Last I was at the forum in Norwich, people seemed to like the small meeting notices, so I've turned them into templates, plugged them into a script and produced ones for the other venues: http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=NCH for Norwich http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=MID for Syleham
It's fairly easy to add other venues as details appear, or update the above. Please get them out into shops, windows, noticeboards, etc.
Last I was at the forum in Norwich, people seemed to like the small meeting notices, so I've turned them into templates, plugged them into a script and produced ones for the other venues: http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=NCH for Norwich http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=MID for Syleham
They look good!
1. I have been able to extract these but for the benefit of novices like myself would someone please advise on the simplest way to view, print and modify them.
I have tried various apps (Ark, GhostView, KGhostView) with varying degrees of success. I have managed to print but, as above, would like to know more. I am using KDE but happy to use the command line.
2. Does gzip always remove the source archive when extracting? I checked 'man gzip' but could not see an appropriate switch but it is a bit early in the morning.
3. Can .ps files be easily edited?
If not then perhaps there is a case for making these files available in something like an OpenOffice.org writer format which is increasingly-widely available - no idea if it is an open or proprietary format though.
Waiting to have the error of my ways explained to me, as ever :-)
Syd
On 2003-11-22 08:23:27 +0000 Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com wrote:
I have been able to extract these but for the benefit of novices like myself would someone please advise on the simplest way to view, print and modify them.
View: load it in gv, or kghostview, or gnome-gv. GSPdf seems to need them decompressing, which surprised me. I'll fix that when I get chance.
Print: probably can print it from the above tools, or from the command line (if an lpr-type printer program is around) use: zcat file.ps.gz | lpr
Modify: well, they're generated by a php script, so I can update the generated ones on the server on request. I will also upload the LaTeX+PS source for the cards Real Soon Now. You can probably run the downloaded file through ps2edit and open it with some vector editors too. Gimp should load it straight away, but that's only a bitmap editor, so won't look as nice if saved. The fonts used are the Nimbus collection, which I think are either supplied with ghostscript or downloaded from gimp.org.
Does gzip always remove the source archive when extracting?
I think so, but you don't always need to do this.
If not then perhaps there is a case for making these files available in something like an OpenOffice.org writer format which is increasingly-widely available - no idea if it is an open or proprietary format though.
I still don't have OO.org installed here yet and I wouldn't know how to set labels and vector art in it, while I know LaTeX's graphicx and label packages quite well, so it was a fairly quick job. I'll probably put it on the laptop soon. Will someone have a recent CD of OO.org at Syleham for copying? I'm still waiting for the new hard disks to arrive here.
On Saturday 22 Nov 2003 1:10 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-22 08:23:27 +0000 Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com wrote:
I have been able to extract these but for the benefit of novices like myself would someone please advise on the simplest way to view, print and modify them.
View: load it in gv, or kghostview, or gnome-gv. GSPdf seems to need them decompressing, which surprised me. I'll fix that when I get chance.
Thanks - I had simply assumed that I'd need to decompress them first. Both gv and GhostView display them correctly, KGhostView has problems (the UK map, title and first line are missing leaving the penguin sitting over the word Syleham).
Print: probably can print it from the above tools, or from the command line (if an lpr-type printer program is around) use: zcat file.ps.gz | lpr
Yes, that's fine. Even KGhostView prints it correctly although the screen display is incorrect.
Cheers Syd
On 2003-11-22 14:23:13 +0000 Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com wrote:
Yes, that's fine. Even KGhostView prints it correctly although the screen display is incorrect.
I should also mention that I produced this for use on those A4 sheets that divide up into 4 A6 post cards, although they work well as small paper notices too. I really must put a web page up about this. Where are those tuits? I'll see if I find any on the bike ride.
On Thursday 20 Nov 2003 5:57 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
Last I was at the forum in Norwich, people seemed to like the small meeting notices, so I've turned them into templates, plugged them into a script and produced ones for the other venues: http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=NCH for Norwich http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=MID for Syleham
Erm, looking again at these notices, has the group's name been changed recently? Or is it a typo?
Syd
The message 200311220846.12697.syd@toufol.com from Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com contains these words:
On Thursday 20 Nov 2003 5:57 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
Last I was at the forum in Norwich, people seemed to like the small meeting notices, so I've turned them into templates, plugged them into a script and produced ones for the other venues: http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=NCH for Norwich http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=MID for Syleham
Erm, looking again at these notices, has the group's name been changed recently? Or is it a typo?
And, until I manage to get my internet software working in a Windows emulator, is there any way of viewing .ps files with the help of the Evil Umpire?
On Sat, 2003-11-22 at 10:50, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message 200311220846.12697.syd@toufol.com from Syd Hancock syd@toufol.com contains these words:
On Thursday 20 Nov 2003 5:57 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
Last I was at the forum in Norwich, people seemed to like the small meeting notices, so I've turned them into templates, plugged them into a script and produced ones for the other venues: http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=NCH for Norwich http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=MID for Syleham
Erm, looking again at these notices, has the group's name been changed recently? Or is it a typo?
And, until I manage to get my internet software working in a Windows emulator, is there any way of viewing .ps files with the help of the Evil Umpire?
You need GhostView - http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~ee5cta/ghostView/
Matt
The message 1069502464.2667.1.camel@fred.mpcontracting.co.uk from Matt Parker matt@mpcontracting.co.uk contains these words:
And, until I manage to get my internet software working in a Windows emulator, is there any way of viewing .ps files with the help of the Evil Umpire?
You need GhostView - http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~ee5cta/ghostView/
Thanks. Off to get it.
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:57:57 +0000 MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
Last I was at the forum in Norwich, people seemed to like the small meeting notices, so I've turned them into templates, plugged them into a script and produced ones for the other venues: http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=NCH for Norwich http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/cards.ps.php?loc=MID for Syleham
"Anglian LOCAL Users Group"?? oh damm!! at the last meeting I though you said "Anglian Yokels Users Group".
Sod it! got to redo all the promotional artwork again!
:oD
Keith
On 2003-11-24 23:38:28 +0000 Keith Watson kpwatson@ukfsn.org wrote:
"Anglian LOCAL Users Group"?? oh damm!! at the last meeting I though you said "Anglian Yokels Users Group".
OK, this is reacting yet again to accusations that we don't welcome things like OpenOffice.org, BSD, Hurd; and the comment I get repeatedly from a certain person I won't name that "Linux Users Group" sounds like a drug rehab project. In the past, I've suggested Anglian Linux Und Gnu, which bombed, and Anglian GNU/Linux User Group. What else? Anglian Local Users Group? Anglian Libre Unix Group? A complete acronym break and East Anglia Free and Open Source Software (EAFOSS)? Something else?
Meeting ideas suggested yesterday: OpenOffice.org tutorial/demo; GIMP tutorial; Web site maintenance; Email clients and tools; Wireless networking; Portables (palmtops etc). "Linux In Control" also mentioned (reluctantly?)
Does anyone want me to scan the drawing Paul made?
The message fcb4f388df161d351e4279bb7bd3e15a@bouncing.localnet from MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com contains these words:
OK, this is reacting yet again to accusations that we don't welcome things like OpenOffice.org, BSD, Hurd; and the comment I get repeatedly from a certain person I won't name that "Linux Users Group" sounds like a drug rehab project. In the past, I've suggested Anglian Linux Und Gnu, which bombed, and Anglian GNU/Linux User Group. What else? Anglian Local Users Group? Anglian Libre Unix Group? A complete acronym break and East Anglia Free and Open Source Software (EAFOSS)? Something else?
Linux Ube Gates mayhap?
I noticed that on your A6 notices it was billed as (Anglian) Local User Group rather than Linux User Group, but it was adequately clear from the rest of it that Linux was the driving force.
I think that Linux User Group is descriptive, succinct and memorable. What more do you need? Fine-tuning is all very well, but one doesn't want to meddle with the works too often or something will get borked.
The alledged doodling would be of little interest without the ramblings from the lunatic fringe that accompanied them. However, some of the subjects do look interesting - Gimp, wireless networking, etc...
Regards, Paul.
On Tuesday 25 November 2003 12:52 am, MJ Ray wrote:
Meeting ideas suggested yesterday: OpenOffice.org tutorial/demo; GIMP tutorial; Web site maintenance; Email clients and tools; Wireless networking; Portables (palmtops etc). "Linux In Control" also mentioned (reluctantly?)
Does anyone want me to scan the drawing Paul made?
Paul bdi-emc@ntlworld.com wrote:
The alledged doodling would be of little interest without the ramblings from the lunatic fringe that accompanied them. However, some of the subjects do look interesting - Gimp, wireless networking, etc...
Twas a mighty fine doodle, damned sure I wouldn't remember what much of it meant now though... brain like a particularly useless sieve, information keeps flowing out, damned thing ;) (then, I've just spent half a day at work trying to get Chinese encoded in UTF-8 to damned well display correctly on my linux box... oh, and something to edit it in... gotta bolt a website round it, which would be easy *IF* I could get an editor to play with it... maybe the answer is to convert it to full unicode instead, and sacrifice some goats, who knows :)
Brett.
The message 20031125204300.GB8257@dustpuppy.thehouse.home from Brett Parker brettp@users.sourceforge.net contains these words:
Twas a mighty fine doodle, damned sure I wouldn't remember what much of it meant now though... brain like a particularly useless sieve, information keeps flowing out, damned thing ;) (then, I've just spent half a day at work trying to get Chinese encoded in UTF-8 to damned well display correctly on my linux box... oh, and something to edit it in... gotta bolt a website round it, which would be easy *IF* I could get an editor to play with it... maybe the answer is to convert it to full unicode instead, and sacrifice some goats, who knows :)
If I can find Alex Chen......
But don't hold your breath, he hasn't looked into The Shed for at least sicks munce.
On 2003-11-25 20:43:00 +0000 Brett Parker brettp@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
half a day at work trying to get Chinese encoded in UTF-8 to damned well display correctly on my linux box... oh, and something to edit it in... gotta bolt a website round it, which would be easy *IF* I could get an editor to play with it...
I think the only editors I have that play properly with UTF-8 are Ink, QEmacs and Wily. VILE does a reasonable job, but you can tell that it's really confused about the number of characters (as it counts 1 of my UTF-8 characters as 2 characters sometimes). I'm sure I'm missing some UTF-8/MULE magic in Emacs and it should work, but I've not looked too closely yet. Wily needed some sacrifice before I could input UTF-8 characters, although it displayed them fine.
On 2003-11-26 11:16:41 +0000 MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
On 2003-11-25 20:43:00 +0000 Brett Parker brettp@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
half a day at work trying to get Chinese encoded in UTF-8 to damned well display correctly on my linux box... oh, and something to edit it in... gotta bolt a website round it, which would be easy *IF* I could get an editor to play with it...
I think the only editors I have that play properly with UTF-8 are Ink, QEmacs and Wily. VILE does a reasonable job, but you can tell that it's really confused about the number of characters (as it counts 1 of my UTF-8 characters as 2 characters sometimes). I'm sure I'm missing some UTF-8/MULE magic in Emacs and it should work, but I've not looked too closely yet. Wily needed some sacrifice before I could input UTF-8 characters, although it displayed them fine.
