Hi all,
I am looking for a new laptop and need a few suggestions...
What I want is something that doesn't have to be insanely fast, but works with Linux really nicely (and without resorting to non-free drivers). Has perhaps 512MB of ram, 40GB+ disk, half decent gfx that don't use system ram as video ram, 3 year warranty, linux friendly modem, ethernet. Built in working wireless would be nice, but I can always resort to a pcmcia wireless card. Extra points would be awarded for having a long battery life, and either a small form factor with a screen 1024x768 or a large form factor but with an amazing hires screen, keeping the weight down would also be good, and having a nipple and a trackpad would be exemplary.
I would also like to avoid having to pay any M$ tax if at all possible but if the supplier doesn't support linux I am not so sure about ditching the windows license entirely for when the thing goes wrong and they won't take it back as "that must be a linux problem".
Anyhow, so far I have been looking at Dells factory outlet, as they have 3 year warranty and are unlikely to go bankrupt tomorrow, so at least the warranty is worth something unlike some of the taiwanese OEM crap. I have also looked at Thinkpads on ebay, but they are all either far to expensive or very dodgy looking.
Any suggestions?
Thanks Adam PS I would like to spend less than a grand, just to make this mission impossible ;) and I did look at Apple laptops and they are either too expensive (powerbooks) or don't have pcmcia slots (iBook) which means they are not linux friendly :(
Hi,
On 12 Dec 2003, at 23:20, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
I am looking for a new laptop and need a few suggestions...
Get an iBook and run linux on it.
Built-in wireless, decent disk space, great battery life, firmware suspend/resume, small with amazing screen, no M$ tax, under a grand.
A.
On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 12:09:14AM +0000, Andrew Savory wrote:
Hi,
On 12 Dec 2003, at 23:20, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
I am looking for a new laptop and need a few suggestions...
Get an iBook and run linux on it.
Built-in wireless, decent disk space, great battery life, firmware suspend/resume, small with amazing screen, no M$ tax, under a grand.
I *really* would like an iBook, 2 problems though :( the first is that the new airport extreme thing doesn't work in Linux and you have no pcmcia slot to plug in a working wireless card. 2nd one is that I tend to dislike trackpads, I think what is the show stopper is the lack of wireless lan :(
Adam
On 13 Dec 2003, at 00:09, Andrew Savory wrote:
Get an iBook and run linux on it.
Built-in wireless, decent disk space, great battery life, firmware suspend/resume, small with amazing screen, no M$ tax, under a grand.
WHAT?! That's pretty silly to be honest ;)
If you ever decided to get a ibook, go to John Lewis to test those ibook out. I dunno where you are but you could try out my powerbook ;)
C
On 13 Dec 2003, at 14:51, Craig wrote:
On 13 Dec 2003, at 00:09, Andrew Savory wrote:
Get an iBook and run linux on it.
Built-in wireless, decent disk space, great battery life, firmware suspend/resume, small with amazing screen, no M$ tax, under a grand.
WHAT?! That's pretty silly to be honest ;)
Why is it pretty silly?
If you ever decided to get a ibook, go to John Lewis to test those ibook out. I dunno where you are but you could try out my powerbook ;)
No thanks - I have a 15" powerbook G4 here.
A.
On 13 Dec 2003, at 15:32, Andrew Savory wrote:
WHAT?! That's pretty silly to be honest ;)
Why is it pretty silly?
Well, okay if you want to get Linux running on it however, as many of my friends on IRC said they ran Linux on the ibook/powerbook and they ran into a few problems. Mostly about X. I stick to OS X Panther using fink/opendarwin packages.
Anyway, it is up to everyone what they like to run on their machine(s) =) I think I was a bit dumb saying it is 'pretty silly'.
If you ever decided to get a ibook, go to John Lewis to test those ibook out. I dunno where you are but you could try out my powerbook ;)
No thanks - I have a 15" powerbook G4 here.
I was referring to the other person. I sent the last mail in a hurry. I got a G4 12" powerbook (Rev a). I would believe you got the TiBook right?
C
On 13 Dec 2003, at 19:12, Craig wrote:
Well, okay if you want to get Linux running on it however, as many of my friends on IRC said they ran Linux on the ibook/powerbook and they ran into a few problems. Mostly about X. I stick to OS X Panther using fink/opendarwin packages.
