First I would like to know if anyone reading this list has any affinity for the ideas I'm proposing. If no one here wants organised talks / lectures, which implies a slightly more formalised structure to ALUG meetings, then so be it. Unless there are others who would attend these and would enjoy them then clearly there is no little point anyone bothering further. OK, so here's a list of items I'd like some 'talks' on. And before anyone answers any of these with a simple "oh that's easy to answer, all you have to do is . . " please remember that this is not the same as a talk on a subject, where those listening can break in from time to time to get a point explained again or in a different way. Where at the end you can ask to go over an issue again, or perhaps have a further chat with the speaker. Mail lists like these are great but only can cover certain types of queries well. A beginners Linux course / talks perhaps some of the following could be covered. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) At any one time, in the Windows world there is really only one OS and one desktop. In the Linux world there are many dozens. A breakdown of what's available, which is better for certain tasks, what differences there are between them and covering which issues are significant to beginners. 2) How does Linux differ from Windows. Is this important? (Only a very little politics, I mean in broad operational tasks) 3) Do all Linux flavours use the same disk operating system? How does this compare to FAT & NTFS etc. 4) Linux flavours - is it best to stick to one, better to run more than one for different tasks etc. 5) Given we do not want to become system administrators, and are home users, discuss "what" we need to learn to (1) get started, (2) progress to a moderate level of expertise. i.e. at what point is a knowledge of command line commands absolutely necessary - if it is. 6) A beginner's lecture on what Linux is, how it differs from Unix, if the difference between Linux variants is important or not. Can you load a Unix program on a Linux system if the need arose? 7) A run down of the Linux directory structure - where programs are, where your data should go. What goes in the other areas. What we can mess with. What we shouldn't. 8) How to manage the system / how to handle backups. Is there a built in backup program, if not discuss 3rd party options. 9) How to install programs. How to delete a program. How to upgrade a program. What's and when to use a binary/source/rmp/deb install? 10) How to flatten a hard disk, if I want to try out a different version of Linux. 11) After installing a new or second hard disk - how to fdisk / format (windows terms I'm afraid) once it's installed. Learn which files can be moved to the new disk, which can't, or doesn't it matter? 12) An in depth of how 3rd party programs are installed. How to do it, how to set them up, etc. E.g. some seem allied to Red Hat - if they are, can they still be loaded and run in another's Linux version etc. 13) Show us the different desktops - KDE, Gnome & others etc., with a discussion about their differences. Discuss whether its useful to have different desktops installed for different functions. 14) Discuss simple console line commands. Do we really need these? What can they do that an equivalent software pop up window can't? 15) Explain what X windows is. (I think this is what it was called.) 16) How to open multiple windows, that reopen where they were opened before. Is this a problem with my version of Linux, or a KDE issue, or what? Last OS I used that worked properly was OS/2. 17) How to set up an old PC as a firewall / email handling box on a simple home network. 18) How to install fonts. Xandros seems poor here - maybe that's only Xandros. Software demonstrations : ------------------------- 1) Open Office - well why not? By someone who knows the similarities / differences, and can demo a few interesting advanced features. 2) A look at other options for word processor. Vi is often mentioned but is said to be complex. Is this so? 3) Apache - yes I'd like to have and run a server at home to simulate an ISP, with ancillary software integrated. A simple look at all this would be interesting. 4) Demo of Windows applications running on Linux boxes. So terrible? 5) MySQL - A number of web sites seems to use it, a basic starter would be good. Is it a good GP database for storing home user info on? 6) PHP - often allied with MySQL. Another basic starter, and good to demo what it can and can't do. Does this sound like a full time college course? Possibly, but covering just a few topics would be a start. I've hastily made this list not with the intention of asking ALUG to cover them all - obviously impossible, but there must be ALUG members reading this who know a piece of Linux software well and who would be happy to share their knowledge for a short period to beginners, and perhaps others in the group would be interested as well. ~~~~~~~ Adam
Why can you not arrange a series of lectures? If you take care of the organising bits that only leaves you to find some people willing to talk.