Ahh - now my only problem is that the font uxterm uses hasn't got all the characters, otherwise I'd be well away. LANG=zh_CN.UTF-8 is fun, and vim apparently appears to understand it and cheerfully display all it's stuff in chinese at me :) Maybe I should just tell it en_GB.UTF-8 :)
Cheers,
Brett
OK, this is reacting yet again to accusations that we don't welcome things like OpenOffice.org, BSD, Hurd; and the comment I get repeatedly from a certain person I won't name that "Linux Users Group" sounds like a drug rehab project. In the past, I've suggested Anglian Linux Und Gnu, which bombed, and Anglian GNU/Linux User Group. What else? Anglian Local Users Group? Anglian Libre Unix Group? A complete acronym break and East Anglia Free and Open Source Software (EAFOSS)? Something else?
I don't mind what it is called, nor can I take all the petty politics seriously [1]. Been there, done that, in other groups. Had enough of it long ago.
Those who feel strongly, change it to whatever you want if you want. As MJR puts it "who does wins".
Syd
[1] Crystallised for me when I read my first interview with RMS a year or two ago in which he said he would not link to debian.org because it was not free enough software. Hmmm.
On 1/1/1970, "Syd Hancock" syd@toufol.com wrote:
OK, this is reacting yet again to accusations that we don't welcome things like OpenOffice.org, BSD, Hurd; and the comment I
..
I don't mind what it is called, nor can I take all the petty politics seriously [1]. Been there, done that, in other groups. Had enough of it long ago.
Those who feel strongly, change it to whatever you want if you want. As MJR puts it "who does wins".
Personally I thought "Anglian Yokel Users Group" was quite OK!
[ducks and runs for cover]
:o)
Keith
On Wed, 2003-11-26 at 12:16, syd@toufol.com wrote:
Personally I thought "Anglian Yokel Users Group" was quite OK! [ducks and runs for cover]
I suggested something like AFSU : Anglian Free Sofware Users - not as good as Keith's idea though :-)
We are referred to, by at least one person, as:
The Militant farmers
*grin*
D.
On 2003-11-26 12:18:57 +0000 Daniel Silverstone dsilvers@digital-scurf.org wrote:
We are referred to, by at least one person, as: The Militant farmers
Sounds like the Norfolk Liberation Army.
I think ALUG is just great and easily pronounceable: a-lug. Though a geek militant army dose sound quite amusing. Would the meeting guidline have to be changed for The Militant Farmers:
+ Overrun an office building + Get out Distro CD's(i can see Debian and gentoo being the most popular) + Squabble about witch distro to install over the current windows install. This should include fights about package management(Debian), usability(MDK, SuSe, RedHat) and how much better it is to run compiled self programs(Gentoo). + Sacrificing some goats* seems to be popular at the moment as well ;). + Go to the closest pub.
* other animals may also be acceptable but i don't think RMS will see them as free another.
- Dennis Dryden
The message e3d4246267d990bc84fb1de5c2a99042@bouncing.localnet from MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com contains these words:
On 2003-11-26 12:18:57 +0000 Daniel Silverstone dsilvers@digital-scurf.org wrote:
We are referred to, by at least one person, as: The Militant farmers
Sounds like the Norfolk Liberation Army.
IRTA The Norfolk Libation Army....
The message 20031126105519.3E6B11F8016@mail.ukpost.com from "Keith Watson" kpwatson@ukfsn.org contains these words:
Personally I thought "Anglian Yokel Users Group" was quite OK!
[ducks and runs for cover]
:o)
<napalm> <agent orange>
Ahhhhh!
tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-click!
</Uzi> </agent> <napalm>
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:02:56 GMT Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
The message 20031126105519.3E6B11F8016@mail.ukpost.com from "Keith Watson" kpwatson@ukfsn.org contains these words:
Personally I thought "Anglian Yokel Users Group" was quite OK! [ducks and runs for cover] :o)
<napalm> <agent orange> Ahhhhh! tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat-click! </Uzi> </agent> <napalm>
Sod it!! Fragged again!!
On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 06:59:27AM +0000, Syd Hancock wrote:
OK, this is reacting yet again to accusations that we don't welcome things like OpenOffice.org, BSD, Hurd; and the comment I get repeatedly from a certain person I won't name that "Linux Users Group" sounds like a drug rehab project. In the past, I've suggested Anglian Linux Und Gnu, which bombed, and Anglian GNU/Linux User Group. What else? Anglian Local Users Group? Anglian Libre Unix Group? A complete acronym break and East Anglia Free and Open Source Software (EAFOSS)? Something else?
Those who feel strongly, change it to whatever you want if you want. As MJR puts it "who does wins".
Hmmm, that means we could change our name every week! I don't see whats wrong with just calling ourselves Alug and then letting people make up something to fit it....
arsonist livewires underestimate glue arabs love underground geese americans loosening up gyroscopes autohypnosis lyricism upbringing group
Just starts to smack of the peoples front of Judea and the Judean peoples front to me....
The message 20031126130113.GA16630@thebowery.co.uk from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
Those who feel strongly, change it to whatever you want if you want. As MJR puts it "who does wins".
Or for those missing Other Things, 'Who Does, Wines.'
Hmmm, that means we could change our name every week! I don't see whats wrong with just calling ourselves Alug and then letting people make up something to fit it....
arsonist livewires underestimate glue arabs love underground geese americans loosening up gyroscopes autohypnosis lyricism upbringing group
Abraham Lincoln's Utterly Gruesome Angela Lansbury's Utterly Gorgeous
On Wednesday 26 November 2003 15:52, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message 20031126130113.GA16630@thebowery.co.uk
from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
Those who feel strongly, change it to whatever you want if you want. As MJR puts it "who does wins".
Or for those missing Other Things, 'Who Does, Wines.'
Hmmm, that means we could change our name every week! I don't see whats wrong with just calling ourselves Alug and then letting people make up something to fit it....
arsonist livewires underestimate glue arabs love underground geese americans loosening up gyroscopes autohypnosis lyricism upbringing group
Abraham Lincoln's Utterly Gruesome Angela Lansbury's Utterly Gorgeous
Are Linux Users Geeks? Spoken with the fashionable up-talk ending.
-- GT
On Wednesday 26 Nov 2003 5:53 pm, Graham Trott wrote:
On Wednesday 26 November 2003 15:52, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message 20031126130113.GA16630@thebowery.co.uk
from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
Those who feel strongly, change it to whatever you want if you want. As MJR puts it "who does wins".
Or for those missing Other Things, 'Who Does, Wines.'
Hmmm, that means we could change our name every week! I don't see whats wrong with just calling ourselves Alug and then letting people make up something to fit it....
arsonist livewires underestimate glue arabs love underground geese americans loosening up gyroscopes autohypnosis lyricism upbringing group
Abraham Lincoln's Utterly Gruesome Angela Lansbury's Utterly Gorgeous
Are Linux Users Geeks? Spoken with the fashionable up-talk ending.
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition:
ALUG's a Linux User Group
Ian
On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 10:29:44PM +0000, IanBell wrote:
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition:
ALUG's a Linux User Group
I think we have a winner!
Adam
adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 10:29:44PM +0000, IanBell wrote:
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition:
ALUG's a Linux User Group
I think we have a winner!
Get's my vote!
PS. Stop cruelty to goats.
Ben Francis wrote:
Get's my vote!
PS. Stop cruelty to goats.
And inappropriate use of apostrophes.
The message 3FC535BD.2020807@franci5.fsnet.co.uk from Ben Francis ben@franci5.fsnet.co.uk contains these words:
Ben Francis wrote:
Get's my vote!
PS. Stop cruelty to goats.
And inappropriate use of apostrophes.
www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
On Wednesday 26 November 2003 23:22, Ben Francis wrote:
Ben Francis wrote:
Get's my vote!
PS. Stop cruelty to goats.
And inappropriate use of apostrophes.
Here's one gets my "goat":
<pedants-corner> Inappropriate use of "due to" (which means "caused by") where the user meant "owing to" (because of"). </pedants-corner>
-- GT
The message 200311270944.06991.gt@pobox.com from Graham Trott gt@pobox.com contains these words:
On Wednesday 26 November 2003 23:22, Ben Francis wrote:
Ben Francis wrote:
Get's my vote!
PS. Stop cruelty to goats.
And inappropriate use of apostrophes.
Here's one gets my "goat":
<pedants-corner> Inappropriate use of "due to" (which means "caused by") where the user meant "owing to" (because of"). </pedants-corner>
<super-pendant>
Hanging on your words I undepend this into your melting-pot:
You have to remember that 'due' has a lot of shades of meaning: it can mean 'should happen/arrive at this time'; owed (same root as duty); to eat; to digest; to clothe.
I think we could widen the scope of 'due to' a bit more than somewhat.
</pendant>
I'll get my goat....
On Wednesday 26 November 2003 22:45, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 10:29:44PM +0000, IanBell wrote:
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition:
ALUG's a Linux User Group
I think we have a winner!
Adam
Seconded
-- GT
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:29:44 +0000 IanBell ian@redtommo.com wrote:
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition: ALUG's a Linux User Group
Actually, that's not bad.
Keith
On 2003-11-26 23:23:48 +0000 Keith Watson kpwatson@ukfsn.org wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:29:44 +0000 IanBell ian@redtommo.com wrote:
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition: ALUG's a Linux User Group
Actually, that's not bad.
Still has the two parts I don't really like: one program and nothing else; "User Group". Why not (stealing shamelessly): ALUG's a Libre Unix Group?
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, MJ Ray wrote:
ALUG's a Libre Unix Group
For what little it is worth, I really really like /this/ one.
On Thursday 27 Nov 2003 8:55 am, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-26 23:23:48 +0000 Keith Watson kpwatson@ukfsn.org wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:29:44 +0000
IanBell ian@redtommo.com wrote:
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition: ALUG's a Linux User Group
Actually, that's not bad.
Still has the two parts I don't really like: one program and nothing else; "User Group". Why not (stealing shamelessly): ALUG's a Libre Unix Group?
Top notch bit of Franglais there. Should that not be:
ALUG c'est Group Unix Libre ?
Ian
On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:42:15AM +0000, IanBell wrote:
On Thursday 27 Nov 2003 8:55 am, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-26 23:23:48 +0000 Keith Watson kpwatson@ukfsn.org wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:29:44 +0000
IanBell ian@redtommo.com wrote:
Or in the true recursive GNU tradition: ALUG's a Linux User Group
Actually, that's not bad.
Still has the two parts I don't really like: one program and nothing else; "User Group". Why not (stealing shamelessly): ALUG's a Libre Unix Group?
Top notch bit of Franglais there. Should that not be:
ALUG c'est Group Unix Libre ?
Trouble is that changes the Alug etla to Agul :)
Anyhow I like either Alug's a Linux user group or Alug's a libre unix group although I still don't see what is wrong with the current name :)
I was going to write something here about corporate rebranding, but then forgot what i was going to write, you will have to imagine it :)
Adam
On Thursday 27 Nov 2003 9:50 am, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Anyhow I like either Alug's a Linux user group or Alug's a libre unix group although I still don't see what is wrong with the current name :)
I'm with Adam on this one I don't see anything wrong with the current name and the explanation of on the website and in the FAQ. Primarily we discuss linux kernel GNU systems. Not to do RMS any disservice (I have great admiration for the man) but it seems the Linux moniker has been embraced by the most of the world as the default generic name for the OS we are all using albeit just a kernel with all that glorious GNU stuff running on top so Anglian Linux User Group would seem to me to be an adequate description for us.
