HALLO THE GROUP Ahem. Hi all.. After discovering the ALUG at the UEA last Sunday - I've been volunteered into getting something going for the O'Reilly books ALUG (via David) now hold. I wanted to borrow the book on MySQL and mSQL - so :) I have been asked to write a system. Oh No! Who me? Me Steve. Me much too much to do (tax, company returns, commuting, 2 houses to buy, holiday someday) but then I want to explore MySQL. Two aspects - 1. The System We Want We've some books (6) a) do we want more? How will be get them? b) do we want to loan other resources (CD's, hardware etc)? c) do we want to loan private as well as ALUG stuff? (perhaps an option) d) do we want a central repository or do things wander around? e) Factor X - the unspoken expectation coming to haunt me later. All the above shape how the database will be designed, data lifecycles & that sort of stuff. Ideas Appreciated, especially if they reduce work. [Only? :) ] 2. Practicalities a) Don't want to put effort into something not used... so start small. b) IF it's to be web based, we'll need a host service supporting MySQL - do we have this?? c) Me No Web Wizard ! d) IF not web based - um, how's it going to work?? e) it's getting late & I've not had my UT fix yet. Anyone want to give a hand / interested in getting something going? Bye! Steve PS will post some more thoughts re design & features a bit later.
Why not try looking at www.freshmeat.net as a starting point. They have all sorts of linux software, most it under GPL. FWIW Mark W.
-----Original Message----- From: alug-admin@stu.uea.ac.uk [mailto:alug-admin@stu.uea.ac.uk]On Behalf Of brodders@cwcom.net Sent: 02 May 2001 20:45 To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Cc: brodders@mcmail.com Subject: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
HALLO THE GROUP
Ahem. Hi all..
After discovering the ALUG at the UEA last Sunday - I've been volunteered into getting something going for the O'Reilly books ALUG (via David) now hold. I wanted to borrow the book on MySQL and mSQL - so :) I have been asked to write a system.
Oh No!
Who me? Me Steve. Me much too much to do (tax, company returns, commuting, 2 houses to buy, holiday someday) but then I want to explore MySQL.
Two aspects -
1. The System We Want
We've some books (6) a) do we want more? How will be get them? b) do we want to loan other resources (CD's, hardware etc)? c) do we want to loan private as well as ALUG stuff? (perhaps an option) d) do we want a central repository or do things wander around? e) Factor X - the unspoken expectation coming to haunt me later.
All the above shape how the database will be designed, data lifecycles & that sort of stuff. Ideas Appreciated, especially if they reduce work. [Only? :) ]
2. Practicalities
a) Don't want to put effort into something not used... so start small. b) IF it's to be web based, we'll need a host service supporting MySQL - do we have this?? c) Me No Web Wizard ! d) IF not web based - um, how's it going to work?? e) it's getting late & I've not had my UT fix yet.
Anyone want to give a hand / interested in getting something going?
Bye!
Steve
PS will post some more thoughts re design & features a bit later.
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brodders@cwcom.net wrote:
Anyone want to give a hand / interested in getting something going?
We have a web based library at Zeus that was knocked together by a developer who was bored one day, It Supports the owner of a book its current location a link to Amazon so you can see the cover and also a link to bookbrain to get the best prices! I will have a word tomorrow and see if A. It is open source B. It needs any special sauce to make it run I will get back to you offlist when I have spoken to this guy. Adam
A bit of further research reveals... http://www.koha.org/ Possibilities? Mark W.
-----Original Message----- From: alug-admin@stu.uea.ac.uk [mailto:alug-admin@stu.uea.ac.uk]On Behalf Of brodders@cwcom.net Sent: 02 May 2001 20:45 To: alug@stu.uea.ac.uk Cc: brodders@mcmail.com Subject: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
HALLO THE GROUP
Ahem. Hi all..
After discovering the ALUG at the UEA last Sunday - I've been volunteered into getting something going for the O'Reilly books ALUG (via David) now hold. I wanted to borrow the book on MySQL and mSQL - so :) I have been asked to write a system.
Oh No!
Who me? Me Steve. Me much too much to do (tax, company returns, commuting, 2 houses to buy, holiday someday) but then I want to explore MySQL.
Two aspects -
1. The System We Want
We've some books (6) a) do we want more? How will be get them? b) do we want to loan other resources (CD's, hardware etc)? c) do we want to loan private as well as ALUG stuff? (perhaps an option) d) do we want a central repository or do things wander around? e) Factor X - the unspoken expectation coming to haunt me later.