"Modem troubles aside, the iBook makes a fine platform for running Linux." - http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/03/29/ibook_linux.html
I would of course suggest OS X, except the request was specifically for a laptop to run linux on.
I would believe you got the TiBook right?
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index15.html
To quote superlatives: Fully loaded, jaw-dropping, stunning, sleek, coveted, full-featured, elegantly engineered, powerful, most advanced, off-the-charts, futuristic, breakthrough, screamingly fast, tremendous wallop, sizzling, turbocharged, cutting-edge, perfect, legendary, versatile.
I'd actually recommend any linux fan to try one out. It's like linux, but better.
A.
On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 01:50:17AM +0000, Andrew Savory wrote:
http://www.apple.com/powerbook/index15.html
To quote superlatives: Fully loaded, jaw-dropping, stunning, sleek, coveted, full-featured, elegantly engineered, powerful, most advanced, off-the-charts, futuristic, breakthrough, screamingly fast, tremendous wallop, sizzling, turbocharged, cutting-edge, perfect, legendary, versatile.
I'd actually recommend any linux fan to try one out. It's like linux, but better.
My experience of using and working with Mac OS X gave me the impression of it being a very very big hack :)
Anyhow I like Linux, and would quite happily buy an iBook but as there is no support for the wireless lan in Linux so even if I tried Mac OS X and then decided I didn't like it I couldn't run my current OS on it.
Close, but no cigar.
Adam
Someone recently wrote regarding MacOS X:
I'd actually recommend any linux fan to try one out. It's like linux, but better.
and someone else replied:
My experience of using and working with Mac OS X gave me the impression of it being a very very big hack :)
Neither of these are true, and I'd just like to set the record straight.
To present my credentials, I've been using Linux since pre-v1 days and MacOS X for about six months, both mostly on laptops. (I still have what I believe is the first ThinkPad running Linux in the corner of my office, a 33MHz 486 job.) I migrated to the Mac for the longer battery life, the video editing software, and the relative ease of driving data projectors -- I present most of my lectures this way.
MacOS X is based around a Mach kernel with outer layers from 4.4bsd. So it's as much of a Unix box as Linux, and there's no hackery involved at all. I'm pleased to be able to report that the system is even more solid then Linux: one apparent system hang in six months, and when I read Apple's documentation carefully, I realized that it wasn't actually hung. (Hint: don't plug in a USB mouse while the machine is suspended.)
The native GUI stuff, Aqua, is based around display PDF. People who've been around long enough to remember NeWS and its display PostScript engine will probably be experiencing a warm glow at this point, as it was a better windowing system than X in almost every respect. But it's not the first time the better solution has lost out.
The latest MacOS release does support X and it works fairly well, though cutting and pasting between X and non-X windows is painful. Most of the stuff I know and love is available on the Net if it's not in MacOS; however, it's fair to say that the range of free software is much less than Debian or Gentoo. There's also a community of Unix- and X-oriented people who respond to pleas for help and advice.
It's not difficult to compile most things up from source if it's not available in compiled form. The only thing I've failed with is lush (lush.sf.net). Compiling things that use OpenGL is a bit messy, as one has to use "frameworks" and link against the Objective C run-time; but once the incantation has been discovered, it's just a question of bunging it in a Makefile.
So, MacOS isn't Linux but it is Unix. People who are terminal-oriented can migrate to it with little trouble. It's a good platform for people who spend a lot of time on the move as the battery life is good, >3 hours on a machine roughly equivalent to a 2GHz Intel processor, yet weighing about 2Kg.
I'm much happier with my AlBook12 than I was with a Sony Picturebook, a Fujitsu-Siemens P-2020, and various IBM and (ugh) Dell laptops.
..Adrian
Hi,
On 15 Dec 2003, at 09:51, Adrian Clark wrote:
Someone recently wrote regarding MacOS X:
I'd actually recommend any linux fan to try one out. It's like linux, but better.
Neither of these are true, and I'd just like to set the record straight.
<snip 6 positive paragraphs and one marginally negative paragraph />
Ok, so given your rampant advocacy of OS X, how would you say it's not true that "it's like linux, but better"? ;-)
(Seriously folks: if you spend 8+ hours a day in front of a computer, do yourselves a favour and get an Apple. You may as well _enjoy_ those 8+ hours. Every linux user I met who switched has found it a positive move.)