Er, with that suggestion, what else is there left to do? No, if this has to happen it surely has to happen as a group exercise led preferably by the current ALUG organisers, or if not by a number of interested people - or not at all. In any case it would be difficult to start something like this against the background of disapproval that seems to be present. I'm willing to do my bit, but to simply off-load the creation of a series of talks onto a beginner, and ask me to find and organise all the speakers is not really on is it? One of the points of the Alug group is surely that over the years advanced Linux users will get know one another, and a little of what they do. Those currently running the group are correct to cajole the rest of us for being inactive. As I said I'm willing to help. But other than my home town I cannot reasonably be expected to publicise any talks further afield. Once an event is confirmed, I'm happy to create a web page to publicise it - for the organisers to add to the ALUG site.
That's what I'm doing - asking for them.
The way you asked was to say that the meetings were not worthwhile and say that Alug was not doing enough.
What I said was "I've been to four of five ALUG meetings and to *me* they're a waste of time." I was not saying they were not worthwhile to others. Over time the number that attend these meeting will show how this is viewed. As to ALUG not doing enough, I am of course trying to produce constructive criticism here. I doubt the group will be damaged by reading my comments. If enough agree, then the group will move in a certain direction. If they don't, well things can continue as now.
That is not a very good way to get on the right side of people, a much more tactful way of doing it would be to say something along the lines of . . .
Please let's not reduce this to a review of words used. I intended to open this topic up to see if other felt the same. If I don't state what I think, the debate is pointless.
If you try and start the program you could arrange all of the above, the only thing you need is some willing volunteers (or victims) ;) to do the training.
Joking or not, I'm saddened if anyone contributing their knowledge and skills to others who wish to learn should see it in this light. I certainly do not want to impose an unpleasant task on anyone. It's peoples free time after all, and it really has to start with their volunteering.
Again I think this is a chicken and egg scenario, people don't want to be bothered sorting this kind of thing out without people asking. You could try and find 9 more people willing to pay for a days introduction and then ask here for people willing to do it.
I think this is the wrong way round. This may be valid in a company setting - where you want to train a group - so you approach someone to do it and set it up in house. My intention here was to see if anyone in the group just happened to be a trainer, who from time to time conducted courses in this region, and who would be interested in helping the group. Once you have a face in the slot, and a willingness to tackle a subject, then you can try publicising it to see if there's interest. That's the chicken and egg from my perspective. Also once you get into this realm of paying for something then it needs even more pre-planning and needs good advance notice etc. Hence college courses I suppose. Unfortunately a commercial training project also suffers from the problem that it's less easy to persuaded shops & businesses to publicise your talks with leaflets if they feel that they're being used to surreptitiously advertise a commercial project for free. I'm sorry you seem to be rather against this idea and do not find any value in it. Unless a number of others come forward to express a positive endorsement to these ideas, it shows I'm clearly out of step with the group. _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
I've been following this with some concern, since the discussion has not been cooperative on the whole. A pity, since Colin has been asking a number of good questions very relevant to someone who is used to working with Windows and seems to be finding the path to Linux daunting and confusing. I can sympathise with the latter. When I came to Linux, back in 1992, I already had good (though basic) Unix experience, and I knew that Unix on the same hardware made DOS (in those days) look like a badly programmed pocket calculator in comparison. In short, it was clear that Unix was an operating system with which you could easily get stunning performance out of your hardware. Windows, later, put a clumsy GUI o top of DOS and only made a bad situation worse (while managing to conceal under the GUI). But Linux, in those days, was a close clone of bare-bones Unix. No GUI, for instance -- X windows only came in later. So it was not too daunting to get to grips with the system. However, once X windows came in and became generally adopted, complexity and confusion came with it. Not that there was anything particularly confused about how it was put together -- rather, the mere interface itself was so complicated in its internals that users who wanted to stay in control as they had been before faced a serious task of learning a large number of new and complicated things. The coming of "desktops" such as KDE and Gnome on top of X windows put even more layers of complexity