Just my tuppence worth, asbestos jacket at the ready.
However I quite like A Load of Unlikely Geeks if we really have to change! :-)
Cheers, BJ
On Thursday 27 Nov 2003 12:10 pm, John Woodard wrote:
On Thursday 27 Nov 2003 9:50 am, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Anyhow I like either Alug's a Linux user group or Alug's a libre unix group although I still don't see what is wrong with the current name :)
I'm with Adam on this one I don't see anything wrong with the current name and the explanation of on the website and in the FAQ. Primarily we discuss linux kernel GNU systems. Not to do RMS any disservice (I have great admiration for the man) but it seems the Linux moniker has been embraced by the most of the world as the default generic name for the OS we are all using albeit just a kernel with all that glorious GNU stuff running on top so Anglian Linux User Group would seem to me to be an adequate description for us.
Just my tuppence worth, asbestos jacket at the ready.
However I quite like A Load of Unlikely Geeks if we really have to change! :-)
Are we seriously talking about changing what ALUG means? I thought this was just a bit of fun.
Ian
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:43:10 +0000 IanBell ian@redtommo.com wrote:
Are we seriously talking about changing what ALUG means? I thought this was just a bit of fun.
Seems to be about 50/ 50 at then moment between those who are serious and those (like me :o) ) who have never been serious about anything in their entire lives. Let's face it life's way too short to be serious.
Viva el ALUG Libre Usuario Grupo!!
Energia a la gente!!
Keith
On Saturday 29 Nov 2003 3:37 pm, Keith Watson wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:43:10 +0000
IanBell ian@redtommo.com wrote:
Are we seriously talking about changing what ALUG means? I thought this was just a bit of fun.
Seems to be about 50/ 50 at then moment between those who are serious and those (like me :o) ) who have never been serious about anything in their entire lives. Let's face it life's way too short to be serious.
That would be the Association of Largely Unkempt Gentlemen/women you were talking about I presume.
Cheers, BJ
On Saturday 29 Nov 2003 8:40 pm, John Woodard wrote:
On Saturday 29 Nov 2003 3:37 pm, Keith Watson wrote:
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:43:10 +0000
IanBell ian@redtommo.com wrote:
Are we seriously talking about changing what ALUG means? I thought this was just a bit of fun.
Seems to be about 50/ 50 at then moment between those who are serious and those (like me :o) ) who have never been serious about anything in their entire lives. Let's face it life's way too short to be serious.
That would be the Association of Largely Unkempt Gentlemen/women you were talking about I presume.
Cheers, BJ
Now that I really like. Possibly change the last word to Gentlefolk and I think we have a real winner - and possibly a TV series.
Ian
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On 2003-11-27 12:10:58 +0000 John Woodard mail@johnwoodard.co.uk wrote:
I'm with Adam on this one I don't see anything wrong with the current name and the explanation of on the website and in the FAQ. Primarily we discuss linux kernel GNU systems.
I suggest that this is a bug and part of the reason why numbers are flattening out. We don't do enough user land stuff any more. It's all installs, distributions and kernels. Maybe I'm as much to blame, as I keep bringing broken machines to meetings (or, more exactly, the same machine, differently broken each time so far) and my last present was very low-level, but it would be nice to have more demos and more presents.
Changing the name is suggested as a reminder to include other things. Maybe we should try for "ALUG's a Lively User Group" and see if that starts any fires.
I'm a bit surprised by Adam on this, as I thought he was a GNUWinII fan and very concerned with user land things.
More about kernels from me later.
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 01:09:05AM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
Changing the name is suggested as a reminder to include other things. Maybe we should try for "ALUG's a Lively User Group" and see if that starts any fires.
So why is there no campaign to change the name of all Linux user groups? Other groups don't seem to have this "problem" so I don't think it can be related to the name. I also figure that the reason we tend to dwell on kernels and drivers etc. is that the biggest problems people get is on their first install when trying to get things setup (hell, I am having lots of "fun" with hardware right now!). I don't really see what changing a name and losing recognition actually achieves, I am also a bit surprised about saying things about not talking about applications, one of the interesting recent threads was on ripping music and different apps to do it with.
I'm a bit surprised by Adam on this, as I thought he was a GNUWinII fan and very concerned with user land things.
I am not necessarily a GNUWinII fan, just I advocate handing it out to people who don't want to install Linux (because quite frankly installing Linux and getting it to work with all of your hardware can be a pain, and I don't think its an option to say to interested people "hey, yeah Linux is really cool. oh btw you need to buy a new graphics card and a supported webcam because that one is no good and you then need to apply these patches that you can find on the internet to get that digital camera working" most people will look at you and say "but it works in windows now and if Linux is "better" why won't it work?"
Adam
adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
[SNIP]
I am not necessarily a GNUWinII fan, just I advocate handing it out to people who don't want to install Linux (because quite frankly installing Linux and getting it to work with all of your hardware can be a pain, and I don't think its an option to say to interested people "hey, yeah Linux is really cool. oh btw you need to buy a new graphics card and a supported webcam because that one is no good and you then need to apply these patches that you can find on the internet to get that digital camera working" most people will look at you and say "but it works in windows now and if Linux is "better" why won't it work?"
I get this all the time, which is why I mainly "do" Linux on servers. For the back-end stuff, as a workhorse, it's hard to beat...
Cheers, Laurie.
On Friday 28 November 2003 08:32, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
I am not necessarily a GNUWinII fan, just I advocate handing it out to people who don't want to install Linux (because quite frankly installing Linux and getting it to work with all of your hardware can be a pain, and I don't think its an option to say to interested people "hey, yeah Linux is really cool. oh btw you need to buy a new graphics card and a supported webcam because that one is no good and you then need to apply these patches that you can find on the internet to get that digital camera working" most people will look at you and say "but it works in windows now and if Linux is "better" why won't it work?"
Adam
I think we get onto dangerous ground claiming that Linux is "better than" Windows - or vice versa. One isn't better than the other; they're each better at some things. Windows excels at game play and driving new hardware (try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the machine regularly and pay for pretty well everything you use. Linux is good for "always on" use, makes an undisputedly better server and IMHO is preferable for code development as it's more predictable and easier to organize. But I need a Windows box next to it for a variety of things, including deployment testing and even for some websites that assume IE.
Things are improving fast and in many areas the gap is closing, but Linux on the desktop hasn't got anywhere near the critical mass needed to attract commercial software writers to port their products and make the system a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe.
So let's avoid "better" unless we really enjoy pointless arguments. The Mac has survived (so far) on being "different". Use that as a base and avoid the mistakes they made. Softly softly catchee monkey.
-- GT
On 2003-11-28 10:03:58 +0000 Graham Trott gt@pobox.com wrote:
I think we get onto dangerous ground claiming that Linux is "better than" Windows - or vice versa. One isn't better than the other; they're each better at some things. Windows excels at game play and driving new hardware (try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the machine regularly and pay for pretty well everything you use. Linux is good for "always on" use, makes an undisputedly better server and IMHO is preferable for code development as it's more predictable and easier to organize. But I need a Windows box next to it for a variety of things, including deployment testing and even for some websites that assume IE.
Hrm, well, I'm not sure about this, surely you could do the same method as with a normal CD to get a perfect copy... I.E. dd the DVD to a file, use the (numerous) DVD writing software to burn back the image you just created... then again, just *WHY* are you wanting to copy DVDs? ;)
Things are improving fast and in many areas the gap is closing, but Linux on the desktop hasn't got anywhere near the critical mass needed to attract commercial software writers to port their products and make the system a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe.
Hrm - dunno about that, the only big stumbling block is IE, which them damned web developers appear to like (stupid people, non standards compliant, messes up perfectly valid CSS, etc, etc, not going here this morning), and as for commercial software, which bits are you meaning? There's quite a few of the IDE manufacturers out there now writing linux versions... For pretty things, we've got RenderMan and family... Commercial software is all well and good, but with a OS moving as fast as linux, they can't keep up with the development and the new libraries etc, and they don't tend to like letting out their source.
So let's avoid "better" unless we really enjoy pointless arguments. The Mac has survived (so far) on being "different". Use that as a base and avoid the mistakes they made. Softly softly catchee monkey.
Let's think here... Mac is an entirely different kettle of fish, 1 architecture, in effect, limited, same as windows... Now, think about this carefully, between Linux and NetBSD there's not a hell of a lot of architectures left in the world that we can't run on. We may not have 'immediate' support for hardware, but it's usually not far behind, especially on popular kit, nvidea cards as an example (though, I don't like that example, binary drivers *SPIT*).
To see a quite well crafted (non-free due to crossover office and some other things), debian based, desktop solution, go look at Xandros, it works rather well (http://www.xandros.com/).
Right, end of pointless rant.
Brett.
On Friday 28 November 2003 10:24, Brett Parker wrote:
Hrm, well, I'm not sure about this, surely you could do the same method as with a normal CD to get a perfect copy... I.E. dd the DVD to a file, use the (numerous) DVD writing software to burn back the image you just created... then again, just *WHY* are you wanting to copy DVDs? ;)
Well, to start with I'd like to copy my legal copy of SuSE9 in case I damage the original. But "why" isn't important; "how" is. I admit I've not come across dd before; I just did a "man" on it and my brain froze over. Options, options but no explanation of how to use it. Any pointers?
-- GT
On 2003-11-28 11:45:10 +0000 Graham Trott gt@pobox.com wrote:
On Friday 28 November 2003 10:24, Brett Parker wrote:
Hrm, well, I'm not sure about this, surely you could do the same method as with a normal CD to get a perfect copy... I.E. dd the DVD to a file, use the (numerous) DVD writing software to burn back the image you just created... then again, just *WHY* are you wanting to copy DVDs? ;)
Well, to start with I'd like to copy my legal copy of SuSE9 in case I damage the original. But "why" isn't important; "how" is. I admit I've not come across dd before; I just did a "man" on it and my brain froze over. Options, options but no explanation of how to use it. Any pointers?
usually dd if=/path/to/device of=filename will do the job, sometimes you need to play with blocksizes and that kinda fun stuff, but generally the defaults work out rather well :)
Then just use what ever to burn the resulting image file.
Cheers,
Brett.
On Friday 28 November 2003 11:45, Brett Parker wrote:
usually dd if=/path/to/device of=filename will do the job, sometimes you need to play with blocksizes and that kinda fun stuff, but generally the defaults work out rather well :)
Then just use what ever to burn the resulting image file.
Cheers,
Brett.
'Fraid not. It just complains
dd: reading '/media/dvd' : Is a directory
Is there some way of making a device look like a file?
-- GT
On 2003-11-28 12:10:50 +0000 Graham Trott gt@pobox.com wrote:
On Friday 28 November 2003 11:45, Brett Parker wrote:
usually dd if=/path/to/device of=filename will do the job, sometimes you need to play with blocksizes and that kinda fun stuff, but generally the defaults work out rather well :)
Then just use what ever to burn the resulting image file.
Cheers,
Brett.
'Fraid not. It just complains
dd: reading '/media/dvd' : Is a directory
Is there some way of making a device look like a file?