All the above shape how the database will be designed, data lifecycles & that sort of stuff. Ideas Appreciated, especially if they reduce work. [Only? :) ]
2. Practicalities
a) Don't want to put effort into something not used... so start small. b) IF it's to be web based, we'll need a host service supporting MySQL - do we have this?? c) Me No Web Wizard ! d) IF not web based - um, how's it going to work?? e) it's getting late & I've not had my UT fix yet.
Anyone want to give a hand / interested in getting something going?
Bye!
Steve
PS will post some more thoughts re design & features a bit later.
_______________________________________________ alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list Send list replies to alug@stu.uea.ac.uk http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug See the website for instructions on digest or unsub!
On Wed, May 02, 2001 at 08:45:11PM +0100, brodders@cwcom.net wrote:
HALLO THE GROUP
Ahem. Hi all..
After discovering the ALUG at the UEA last Sunday - I've been volunteered into getting something going for the O'Reilly books ALUG (via David) now hold. I wanted to borrow the book on MySQL and mSQL - so :) I have been asked to write a system.
Oh No!
Who me? Me Steve. Me much too much to do (tax, company returns, commuting, 2 houses to buy, holiday someday) but then I want to explore MySQL.
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL ;) Can I suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system that actually works such as PostgreSQL. MySQL is alright, as long as things are simple, PostgreSQL is *much* nicer (at least in my opinion, anyone else want to comment ;) Just my 2p worth, Brett
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL ;) Can I suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this.... I agree with Brett. He has a good point. If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, um, isn't. Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these? Anyway, enough with the random thoughts. Happy to help or advise if anyone wants. Andrew. -- All views are my own, who else would want them?
Andrew Savory wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL ;) Can I suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this....
I agree with Brett. He has a good point.
If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, um, isn't.
yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! hhmm nice and resilient ;).. Postgress gets my vote...
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these?
Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... although I have to admit that I like php ;)... Sz -- Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/
--- Neill Newman <neill@entora.co.uk> wrote:
Andrew Savory wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL
;) Can I
suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this....
I agree with Brett. He has a good point.
If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, um, isn't.
yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! hhmm nice and resilient ;).. Postgress gets my vote...
So we have the holywar about Which language to write it in, now we have a second holy war over which RDBMS we use, couple this with the XML/HTML war and wow! Can we get Vi vs EMacs in as well?
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is
nice and
quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these?
Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... although I have to admit that I like php ;)...
Perl? I never quite got to grips with perl, I have tried but I just don't understand it. What are its pros and cons? How about SmallTalk as the language? or maybe something even more obscour, like ML or Prolog, will they do it? Thanks D
Sz
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I think it best to program it in raw assembler and store the data on a 1.44 floppy in EBCDIC. FWIW. Mark W. :-D PS. As per my original email on this. Why do people want to re-invent the wheel? There's a package on freshmeat that could be taken, customised and whacked on a linux box in say... a couple of hours. :-O Am I missing something here? Is the objective a programming exercise or to get a library system running? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Freeman" <david_freeman@rocketmail.com> To: <alug@stu.uea.ac.uk> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:08 PM Subject: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... --- Neill Newman <neill@entora.co.uk> wrote:
Andrew Savory wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL
;) Can I
suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system that actually works such as PostgreSQL.
*sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this....
I agree with Brett. He has a good point.
If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, um, isn't.
yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! hhmm nice and resilient ;).. Postgress gets my vote...
So we have the holywar about Which language to write it in, now we have a second holy war over which RDBMS we use, couple this with the XML/HTML war and wow! Can we get Vi vs EMacs in as well?
Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is
nice and
quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these?
Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... although I have to admit that I like php ;)...
Perl? I never quite got to grips with perl, I have tried but I just don't understand it. What are its pros and cons? How about SmallTalk as the language? or maybe something even more obscour, like ML or Prolog, will they do it? Thanks D
Sz
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--- Mark Wilkinson <mark@wiggis.com> wrote:
I think it best to program it in raw assembler and store the data on a 1.44 floppy in EBCDIC.
I take it that in true style this will be 68000 series assembler :o) /me has learnt z80 assembler and will learn PIC assembler.
FWIW.
Mark W.
:-D
PS. As per my original email on this. Why do people want to re-invent the wheel? There's a package on freshmeat that could be taken, customised and whacked on a linux box in say... a couple of hours. :-O Am I missing something here? Is the objective a programming exercise or to get a library system running?
