Another IRC meeting, the log follows. Today's highlights include: - much head-scratching about Rodney (John's recalcitrant box) - brief mentions of LinuxDay and the website - what we think of web applications and iMacs - other random chat.

See you at the next one next Monday at 8pm! Hopefully by then we'll have a "short intro to IRC" on the website...

IRC log started Mon Jan 22 19:53:57 2001 <slef> hah, that works <BigJohn> how you doing <slef> not too bad. Far too busy, though <slef> today was a total waste, though <BigJohn> I know the feeling <BigJohn> I've been trying to get lilo to work for about a week now and it's doing my head in <BigJohn> I've been attempting a dual boot mdk7.2 Win2k <slef> boot floppies still work, though? * paulr (paulr@modem-27.blue-spotted-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <paulr> hi all. <BigJohn> I installed lilo on my /boot partition and copied the first 512 bytes of the boot sector onto a floppy and loading it with the NT boot loader just get the dreded li... <BigJohn> evening Paul <BigJohn> boot floppy I made on install works but I think that has a kernel on it <slef> yeah, it does, but it's a temporary way out * miniman (jonathan@necryon.demon.co.uk) has joined #alug <miniman> hi <slef> hiya <BigJohn> yeah I know if I try a lilo floppy it just does the same li... its not seeing the kernel for some reason <BigJohn> Hi Jon <slef> who's rdc btw? <BigJohn> Oi rdc who are you :) <paulr> hi miniman. <rdc> Sorry distracted. <rdc> Thanks for the advice last week miniman. make mrproper sorted my probs out. <BigJohn> miniman: My lilo's still broke :( <miniman> ah cool <paulr> heh. * louisd (digfields@host213-1-140-237.btinternet.com) has joined #alug <louisd> Hi <paulr> hi louisd. * ashley (ashley@userhp69.uk.uudial.com) has joined #alug <BigJohn> Evening Ash <paulr> hi ash. busy tonight, huh? <ashley> hello everyone <BigJohn> My god! is this a record number of attendees? <louisd> What's the topic? <slef> yes, I think so <miniman> BigJohn: so it isn't able to find your kernel when using the boot floppy *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to BigJohn's dual boot doesn't <paulr> heh <miniman> with this many ppl in here we should be able to sort rodney out <ashley> this is the first irc meet i've attended in months <BigJohn> miniman: no doesn't find it boohoo *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to BigJohn's dual boot doesn't // <BigJohn> I installed lilo on my /boot partition ... loading it with the NT boot loader just get the dreded li... <paulr> BigJohn: you've tried everything in the howto, I assume <paulr> ? <BigJohn> cool I'm famous :) * iDunno (brett@modem-129.cuban-hogfish.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <BigJohn> yes just about I think <paulr> right. <iDunno> boo. <BigJohn> Hi Brett <slef> ISTR we bashed against this at a meeting <iDunno> "ooops" (topic) <iDunno> hi john. <iDunno> wonder what gave my name away... <paulr> um. BigJohn: is it lilo that you dd, or the kernel? <paulr> must be lilo, I guess. hmm. <iDunno> go on! copy the kernel to your boot sector... * iDunno looks at paul...muppet! [#alug] <BigJohn> used the mini how-to suggestion dd if=/dev/hdg1 of=/bootsect.lnx bs=512 count=1 <BigJohn> lilo installed on /dev/hdg1 <louisd> rdc : I got that 486 under my desk working today <louisd> I'm going to bung that network card back in the home machine and see if I can figure out networking the two <paulr> BigJohn: um. how many hard disks do you have BJ?! * iDunno screams at NS for being shite. [#alug] <iDunno> (and totally forgets where he was aiming his browser) <paulr> Neo the ever helpful ;) <paulr> um. iD, rather. <paulr> BigJohn: I've done that before, and it definately worked -- can't think what could be causing the problem :/ <iDunno> heh <paulr> iDunno: played with dual booting linux and NT recently? <BigJohn> hard disk