/media/dvd sounds suspiciously like a mount point to me... I think you'll be wanting something closer to /dev/dvd or /dev/scd0 or similar... look in /etc/fstab as to what gets mounted to /media/dvd.
Cheers,
Brett.
On Friday 28 November 2003 12:12, Brett Parker wrote:
/media/dvd sounds suspiciously like a mount point to me... I think you'll be wanting something closer to /dev/dvd or /dev/scd0 or similar... look in /etc/fstab as to what gets mounted to /media/dvd.
Cheers,
Brett.
My thanks to Brett and Adam on this one. I don't care what the group calls itself if I can get such instant, high-quality advice at a moment's notice.
-- GT
On Friday 28 November 2003 12:10, Graham Trott wrote:
'Fraid not. It just complains
dd: reading '/media/dvd' : Is a directory
Is there some way of making a device look like a file?
-- GT
Just answered my own question. Looks like using /dev/sr0 may do the job. Something's happening, at least.
-- G
Brett Parker brettp@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
usually dd if=/path/to/device of=filename will do the job
That put me off dd when I first saw it as I read 'if' as in 'if then else' and I couldn't understand it. The penny dropped later when I realised it was typical Linux (Unix) terseness for input file.
It's a hard life for a bear of little brain.
Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain
The message 20031128123630.875D23D@dataman1.ibmpeers from bsamuels@beenthere-donethat.org.uk (Barry Samuels) contains these words:
Brett Parker brettp@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
usually dd if=/path/to/device of=filename will do the job
That put me off dd when I first saw it as I read 'if' as in 'if then else' and I couldn't understand it. The penny dropped later when I realised it was typical Linux (Unix) terseness for input file.
It's a hard life for a bear of little brain.
Pooh! It's a bed of Rooses.
The message 735e82c241f5a80bbf628d2f184f584f@lister from Brett Parker brettp@users.sourceforge.net contains these words:
/snippetry/
Hrm - dunno about that, the only big stumbling block is IE, which them damned web developers appear to like (stupid people, non standards compliant, messes up perfectly valid CSS, etc, etc, not going here this morning),
Oh, I am. Wait for it!
and as for commercial software, which bits are you meaning? There's quite a few of the IDE manufacturers out there now writing linux versions... For pretty things, we've got RenderMan and family... Commercial software is all well and good, but with a OS moving as fast as linux, they can't keep up with the development and the new libraries etc, and they don't tend to like letting out their source.
Well, Linux writers and tinkerers should make pretty damn sure that any alterations they make will keep it backwards-compatible.
It was XP looming on the horizon that prodded me into actually implementing my linux preferences.
So let's avoid "better" unless we really enjoy pointless arguments. The Mac has survived (so far) on being "different". Use that as a base and avoid the mistakes they made. Softly softly catchee monkey.
Let's think here... Mac is an entirely different kettle of fish, 1 architecture, in effect, limited, same as windows... Now, think about this carefully, between Linux and NetBSD there's not a hell of a lot of architectures left in the world that we can't run on. We may not have 'immediate' support for hardware, but it's usually not far behind, especially on popular kit, nvidea cards as an example (though, I don't like that example, binary drivers *SPIT*).
To see a quite well crafted (non-free due to crossover office and some other things), debian based, desktop solution, go look at Xandros, it works rather well (http://www.xandros.com/).
Right, end of pointless rant.
You do your rant an injustice.
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 10:03:58AM +0000, Graham Trott wrote:
I think we get onto dangerous ground claiming that Linux is "better than" Windows - or vice versa. One isn't better than the other; they're each
I wasn't actually saying that Linux is better than windows, my point was related to why GnuWinII is good. Perhaps my message came across garbled, anyhow if you are going to try and convert people to Linux but tell them that "ummm, no it isn't better, ummm, its equivalent" they will give you a really funny look. :)
(try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the machine
Funny you should say that, the easiest bit of hardware I have got working recently was my DVD burner, i just removed the cd burner and put the dvd burner in its place and it just works.
Things are improving fast and in many areas the gap is closing, but Linux on the desktop hasn't got anywhere near the critical mass needed to attract commercial software writers to port their products and make the system a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe.
Depends on what the average Joe wants really, most only want "word" (openoffice.org) "internet" (mozilla) "messenger" (Gaim) and to be honest Linux on the desktop is nice and friendly already, especially fedora, I would say that fedora is much easier on the average Joe with a new computer than windows is. (I am planning a real world experiment on this very soon :)) This is why I was evangelising GnuWinII ( http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/index.html ) because it includes openoffice and mozilla and lots of other bits out of the box, check it out! if you have people who are devoted to windows and are not ready for Linux get them to checkout GnuWinII!
The current weak points are installation (although installing windows isn't friendly, it is an evil process the only reason most people don't know this is they buy windows preinstalled) and hardware support (which is a pain in the bum to be honest, my main stressful bits of hardware are my Nvidia graphics card (woo, look a manufacturer supported bit of hardware and look how it doesn't work....) my USB webcam (has semi official support via a non-free kernel module) and my new a4 graphics tablet that i bought from aldi for 30 quid yesterday (this needs a recompile of X-windows with a patch it seems but the support it new so should be merged soonish).
Adam
On Friday 28 November 2003 10:42, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
(try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the machine
Funny you should say that, the easiest bit of hardware I have got working recently was my DVD burner, i just removed the cd burner and put the dvd burner in its place and it just works.
What software was that? K3b refuses to copy a DVD data disc. I agree burning DVDs is easy, but I want a bootable one. I understand mkisofs has support, but needs the right files in the right places and I haven't got my head round all that yet. If you're ahead of me, do tell.
Things are improving fast and in many areas the gap is closing, but Linux on the desktop hasn't got anywhere near the critical mass needed to attract commercial software writers to port their products and make the system a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe.
The current weak points are installation (although installing windows isn't friendly, it is an evil process the only reason most people don't know this is they buy windows preinstalled) and hardware support (which is a pain in the bum to be honest, my main stressful bits of hardware are my Nvidia graphics card (woo, look a manufacturer supported bit of hardware and look how it doesn't work....) my USB webcam (has semi official support via a non-free kernel module) and my new a4 graphics tablet that i bought from aldi for 30 quid yesterday (this needs a recompile of X-windows with a patch it seems but the support it new so should be merged soonish).
All things the average Windows user takes for granted. Which in Joe's eyes makes Windows "better than" Linux. I'm not agreeing with him because I prefer the way Linux does other things, and because I'm a geek and he's a real person.
-- GT
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:38:18AM +0000, Graham Trott wrote:
On Friday 28 November 2003 10:42, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
(try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the machine
Funny you should say that, the easiest bit of hardware I have got working recently was my DVD burner, i just removed the cd burner and put the dvd burner in its place and it just works.
What software was that? K3b refuses to copy a DVD data disc. I agree burning DVDs is easy, but I want a bootable one. I understand mkisofs has support, but needs the right files in the right places and I haven't got my head round all that yet. If you're ahead of me, do tell.
As Brett said all you should need to do is a
dd if=/dev/dvd of=/tmp/dvd.iso
(where /dev/dvd is the device name of your dvd-burner or drive, and of is where you want to save the image) then burn dvd.iso as normal. I don't know if there is a GUI front end that does this kind of thing because I tend to spurn them :)
Adam
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:38:18 +0000 Graham Trott gt@pobox.com wrote:
On Friday 28 November 2003 10:42, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
(try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the machine
Funny you should say that, the easiest bit of hardware I have got working recently was my DVD burner, i just removed the cd burner and put the dvd burner in its place and it just works.
What software was that? K3b refuses to copy a DVD data disc. I agree burning
That's funny we booted Knoppix on a laptop at work that had a DVD burner and copied a data DVD off a mag. with no problem.
Keith
Which is why M$ will rule the world for some time to come. Tried Linux, various distros on different computers and on each one parts of the hardware has not been recognised etc. However it is cheap and lots of help is available so I remain a newbie/convert/user Regards Stan
On Friday 28 November 2003 08:32, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
I am not necessarily a GNUWinII fan, just I advocate handing it out to people who don't want to install Linux (because quite frankly installing Linux and getting it to work with all of your hardware can be a pain,
and I
don't think its an option to say to interested people "hey, yeah Linux
is
really cool. oh btw you need to buy a new graphics card and a supported webcam because that one is no good and you then need to apply these
patches
that you can find on the internet to get that digital camera working"
most
people will look at you and say "but it works in windows now and if
Linux
is "better" why won't it work?"
Adam
I think we get onto dangerous ground claiming that Linux is "better than" Windows - or vice versa. One isn't better than the other; they're each better at some things. Windows excels at game play and driving new
hardware
(try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the
machine
regularly and pay for pretty well everything you use. Linux is good for "always on" use, makes an undisputedly better server and IMHO is
preferable
for code development as it's more predictable and easier to organize. But
I
need a Windows box next to it for a variety of things, including
deployment
testing and even for some websites that assume IE.
Things are improving fast and in many areas the gap is closing, but Linux
on
the desktop hasn't got anywhere near the critical mass needed to attract commercial software writers to port their products and make the system a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe.
So let's avoid "better" unless we really enjoy pointless arguments. The
Mac
has survived (so far) on being "different". Use that as a base and avoid
the
mistakes they made. Softly softly catchee monkey.
-- GT
main@lists.alug.org.uk http://www.alug.org.uk/ http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above!
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:18:19AM -0000, Stan Fraser wrote:
Which is why M$ will rule the world for some time to come. Tried Linux, various distros on different computers and on each one parts of the hardware has not been recognised etc. However it is cheap and lots of help is available so I remain a newbie/convert/user Regards Stan
This is improving with time though, and there will be a "tipping point" where all hardware will be supported in Linux. The tipping point being where perhaps 5-10% of computers are running Linux on the desktop and having hardware that is freely supported in Linux will be good for a hardware manufacturers business.
There is a very good book on this principle called "the tipping point, how little things can make a big difference" author is Malcolm Gladwell bookbrain search for it here http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2A5429A6 it is a really fantastic book, and I can recommend it to everyone on this list :) (oh and it isn't on computing by the way just in case you were wondering)
Also to be honest there is more Linux supported hardware out there than there is supported by Microsoft, just most home users don't have S/390s, PA-Risc, Sparc, Mips, ARM etc. etc. kit at home :) of course its the low end of the hardware/computing market that Linux is still having troubles with although I can't think of any type of peripheral that isn't supported in Linux, you may have to shop around to find exactly the right item that will work.
I have also found some hardware works better and is easier to install with Linux than in Windows so this does work both ways :)
Adam
On Friday 28 November 2003 11:58, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Also to be honest there is more Linux supported hardware out there than there is supported by Microsoft, just most home users don't have S/390s, PA-Risc, Sparc, Mips, ARM etc. etc. kit at home :) of course its the low end of the hardware/computing market that Linux is still having troubles with although I can't think of any type of peripheral that isn't supported in Linux, you may have to shop around to find exactly the right item that will work.
I was talking about this with someone else the other day.
The main problem I think is that it's not only the drivers that are designed around Windows, but the hardware too. Winmodems and there recent offspring Winprinters are such examples of devices which I feel go against the whole Unix philosophy
As soon as you move the device's intelligence from the device into the driver you have a problem in the Unix world. Either your driver is going to have to run in userland or some bloated cruft, that's specific to only one device out of 1000's is going to have to be inserted in the kernel (or loaded as a module)
Now after witnessing some of the nasty buggy and bloated drivers I have to deal with in Windows, I don't want the same put into my kernel (even as a module).