Shoot this man for being boring :o) you should know all projects start as a debate about features, language and then decide if something else does the job. Thanks D <snip> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
On Thu, 3 May 2001, Mark Wilkinson wrote:
PS. As per my original email on this. Why do people want to re-invent the wheel? There's a package on freshmeat that could be taken, customised and whacked on a linux box in say... a couple of hours. :-O Am I missing something here? Is the objective a programming exercise or to get a library system running?
Thats exactly what I was thinking, I was going to get us a working system that I know works but everyone seems to want to overcomplicate these things as usual! but I'll let them get on with it. Adam
So we have the holywar about Which language to write it in, now we have a second holy war over which RDBMS we use, couple this with the XML/HTML war and wow!
Can we get Vi vs EMacs in as well?
Ahhh, hell, why not. Its obvious that vim is the best of the crop, an improved version of vi with syntax highlighting and other niceties. Although, if you ask Mr Ray, he will undoubtedly tell you that xemacs is by far the best thing since sliced bread...but then, he's a stats person, what does he know <eg> Cheers, Brett
--- brodders@cwcom.net wrote:
HALLO THE GROUP
Ahem. Hi all..
After discovering the ALUG at the UEA last Sunday - I've been volunteered into getting something going for the O'Reilly books ALUG (via David) now hold. I wanted to borrow the book on MySQL and mSQL - so :) I have been asked to write a system.
Oh No!
Who me? Me Steve. Me much too much to do (tax, company returns, commuting, 2 houses to buy, holiday someday) but then I want to explore MySQL.
Yes you, and no we don't want any excuses or I will start moning about 2 college assignmenst and exam revision :o) but tonights module at college has been on Data Analysis and Database Design, something I seam to have a nack for, so here goes.
Two aspects -
1. The System We Want
We've some books (6) a) do we want more? How will be get them? b) do we want to loan other resources (CD's, hardware etc)? c) do we want to loan private as well as ALUG stuff? (perhaps an option) d) do we want a central repository or do things wander around? e) Factor X - the unspoken expectation coming to haunt me later.
All the above shape how the database will be designed, data lifecycles & that sort of stuff. Ideas Appreciated, especially if they reduce work. [Only? :) ]
Systems analysis, good fun. the data base could do with the following tables. user(member no., name, address, phone, email, homepage) resource(resource number, resource type, author, publish date, details, home location) loan(member no., resource number, start date, returned) -no primary key, member no. and resource number = composite ke the first column is the primary key unless other wise mentioned. This isn't the greatest design nor is it the worst, but I'm doing it in my head and trying to normalise at the same time, which is difficult at this time of night, any query's drop me a line. and as I feel in the mode the data types for the above are user( member no. = integer, all other fields = text char(sensible number depending on field)) resource( resource number = integer, resource type = string, author = string, publish date = date, details = string, location = string) loan(member no. and resource number = foriegn keys - see relevent tables for type, start date = date, returned = boolean)
2. Practicalities
a) Don't want to put effort into something not used... so start small.
Exactly. It will be used
b) IF it's to be web based, we'll need a host service supporting MySQL - do we have this??
I believe the isp uklinux.net provides home areas with perl and mysql accounts, see there web page for details.
c) Me No Web Wizard !
Me not wizard, but got the basic idea, give me a shout if you need a hand, although a perl wizard would be useful at this point.
d) IF not web based - um, how's it going to work??
Badly? We want solutions not problems, ne ideas?
e) it's getting late & I've not had my UT fix yet.
Me to.
Anyone want to give a hand / interested in getting something going?
NE questions drop me a line. We also need to consider who has access to change/add things? Thanks D
Bye!
Steve
PS will post some more thoughts re design & features a bit later.
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d) IF not web based - um, how's it going to work??
Badly? We want solutions not problems, ne ideas?
/me gets sick... OK - it could be done as a java server process on the webserver/some server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be well in the world... me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta stuff before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java talking to CGIs). Cheers, Brett
--- Brett Parker <brettp@stu.uea.ac.uk> wrote:
d) IF not web based - um, how's it going to work??
Badly? We want solutions not problems, ne ideas?
/me gets sick...
/me dodges the digestive pyrotechnics /me thinks of an idea. <fx action=eureka> How about a java program written to utilise the Java Database connectivity (JDBC) to get the data from mysql. If using Java 1.2 with Swing a really nice UI can be had, if you create the DB I'll have a play with the Java stuff (if I get the JVM to install that is). Failing that a web based system siting on apache on the local machine but only accessable by the librarian - the one with it on there machine. Its an idea.
