routers etc.
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
I think all our servers run under Debian, and the Internet Director may be phoned, e-mailed or spoken to in the (closed to outsiders) Zetnet newsgroups. He is, BTW, a Debian developer.
Standard tech support is better than average, though not 24 hours. There are support and help newsgroups on which lurk knowledgeable and helpful Zetnuts, and often full-time support bods, and at least one director, aforementioned /\ up there. (You can be rude to him, and he will be rude back...)
There is a Zetgroup - zetnet.help.linux where questions are usually dealt with by other ZetLinards.
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 04:57:03PM +0100, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message BAY22-F2LAztxc1o8yf00027d6d@hotmail.com from "Ricky Bruce" ricky_bruce@hotmail.com contains these words:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (£25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
Hum. <scratches head> I don't know what dsl is (unless it is usually asymetrical), though if it's different, and provided by those already mentioned I'm sure Zetnet does too. They certainly provide different flavours of ADSL.
Well I suppose what we're getting is DSL, it's broadband (512kB/s in our case) and it's symmetrical. It's a radio system, we're on a rural exchange which won't get ADSL for a while yet.
On Friday 08 October 2004 8:28 pm, Chris Green wrote:
Well I suppose what we're getting is DSL, it's broadband (512kB/s in our case) and it's symmetrical. It's a radio system, we're on a rural exchange which won't get ADSL for a while yet.
DSL describes a carrier technology (Digital Subscriber Line) not a bandwidth capability. Because DSL is commonly used to provide Broadband internet connections it is often assumed that DSL and Broadband mean the same thing.
For example NTL cable users have broadband, but do not technically have DSL
For those who are interested DSL can come in several flavours, including
ADSL - Asymmetric Digital Subscriber line
This is by far the most common one, Asymmetric because it usually only provides 256Kbps upstream. Main benefit is it works over reasonable distances, modems are cheap and it does not disturb any PSTN telephone equipment (or use of the line to make PSTN calls) as long as microfilters are used correctly.
SDSL/HDSL - Symmetric/HIgh Speed Digital subscriber line.
Two competing technologies that essentially achieve the same thing.
up to 2Mbs in both directions, downside over ADSL is that it totally occupies the line it is routed over (the line can not be used for PSTN calls once this has been enabled) and the modem hardware can be expensive.
VDSL - AFAIK not actually deployed anywhere yet. 1.5-2.5 Mbps upstream and a wopping 52Mps downstream
When you hear people reffering to DSL or xDSL they are generalising the different variants, in the same way that Computer can mean Commodore Pet, IBM Mainframe or X86 PC :o)
On 08-Oct-04 Chris Green wrote:
[...]
Well I suppose what we're getting is DSL, it's broadband (512kB/s in our case) and it's symmetrical. It's a radio system, we're on a rural exchange which won't get ADSL for a while yet.
Chris,
Can you expand on the details of the system a bit?
And where are you? Radio broadband is something I'm trying to get a hook into for where I live (which seems to be the Black Hole of the Fens and may never get ADSL).
Thanks, Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 [NB: New number!] Date: 08-Oct-04 Time: 21:34:49 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 09:34:49PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
On 08-Oct-04 Chris Green wrote:
[...]
Well I suppose what we're getting is DSL, it's broadband (512kB/s in our case) and it's symmetrical. It's a radio system, we're on a rural exchange which won't get ADSL for a while yet.
Chris,
Can you expand on the details of the system a bit?
And where are you? Radio broadband is something I'm trying to get a hook into for where I live (which seems to be the Black Hole of the Fens and may never get ADSL).
We're at Newbourne in South Suffolk. The Radio broadband is being installed by a company called Red Moon Internet, see:- http://broadband.redmoon.uk.net/redsub.nsf/pages/home
The local area has a company called Communet which started it all:- http://www.communet-ltd.co.uk/
I think these two web sites should tell you all about it.
On 08-Oct-04 Chris Green wrote:
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 09:34:49PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
On 08-Oct-04 Chris Green wrote:
[...]
Well I suppose what we're getting is DSL, it's broadband (512kB/s in our case) and it's symmetrical. It's a radio system, we're on a rural exchange which won't get ADSL for a while yet.
Chris,
Can you expand on the details of the system a bit?
And where are you? Radio broadband is something I'm trying to get a hook into for where I live (which seems to be the Black Hole of the Fens and may never get ADSL).
We're at Newbourne in South Suffolk. The Radio broadband is being installed by a company called Red Moon Internet, see:- http://broadband.redmoon.uk.net/redsub.nsf/pages/home
The local area has a company called Communet which started it all:- http://www.communet-ltd.co.uk/
I think these two web sites should tell you all about it.
Thanks for this info, Chris. Interesting reading, though apparently it's all taking place a long way from me!
I had a brief burst of hope recently when I read that a company called Trilogy Telecom had a contract with East Cambs DC to "roll out ADSL to rural exchanges in East Cambs".
Checked their website, and saw that their plans were reaching out to places within 3 miles from me on the Westerly side. So contacted them. Unfortunately my exchange (Brandon Creek) is in Norfolk (just): the line crosses the river, 2 miles upstream, into Cambs to serve my patch. They said this was outside their remit (even though, from the phone numbers, Brandon Creek clearly hangs off the Ely net). So much for Council Tax benefits ...
In this area, it looks as though wireless may be the way to go, since there's not enough population density to persuade the telecoms to invest in the hard-wired stuff (the "Register of Interest" for Brandon Creek has been stuck at 9 registrations since 2001 -- I'm No 9!). Radio can broadcast over extended areas with no extra expense linked directly to distance (provided within overall range).