Hardware devices should be as simple as something to stream data to or from. Device drivers should not be drivers but more of a hardware capability description, like in the old days.
We see Linux incompatibility more on the cheaper devices because it's on them that it makes more sense to move as much as possible into the driver.
Move up to the higher end, and you'll see that the hardware becomes more complex and the drivers more simple. For example I have yet to find a SCSI device that will not work on Linux.
Recent versions of Windows can be very stable, it's the nasty third party drivers that cause most of the stability problems. Given the choice between Windows instability and lack of support for some cheap and crufty £30 printer, I'll take the latter thank you.
Also the more of a device that lives in the driver, the less chance of the manufacturer releasing the driver code, and the less trivial it becomes to create a driver from the device specs. If manufacturers put the "secrets of their proprietary inkjet dither technology" back inside firmware where it belongs then writing drivers would be a lot easier.
Phew...glad I got that off my chest.
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 07:42:42PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
Now after witnessing some of the nasty buggy and bloated drivers I have to deal with in Windows, I don't want the same put into my kernel (even as a module).
Recent versions of Windows can be very stable, it's the nasty third party drivers that cause most of the stability problems. Given the choice between Windows instability and lack of support for some cheap and crufty £30 printer, I'll take the latter thank you.
Both of these points are very very true, you just reminded me of the problems I have had with hardware in Windows. My main motivation for giving my parents a Linux computer is partially to do with when I tried to upgrade the graphics card in their machine (I had upgraded my gfx card and was giving them my cast off). Basically I removed the ATI drivers rebooted the machine and it was ok, shutdown Windows put in the Nvidia gfx card and the machine blue screened at boot, no matter what I did, no safe mode nothing. I also then tried putting the old gfx card back into the machine, the result was exactly the same problem.
In the end I pulled the data off the harddisk and as yet have to build them their new computer (still not decided on distro, fedora is a possible/likely candidate as it has a very nice UI out of the box and they only have dialup so Debian unstable may be a bit much :)). Although I /may/ give Mandrake 9.2 another go.
At least with a Linux box it is hard to get it into a similar state unless you have physically broken hardware or have actually broken a config file badly but at least to fix these kind of problems usually means a boot with a rescue disk and fixing your boot loader or changing your fstab back to what it said 5 minutes ago before breaking your machine, not that I would ever do anything like that ever... oh no. not me :o)
I am also reminded of how much of my bargain hardware doesn't actually work in Windows very well, mainly because you get locked in to poor vendor shipped applications as many of the drivers do not supply an interface for third party software, sometimes I have despaired when I have a new bit of hardware that I am having trouble getting working under Linux so I boot to windows (I only have it for games! honest guv) to try the hardware there and find out how bad the official driver support and applications are!
Adam
So we are still looking for a bit of technical Harry Potterness no matter what system or software is used. It's not the knowing how to hit it, it's the WHERE to hit it as Gandalf told me! Regards Stan
----- Original Message ----- From: adam@thebowery.co.uk
In the end I pulled the data off the harddisk and as yet have to build
them
their new computer (still not decided on distro, fedora is a
possible/likely
candidate as it has a very nice UI out of the box and they only have
dialup
so Debian unstable may be a bit much :)). Although I /may/ give Mandrake
9.2
another go.
Adam
Hi, would anyone know why KPPP (Suse 8.2) would seem to keep deleting the file /etc/resolv.conf? I think KPPP changes this file while a dial-up session is in use. If I create an empty file KPPP will connect without complaint but at the next log-on it's missing, KPPP complains but connects anyway.
I am creating the file as root (dialing out as a normal user) but does it need any special permission attributes? All users for KPPP are defined in the file /etc/kppp.allow and kppp itself is restricted to the group 'dialout' and chmod 4750 (as per the instructions in the kppp kde manual).
Sorry to ask the group. I have Googled/man-paged/pulled hair out, etc before deciding to take this route - honest.
Many thanks - Martin
On 2003-11-28 23:21:50 +0000 Martin Collins sickofthesea@btinternet.com wrote:
Hi, would anyone know why KPPP (Suse 8.2) would seem to keep deleting the file /etc/resolv.conf?
It's probably trying to replace the nameserver details with the ones provided by the connection.
kppp itself is restricted to the group 'dialout' and chmod 4750 (as per the instructions in the kppp kde manual).
The lead 4 indicates setuid. I'm guessing that kppp is owned by root. This means that kppp is running as root, so can quite happily mess with whatever files it wants to. This seems an amazingly insecure setup, but let's not mess with it just now. I understand that fixing it is covered in the kppp docs.
"kppp ate my resolv.conf" seems a popular cry on KDE mailing lists. Try checking the DNS tab on "Edit Account" panel. Maybe toggling "Disable existing DNS" will help. If it doesn't, for brute force "chmod a-w /etc/resolv.conf" to stop kppp writing to it, but it might moan.
"kppp ate my resolv.conf" seems a popular cry on KDE mailing lists. Try checking the DNS tab on "Edit Account" panel. Maybe toggling "Disable existing DNS" will help. If it doesn't, for brute force "chmod a-w /etc/resolv.conf" to stop kppp writing to it, but it might moan.
Thanks. It's happening on my Mum's SuSE 8.2 Personal box as my 8.2 Pro box has no problems. I will investigate further next time I go round.
You've made me realise that it is an insecure set-up. So I was wondering how other dial-up Linux users connect - what is the preferred method? SuSE does have a system that's supposed to dial & connect automagically upon receiving an http request - but it was terribly unreliable so I disabled it and went with kppp instead.
Rgds,
Martin
On 2003-11-29 21:12:57 +0000 Martin Collins sickofthesea@btinternet.com wrote:
You've made me realise that it is an insecure set-up. So I was wondering how other dial-up Linux users connect - what is the preferred method?
I have pppd starting on boot now (DSL) and used to have it starting on demand, so it's really root doing it. I think the normal way is to add all authorised users to "dialout" group and set pppd as setuid root with config options and file permissions for the dialout group (chown root.dialout pppd ; chmod u+srx,g+rx,o-rwx pppd ; #perhaps?).
It seems a bit dangerous to have a frontend like kppp setuid root, as I think then it can call pppd with all options, even restricted-to-root ones. Maybe I'm wrong about that? At best, it means that kppp bugs might allow someone to get root.
On Sunday 30 November 2003 3:14 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-29 21:12:57 +0000 Martin Collins
sickofthesea@btinternet.com wrote:
You've made me realise that it is an insecure set-up. So I was wondering how other dial-up Linux users connect - what is the preferred method?
What I used to do was use a script with the pppd command in, as well as various firewall, wwwoffle etc commands in and used sudo to call that script.
I think thats quite a safe way of doing it...?
BenE
----------------------------
I'm getting pissed for christmas, Just like the rest of the year, There's no future in this lonely world, So I might as well have a beer
Peter & The Test Tube Babes / GBH
On 2003-12-01 19:15:02 +0000 BenEBoy mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
What I used to do was use a script with the pppd command in, as well as various firewall, wwwoffle etc commands in and used sudo to call that script.
I think thats quite a safe way of doing it...?
I think it's fairly safe. Maybe there's some benefit in having firewall, wwwoffle etc running from ppp-up instead, but I'm not sure.
The message 200311281003.58824.gt@pobox.com from Graham Trott gt@pobox.com contains these words:
I think we get onto dangerous ground claiming that Linux is "better than" Windows - or vice versa. One isn't better than the other; they're each better at some things. Windows excels at game play and driving new hardware (try finding a DVD copier for Linux) but requires you to restart the machine regularly and pay for pretty well everything you use. Linux is good for "always on" use, makes an undisputedly better server and IMHO is preferable for code development as it's more predictable and easier to organize. But I need a Windows box next to it for a variety of things, including deployment testing and even for some websites that assume IE.
Windows is 'better' at some things because so much is written specifically for it. Trying to run windows apps in say, Wine, will (probably) slow them down a bit - my Debian box, though a PIII 450 is *MUCH* slower to load than my Win98 box, which is only a PII 233MMX, and there's only a fraction of the stuff on the Debian box that will be there when I know what's available and what of it I want.
Yes, I know that some of it won't actually load, but then, neither does it in Windows, and a 2 Gig drive is Ÿ full (though 'tis true I didn't put most of it there)
Things are improving fast and in many areas the gap is closing, but Linux on the desktop hasn't got anywhere near the critical mass needed to attract commercial software writers to port their products and make the system a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe.
It needs a lot of (seemingly) innocent requests to manufacturers: "May I have Linux drivers, please?" (I do!)
So let's avoid "better" unless we really enjoy pointless arguments. The Mac has survived (so far) on being "different". Use that as a base and avoid the mistakes they made. Softly softly catchee monkey.
Only just, and how are they managing? All the Mac users I know are ruefully admitting a move towards Muco$not compatibilly tea.
And the Acorn? Content with their schools market.........
I don't think we can be allowed the luxury of 'softlee-softlee catchee monkey'. What is needed - and quickly - is something your ordinary punter can feed into the CD-ROMdrive and unleash, and which will pretty-well self-install with a few pretty basic prods as to preferences as it goes, and then start up in an adult and non-patronising (MY computer, MY documents - YEUK!) way, and be intuitive and user-friendly.
It's all very well for those of us who are reasonably competent between the ears, but remember, half the population is below average intelligence, and we have a couple of generations of young people who haven't been taught basic English (amongst other things) at school.
Oops! Am I beginning a rant?
I'll get my goat.
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:03:58 +0000 Graham Trott gt@pobox.com wrote:
I think we get onto dangerous ground claiming that Linux is "better than" Windows - or vice versa. One isn't better than the other; they're each
No we don't, in my opinion it's far superior and that's the reason I prefer to use it whenever I can. As far as I'm concerned Windows sucks!
Keith
On Saturday 29 November 2003 15:00, Keith Watson wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:03:58 +0000
Graham Trott gt@pobox.com wrote:
I think we get onto dangerous ground claiming that Linux is "better than" Windows - or vice versa. One isn't better than the other; they're each
No we don't, in my opinion it's far superior and that's the reason I prefer to use it whenever I can. As far as I'm concerned Windows sucks!
Keith
That's the point I'm making - it's your opinion (and you're entitled to it). My son-in-law would want to play Unreal Tournament or download music from KaZaA and for him there's no question Windows is better. Any attempt to persuade otherwise would be met with derision.
-- GT
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 04:27:56PM +0000, Graham Trott wrote:
That's the point I'm making - it's your opinion (and you're entitled to it). My son-in-law would want to play Unreal Tournament or download music from KaZaA and for him there's no question Windows is better. Any attempt to persuade otherwise would be met with derision.
Heh, Unreal Tournament plays fine on any hardware now as it is an old game, Unreal Tournament 2003 runs faster on my box in Linux than it does on Windows and I found KaZaa didn't have the music I wanted and Gnutella was much better :)
Therefore, Linux *must* be better than Windows ;)
Adam
On Saturday 29 November 2003 16:57, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Heh, Unreal Tournament plays fine on any hardware now as it is an old game, Unreal Tournament 2003 runs faster on my box in Linux than it does on Windows and I found KaZaa didn't have the music I wanted and Gnutella was much better
:)
Therefore, Linux *must* be better than Windows ;)
Adam
OK, I submit. Linux is better than Windows. And apples are better than oranges.