on the fundamental and lucid simplicity of Unix. Whereas in Windows you don't (by design) need to worry much about how it all works (it's designed to be used without thought or understanding), still now in Linux to get to grips with how you want your computer to work requires considerable knowledge and understanding. I find this is true even for an "old hand" like myself. What it must be like to come up against it in all its modern glory for the first time, without previous basic Unix-type experience, I find it hard to imagine. Colin has given us a list of 18 questions, which could probably form the basis of a series of talks/demos, so I think he has well answered the challenge to come up with what he wants. I'm not sure I understand all of them properly, and I think some of them can be given short answers (attempts below). Some of them could also be topics for extensive presentations. I've indicated with an asterisk ones where I could myself contribute at least a basic account (with two asterisks where I could go further) -- though I have to confess I'm rather short of time at the moment. ======================================================================= A beginners Linux course / talks perhaps some of the following could be covered. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1) At any one time, in the Windows world there is really only one OS and one desktop. In the Linux world there are many dozens. A breakdown of what's available, which is better for certain tasks, what differences there are between them and covering which issues are significant to beginners. [Linux: basically one OS, but many desktops.] **2) How does Linux differ from Windows. Is this important? (Only a very little politics, I mean in broad operational tasks) [Not that I' know enough about Windows to detail technical differences; but it wouldn't take long, demonstrating various things possible on Linux, to show that (a) there are many differences; (b) they are important.] 3) Do all Linux flavours use the same disk operating system? How does this compare to FAT & NTFS etc. [There is no longer a unique filesystem type. Previously, "ext2" was universal. Now there are also "ext3", journaling filesystems, "reiser" (a journaling type) at least. Linux can also read from and write to other types of filesystem, such as MSDOS, FAT, VFAT, Apple, ..., though they're not "native".] 4) Linux flavours - is it best to stick to one, better to run more than one for different tasks etc. [Here it's mainly a matter of what you get on with rather than what they can do -- Linux flavours don't differ much in what functional capabilities they can support, as opposed to cosmetic differences which are kaleidoscopic. Different packaged distributions do, however, differ in what they decide to put in the box.] *5) Given we do not want to become system administrators, and are home users, discuss "what" we need to learn to (1) get started, (2) progress to a moderate level of expertise. i.e. at what point is a knowledge of command line commands absolutely necessary - if it is. [Once you appreciate what the underlying operating system is really about, you'll understand very vividly that the "command line" is the heart of the whole business; I include shell scripts which are basically "batch files" of command lines.] *6) A beginner's lecture on what Linux is, how it differs from Unix, if the difference between Linux variants is important or not. Can you load a Unix program on a Linux system if the need arose? [Linux and Unix are basically the same thing, just as all vaccuum cleaners are -- which is why you can call Linux "unix" just as you can call any vaccuum cleaner a "hoover". However, both differ from Windows much as a hoover differs from a dustpan and brush. However, "loading" a generic Unix program onto a Linux system generally means compiling it from source code on the system you intend to use it on. This also applies to different "flavours" of Linux, and to different (earlier of later) versions of Linux (though that's also true of Unix). However, the main distributors of Linux systems also distribute compiled "binaries" of various programs which can just be unpacked onto the system.] *7) A run down of the Linux directory structure - where programs are, where your data should go. What goes in the other areas. What we can mess with. What we shouldn't. [Really quite a big one this, and best addressed by a real expert.] 8) How to manage the system / how to handle backups. Is there a built in backup program, if not discuss 3rd party options. [There are builtin programs, "Unix tools", which you can use to roll your own backup system. However, doing this properly requires expertise and experience in coordinating the various tools which are part and parcel of a Linux/Unix system. There are also 3rd party solutions where someone else has thought out the complications for you.] *9) How to install programs. How to delete a program. How to upgrade a program. What's and when to use a binary/source/rmp/deb install? 