[Alug]Re: Update on story of Microsoft charging schools too much.
The bit that worries me about this story actually working in IT in a School is that it doesn't say that the Government will bulk buy licences it says the Government will bulk buy computer equipment with the licences to save Schools the licence costs. The Government bulk buying IT equipment is a joke. I also fail to see where they get this £70 from ours is £36.63 and even if we added the couple of titles not on our agreement this certainly wouldn't more than double the price. Cheers, Ben Norcutt
On Wednesday 25 Jun 2003 11:11 am, Ben Norcutt wrote:
The bit that worries me about this story actually working in IT in a School is that it doesn't say that the Government will bulk buy licences it says the Government will bulk buy computer equipment with the licences to save Schools the licence costs.
The Government bulk buying IT equipment is a joke. I also fail to see where they get this £70 from ours is £36.63 and even if we added the couple of titles not on our agreement this certainly wouldn't more than double the price.
I was confused too by what the government has actually 'negotiated'. it is not clear which M$ licences are covered, is it just the OS or does it cover the core apps like office. And what about all the other non free software that schools use like the (mandatory??) SIMS for admin plus the various teaching progs? Presumably schools still have to by the latest versions of these. As for the idea of central government buying PCs at a discount - well the mind simply boggles. Ian
On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 11:11:50AM +0100, Ben Norcutt wrote:
The Government bulk buying IT equipment is a joke. I also fail to see where they get this £70 from ours is £36.63 and even if we added the couple of titles not on our agreement this certainly wouldn't more than double the price.
I don't know the details but I thought that many schools pay once for the OS with the machine and then again under the MSSA because they need a license for each computer in the school? Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Wednesday 25 June 2003 20:26, Adam Bower wrote:
I don't know the details but I thought that many schools pay once for the OS with the machine and then again under the MSSA because they need a license for each computer in the school?
and lets not forget that as well as buying the Desktop OS and any Client Access Licences that are required those schools unfortunate enough to be involved with the RM connect world of pain also have to buy a Client license for the RM software. This is not an issue when replacing old machines but any RM based network I have seen has a number of licensed machines and if you exceed number that you have to purchase more RM licences.
On Thursday 26 Jun 2003 1:22 am, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Wednesday 25 June 2003 20:26, Adam Bower wrote:
I don't know the details but I thought that many schools pay once for the OS with the machine and then again under the MSSA because they need a license for each computer in the school?
and lets not forget that as well as buying the Desktop OS and any Client Access Licences that are required those schools unfortunate enough to be involved with the RM connect world of pain also have to buy a Client license for the RM software. This is not an issue when replacing old machines but any RM based network I have seen has a number of licensed machines and if you exceed number that you have to purchase more RM licences.
Apologies for arriving at this discussion so late... RM has been "in it" because they can charge the earth from what I recall. I left high school as they "got in" based on a cheque for a horrendous amount of money. I have little doubt that the school has been forced to upgrade licenses on a number of occassions and potentially had students without required software because of licensing and financial arrangements. Unfortunately, complaining to a local newspaper actually doesn't do an awful lot of good. Getting in as an article helps, but you need to be of a) public interest and b) public understanding. Linux/OSS is not understood by the public and more problematic is that they have zero interest in it. I would estimate that over 80% of the general public asked whether they would appreciate a very quick run-down on why Microsoft was evil and Linux was good would say, "nah, I'll leave that to you techies/nerds/boffins". The way, I believe anyhow, to get Linux in, is through the more traditional method: staff working onsite. We already have plenty of evidence to suggest that organisations are running Linux machines perfectly happily without the managers knowledge, and we also have a number of US projects where students have been given a KDE desktop and used it in preference to a Windows desktop. Such a strategy takes time, and a staffer to actually implement a gradual switch. Explaining to parents why they've got a load of KDE desktops instead of industry standard ones also requires some skill. Getting the UK Goverment on board will be a massive coup, and I don't think that's possilbe without IBM. IBM is a worldwide brand name, and having it's support in UK education would probably be the number one shift in balance you could wish for. My thoughts, anyway. Regards, James
On Sat, Jul 05, 2003 at 11:01:43PM +0100, James Green wrote:
Unfortunately, complaining to a local newspaper actually doesn't do an awful lot of good. Getting in as an article helps, but you need to be of a) public interest and b) public understanding. Linux/OSS is not understood by the public and more problematic is that they have zero interest in it.