OK - it could be done as a java server process on the webserver/some server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be well in the world...
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta stuff before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java talking to CGIs).
/me = C and Java apprentice programmer and obeyer of the KISS principle Thanks D PS one of these days I will learn a proper language AKA Lisp and write some decent type programs.
Cheers,
Brett
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On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 15:24 -0700, David Freeman wrote:
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
Depends what you're doing. HTML is wonderful as the final dressing before it hits the user's web browser, but sucks for anything other than that. Being obsessive linux hackers, I'd expect us to massively overengineer a solution using XML and a publishing engine (AxKit if we're using Apache/Perl, Cocoon if we're using Java?) so that we can access the site using our browsers, phones, PDAs, sonic screwdrivers, divining rods... Andrew. -- All views are my own, who else would want them?
--- Andrew Savory <a.savory@btinternet.com> wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 15:24 -0700, David Freeman wrote:
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
Depends what you're doing. HTML is wonderful as the final dressing before it hits the user's web browser, but sucks for anything other than that. Being obsessive linux hackers, I'd expect us to massively overengineer a solution using XML and a publishing engine (AxKit if we're using Apache/Perl, Cocoon if we're using Java?) so that we can access the site using our browsers, phones, PDAs, sonic screwdrivers, divining rods...
ESR said that you can't call your self a hacker till other hackers call you one, based on the above can I call my self a Hacker yet? So this would be what owen was saying about PHP on sunday about content and markup being mixed together, Whilst I can see some of these evils, doesn't CSS attempt to help? Thanks D
Andrew.
-- All views are my own, who else would want them?
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On 03-May-01 Andrew Savory wrote:
On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 15:24 -0700, David Freeman wrote:
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
Depends what you're doing. HTML is wonderful as the final dressing before it hits the user's web browser, but sucks for anything other than that. Being obsessive linux hackers, I'd expect us to massively overengineer a solution using XML and a publishing engine (AxKit if we're using Apache/Perl, Cocoon if we're using Java?) so that we can access the site using our browsers, phones, PDAs, sonic screwdrivers, divining rods...
Andrew.
I am not a great fan of perl as I dont like the idea of a write only language C++ is hard enough to read, and belive java is a very well designed language. I just checked out AxKit, (been a long time since I last saw its web page) and I must say it looks very promising to me and posibly simplere to use than Cocoon, but having got a small bunch on this list I should like to ask who has used what. AxKit has a very rich design, and I must admit that I do like the perl XSL formating sysstem they have created. I shall download it today. PHP would do this job well and I see no reason not to use it if the PHP guys want to write this project as it is posible to do and will get some one a job as a PHP worker, however XML is the future of web server engines of that I am sure. PHP does support everything we need on this project. My overall attitude is KISS ( Keep is Simple Stupid). I also wish to point out that many of us havce jobs and so little time to work on this project. For this reason I think that libary system which is available open source Koala (or what ever it was called) is probably the best option. Still PHP is fast and easy to hack a web page in and we do have enough knowlage and experiance for this language/ just my thoughts Owen
David Freeman wrote:
OK - it could be done as a java server process on the webserver/some server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be well in the world...
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is very good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant and markup munged together, not nice!! html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is worth the effort...
me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta stuff before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java talking to CGIs).
/me = C and Java apprentice programmer and obeyer of the KISS principle
/me = C, Java, UML, OO, C++, Perl, PHP hacker.. I was taught OO by a Grady Booch Phd student ;) so if you need a hand with the design/implementation then give me a shout, (I've been programming in Java, both commercially and academically, since 1995 ;)...
Thanks
D
PS one of these days I will learn a proper language AKA Lisp and write some decent type programs.
aarrgghhhh no, lisp is evil ;).. *duck* Sz -- Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/
--- Neill Newman <neill@entora.co.uk> wrote:
David Freeman wrote:
OK - it could be done as a java server process on the webserver/some server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be well in the world...
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is very good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant and markup munged together, not nice!! html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is worth the effort...
XML has always appeared as a very complex thing which I haven't needed to use for my very simple web site! Can any one recommend a good primer for XML.
me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta
stuff
before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java talking to CGIs).
/me = C and Java apprentice programmer and obeyer of the KISS principle
/me = C, Java, UML, OO, C++, Perl, PHP hacker.. I was taught OO by a Grady Booch Phd student ;) so if you need a hand with the design/implementation then give me a shout, (I've been programming in Java, both commercially and academically, since 1995 ;)...