10) How to flatten a hard disk, if I want to try out a different version of Linux. [Not sure I understand, but if you mean what I think then the installation process normally invites you to re-format the drive, which has that effect. But it's also possible to install more than one version of Linux on the same system, with the "lilo" boot-manager giving you the choice of which one to boot into. Provided you have enough disk space, of course.] *11) After installing a new or second hard disk - how to fdisk / format (windows terms I'm afraid) once it's installed. Learn which files can be moved to the new disk, which can't, or doesn't it matter? [fdisk -- Linux command as well! -- is straightforward enough, though care is advised. Your second question has many ramifications.] 12) An in depth of how 3rd party programs are installed. How to do it, how to set them up, etc. E.g. some seem allied to Red Hat - if they are, can they still be loaded and run in another's Linux version etc. [Usually such programs come with a file called "INSTALL" or "README.INSTALL" which gives full instructions for what to do. Sometimes this is a simple as "change directory to ... and enter the command ./install, then answer the questions." Or the "deb", "rpm", ... package manager will automate the whole thing.] 13) Show us the different desktops - KDE, Gnome & others etc., with a discussion about their differences. Discuss whether its useful to have different desktops installed for different functions. **14) Discuss simple console line commands. Do we really need these? What can they do that an equivalent software pop up window can't? [You do need them. A popup window truly equivalent to a given command line would of course do exactly the same thing: that's what "equivalent" means. But it's the flexibility arising from the many options to a command, and above all the fact that many different commands can be chained -- "piped" -- in a single command which gives the command line its enormous power. You're not going to find this, in all its possibilities, pre-packaged in someone's pre-cooked menu system.] *15) Explain what X windows is. (I think this is what it was called.) 16) How to open multiple windows, that reopen where they were opened before. Is this a problem with my version of Linux, or a KDE issue, or what? Last OS I used that worked properly was OS/2. [I don't think I understand this question.] *17) How to set up an old PC as a firewall / email handling box on a simple home network. 18) How to install fonts. Xandros seems poor here - maybe that's only Xandros. Software demonstrations : ------------------------- 1) Open Office - well why not? By someone who knows the similarities / differences, and can demo a few interesting advanced features. **2) A look at other options for word processor. Vi is often mentioned but is said to be complex. Is this so? [Vi is not so much a word processor in the sense a Windows user would understand as an editor for text files -- think of it as a grown-up "notepad". Basic use of vi is very simple, once you get the hang of its two-mode ("command" and "insert") way of working. However, its more advanced features have incredible power for manipulating text in a programmatic fashion. There's even a demo of vi, all on its own, re-writing and re-writing a block of characters so as to implement the game of 'Hanoi'. There are "conventional" (WYSIWIG) word-processors available, e.g. in OpenOffice and StarOffice, and stand-alone prgrams like Ted (edits RTF files) and a relatively recent interesting one called "textmaker". However, the traditional strength of unix in document preparation lie in so-called "typesetting" programs: troff/groff, TeX/LaTeX/etc, SGML (known as docbook in Linux) and more recently XML etc. Typically these are "two-pass" operations: first you prepare a source file (which is plain text with plain-text markup: use vi for this if you like it), and then you submit this to the formatter which produces properly laid-out text. The control and power you have over what goes on the page, and where, with these is simply on a different level from what goes on in Word. I can do a demo of groff; and it would be worth trying to get Jonathan Fine from Cambridge LUG to do his TeX demo. Both of these are intended somewhat to show off the capabilities.] 3) Apache - yes I'd like to have and run a server at home to simulate an ISP, with ancillary software integrated. A simple look at all this would be interesting. *4) Demo of Windows applications running on Linux boxes. So terrible? [I could do a demo of VMWare: emulates PC hardware in software so as to create a "virtual machine" into which you can boot anything you could install on a naked PC. The VM runs on the Linux system, and Windows runs inside theVM. Basically indistinguisbale from standalone Windows. Meanwhile Linux is running the whole show, and you can easily flip away from the Windows VM to do anything else you would normally do in Linux.] 5) MySQL - A number of web sites seems to use it, a basic starter would be good. Is it a good GP database for storing home user info on? 6) PHP - often allied with MySQL. Another basic starter, and good to demo what it can and can't do. Best wishes, Ted. -------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972 Date: 10-Jul-03 Time: 02:08:59 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Thursday 10 Jul 2003 2:08 am, Ted Harding wrote:
I've been following this with some concern, since the discussion has not been cooperative on the whole. A pity, since Colin has been asking a number of good questions very relevant to someone who is used to working with Windows and seems to be finding the path to Linux daunting and confusing.