A.
On 2003-12-15 09:51:39 +0000 Adrian Clark alien@essex.ac.uk wrote:
MacOS X is based around a Mach kernel with outer layers from 4.4bsd. So it's as much of a Unix box as Linux, and there's no hackery involved at all.
I thought part of the "hackery" often shouted about was making the Mach microkernel into something more like a monolithic kernel.
display PostScript engine will probably be experiencing a warm glow at this point, as it was a better windowing system than X in almost every respect.
Again, I thought part of the reason it lost out was that X had far superior networking support, although that hasn't really been as important as people thought it would be.
Is there any reason why Display PDF is better than Display PostScript?
On Friday 12 December 2003 23:20, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Hi all,
I am looking for a new laptop and need a few suggestions...
works with Linux really nicely (and without resorting to non-free drivers).
So no Intel Centrino machines then.
half decent gfx that don't use system ram
Rules out 80% of Compaqs.
3 year warranty
And some Toshibas.
Extra points would be awarded for having a long battery life
and there goes most of the Dell range (the ones with decent Graphics, unless you run two batteries).
nipple and a trackpad would be exemplary.
I think only Tosh, Dell and some IBM machines have both.
Any suggestions?
What are Sony's like on Linux these days ?, I had a Vaio at my old job that ran Mandrake 7 point something like a dream, had a 2nd battery in place of the CDRom and I could run 7-8 hours.
My only complaint with Sony is spares availability can be a bit flaky out of warranty. And the early Vaio's used to litterally fall apart.
On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 12:16:12AM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
What are Sony's like on Linux these days ?, I had a Vaio at my old job that ran Mandrake 7 point something like a dream, had a 2nd battery in place of the CDRom and I could run 7-8 hours.
My only complaint with Sony is spares availability can be a bit flaky out of warranty. And the early Vaio's used to litterally fall apart.
I have heard really bad things about Sony support, in that you have to post the laptops to Belgium! for warranty support and it can be up to 6 weeks to get your laptop back. What I am upgrading from is a vaio picturebook and that has been reliable enough apart from the hard disk dying about 20 minutes out of warranty and the battery dying about 18 months out of warranty.
Looks like I am still looking at Dell, unless I can figure a way to get wireless in an iBook working :-/
Adam
On Saturday 13 December 2003 12:02, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
I have heard really bad things about Sony support, in that you have to post the laptops to Belgium! for warranty support and it can be up to 6 weeks to get your laptop back.
Not had any direct experience of Sony Warranties on Laptops, but recently I had to deal with a dud Sony Projector.
It was one of the most bizarre (but remarkably efficient) operations I have been through with a manufacturer.
Called in the faulty unit (if you know the right numbers you can bypass 1st line support).
An empty box was delivered the next day ! complete with a small pack of parcel tape and some packing instructions. So I packed the projector in the box and called the number in the instructions when it was ready.
3 hours later a TNT courier turned up (how the hell do Sony get TNT to respond that quickly) took it away.
Exactly 10 days later we had the projector back, Note this was the same unit fixed, not a refurb replacement.
Several things struck me about this, not least of which the attention to detail, providing the packing tape is priceless !. Nothing was left to chance and sometimes I get the urge to break another Sony unit just to go through the whole quite surreal experience again.
Compaq/HP are pretty good now, better if you are dealing with them through a HP partner. As a partner we can get most things on advance replacement.
I am looking for a new laptop and need a few suggestions...
Brief mention in current Linux Format LXF48: laptops with either suse pre-installed or no OS are available from Transtec (German company with UK distributor) http://www.transtec.co.uk (or http://www.transtec.de)
Website shows a variety of Asus laptops.
Centrino support may be possible using a loader from Linuxant http://www.linuxant.com/driverloader but that may not appeal to you as it means using windows drivers.
HTH Syd
On Sat, Dec 13, 2003 at 12:56:50PM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
suse pre-installed or no OS are available from Transtec (German company with UK distributor) http://www.transtec.co.uk (or http://www.transtec.de)
Website shows a variety of Asus laptops.
Oooh, I forgot about Transtec. I have bought kit from them in the past which was pretty good imho, although the quality of cases on rack mount and desktops could be a bit dodgy but overall they were good kit. I think I will take a good look at the Asus laptops as they certainly appear to have a good spec.