I more or less agree with what you said, but complaining to a local newspaper does lots of good. It gives a few people some ammunition that they need to start making the first few changes in the first few places. It may only have an effect on perhaps 1 person, but that is how we need to grow things. A similar thing could be said for install fests, istr the last alug install day we did I installed debian on 1 computer (it may not have been an install day, I forget). So in some terms it was not a great success and with that time it took I could probably have done something more "impressive" with my time, but of course that one person could introduce the OS to perhaps a few more maybe it will get introduced to one person who holds lots of sway in a reasonable size company. Anyhow I think what I am trying to say is that even small amounts of publicity do real good, it means people sit up and listen when they see its a grass roots thing and not just expensive computer companies trying to sell them the "latest greatest" fad. I think that what we are trying to do is spread a message or a word, the more people who listen the better even if they don't do anything about it. I suppose if i was to be extra pretentious++ then I could say we are acting as disciples of a religon. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 12:18:59AM +0100, Adam Bower wrote: <snip> one other point I wanted to make is sometimes you don't want a big flashy ad campaign for something that isn't big and flashy, adverts on tele for things that are "whiter than white" really make me cringe and that is not the way to do it when we are talking about software. Now I think of it, the ads that make me cringe most are things like Ciscos "nothings happening" and the ads for Windows Server 2003 at the moment, the ooze a kind of unpleasant vileness that makes me think of "whiter than white" Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On 2003.07.06 00:18, Adam Bower wrote:
I more or less agree with what you said, but complaining to a local newspaper does lots of good. It gives a few people some ammunition that they need to start making the first few changes in the first few places. It may only have an effect on perhaps 1 person, but that is how we need to grow things.
As James said, some issues surrounding software are beyond the understanding of most people, and also of no interest to them. That doesn't mean this is a lost cause though. Most people understand very well the concept of spending a large amount of money on something when an equivalent is available for free, and also understand very well that the education system doesn't have money to burn. What we must do is to convince people that this is the situation rather than it being one of paying more for a better product. To do this, stories of other similar organisations that have successfully switched to a free OS and/or a free desktop suite will be easier to understand that any technical argument. Steve.
On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 12:58:55PM +0100, Steve Fosdick wrote:
What we must do is to convince people that this is the situation rather than it being one of paying more for a better product. To do this, stories of other similar organisations that have successfully switched to a free OS and/or a free desktop suite will be easier to understand that any technical argument.
My favourite atm is not to try and convince windows users with little computer knowledge to try things like Linux but get them onto things like GnuWin http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/index.html lots of people turn off when they hear about "operating systems" but many tend to stay alert when you say "free software" (unfortunatly for the wrong reasons) but all the same I think GnuWin is a good start for many people as there is so much on just 1 CD and many people will find something of use. The other thing I have noticed is how few people have heard of OpenOffice compared to how many have heard of Linux, that is another area that needs lots of evangalising is to get people running openoffice on windows and when their licenses or support for the OS run out (NT 4.0 has around a year left, as does win 98 I think) they have already tried free software and we could perhaps persuade a migration to Linux (of course there is a benefit here that they can use their old hardware while running free software vs using non-free software that will probably require a new computer) Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Sunday 06 Jul 2003 2:55 pm, Adam Bower wrote:
My favourite atm is not to try and convince windows users with little computer knowledge to try things like Linux but get them onto things like GnuWin http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/index.html lots of people turn off when they hear about "operating systems" but many tend to stay alert when you say "free software" (unfortunatly for the wrong reasons) but all the same I think GnuWin is a good start for many people as there is so much on just 1 CD and many people will find something of use.
One of the serious points facing any attempt at migrating people across is that we must understand the target markets in much the same way as Microsoft has been so successful. A few of you may cringe hearing that and think to yourselves "on God he's a suit" -- guess what, Microsoft is full of suits and they succeded where perhaps they shouldn't have. Some people respond well to a guy in casual clothes doing a presentation over a suited person. Doing the presentation to the guy(s) making the actual decision is another problem. I've always thought that other than IBM there really hasn't been any marketing done of Linux. They really needs to change.
The other thing I have noticed is how few people have heard of OpenOffice compared to how many have heard of Linux
I looked at OpenOffice 1.0, and whilst it worked to a point, I wouldn't want to try and wean someone off MS Office using it. OTOH, how many people use a function within MS Office that isn't bog standard functionality across OpenOffice/other OSS?