Ted, I agree - responses including my own have been rather defensive. Looking back, Colin's first message was clearly written in a mood of frustration and I for one misunderstood what point he was making at first. I too think Colin is making a lot of excellent points. I too think that ALUG could, if there are people will the time and skills available, do much more to promote linux in the region as well as being a self-support group. Syd
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 06:01:00AM +0100, Syd Hancock wrote:
I too think Colin is making a lot of excellent points. I too think that ALUG could, if there are people will the time and skills available, do much more to promote linux in the region as well as being a self-support group.
I think that there are people with skills who could be forced to do technical things, but of course what we really need are people with admin skills to organise and make plans and gather ideas together to make it happen. What we could do with is perhaps a few more people filling out http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?MembersDirectory then reading http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?HelpRequired and possibly someone start a page of HelpOffered and start to sling together a list of what people can do and that doesn't just mean technical people, admin skills, people who can take notes, write documentation that appeals to beginners etc. and translate techy speak would be great. Someone willing to co-ordinate this effort would be great (preferably someone is not technical and someone who is a newbie who can present what is needed in a sensible format to the people who are willing to teach). What would be nice would be a talk from the people who want alug to give them more help and training for newbies. Who is willing to get together with a couple of other newbies to each explain for 5-10 minutes what they want/need etc. and then take a few questions at a meeting as one of the talks? Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
I think that there are people with skills who could be forced to do technical things, but of course what we really need are people with admin skills to organise and make plans and gather ideas together to make it happen.
I've snipped the rest of Adam's message for brevity. I'd like to do a bit more to get something moving. In a couple of week's time I'll hae some more time and energy (school hols). Adam's suggestions are a good basis. I particularly like the idea of a few novices getting togeher (can be done by email) to swap ideas on what we need to know and then bringing that to the group or at a meeting. I will post some sort of remnder about this but in the meantime I am happy to start compiling a list of requests by email. Syd
(Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> <> wrote:
[...] What it must be like to come up against it in all its modern glory for the first time, without previous basic Unix-type experience, I find it hard to imagine.
It wasn't so bad in 96/97 time, but then the normal way to install was from a CD in the back of a book, not connected to the internet, and trash the machine three times in the first week. After a couple of months, you'd upgraded to a CD of a later one and trashed it rarely. It's probably got worse, though. I remember being totally lost and confused when I first tried to run KDE and that was when there wasn't much of it. [Colin's questions]
13) Show us the different desktops - KDE, Gnome & others etc., with a discussion about their differences. Discuss whether its useful to have different desktops installed for different functions. *15) Explain what X windows is. (I think this is what it was called.)
I could go into these in some depth, actually. So far, I have worked on three desktop projects and read more of the standards than I should. Probably this needs to wait until after the more fundamental things, though?
16) How to open multiple windows, that reopen where they were opened before. Is this a problem with my version of Linux, or a KDE issue, or what? Last OS I used that worked properly was OS/2. [I don't think I understand this question.]
I think this is a "session management" question. There are two parts of this:- 1. whatever desktop you are running needs to offer session management KDE and Gnome definitely do, I think GNUstep and XFCE can but might not by default, while most of the smaller ones such as IceWM don't... there is a helper called xsm too, which can let the smaller ones do it. 2. the programs need to answer session management calls. Lots of them do. I think it's in the GNUstep, KDE and Gnome libraries, so they all should. Smaller stand-alone applications (rxvt?) might not. This is something that even many programmers today don't realise should be done, because they started on systems that don't offer it. I think the last OS I used that did this was Oberon System 3... ...that's the theory, at least. I could cover this in more detail once I have some time to test out what does and doesn't work. [...]
18) How to install fonts. Xandros seems poor here - maybe that's only Xandros.
The theory is again simple: put the fonts in a directory and call the right font update program. The practice is worse because there are at least four types of fonts used: Postscript bitmaps and vector, TrueType and NFont. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult."
On Wednesday 09 Jul 2003 10:02 pm, Colin Hards wrote:
First I would like to know if anyone reading this list has any affinity for the ideas I'm proposing. If no one here wants organised talks / lectures, which implies a slightly more formalised structure to ALUG meetings, then so be it. Unless there are others who would attend these and would enjoy them then clearly there is no little point anyone bothering further.