Centrino support may be possible using a loader from Linuxant http://www.linuxant.com/driverloader but that may not appeal to you as it means using windows drivers.
There is also http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/ which does the same thing and is free software, built in wireless isn't a major issue as I have a pcmcia card so if the laptop has a slot then it will be no problem :)
Thanks Adam
Centrino support may be possible using a loader from Linuxant http://www.linuxant.com/driverloader but that may not appeal to you as it means using windows drivers.
There is also http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/ which does the same thing and is free software, built in wireless isn't a major issue as I have a pcmcia card so if the laptop has a slot then it will be no problem :)
True, although IIUIC using a wrapper makes it possible to use faster access (brain going soggy but I think it's called 802.11g or 54g for short, 54Mbps access) for which AFAIK no linux drivers yet exist. So could be worth a look sometime?
Syd
My chance to boast about my new laptop.
I just bought a Dell Latitude X300 on eBay, it cost me 750 GBP.
It's refurbished with a two scratches on the bottom, and a US keyboard, it didn't come with any warrenty. I think the price of buying it new from Dell would be close to 1400 GBP with VAT.
Subsystem Status Hardware / Comment ----------------- ------ ------------------ USB Working IEEE 1394 Untested Ricoh R5C552 Modem Untested Keyboard Working Volume and brightness controls don't work Touchpad Working Synaptics Touchpad, Sensor: 37 Video Working Intel 855GM, 3D not working PCMCIA Working Ricoh RL5c476 II SD Card slot Not working Ricoh RL5c476 II Ethernet Working Broadcom NetXtreme BCM5705M Gigabit Ethernet Only Gigabit with the docking station Wireless Ethernet Not working Broadcom 802.11g/802.11b Bluetooth Working Battery status Working Internal USB connection AC status Working Optical Storage Working Hard disk Working Audio Working AC97 CPU Scaling Working
The laptop weighs 1.29kg, or 2.9 pounds, almost 1kg lighter than the Apple iBook G4 which I was thinking of buying.
Only 20mm thick. Battery lasts 2.5 hours, which is a shame. I can buy a larger battery for 68 UKP on eBay, but that will add somewhat to the size and weight. Screen is 12.1", no dead pixels. Two USB 2 ports, the DVD/CD-RW drive is external and plugs into one of them, one firewire port, IrDA, full size VGA port, no serial, parallel or PS/2. The machine is very quiet, I can't hear anything from it.
Processor is a Pentium-M 1.2 GHz, 256MB of RAM, Hard disk is 30GB.
I'm using a Jiffy bag which cost me 80p for padding when I carry it. Just keeping it in my regular rucksack.
It's a shame the WiFi and SD aren't working, there's a project on SourceForge to write a WiFi driver, but haven't found anybody working on the SD. For now I've got a wifi card in the PCMCIA card slot.
So far a great laptop and I'd recommend it to anybody.
It's a shame the WiFi and SD aren't working, there's a project on SourceForge to write a WiFi driver
Which chipset? If it is the Atheros 802.11g then dig around on the MadWiFi Wiki http://madwifiwiki.thewebhost.de/wiki/ for more info about the madwifi driver.
Specifically for installing/configuring in mandrake 9.2 using a LevelOne WNC-0300 card: http://madwifiwiki.thewebhost.de/wiki/Ath0OnMandrake92
Dig around for the driver and other info.
HTH Syd
PS You can get a Thinkpad T23 for a similar price with DVD-reader/CD-RW combo, working sound, nic, volume keys, screen light, hibernation/suspend, USB (1 not 2 tho'), PCMCIA, modem and over two years' warranty. S3 savage video but no 3D. No bluetooth or built-in wi-fi.
On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 11:29:00AM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
It's a shame the WiFi and SD aren't working, there's a project on SourceForge to write a WiFi driver
Which chipset? If it is the Atheros 802.11g then dig around on the MadWiFi Wiki http://madwifiwiki.thewebhost.de/wiki/ for more info about the madwifi driver.
My mail said Broadcom, if you looking for me to be more specific, Broadcom 4301 and the attempts at a driver can be found at http://linux-bcom4301.sourceforge.net/
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adam＠thebowery.co.uk -
Adrian Clark -
Andrew Savory -
Craig -
Edward Betts -
edward＠debian.org
-
MJ Ray -
Syd Hancock -
Wayne Stallwood