count= 2 identicle disks hardware raid0 win2k and 1 disk for Linux <paulr> raid0? is that append, or mirror? <iDunno> paulr: not for 3 years. <louisd> Has anyone tried getting a dual boot linux/solaris box sorted? <slef> paulr: mirror <BigJohn> paulr: stripped <slef> uh * slef gets confused * BigJohn more confused <slef> 0 append, 1 mirror, 5 clever? <BigJohn> sounds about right <slef> paulr: append. <BigJohn> whish I had more disks for rais5 * iDunno loses track of everything and crawls into a whole <paulr> 10 == very nice. <iDunno> slef: 5 = hellously clever <paulr> (10 == mirrored raid 5, yes, really) <BigJohn> 15==even better <paulr> heh <paulr> there's a trend here.. <ashley> we have raid 5 at work. Very useful <iDunno> ouch! nice. <slef> iDunno: do you use a mobile phone...? (see tsw.org.uk...) <BigJohn> raid 5 is extreemly smart me thinks <ashley> BigJohn: yep, if a hard disk buries its head, we just swap in a spare <iDunno> slef: erm - yeah... * iDunno wombles to see <slef> paulr: is it you with the raid5 horror story? <paulr> Sun mainframes used to order their own disks when they shot a platter. <iDunno> slef: where am I looking? <BigJohn> rais 5 you can strip and mirror with only 3 disks iirc <ashley> paulr: cool <slef> iDunno: autism thread, today's additions <paulr> raid5 is parity striped. <iDunno> slef: you mean the "the first we knew of one of the disks dying was a new one arriving on the desk?" <paulr> raid4 is a PITA and is non-striped parity. <slef> iDunno: I mean the raid5 array that just lit a little red light so as not to worry anyone... no-one noticed before the 2nd disk failed. <paulr> RAID3 is a striped append, which is about as sensible as carrying a loaded magnum in your underwear. <BigJohn> its all far too clever for me anyhow :) <BigJohn> hehe <slef> paulr: I'm sure there's an obscene comment to be made about that. <iDunno> slef: nah - pauls is the disk arriving on desk one...afaik. <BigJohn> so any ideas on why lilo is giving me so much grief <slef> Your evil hard disk controllers again, probably. <BigJohn> but I've has it working on this setup before <BigJohn> linux can see the disks and the same problem occours id I bung the linux disk on a standard controller??? <slef> Well, you know I only ever have one possible solution to lilo problems. "linear" <BigJohn> what does that do? <slef> tells lilo to ignore the controller a bit <slef> I think <BigJohn> I'll give it a go do I need a compact statement in lilo.conf? <slef> why do you have the NT loader calling lilo anyway? <iDunno> slef: cos it don't work the other way. <iDunno> BigJohn: you seen the NT+Linux howto? <slef> Actually, it works fine. Lilo can call the NT loader & NT will <slef> never knows the difference. <BigJohn> cos thats what the documentation said for once I actually RTFM :) * slef is just websearching now... http://archive.lug.boulder.co.us/bymonth/1999.03/msg00336.html * paulr has signed off (Ping timeout for paulr[modem-27.blue-spotted-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk]) <BigJohn> so I do it the oter way around and call the NT loader from lilo? Won't that kill my NT boot setup? <iDunno> slef: can't find the bit you are on bout on tsw. <slef> iDunno: autism story... has a bit about mobile phones in the thread * paulr (paulr@modem-22.south-dakota.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <paulr> I love dialup, don't you? <iDunno> autism where? <slef> BigJohn: I don't know... I think you need to find someone actually using NT in a similar setup <slef> iDunno: "Internet Causes Autistic Society?" <slef> erk <slef> why's that link gone there? <BigJohn> I know this big bloke called John who was using a dual boot setup :) <iDunno> slef: tried there, can't see sfa. <iDunno> exactly. care to fix? <slef> iDunno: yes, but stop trying to be cute and just tell me the link is to the wrong story. * paulr has signed off (Ping timeout for paulr[modem-22.south-dakota.dialup.pol.co.uk]) <slef> hrm, so nothing more to do to John's booting? * paulr (paulr@modem-22.south-dakota.