Yes, this is something that I would like to see hapening too although, as Keith points out in another mesage, these things will take time to happen because of other committments. So please don't get frusrtrated if a series of talsk does not materialise within the next few weeks or even months. I don't know much about linux but I am trying to get some regular meetings organised in the Norwich area. Evenng meetings to start with, since that is something that was suggested for people who find weekend meetings difficult to attend because of families etc. I am also thinking of becoming involved in aranging some regular weekend meetings as well. I have found that although the UEA has advantages as a venue, the actual room booking etc is rather haphazard simply because there isn't anyone who can do it regularly. IMHO it would be better to arange something regular and in advance at other venues in the area. Once we then know that there will be a meeting in, say, six months time, at a known venue, then we can start planning in advance what best fornmat and content to have for the meeting. There is a further point which I have raised before. ALUG covers a very large geographic area and I think we need more frequent meetings in different areas of the region. It seems to me that there are few people with the time, dedication and spare petrol money to make a 100 mile round trip to a meeting. I certainly don't for example. So if there is a meeting 50 miles away this weekend then I am very unlikely to go but if there is another meeting next weekend just down the road then I am more likely to go. In other words, because of the geographic spread, IMHO meetings held during the same month but far apart are not in competition with each other since few people are likely to travel to far to them anyway. I would like to have meetings in the Norwich area - including Syleham which is not so far away - at least every three months and, for the reasons above, I don't think that that would detract from other meetings held the same month (but on a different date of course) elsewhere in the region. Any comments? Syd
On Thursday 10 Jul 2003 6:38 am, Syd Hancock wrote:
It seems to me that there are few people with the time, dedication and spare petrol money to make a 100 mile round trip to a meeting. I certainly don't for example. So if there is a meeting 50 miles away this weekend then I am very unlikely to go but if there is another meeting next weekend just down the road then I am more likely to go.
In other words, because of the geographic spread, IMHO meetings held during the same month but far apart are not in competition with each other since few people are likely to travel to far to them anyway.
I would like to have meetings in the Norwich area - including Syleham which is not so far away - at least every three months and, for the reasons above, I don't think that that would detract from other meetings held the same month (but on a different date of course) elsewhere in the region.
Syleham is booked as a venue every 3 months. We were trying to have a Sunday meeting every month but regular venues and hosts are a little on the ground. I would like to see a meeting in Norwich at least as frequently as Syleham. Cheers, BJ
Syleham is booked as a venue every 3 months. We were trying to have a Sunday meeting every month but regular venues and hosts are a little on the ground. I would like to see a meeting in Norwich at least as frequently as Syleham.
Me too. I will have to check the schedule of Syleham bookings so far, and commune with Adam, and see what we can come up with. Syd
On Thursday 10 Jul 2003 6:38 am, Syd Hancock wrote: snip
There is a further point which I have raised before. ALUG covers a very large geographic area and I think we need more frequent meetings in different areas of the region.
It seems to me that there are few people with the time, dedication and spare petrol money to make a 100 mile round trip to a meeting. I certainly don't for example. So if there is a meeting 50 miles away this weekend then I am very unlikely to go but if there is another meeting next weekend just down the road then I am more likely to go.
I think this is an important point. I live in North Norfolk so Norwich is reasonably close but Syleham is a long way for me. I think we once had a meeting in Kings Lyn and even that is nearly a 50 mile trip each way for me. whne you think 'Anglia extends from Cromer in the North to Cambridge in the south and Ipswich in the east it is no wonder some meetings are sparsely attended. Each month Linux Format has a GB map showing the LUGs and ALUG covers a much larger area than any other. Perhaps its time for a Norfolk LUG? Ian -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ian@redtommo.com | Windows - just another pane in the glass | | Ian Thompson-Bell | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Bell <ian@redtommo.com> wrote:
[...] Perhaps its time for a Norfolk LUG?