, that is another area that needs lots of evangalising is to get people running openoffice on windows and when their licenses or support for the OS run out (NT 4.0 has around a year left, as does win 98 I think) they have already tried free software and we could perhaps persuade a migration to Linux (of course there is a benefit here that they can use their old hardware while running free software vs using non-free software that will probably require a new computer)
When the Government figures out the TCO of Microsoft licensing for schools they will almost certainly introduce a huge pile of paperwork they will be needed to apply for various software packages to be installed in schools. This will have the effect of turning schools off from applying in the first place, and potentially restricting a student's ability to perform in the classroom. There could be room for invention here by OSS advocates... In the meantime, someone might care to explain to the EDP that 'Open Source Office' is not a package but a merging of terminology. Once EDP/others start seeing more activity with OSS because of cost savings, sitting down with one of their technology journalists within their office and taking them through Linux-KDE-Open Office would be a good idea, let them see how they could work and understand the terminology a little. Again, my thoughts alone. James
On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 06:18:03PM +0100, James Green wrote:
I looked at OpenOffice 1.0, and whilst it worked to a point, I wouldn't want to try and wean someone off MS Office using it. OTOH, how many people use a function within MS Office that isn't bog standard functionality across OpenOffice/other OSS?
I reckon that there are more people out there who use office 97 or 2000 and use possibly 5% of the features while running windows 98 than there are people who use 95%+ of the features in Office XP or 2003. In all my experience of people using office apps I only think maybe less than 5% use any of the "advanced" features at all. Even then I think this is a very conservative estimate, most people could get away with Works and still have too much functionality. Most people I have ever seen who have the whole office suite usually use word to write letters, use Excel to look at spreadsheets other people created and the same for powerpoint. I think I only ever saw a couple of people use Access for a database and then get a bit upset when Access destroyed their files a few months later (fortunatley for them we had backups) I also read the other day on slashdot i believe that Gnumeric now equals all the functions of Excel and has at least 100 more. In addition to that I find that Open Office has far too many features many of which I will never use for the tasks I use it for. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Sunday 06 Jul 2003 7:04 pm, Adam Bower wrote:
I also read the other day on slashdot i believe that Gnumeric now equals all the functions of Excel and has at least 100 more. In addition to that I find that Open Office has far too many features many of which I will never use for the tasks I use it for.
Gnumeric imho is a better more mature solution that the OO.org spreadsheet module. I have never been that comfortable with the Star/Open Office spreadsheet, there again I don't like Excel either. I always used to use Lotus 123 when I was (over on the dark side) using Windows. However the OO.org spredsheet should keep most Excel users happy. Cheers, BJ
On Sunday 06 Jul 2003 6:18 pm, James Green wrote:
I looked at OpenOffice 1.0, and whilst it worked to a point, I wouldn't want to try and wean someone off MS Office using it. OTOH, how many people use a function within MS Office that isn't bog standard functionality across OpenOffice/other OSS?
I have, a simple word count of selected text, not there as standard but I found a macro on the net that worked and gave me back that function. Other than that OO.org 1.0 gives me all I reckon I'll ever need in an office suite. I haven't had to resort to a Win/Office box for yonks and I don't expect to any time in the future. Strike one for the good guys then. Cheers, BJ
James Green <jg@jmkg.net> wrote:
switch. Explaining to parents why they've got a load of KDE desktops instead of industry standard ones also requires some skill.
No, it does not. Because of a fairer and more open market, I fully expect the same argument given for free software on the "laptops for teachers" scheme would work: "N instead of m computers" (where N is greater than m). Possibly even "staff" if things carry on the way it's going. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult."
On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Adam Bower wrote:
On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 11:11:50AM +0100, Ben Norcutt wrote:
The Government bulk buying IT equipment is a joke. I also fail to see where they get this £70 from ours is £36.63 and even if we added the couple of titles not on our agreement this certainly wouldn't more than double the price.
I don't know the details but I thought that many schools pay once for the OS with the machine and then again under the MSSA because they need a license for each computer in the school?
It might be worth mentioning this sort of thing to your MP. I'm planning to send a cynical message to Charles Clarke (my MP) on this subject (what would I do without www.faxyourmp.org.uk?). I've never gotten anything more than a form letter from Clarke but Gibson tends to reply properly (for those in Norwich N.) Bob Blizzard (Norfolk North) is involved too, so he may be approachable on the subject. BenE
BenE <mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
those in Norwich N.) Bob Blizzard (Norfolk North) is involved too, so he may be approachable on the subject.
Isn't Blizzard Waveney? I thought Norman Lamb was Norfolk North. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ *UPDATED* Kit for sale at http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ads.html
participants (10)
-
Adam Bower -
Ben Norcutt -
BenE -
Craig -
Ian Bell -
James Green -
John Woodard -
MJ Ray -
Steve Fosdick -
Wayne Stallwood