http://news.com.com/2100-7337_3-5131787.html?tag=nefd_lede Bios maybe replaced by EFI and Microsoft are helping to develop it. Poorly written article but neverless, the thought that MS might have a hand in something like that is pretty scary. Also the bit about low level 3rd party drivers being loaded before the OS worries me. Naturally this will all be closed source and if two of the drivers don't play nicely how the hell will you be able to troubleshoot it. I'm all for ditching the BIOS as it stands maybe moving to something like http://www.openfirmware.org/, if it works for Apple and Sun then why not. But the thought of a platforms firmware being designed by that platforms most aggressive software developer is something that fills me with dread.
On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 08:04:21PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
I'm all for ditching the BIOS as it stands maybe moving to something like http://www.openfirmware.org/, if it works for Apple and Sun then why not.
But the thought of a platforms firmware being designed by that platforms most aggressive software developer is something that fills me with dread.
Aye, I agree, but then at worst all the Linux peeps will end up buying Macs or Sparc boxen to run Linux on :) Also I don't think that the Chinese (or India) will be to happy about this so I figure that they will develop down their own route. Anyhow I figure it is about time to kill off the PC architecture though, it does truely suck at pretty much everything but has the advantage of being cheap bang for buck right now. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Tuesday 30 December 2003 21:24, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Anyhow I figure it is about time to kill off the PC architecture though, it does truely suck at pretty much everything but has the advantage of being cheap bang for buck right now.
While I agree that some aspects of the x86 architecture do suck. It is worthwhile remembering that there is/has been very little to compare it to. Comparing it to one manufacturer designs like Mac, Sparc or perhaps something from SGI is not really fair. The key strength of the PC is that you have a choice of manufacturers for every single part. Better than that, almost anybody can add a feature or interface and eventually get it accepted as part of the "standard" as long as it stands up to the peer review of what features sell mainboards. Compaq I believe had an i386 in the shops before IBM did ! This is the sole reason that I am sitting in front of a PC rather than a Mac at the moment. I like the fact that no one manufacturer can steer this platform against the wishes of the user community as a whole. Intel start putting DRM bits in their processors, no problem just buy AMD... Via produce a chipset that can not be made to work with Linux, no problem just buy Intel. Anyway most of the x86 weaknesses could be addressed, but at the price of compatability with legacy apps and hardware as this is one of the architectures strengths it is often considered a price too high.
On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 10:41:59PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
On Tuesday 30 December 2003 21:24, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Anyhow I figure it is about time to kill off the PC architecture though, it does truely suck at pretty much everything but has the advantage of being cheap bang for buck right now.
While I agree that some aspects of the x86 architecture do suck. It is worthwhile remembering that there is/has been very little to compare it to.
Comparing it to one manufacturer designs like Mac, Sparc or perhaps something from SGI is not really fair. The key strength of the PC is that you have a choice of manufacturers for every single part. Better than that, almost anybody can add a feature or interface and eventually Thing is that Sparc is a system that has clones available, (of course very popular with Sun) the Mac has also had clones in the past, and of course PowerPC is used in many different types of machine. When you refer to SGI I presume that you are talking about the Irix/MIPs workstations as SGI also make x86 and other boxen but even then the MIPs arch runs on many different machines . Of course all of the above can run Linux in some form or another (exempting a few flavours of those machines as they can be a bit weird)
It still doesn't change the fact that x86 architecture is a bit sucky and anyhow my sparc box accepts pci cards like anything else as do powermacs (?)etc etc.. It is a shame that hardware makers are sticking with such a poor overall architecture, it would be nice if the other choices had more money spent on them. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Tuesday 30 December 2003 23:10, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Thing is that Sparc is a system that has clones available, (of course very popular with Sun)
Wow, originally I thought that only Sun made Sparc Processors, then I found this page http://www.sparc.com/chips.shtml
** adam@thebowery.co.uk <adam@thebowery.co.uk> [2003-12-30 23:10]:
It still doesn't change the fact that x86 architecture is a bit sucky and anyhow my sparc box accepts pci cards like anything else as do powermacs (?)etc etc.. It is a shame that hardware makers are sticking with such a poor overall architecture, it would be nice if the other choices had more money spent on them. ** end quote [adam@thebowery.co.uk]
Why build other architecture hardware when Windows no longer supports it? You'd have to charge more and therefore limit your sales and hence income. There's little market on the desktop here, only server and specialist systems. Witness the size of the Apple Mac market compared to the x86 system market. How many people here are running non-x86 hardware? Probably a few Mac users, maybe the odd one or two with second hand Sparc or similar machines. I would suggest it is unlikely that many, if anyone has bought non-x86 hardware new specifically run Linux or another OS (excluding Mac as the lone exception). It is available if you want to pay the premium. There's the AmigaOne hardware that runs Linux quite happily - in fact that's about all it runs until Amiga OS 4 is released (if ever!). There's also the Pegasos systems, again Amiga related and again Linux compatible (as well as the native MorphOS). Not saying, of course, that these motherboards are necessarily easy to get hold of, but then that's because the market is so limited. If you shop around I think you can still get ARM based systems that will run Linux as well as RISCOS - probably easiest to source in the Anglian area too :-) http://www.eyetech.co.uk/search.php?SearchStr=&SearchCat=AMA1 http://amigaone-linux.sourceforge.net/index.php http://www.pegasosppc.com/ http://www.pegasos-uk.com/english/menu_main.html End of cynicism ;-) -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 04:11:02PM +0000, Paul Tansom wrote:
How many people here are running non-x86 hardware? Probably a few Mac users, maybe the odd one or two with second hand Sparc or similar machines. I would suggest it is unlikely that many, if anyone has bought non-x86 hardware new specifically run Linux or another OS (excluding Mac as the lone exception). It is available if you want to pay the premium. There's the AmigaOne hardware that runs Linux quite happily -
Ok, ask the same question in 3/4 years time when all x86 hardware has "trusted computing" and can't run Linux, I think that a much greater %age of the people here won't have an x86 box. Anyhow afaik you can't buy 64 bit windows for AMD Opteron/Athlon 64 yet ;) all my point is that there are choices for not using x86 and if a time came that Linux couldn't be booted on x86 then I for one would probably buy a Mac, ARM box or Sparc as my new desktop. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
Paul Tansom wrote:
** adam@thebowery.co.uk [2003-12-30 23:10]:
It still doesn't change the fact that x86 architecture is a bit sucky and anyhow my sparc box accepts pci cards like anything else as do powermacs (?)etc etc.. It is a shame that hardware makers are sticking with such a poor overall architecture, it would be nice if the other choices had more money spent on them. How many people here are running non-x86 hardware? Probably a few Mac users, maybe the odd one or two with second hand Sparc or similar machines. I would suggest it is unlikely that many, if anyone has bought non-x86 hardware new specifically run Linux or another OS (excluding Mac as the lone exception). [snip - interesting about Amiga systems] I am RISC OS user, as are other members of this list, I do not own a single x86 computer. I am thinking of getting a RiscPC to ARM Linux as BIND server.
http://www.iyonix.com Castle Iyonix runs Debian http://www.microdigital.co.uk A dutch person is porting Linux to Omega http://www.riscos.com http://www.riscstation.com Runs Arm Linux http://www.apdl.co.uk/comp.htm RISC OS companies that do Linux include Aleph1 (Lart), Simtec (Cats) etc [note to rjek, do not send one of your troll replies to this] -- Tarquin Mills RUNG (RISC OS Users, Norfolk Group) http://speccyverse.homedns.org/rung/ (running on RISC OS) New domain name coming soon http://***.***********.**.**/
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 06:58:31PM +0000, Tarquin Mills wrote:
Paul Tansom wrote:
** adam@thebowery.co.uk [2003-12-30 23:10]:
It still doesn't change the fact that x86 architecture is a bit sucky and anyhow my sparc box accepts pci cards like anything else as do powermacs (?)etc etc.. It is a shame that hardware makers are sticking with such a poor overall architecture, it would be nice if the other choices had more money spent on them. How many people here are running non-x86 hardware? Probably a few Mac users, maybe the odd one or two with second hand Sparc or similar machines. I would suggest it is unlikely that many, if anyone has bought non-x86 hardware new specifically run Linux or another OS (excluding Mac as the lone exception). [snip - interesting about Amiga systems] I am RISC OS user, as are other members of this list, I do not own a single x86 computer. I am thinking of getting a RiscPC to ARM Linux as BIND server.
I like x86 for Linux. It's cheaper and faster. I certainly wouldn't use a RiscPC as a server that might get any load at all. Flushing the cache on every context switch is painful.
[note to rjek, do not send one of your troll replies to this]
I wouldn't dream of it. This is the first thing I've heard you say in a long time that actually contains fact, rather than hearsay or general blinkered balls. Well done. B. -- Rob Kendrick, Pepperfish Limited http://www.pepperfish.net/ PGP signed or encrypted mail welcome Key ID: 3651D17A
On Tuesday 30 Dec 2003 8:04 pm, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
http://news.com.com/2100-7337_3-5131787.html?tag=nefd_lede
Bios maybe replaced by EFI and Microsoft are helping to develop it.
I read something about this a few months ago - PC Plus probably, I think they had a an article about major changes in PC architecture upcoming e.g. SATA, PCI Express (?). AFAIR the basic idea is that as little as possible will be on the motherboard chip, just a simple boot-strap loader. There will be a hidden partition on the hard-drive and all other bios-like functions will be there in s/w. In theory it could open things up for FOSS, not lead to an MS-controlled lockdown, since almost everything in the boot process would be in soft not hardware. A lot easier than burning your own bios eprom anyway :-) Syd
On Wednesday 31 December 2003 08:28, Syd Hancock wrote:
I read something about this a few months ago - PC Plus probably, I think they had a an article about major changes in PC architecture upcoming e.g. SATA, PCI Express (?).
We have been building and selling SATA capable machines for some time now. Very nice to loose those chunky IDE cables (although I have yet to get it working with our favourite operating system) Unfortunately we will be stuck with the legacy IDE interfaces until the price and availability of SATA removeable media drives matches that of SATA hard drives. There are converters available to run IDE devices from a SATA interface, but these represent another expense to OEM builders who prefer the cheaper option of the IDE interface on the board until SATA CD,DVD,RW drives are readily available and inexpensive
participants (6)
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adam＠thebowery.co.uk -
Paul Tansom -
Rob Kendrick -
Syd Hancock -
Tarquin Mills -
Wayne Stallwood