/me = self tought with far to many habits But I've just written my first kernel MODULE!!! and it work, which was a big surprise
Thanks D PS one of these days I will learn a proper language AKA Lisp and write some decent type programs.
aarrgghhhh no, lisp is evil ;).. *duck*
Yes, it may be evil, but the darker side is very appealing. Just like small talk seams appeally. A OO language where everything is an object, it just makes sense, the way the world works is to pass messages (instructions, sentences etc...) between objects (humans, animals, objects etc...) ONe language I don't want to learn is C++. I like the quotes on the smalltalk website "I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind." � Alan Kay and my personally favourites "C++ : an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog" � unknown "Claiming Java is easier than C++ is like saying that K2 is shorter than Everest." � Larry O'Brien (editor, Software Development) I Am amazed that there is such a holy war about programming languages, particully the language people first learnt was there favourite and all others are programmed as if they were using the first language. Thanks D
Sz
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On 03-May-01 David Freeman wrote:
--- Neill Newman <neill@entora.co.uk> wrote:
David Freeman wrote:
OK - it could be done as a java server process on the webserver/some server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be well in the world...
XML != nice. HTML does the job fine.
hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is very good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant and markup munged together, not nice!! html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is worth the effort...
XML has always appeared as a very complex thing which I haven't needed to use for my very simple web site! Can any one recommend a good primer for XML.
I should get mozilla (IE is better for debug perposes) and then think about starting learning XML. Next go to www.xml.com they have loads of resorces, and look up XML ans XSL tutorials. IGNOR every other bit of the XML bandwaggon untill you have made a few XSL style sheets for some XML documents, otherwise you will be overwelmed with information. Dont get a book they are alway out of date by the time they are published, at least untill all the standards are being rattled down. Next look at the DOM, then look at SAX, maybe design your own implementations and comapare your designs with real ones. What will shoke you is how simple it all is and how much sence it makes when you play with it all for a while. Regardes Owen Synge
On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 09:02:08AM -0700, David Freeman wrote:
But I've just written my first kernel MODULE!!! and it work, which was a big surprise
What does it do?
One language I don't want to learn is C++.
I am interested as to why you should say that. I get the impression that there are many people who think that C++ isn't a terribly pure language or that it doesn't have a particularly clean design. It is, however, very sucessful. I don't think there is any doubt that a language such as C++ is a compromise as C was before it, but compromise isn't necessarily bad. Considering C, I would suggest that without a language like C there would be no portable OS like Unix and Linux. Writing in Assembler would give the required level of run time efficiency and the ability to talk to the hardware when required but not the portability, and just about every other language would have been too inefficient, or unable to access the hardware at the required level. When it comes to the emergence of C++ I would suggest that run time efficiency was still a concern, but there was the added incentive to use C++ - compatibility with C. As time goes by, run time efficiency is becoming less of a concern and p-code and interpreted languages are now quite realistic for "serious" applications - even so, someone in our office was complaining today how much slower the Oracle GUI tools written in Java (8.1.6) are than the previous ones (7.3.4) not written in Java (I would guess at C++ but that is just a guess).
I Am amazed that there is such a holy war about programming languages, particully the language people first learnt was there favourite and all others are programmed as if they were using the first language.
I'm not sure that this is the case. The first language I learnt was BASIC on the Sinclair ZX81. All variable names had to be kept short, there were no blocks, no named functions or procedures, IF statements couldn't have an ELSE part, there was no DO WHILE or REPEAT UNTIL so there had to be lots of GOTOs and GOSUBs. I would not be caught programming now in the way that I had to for that version of basic. I think it may be the case though that the general methodology that one first learns becomes the default. Those people whose first taste was with procedural programming may always find that more natural than OO or the kind of thinking required for Advanced use of SQL. Steve.
On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 10:11:05AM +0100, Neill Newman wrote:
hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is very good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant and markup munged together, not nice!! html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is worth the effort...
I have seen a couple of presentations that compare XML with HTML and emphasise that XML is concerned with contents and HTML with presentation. What I have more trouble understanding is how XML differs from SGML. SGML appears already to be extensible - you define as many or as few tags as you like, and how they are allowed to be combined, using a DTD. An SGML processor can convert a document into a presentable form using a stylesheet that maps tags into presentation actions or properties. Could someone enlighten me? Steve.
participants (10)
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Adam Bower -
Andrew Savory -
Brett Parker -
brodders＠cwcom.net -
David Freeman -
Mark Wilkinson -
Mark Wilkinson -
Neill Newman -
oms101＠freeuk.com -
Steve Fosdick