-- GT
The message 200311291728.09736.gt@pobox.com from Graham Trott gt@pobox.com contains these words:
Therefore, Linux *must* be better than Windows ;)
Adam
OK, I submit. Linux is better than Windows. And apples are better than oranges.
Apples were the choice of the Little Lady: serpently they *MUST* be better.
On Saturday 29 Nov 2003 4:57 pm, adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Therefore, Linux *must* be better than Windows ;)
Not true untill you compare a piddling flag with bits falling off it to a wonderful picture of a penguin who looks like he just got laid, which proves it once and for all. :)
The Linux albeit unnofficial logo is better than the Windows one so Linux wins nuff said!
Cheers, BJ
On 2003-11-28 08:32:49 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
So why is there no campaign to change the name of all Linux user groups?
Because I don't care about them as much. Things are still worth doing even if I can't do everything at once.
Other groups don't seem to have this "problem" so I don't think it can be related to the name.
Of other "nearby" groups, there are two that I'd say are prospering and both tend to talk about applications more than system. There are two that I think are struggling and one of those is really just doing installs at every meeting. The other struggler doesn't seem to have met for some time. Most are in a similar "holding pattern" to ALUG.
I also figure that the reason we tend to dwell on kernels and drivers etc. is that the biggest problems people get is on their first install when trying to get things setup (hell, I am having lots of "fun" with hardware right now!).
Is there something we can do to avoid continually re-solving this same problem?
I don't really see what changing a name and losing recognition [...]
I feel that we are not recognised by most and those who do recognise it are as likely to be put off as encouraged.
One thread does not make a trend, although I was quite happy to see the (two?) music threads after about a month of mostly low-level things. The list traffic doesn't really reflect what happens at meetings. It would have been nice to see some of the discussions from the list carry over to the meeting, but most people from the list aren't at the meeting. What do people want from the meetings?
Something unsettled me about the last meeting. I wish I could identify exactly what it was. The basic organisation seems pretty sound now, thanks mostly to those who have been scheduling meetings over the last year, but what attracts people to go to meetings? It's obvious if you have some piece of broken kit to take along, but what else? At the last meeting, I heard the early part of Paul's explanations, which seemed interesting, but something distracted me, which I guess will happen when it's a free for all.
Yes, I'm probably being provocative with the name change suggestion and projecting some of my concerns onto it. When faced with something ill-defined, it's hard to be specific.
I want the lurkers to speak up. We have 250 addresses getting copies of this. Even if we assume that all the meeting venues get different people (definitely untrue IMO), that means we only see about three dozen of them to talk with. How do we get the other seven-eighths involved? Do we spend too long grubbing around at the techie level? Is Laurie right that anyone who manages to install it necessarily tends to become techie? Is Syd right that more frequent meetings in each place will build numbers? Do we need to offer some compelling reasons to attend? Should we go further and effectively split the group geographically? Can we use Graham's comment about "being different" somehow more? Where did the mag I took to the last Norwich meeting go? Will the sky stay blue?
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:16:23AM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-28 08:32:49 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
Of other "nearby" groups, there are two that I'd say are prospering and both tend to talk about applications more than system. There are two that I think are struggling and one of those is really just doing installs at every meeting. The other struggler doesn't seem to have met for some time. Most are in a similar "holding pattern" to ALUG.
Talks would be good, I am guilty of not providing a talk at the last meeting but I have been fairly ill the past couple of weeks but seem to be in recovery now. Also having car problems has not helped (but I should be picking up the fixed car this afternoon w00t)
I also figure that the reason we tend to dwell on kernels and drivers etc. is that the biggest problems people get is on their first install when trying to get things setup (hell, I am having lots of "fun" with hardware right now!).
Is there something we can do to avoid continually re-solving this same problem?
Yes, buy explicitly supported hardware ;) also hardware autodetection and configuration needs to be better, but as per your email on Linux kernel 2.6 these problems should hopefully be reduced even more soon.
I don't really see what changing a name and losing recognition [...]
I feel that we are not recognised by most and those who do recognise it are as likely to be put off as encouraged.
One thread does not make a trend, although I was quite happy to see the (two?) music threads after about a month of mostly low-level things. The list traffic doesn't really reflect what happens at meetings. It would have been nice to see some of the discussions from the list carry over to the meeting, but most people from the list aren't at the meeting. What do people want from the meetings?
A quick look through my archives seem to suggest 30% of postings on applications although slanted towards setting them up, 30% towards hardware and 30% towards free software related issues, hosting co. recommendations, diversions from technical talk etc. (and i know it adds up to only 90% :))
I want the lurkers to speak up. We have 250 addresses getting copies of this. Even if we assume that all the meeting venues get different people (definitely untrue IMO), that means we only see about three dozen of them to talk with. How do we get the other seven-eighths involved?
I definetly agree on this, I sometimes wonder how many of these mail boxes are going to /dev/null and why we see many people join the list but never post? are they there? do they really exist?
Do we spend too long grubbing around at the techie level?
Possibly.
Is Laurie right that anyone who manages to install it necessarily tends to become techie?
I think that people who manage to get GNU/Linux installed are possibly/probably more technically competent/aware than your average "normal users" (for want of a better term, sorry I don't like the way it sounds either) but then many of these "normal users" don't really care about what OS they are running or the name or manufacturer of their software, they just want an easy life and they would be just as happy if you gave them a nicely setup linux box with openoffice, mozilla all hardware configured etc. etc. as they would with a windows box or something running Mac OS. More on this below.
Is Syd right that more frequent meetings in each place will build numbers?
Don't know, lets find out :) (I guess that we are finding out tbh, Norwich and Ely evening meetings seem to be a bigger sucess than weekend meetings with hardware)
Do we need to offer some compelling reasons to attend?
Free beer?
Should we go further and effectively split the group geographically?
Lets try and build meetings in particular locations more often, and try and not let them clash. I still don't think splitting the mailing list will necessarily help, but having seperate area groups pages on the website maybe with links to the list?
Can we use Graham's comment about "being different" somehow more?
Hmmmm, maybe. Linux is different like Mac OS is different etc. We need to appeal to more artists :)
Where did the mag I took to the last Norwich meeting go?
Don't know. How are people getting on with the free Linux User and Developer magazines we have been sent? I still have a copy of this months issue but I am loath to give it away as it has a picture of Kirsty and me on the AFFS stand at Linux Expo.
Will the sky stay blue?
I certainly hope so! it was overcast here first thing but the sky has cleared and it looks like we may have a nice day :)
Adam
The message 20031128114436.GK16630@thebowery.co.uk from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
I want the lurkers to speak up. We have 250 addresses getting copies of this. Even if we assume that all the meeting venues get different people (definitely untrue IMO), that means we only see about three dozen of them to talk with. How do we get the other seven-eighths involved?
I definetly agree on this, I sometimes wonder how many of these mail boxes are going to /dev/null and why we see many people join the list but never post? are they there? do they really exist?
Send out an annual resubscribe to non-posters, with two monthly reminders before removal?
One or two may be lost, but are they benefitting anyway?
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 01:25:18PM +0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
Send out an annual resubscribe to non-posters, with two monthly reminders before removal?
One or two may be lost, but are they benefitting anyway?
Not really worth the effort, if their mail bounces then they will automatically be removed from the list after a set period of time or bounces. Don't want to accidentaly unsubscribe people if we can help it.
Adam
On Friday 28 November 2003 2:25 pm, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message 20031128114436.GK16630@thebowery.co.uk
from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
I want the lurkers to speak up. We have 250 addresses getting copies of this. Even if we assume that all the meeting venues get different people (definitely untrue IMO), that means we only see about three dozen of them to talk with. How do we get the other seven-eighths involved?
I definetly agree on this, I sometimes wonder how many of these mail boxes are going to /dev/null and why we see many people join the list but never post? are they there? do they really exist?
Send out an annual resubscribe to non-posters, with two monthly reminders before removal?
One or two may be lost, but are they benefitting anyway?
I've heard, although admittedly from a local-boy-turned-famousish-internet-troll that a ten to one poster to lurker ratio is about average. Assuming thats about right then being able to meet 30ish in the flesh isn't so bad is it?
As to your question...let people who want to lurk, lurk. They aren't hurting anyone ;)
*waves at the lurkers but in a 'please don't feel it necessary to wave back manner'*
BenE
The message 200311282202.06622.mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk from BenEBoy mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk contains these words:
One or two may be lost, but are they benefitting anyway?
I've heard, although admittedly from a local-boy-turned-famousish-internet-troll that a ten to one poster to lurker ratio is about average. Assuming thats about right then being able to meet 30ish in the flesh isn't so bad is it?
As to your question...let people who want to lurk, lurk. They aren't hurting anyone ;)
*waves at the lurkers but in a 'please don't feel it necessary to wave back manner'*
What I meant was more in the line of 'are they reading the list anyway?'
On Friday 28 November 2003 11:11 pm, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message 200311282202.06622.mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk
from BenEBoy mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk contains these words:
One or two may be lost, but are they benefitting anyway?
I've heard, although admittedly from a local-boy-turned-famousish-internet-troll that a ten to one poster to lurker ratio is about average. Assuming thats about right then being able to meet 30ish in the flesh isn't so bad is it?
As to your question...let people who want to lurk, lurk. They aren't hurting anyone ;)
*waves at the lurkers but in a 'please don't feel it necessary to wave back manner'*
What I meant was more in the line of 'are they reading the list anyway?'
Does it matter?
It's their inbox(es). I'm subbed to UKCrypto. I don't read it everyday, but every so often I sort by subject and read the ones that interest me.
And I've had a few drinks so don't take any notice of me (and everytime I type 'su' in the shell it returns with 'piss off, you're drunk)
The message 200311282328.28574.mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk from BenEBoy mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk contains these words:
What I meant was more in the line of 'are they reading the list anyway?'
Does it matter?
Not really. But I hate seeing good words go to waste. I wonder how many people sort through their bit-bucket for good words or phrases to put into stock before melting the rest down to molish new words?
It's their inbox(es). I'm subbed to UKCrypto. I don't read it everyday, but every so often I sort by subject and read the ones that interest me.
And I've had a few drinks so don't take any notice of me (and everytime I type 'su' in the shell it returns with 'piss off, you're drunk)
Oh, you've got a box like that? Mine just returns with: "Yes dear. Time for your Bournvita."
On Friday 28 Nov 2003 10:28 pm, BenEBoy wrote:
On Friday 28 November 2003 11:11 pm, Anthony Anson wrote:
And I've had a few drinks so don't take any notice of me (and everytime I type 'su' in the shell it returns with 'piss off, you're drunk)
Now that is a useful facility, I need similar to stop me shopping online after going to the pub!
Cheers, BJ
On Friday 28 November 2003 22:28, BenEBoy wrote:
And I've had a few drinks so don't take any notice of me (and everytime I type 'su' in the shell it returns with 'piss off, you're drunk)
Now THAT is a worthwhile project.