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <paulr> um. wtf? * paulr gently prods opn. <ashley> anyone know of a good open source content management for the web? <BigJohn> I'm going to give loading lilo on the master boot record a go better make some NT recovery disks though! <iDunno> slef: erm - yeah - it goes to the wrong story ;) *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to <ashley> anyone know of a good open source content management for the web? <slef> iDunno: no it doesn't <paulr> No, frankly. I could write you one. <iDunno> that's better :) <paulr> But that would rely on either: (a) a lot more CFT, or (b) a cheque for about 30 thou. <ashley> :) <slef> It depends what you're after. Some 2nd and 3rd generation web solutions can be made to work for limited things, but they're ultimately doomed. <paulr> slef: god. what gen is C2? <ashley> what type of backends do they use? Database, XML? <slef> ALUG is a strange mix of 1st generation with one eye on future-proofing. <slef> paulr: 4th, if it works. <paulr> slef: ahh. <slef> 1st = flat file and filestores; 2nd = CGI/PHP/etc ; 3rd = early appservers like Zope; 4th = yet to come <paulr> ashley: well, a cocoon based one could use whatever you want, really. I'd be tempted to use Tamino if you need it Big Stylee Industrial, and you have $$$. <slef> So ends slef's web history revisionism <slef> ashley: Databases almost all, sometimes XML databases. <paulr> (as a backend -- it's a database capagle of storing XML) <ashley> Where does Cocoon sit? Between the XML store and the presentation? <BigJohn> could some one tell me the command to make an app always start as root `which....? <paulr> ashley: Cocoon is an XML based application framework. <paulr> it's the glue that would let you build a CMS, basically (the CMS would run inside Cocoon) <ashley> paulr: So its a scripting language? <paulr> ashley: uh, not exactly, no. <paulr> it's a framework. 23 thousand lines worth of servlet, in reality. <slef> BigJohn: chmod u+s executable? <ashley> paulr: can you give example of use? <paulr> take a look at the (very out of date) http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/, with a particular eye on the Cocoon2 bit. <iDunno> Cocoon is a java application framework with a focus on converting anything to anything and running as a neato funky server under tomcat... <iDunno> (maybe?) <paulr> iDunno: um. eloquent. sortof. <iDunno> paulr: well...it does sorta, ish... <paulr> ashley: okay, imagine A.N.Other web application, say written in PHP <BigJohn> slef: cheers <paulr> now pull the look and feel of it away from the content, and away from the 'what appears on what page' (what I call presentation) <paulr> you end up with a 4/5 layered architecture: <slef> BigJohn: ought to use sudo or something instead <ashley> thanks paul. Will read later. <paulr> [EJB/Database] -> [Content selection/XSP] -> [Styling] -> [Client]. <iDunno> sudo rocks... <paulr> ashley: okay mate. give me a yell if you need any pointers. <iDunno> sudo + alias == good nice clean wholesome fun. <slef> [Huge program] -> [Upward motion] -> [Own backside] * slef runs <paulr> heh <slef> seriously, it's all good engineering and it'll be needed if e-commerce is ever going to work <paulr> indeed. <paulr> although a lot of other things will be too (direct interfacing to EFT etc etc etc) <slef> ok, can we move on quickly (I want to go eat dinner tonight)? <ashley> paulr: EFT? <paulr> heh. *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to LinuxDay <paulr> ashley: electronic funds transfer. <slef> well, I suck... not sorted the venue out yet <paulr> anyway, on with the show. <slef> Are we OK to sit around a table at Syleham and discuss it more then? <BigJohn> back shortly chaps * BigJohn (bj@modem-135.washington.dialup.pol.co.uk) has left #alug because () <paulr> works for me. <ashley> sounds good. <slef> paulr: enough about that. Will you be able to sit at a table and discuss LinuxDay? <paulr> slef: when is it? <paulr> (both) <slef> paulr: April 29th, Feb 4th (iirc) * bj (bj@modem-222.rhode-island.