I've registered with the EEDA website:
http://www.demandbroadband.com/bbb-news/home.asp
but it still looks like a black hole!
Any usefull collateral info would be welcome!
Cheers, Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 [NB: New number!] Date: 09-Oct-04 Time: 10:50:56 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
The message 20041008192826.GA24686@areti.co.uk from Chris Green chris@areti.co.uk contains these words:
Hum. <scratches head> I don't know what dsl is (unless it is usually asymetrical), though if it's different, and provided by those already mentioned I'm sure Zetnet does too. They certainly provide different flavours of ADSL.
Well I suppose what we're getting is DSL, it's broadband (512kB/s in our case) and it's symmetrical. It's a radio system, we're on a rural exchange which won't get ADSL for a while yet.
Ah. Can't comment on that, but I rather think not.
In Windows, you can set an environment variable (I think it's called DIRCMD) that provides default options for the dir command. I would like to know how to do this on Linux?
Cheers
Vasko
On 11-Oct-04 Vasko Tomanov wrote:
In Windows, you can set an environment variable (I think it's called DIRCMD) that provides default options for the dir command. I would like to know how to do this on Linux?
Older versions of Linux did not have a "built-in" 'dir' command, though you could set one up using the 'alias' mechanism.
E.g.
alias dir='ls -l'
Nowadays there is the binary program 'dir' which "is equivalent to `ls -C -b'; that is, by default files are listed in columns, sorted vertically, and special characters are represented by backslash escape sequences."
You can study "man dir", choose the options you want (say "optlist" represents your chosen list of options) and then you can put the line
alias dir='dir optlist'
in either your user .bashrc file (for user-specific settings) or in /etc/bashrc (for all-user settings).
Hoping this helps, Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 [NB: New number!] Date: 11-Oct-04 Time: 11:52:36 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
Vasko Tomanov wrote:
In Windows, you can set an environment variable (I think it's called DIRCMD) that provides default options for the dir command. I would like to know how to do this on Linux?
man ls will give you the answer.
Ian
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 12:11:44PM +0000, Ricky Bruce wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (?25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
I don't think anyone will let you move to a new property without a new setup charge; this is imposed by BT.
ps are all ALUGS list messages logged somewhere? LUGs i have been a part of in the past have kept a searchable archive of messages, which has been very useful in looking up past messages for info.
http://lists.alug.org.uk/main/
J.
On Friday 08 October 2004 13:11, Ricky Bruce wrote:
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
I work for KeConnect, an Ipswich based ISP, most of us here use linux on our desktop. We're more then happy to take on linux users.
Ian P. Christian wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2004 13:11, Ricky Bruce wrote:
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
I work for KeConnect, an Ipswich based ISP, most of us here use linux on our desktop. We're more then happy to take on linux users.
We at Convergent ICT, a hosting and support/services company (also in Ipswich) use Gentoo Linux on all our servers and many of our desktops. We're postively keen to take on Linux users (but we don't do dial-up services).
Cheers, Laurie.
On 21 Oct 2004, at 12:54, Laurie Brown wrote:
Ian P. Christian wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2004 13:11, Ricky Bruce wrote:
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
I work for KeConnect, an Ipswich based ISP, most of us here use linux on our desktop. We're more then happy to take on linux users.
We at Convergent ICT, a hosting and support/services company (also in Ipswich) use Gentoo Linux on all our servers and many of our desktops. We're postively keen to take on Linux users (but we don't do dial-up services).
How long have you been using Gentoo there now? Seems well over a year or so?
Craig
Craig wrote:
On 21 Oct 2004, at 12:54, Laurie Brown wrote:
Ian P. Christian wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2004 13:11, Ricky Bruce wrote:
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
I work for KeConnect, an Ipswich based ISP, most of us here use linux on our desktop. We're more then happy to take on linux users.
We at Convergent ICT, a hosting and support/services company (also in Ipswich) use Gentoo Linux on all our servers and many of our desktops. We're postively keen to take on Linux users (but we don't do dial-up services).
How long have you been using Gentoo there now? Seems well over a year or so?
More than 2 years.
Cheers, Laurie.
On Fri, Oct 08, 2004 at 12:11:44PM +0000, Ricky Bruce wrote:
I know this topic comes up every few months but what dsl providers would you lot recommend. Id like to find a nice balance between cost (?25 or so a month) freebies, (a router would be a lovely although somewhat unrealistic target) and reasonable speeds. Also i might be moving from Yarmouth to N'arch in a couple of months so the ability to switch to a new property without incurring any penalties or charges would be great.
And of course tech support who understood that Linux isnt some kind of Windows program but an OS in its own right. Or even tech support that understood what an OS was :)
Personally, I would recommend Black Cat Networks, reasonably priced and reliable, the guys know what they're doing, and are generally helpful and prompt when there is any issue. They can generally be found idling around in #blackcat on irc.oftc.net if you've got an IRC client.
For more information please see http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/.
Thanks,
On Thursday 21 October 2004 13:18, Brett Parker wrote:
Personally, I would recommend Black Cat Networks, reasonably priced and reliable, the guys know what they're doing, and are generally helpful and prompt when there is any issue. They can generally be found idling around in #blackcat on irc.oftc.net if you've got an IRC client.
For more information please see http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/.
KeConnect will un-offically support people over jabber/msn or any messenger that I happen to use ;)
We're not as cheap as some of the large ISPs (not claiming we're small, have over 1500 ADSL customers, and a 155mbit central pipe into our equipment in the docklands).... but we do have good customer services, and are currently giving free migration!
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