What we need is an interface built for one of those little keyring breathaliser's, then a hook into the authentication mechanism..
digimatic login: root Password:
Now please blow into /dev/ttyUSB0..
Testing............
Sorry you are way to mullered to have root access...please try a guest account
On 2003-11-28 21:02:06 +0000 BenEBoy mail@psychoferret.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
ten to one poster to lurker ratio is about average. Assuming thats about right then being able to meet 30ish in the flesh isn't so bad is it?
10 posters to each lurker would be great! ;-) I think 10 lurkers to 1 poster is time to worry. ALUG had ~50 senders last month, which suggests 4 to 1. "Successful" lists have 2 to 1 or better. Some posters are very frequent (yes, I know) so it may not always feel like those numbers. More on lurkers on techwr-l at http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=m16xAK4-000BOwb%40mail.GTS.NET
Personally, I wasn't really talking about lurking on the list. I'm quite happy for people to watch if they don't want to add anything just now, but why not help to shape the meetings more? I suspect some can help to improve meetings, as they're not liking them enough to come yet. We don't see all posters at meetings, so there may be some already posting who can help. Even if it's just noting a gap in their area, suggesting better times, or giving topic ideas, it would be nice to see. We've had a few showing clear desire for a meeting further south. Now it just needs someone to call it. Maybe they can consult those who have written recently to see if they can meet them in particular, as some sort of just reward. Has anyone suggested venues yet? I don't know there much. If someone can host right near them, that's the ultimate in short travel time.
I'd totally forgotten about ELUG, so didn't include them as a struggler in my earlier comments.
Until our generous list hosts at blackcat tell us we're too big, I think unsubscribing just for lurking is a bit harsh. The automatic processes seem to reap the bouncers after a month or so at worst.
In response to things earlier in the day:
If I think something is better, then I may say that. Someone else can say that they think it's not. People can try to convince each other. As long as it's opinions, both are right in saying *they think* it's better. Long arguments about who is more justified probably shouldn't be on the list. Set out your thoughts and then continue in private email or at a meeting. Try to avoid circles.
I would really prefer not to see statements like "hasn't got anywhere near [...] a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe" stated as if they were facts rather than opinions. That depends on the meaning of so many words like "near", "viable" and "average". Also, we have our own commercial software writers and I'm quite happy if some of the Windows horrors don't come. Finally, it's worth remembering that different flavours of Microsoft Windows support different hardware to each other, so even upgrades within that group of products can leave you with doorstop kit.
No-one's picked up on it, but Tony said he asks manufacturers about driver support. That's worth doing, even if you get no result. Water droplets can change a mountain eventually if there are enough of them.
To Stowmarket by train after Ely meetings is possible but slow, Ely d2300 Cambridge a2317 d2330 Stowmarket a0032. I think Anglia's Plus tickets are now valid on all trains Ely-Cambridge so it shouldn't cost more.
The message 627288ec248353848e3d7b6c7afa0a6b@bouncing.localnet from MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com contains these words:
Until our generous list hosts at blackcat tell us we're too big, I think unsubscribing just for lurking is a bit harsh. The automatic processes seem to reap the bouncers after a month or so at worst.
I don't think anyone suggested that dedicated lurkers should be unsubscribed. Probably, there are people who receive the list and who CBA to read it and CBA to unsubscribe themselves.
However, I suppose that there's always the hope that a sudden availability of correctly-shaped tuits or a rush of enthusiasm might ressurect their interest and they all will live happily ever after.
In response to things earlier in the day:
If I think something is better, then I may say that. Someone else can say that they think it's not. People can try to convince each other. As long as it's opinions, both are right in saying *they think* it's better. Long arguments about who is more justified probably shouldn't be on the list. Set out your thoughts and then continue in private email or at a meeting. Try to avoid circles.
Cliques? Or circular arguments?
Or both?
I would really prefer not to see statements like "hasn't got anywhere near [...] a viable alternative to Windows for the average Joe" stated as if they were facts rather than opinions.
Well, fair's fair, while some distros which are appearing attempt to make installation and use much easier and more intuitive, my experience in trying them has resulted in their falling over before ever I had a chance to try to bork them: that's S.u.S.E. a couple or three years ago, and Mandrake 7.1, so I think the accusation is justified.
That depends on the meaning of so many words like "near", "viable" and "average". Also, we have our own commercial software writers and I'm quite happy if some of the Windows horrors don't come. Finally, it's worth remembering that different flavours of Microsoft Windows support different hardware to each other, so even upgrades within that group of products can leave you with doorstop kit.
"near", "viable" and "average" have very specific meanings and I guess they are pretty-well understood by most people, and even sloppy use of them can only wander a short way either from their proper or intended meanings.
No-one could argue that the real horrors of Windows should be mightily eschewed, nor what I believe to be an element of cynical commercial built-in obsolescence, so that successive (alleged) upgrades of Windows and some of its applications are not backwards-compatible.
No-one's picked up on it, but Tony said he asks manufacturers about driver support. That's worth doing, even if you get no result. Water droplets can change a mountain eventually if there are enough of them.
Yers. Most of them don't respond at all. When I get all my stored boxen back here to this, my new abode (If ever I find the room!) I'll look out the three letters I did receive in return.
One was quite terse and said they only supported M$ Windows; another said that not enough people used Linux for the development to be viable; and the third said they were watching the situation 'with interest'.
To the second I replied that as there were so few manufacturers catering for Linux that if they did write drivers for their scanner they would corner the market before anyone else did, but after that they sort-of went dead key.
To Stowmarket by train after Ely meetings is possible but slow, Ely d2300 Cambridge a2317 d2330 Stowmarket a0032. I think Anglia's Plus tickets are now valid on all trains Ely-Cambridge so it shouldn't cost more.
How much would it cost to hire a minibus for an evening, pick up all interested parties (as fas as economically could be worked out) and return them in a state of unfitness to drive, I wonder?
Well, fair's fair, while some distros which are appearing attempt to make installation and use much easier and more intuitive, my experience in trying them has resulted in their falling over before ever I had a chance to try to bork them: that's S.u.S.E. a couple or three years ago, and Mandrake 7.1, so I think the accusation is justified.
Still true to an extent but three years is a very long time in linux development.
The reason I have begun using linux regularly for the past year for simple things like email, web browsing and wordprocessing (mandrake versions from 8.2 onwards) is that things have progressed a lot in a couple or three years. And continue to move forward rapidly which gives me even more confidence for continuing to do so.
Syd
On 2003-11-29 10:15:20 +0000 Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
Cliques? Or circular arguments? Or both?
Both, although I meant arguments which go around in loops, really.
"near", "viable" and "average" have very specific meanings and I guess they are pretty-well understood by most people, and even sloppy use of them can only wander a short way either from their proper or intended meanings.
Bad wording by me (and trust a sheddie to shred it out). OK, the words have specific meanings themselves, but their meaning in this context is difficult. There are few people trying to measure what is "average" computer user skill and "near" and "viable" are highly subjective. Claiming absolute statements about those seems inutile.
To the second I replied that as there were so few manufacturers catering for Linux that if they did write drivers for their scanner they would corner the market before anyone else did, but after that they sort-of went dead key.
"Argh! Having to think about our actions!"? Still, I thank you for trying. I do when I have reason to, too.
How much would it cost to hire a minibus for an evening, pick up all interested parties (as fas as economically could be worked out) and return them in a state of unfitness to drive, I wonder?
Anything from 60 quid to 260 for 17 seats, it seems. Do we have a category D1 driver? Can the people needing it really get that organised? It would be great if they could and a elegant solution to the pathetic transport system in this region.
About the list having a goat: would that be a genetically engineered goat, large? Whose genetics would be engineering it?
The message d10573b9b1dd4bbdab827af74094cf79@bouncing.localnet from MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com contains these words:
/crop/
About the list having a goat: would that be a genetically engineered goat, large? Whose genetics would be engineering it?
ATM I think it is a virtual goat, but it seems to me to be expanding into the space available like a sort-of gradual embodiment of neo-Parkinsonism.
I vote we keep careful watch on it and throw it some virtual forage from time to time. You never know, one day we might be able to milk it for all it's worth.
On Sunday 30 November 2003 12:51, MJ Ray wrote:
Do we have a category D1 driver?
Yep, But if you want more than 16 seats then it's Category D you need.
Mind you, I am not the best choice for a nominated driver. I would gladly do it, but I only have time to make it to infrequent meetings. This could be the excuse for me to actually drag myself away from other commitments and make a conscious effort to actually come to a meeting.
So if you need a D1 driver, give me a shout and I'll rearrange my hectic life a bit and make the effort.
Regards Wayne
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 12:51:34PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-29 10:15:20 +0000 Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
How much would it cost to hire a minibus for an evening, pick up all interested parties (as fas as economically could be worked out) and return them in a state of unfitness to drive, I wonder?
Anything from 60 quid to 260 for 17 seats, it seems. Do we have a category D1 driver?
Might do. Sounds like it means leaving Norwich and not having beer mind, and I've already done that once for ALUG this year.
J.
The message 20031204175822.GX24665@earth.li from Jonathan McDowell noodles@earth.li contains these words:
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 12:51:34PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-29 10:15:20 +0000 Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
How much would it cost to hire a minibus for an evening, pick up all interested parties (as fas as economically could be worked out) and return them in a state of unfitness to drive, I wonder?
Anything from 60 quid to 260 for 17 seats, it seems. Do we have a category D1 driver?
Might do. Sounds like it means leaving Norwich and not having beer mind, and I've already done that once for ALUG this year.
I'd certainly be happy to chip in with a bottle of decent beer as compensation on such a trip.
On 2003-11-28 11:44:36 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
A quick look through my archives seem to suggest 30% of postings on applications although slanted towards setting them up, 30% towards hardware and 30% towards free software related issues, hosting co. recommendations, diversions from technical talk etc. (and i know it adds up to only 90% :))
Interesting. I don't compile statistics from the archive that often myself. A casual glance towards the list seems to show very few cases where people are actually discussing uses of GNU/Linux. I wonder: do people not find any problems or interest with that, or do they just give up and email forever after getting the basics installed?
Do we need to offer some compelling reasons to attend?
Free beer?
Kind of tricky when we keep meeting with bars. Would have been useful on Sunday, though ;-)
Should we go further and effectively split the group geographically?
Lets try and build meetings in particular locations more often, and try and not let them clash. I still don't think splitting the mailing list will necessarily help, but having seperate area groups pages on the website maybe with links to the list?
I've tried to do this with area pages now. Any contributions for the different area pages are welcome, especially links to projects. Maybe the links to the list need to be more obvious? I also need to add a web form to the site. For information, I'm probably aiming K.Lynn meetings at "Wednesday after the 13th" in each month, so next one is Wednesday 17th. All welcome (...and yes, I've changed the car directions.)
MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
I want the lurkers to speak up. We have 250 addresses getting copies of this. Even if we assume that all the meeting venues get different people (definitely untrue IMO), that means we only see about three dozen of them to talk with. How do we get the other seven-eighths involved?
I'm an inveterate lurker, although not 100%, as I have posted to the list occasionally usually when I need help. So why don't I offer help? My biggest problem is my memory! Not very good. I find that I can often manage to get something working under Linux that has turned out not to be straightforward then I see a posting on ALUG from someone trying to do the same thing that I did 6 months ago. But having been using it for sixth months I have no idea now how or what I did then and by the time I've done a little pondering there are 5 answers on the list anyway.