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <slef> bj: Feb 4th? <paulr> okay. * paulr looks at palm <paulr> okay, where'd I put it? * slef looks at palm... ooh, my life line looks long <paulr> heh <slef> ok <paulr> sunday. hmm. is andrew going? <paulr> just going to buy a bottle of wine. back shortly. *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to Website -- email articles, designs, offers of help, crisp used monetary notes to markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk <slef> paulr: I don't think he's said yet <paulr> slef: okay. <bj> Feb 4th is confirmed 2:00 - 6:00 <slef> Anyone got stuff they want to write just a short bit about for the website? <iDunno> slef: erm - erm - is you giving andy and pauly a lift? <slef> Doesn't need to be a huge essay... I'm going to put a short one on setting fax up as a printer Real Soon Now <slef> iDunno: nfc <paulr> slef: want to content syndicate from my personal site when CFT allows be to write it?# <slef> iDunno: not if you are ;) <slef> paulr: will gleefully <slef> paulr: would quite like lots of material on the main site too, though <iDunno> heh. I'll stay home then <sulk /> *** bj is now known as BigJohn <iDunno> anyone written the mini IRC howto yet? <paulr> slef: about what? <paulr> ack. gone. back soon. <iDunno> he will get that wine, honest ;) <slef> iDunno: no... you writing it? <slef> http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/background/submissions.html IIRC * slef looks <iDunno> slef: erm - won't be untill at least thurs...got some major work to do. <BigJohn> anyone writen a lilo+NT on RODNEY how-to yet :) <slef> yes, that's right <slef> iDunno: that's fine... if we can get this out the door by Friday, I'll be happy <iDunno> slef: u in on weds btw? <ashley> what type of IRC article is needed? <slef> iDunno: yes, somehow (car semi-broken still) <slef> ashley: how to connect (probably console, gnome, KDE clients), where to find good help, etc. <iDunno> slef: k - might need you and adam for some serious stuff (like kit hunting and working out what we want from who and if they accept wassbobsthat I can't remeber) <slef> iDunno: OK, but can we talk about it elsewhere <ashley> slef: sorry, can't help. I'm talking via a mac at present (Ashley runs...) <iDunno> slef: yeah. <slef> ashley: sOK, but not the best Linux promotion, probably <iDunno> obviously the mac has deb on it... <slef> OK, I'm going to go get dinner... I'll log until 9pm so keep chatting about stuff if you want ;-) <ashley> I believe in separate tools for separate jobs - macs are good for somethings, Linux boxes are good for others... <iDunno> haven't found much that I can't do on a nux box...biggest let down s dtp...haven't found a nice dtp proggy yet. * louisd de-lurks to say cheerio <BigJohn> iMacs are great for posing on receptionists desks in advertising agencys * louisd (digfields@host213-1-140-237.btinternet.com) has left #alug because () <iDunno> eww. they're horrible..they're fugly...I don't like 'em ;) <ashley> BigJohn: my companies got one (marketing/web company) <ashley> My ibook gives me 5-6 hours battery time! <iDunno> my psion gives me 30-40 hours ;) <BigJohn> why do you see so many of them on the telly? cos telly producers think they look coo! personally I think they look like boiled sweets! <iDunno> right - anyways...offfffff! <iDunno> tata all. * iDunno has signed off (gone!) <ashley> Seen the new powerbook laptop. www.apple.com - 15", titanium case, etc. Of course you can't run much on it... <ashley> I'm off, see you later...