I have never been to a meeting as, generally, they are too far away from me (between Colchester and Maldon). I remember one was scheduled to be held at the University at Colchester at a time that I couldn't attend. There hasn't been one since. I have sometimes thought of trying to arrange one at my local village hall although access would be by car only and I not sure that many members would want to go so far south.
I don't like the idea of a name/title change. I like it as it is and can't see any point in changing it.
ALUG is doing a lot better than ELUG which appears to be dormant at the very least and possibly dead.
Great grief! I don't think I have ever posted so many words at one time. Where on earth did they all come from?
(MJ Ray - Thanks for the hosting tip and I've disabled the numbering in replies)
Barry Samuels http://www.beenthere-donethat.org.uk The Unofficial Guide to Great Britain
On 2003-11-28 12:31:54 +0000 Barry Samuels bsamuels@beenthere-donethat.org.uk wrote:
I have never been to a meeting as, generally, they are too far away from me (between Colchester and Maldon). I remember one was scheduled to be held at the University at Colchester at a time that I couldn't attend. There hasn't been one since. I have sometimes thought of trying to arrange one at my local village hall although access would be by car only and I not sure that many members would want to go so far south.
Oh I don't know, there's some ipswich types that want meetings round that area, and there's the usual bunch of "it's a meeting, we'll get there" types (MJR, Adam, sometimes myself, just getting back in to the habit :). Try suggesting a meeting place, see what sort of response it gets on the list, and look at the meeting howto on the alug site (I'm sure MJR will post a link to the HOWTO, as I can't find it at the moment :).
Cheers,
Brett.
On 2003-11-28 12:45:23 +0000 Brett Parker brettp@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
suggesting a meeting place, see what sort of response it gets on the list, and look at the meeting howto on the alug site (I'm sure MJR will post a link to the HOWTO, as I can't find it at the moment :).
http://www.alug.org.uk/articles/2003/howtomeet.html and it's in part of the site that still needs the new broom to sweep through, which is why you couldn't find it.
MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com wrote:
I want the lurkers to speak up. We have 250 addresses getting copies of this. Even if we assume that all the meeting venues get different people (definitely untrue IMO), that means we only see about three dozen of them to talk with. How do we get the other seven-eighths involved?
Sorry about the bad cut.
I'm a lurker (well for a while), but mainly can't make meetings cause the time of meetings doesn't suit, the location, or the fact I'm not available. I've been trying to make a meeting for the past year, but what with personal things, work etc just havn't been able to make the many meets on Sundays. Its not that I don't want to attend, its just having any free time to attend that doesn't coincide with being on call (one of my irks in life is being on call 24/7 for a 2000 computer farm (thats in use 24/7) 1 week in 3 - it doesn't run linux though) is very very rare as I arrange activitys on the non-call weeks often 6 months in advance. And with being out of country all of December I don't see things changing this year.
The beer nights up in Ely have been appealing (and are are the right days for me being non-weekends), but blinkin Anglia railways don't run trains back to Stowmarket late enough (where I abode) to make it worthwhile. I'd drive, but a pub night isn't a pub night without more than 1 pint of real ale.
So to summarise, in my case its a case of waiting - I will get involved, promise, but when I'm less busy in the coming month/year.. - and theres not really much you guys could have done any way in the past year to make it easier to attend - I could easily have made several meetings if it wasn't for being doing other things arranged months in advance.
And an update about me/what I do. I'm M/24/seeing someone, with a healthy interest in Linux. Live in Stowmarket, work on in IT Security (Eneterprise class firewall/ids/policy) for a large insurance broker, which involves coworking with a lot of banks etc. Job involves a lot of open-source. Presviously used to Sysadmin at Uksolutions (www.uksolutions.co.uk) when I previously have posted in the past.
Cheers
Dan
The message 56d660c2bce34bf5357a37db74952817@bouncing.localnet from MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com contains these words:
Is Syd right that more frequent meetings in each place will build numbers?
Probably.
Might get the same numbers but with a larger turnover of individuals.
The message 20031128083249.GG16630@thebowery.co.uk from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
/snip/
I am not necessarily a GNUWinII fan, just I advocate handing it out to people who don't want to install Linux (because quite frankly installing Linux and getting it to work with all of your hardware can be a pain, and I don't think its an option to say to interested people "hey, yeah Linux is really cool. oh btw you need to buy a new graphics card and a supported webcam because that one is no good and you then need to apply these patches that you can find on the internet to get that digital camera working" most people will look at you and say "but it works in windows now and if Linux is "better" why won't it work?"
If anyone is interested I have an elderly distro called 'Mini Linux' which claims to work in a DOS partition and coexist, so you have a C:\linux directory.
Requires a huge 20 MB......
I did install it, try it and it got so far and then fell over.
Probably something I did wrong.
What's GNUWinII?
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:21:50AM +0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
What's GNUWinII?
http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/index.html I did say somewhere up there ^^^ but essentialy GnuWinII is a cd-rom collection of free software apps that run on windows and come with those nice pointy clicky installers that the windows world is used to.
Adam
The message 20031128124229.GN16630@thebowery.co.uk from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 11:21:50AM +0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
What's GNUWinII?
http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/index.html I did say somewhere up there ^^^ but essentialy GnuWinII is a cd-rom collection of free software apps that run on windows and come with those nice pointy clicky installers that the windows world is used to.
Any use in Windows to begin the subversion and eventual seduction of Winusers, or just as a 'visual aid' to lull them into a false sense of security?
I can't believe anyone is seriously considering changing what ALUG stands for. "A rose by any other name" etc etc... changing the name would be confusing for people who are currently only vaguely aware of us (and who might be future members), and pointless, also trying to influence what people talk about is not a good idea. If the members want to talk about kernels and distributions, and do installs at meetings, then that's what should happen. And if there is some sort of user applications interest, then that will happen too. Personally I wouldn't mind finding out more about gnucash and I intended to ask some questions at Syleham but I didn't manage to attend that meeting.
Anyway my point is that ALUG is for the members by the members and since nobody is really in charge, the only thing to do is go with the flow (unless the members want to institute a sort of committee who would consider things like name changes). My vote, if ALUG has any sort of democracy, is to leave everything as it is, well alone. I want to say this as I am starting to get the feeling that if those of us who are quietly disbelieving this thread don't speak up, they may end up being members of "ALUG's a Lively User Group" or something equally silly (no offense intended, but *ewwww*).
/Kirsty
MJ Ray wrote:
On 2003-11-27 12:10:58 +0000 John Woodard mail@johnwoodard.co.uk wrote:
I'm with Adam on this one I don't see anything wrong with the current name and the explanation of on the website and in the FAQ. Primarily we discuss linux kernel GNU systems.
I suggest that this is a bug and part of the reason why numbers are flattening out. We don't do enough user land stuff any more. It's all installs, distributions and kernels. Maybe I'm as much to blame, as I keep bringing broken machines to meetings (or, more exactly, the same machine, differently broken each time so far) and my last present was very low-level, but it would be nice to have more demos and more presents.
Changing the name is suggested as a reminder to include other things. Maybe we should try for "ALUG's a Lively User Group" and see if that starts any fires.
I'm a bit surprised by Adam on this, as I thought he was a GNUWinII fan and very concerned with user land things.
More about kernels from me later.
Interesting point, but I think it reflects the reality of what "most" LUGs are, which is, IMO, a collective of techies and newbies interested in getting Linux (as in the kernel and some apps) working on their kit. Once that hurdle is passed for a newbie, they've become a techie. I suspect userland apps will always be a minority sport in the context of a LUG. That said, if we feel part of our remit or raison d'etre as a LUG is to take an X desktop and show people with little knowledge of Linux that there's an alternative to M$, then that would require a particular effort in that direction. A tough one, that. Most of us are just too busy...
Cheers, Laurie.
The message 0dba675e74e9f0dde1e7bd8a26d24fb5@bouncing.localnet from MJ Ray mjr@dsl.pipex.com contains these words:
On 2003-11-27 12:10:58 +0000 John Woodard mail@johnwoodard.co.uk wrote:
I'm with Adam on this one I don't see anything wrong with the current name and the explanation of on the website and in the FAQ. Primarily we discuss linux kernel GNU systems.
AOL
Kirsty TAAAW
I suggest that this is a bug and part of the reason why numbers are flattening out. We don't do enough user land stuff any more. It's all installs, distributions and kernels. Maybe I'm as much to blame, as I keep bringing broken machines to meetings (or, more exactly, the same machine, differently broken each time so far) and my last present was very low-level, but it would be nice to have more demos and more presents.
It was unfortunate that my preoccupations were on my own box and though there was a viable installation on it, more was added, little credit to my knowledge. Though it wasn't borked, I have to thank those who rallied round and gave me a new password and (possibly) a new username - can I remember? It won't be another nine months before I learn to do something useful in linux, honest folks.
(Have already fired-up and fiddled with Mozilla's HTML editor, and shall be importing files to mangle from my Winbox. Soon. [FDVOS])
Changing the name is suggested as a reminder to include other things. Maybe we should try for "ALUG's a Lively User Group" and see if that starts any fires.
I'm reluctant to stick an oar in here as I've only listed in this direction for a short time, thobut I've been meaning to ever since I knew there was a list.
I've been meaning to get into Linux for seven or eight years, and still have a Lasermoon FT distro from just after that time.
Ah! The road to hell is paved.....
However, FWIW, and before someone says "Well, why didn't you say so at the time?" I really can't see the point in changing the name of the group unless someone comes up with something so scintillating that there really is no option.
However laudable have been some of the suggestions, I don't think that point has been reached.
I'm a bit surprised by Adam on this, as I thought he was a GNUWinII fan and very concerned with user land things.
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 12:10:58 +0000 John Woodard mail@johnwoodard.co.uk wrote:
However I quite like A Load of Unlikely Geeks if we really have to change! :-)
or Argumentative Load of Uncoordinated Geeks?
Keith
The message 20031127095023.GD16630@thebowery.co.uk from adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
I was going to write something here about corporate rebranding, but then forgot what i was going to write, you will have to imagine it :)
Post Office +n£M -> Consignia -> Post Office -n1£M?
The message 200311270942.16284.ian@redtommo.com from IanBell ian@redtommo.com contains these words:
On Thursday 27 Nov 2003 8:55 am, MJ Ray wrote:
Still has the two parts I don't really like: one program and nothing else; "User Group". Why not (stealing shamelessly): ALUG's a Libre Unix Group?
Top notch bit of Franglais there. Should that not be:
ALUG c'est Group Unix Libre ?
We could AGUL about this for ever.
-
adam＠thebowery.co.uk -
Anthony Anson -
Ben Francis -
BenEBoy -
Brett Parker -
bsamuels＠beenthere-donethat.org.uk -
D.I. Redhouse -
Dan Jones -
Daniel Silverstone -
Dennis Dryden -
Graham Trott -
IanBell -
John Woodard -
Jonathan McDowell -
Keith Watson -
Kirsten Naylor -
Laurie Brown -
Martin Collins -
Matt Parker -
MJ Ray -
Paul -
Stan Fraser -
Syd Hancock -
syd＠toufol.com
-
Wayne Stallwood