Maybe, but I don't see why. What benefit would it offer over ALUG that more meetings in more venues wouldn't? Maybe the current Norwich group should be given a clearer role instead, or more general people should offer to co-ordinate an area? Let's try this: I suggest Ian to be in charge of the north coast, Syd I/C Norwich, John I/C borders and Tony (I think) for I/C Ipswich. That leaves West Suffolk, Cambridge and the Fens, as always. Anyone want to avoid the role? Any other volunteers? What do these people want from "the group"? If this hasn't been shot down in flames by the next Norwich meeting, I suggest each area goes gets itself LUG listings. I'll fix the web space (at last). Uhm, what else? MJR
Let's try this: I suggest Ian to be in charge of the north coast, Syd I/C Norwich, John I/C borders and Tony (I think) for I/C Ipswich. That leaves West Suffolk, Cambridge and the Fens, as always. Anyone want to avoid the role? Any other volunteers?
I'm happy to carry on doing what I've started and you can call me anything moderately polite that you wish.
If this hasn't been shot down in flames by the next Norwich meeting, I suggest each area goes gets itself LUG listings.
OK, Mark, LUG novice question here - what does this entail i.e what do we have to do? Syd
Can I say a *very* tentative yes to that? As some of you know, my company is only 6 weeks old, and its taking most of my time at the moment. I'd still love to be involved, and will try hard to find the time, but if I start dragging my heels, I'll be looking to hand the baton on to someone else if there are any other volunteers. TD MJ, what do you mean by each group getting a LUG listing? If that could imply *to other people* that each group is splitting off from ALUG, then I don't think its a good idea. 0.02p worth On Thu, 2003-07-10 at 17:58, MJ Ray wrote:
Ian Bell <ian@redtommo.com> wrote:
[...] Perhaps its time for a Norfolk LUG?
Maybe, but I don't see why. What benefit would it offer over ALUG that more meetings in more venues wouldn't? Maybe the current Norwich group should be given a clearer role instead, or more general people should offer to co-ordinate an area?
Let's try this: I suggest Ian to be in charge of the north coast, Syd I/C Norwich, John I/C borders and Tony (I think) for I/C Ipswich. That leaves West Suffolk, Cambridge and the Fens, as always. Anyone want to avoid the role? Any other volunteers?
What do these people want from "the group"? If this hasn't been shot down in flames by the next Norwich meeting, I suggest each area goes gets itself LUG listings. I'll fix the web space (at last). Uhm, what else?
MJR
_______________________________________________ main@lists.alug.org.uk http://www.alug.org.uk/ http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main Unsubscribe? See message headers or the web site above! -- Tony Dietrich <td@transoft.demon.co.uk> Transoft Computer Consultants
MJ, what do you mean by each group getting a LUG listing? If that could imply *to other people* that each group is splitting off from ALUG, then I don't think its a good idea. 0.02p worth
I agree and think this is really important. It is something I have been wary of since first suggesting local meetings. In practice, if a local lug was formed, it would probably depend a lot on how it was presented on the local lug website. Provided there were clear and explicit links and references to the 'parent' lug then there really should be no misunderstanding. I've been looking at LUG-related websites today and the starting place seems to be http://www.lug.org.uk/ I noticed that there are both a South West LUG and a Devon and Cornwall LUG so I thought that was an interesting example. After all, why not a regional and related area LUGs? Mark suggested last night at the meet that we could have something like norwich.alug or norfolk.alug - I assume you were meaning as a subdomain of the alug.org.uk website or have I missed something completely? Does anyone have any comments on the facilities offered for LUGs by the lug.org.uk site? Syd
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Syd Hancock wrote:
In practice, if a local lug was formed, it would probably depend a lot on how it was presented on the local lug website. Provided there were clear and explicit links and references to the 'parent' lug then there really should be no misunderstanding.
I noticed that there are both a South West LUG and a Devon and Cornwall LUG so I thought that was an interesting example. After all, why not a regional and related area LUGs?
The link to Cambridge LUG on the ALUG web-site is no longer broken, so we seem to be in a similar position. -- Dan
Dan Hatton <dan.hatton@btinternet.com> wrote:
The link to Cambridge LUG on the ALUG web-site is no longer broken, so we seem to be in a similar position.
The web link is the depth of the cooperation between those two groups, thanks mainly to one hair. Hopefully, ALUG members can cooperate a bit more successfully.
Syd Hancock <syd@toufol.com> wrote:
In practice, if a local lug was formed, it would probably depend a lot on how it was presented on the local lug website. Provided there were clear and explicit links and references to the 'parent' lug then there really should be no misunderstanding.
How about this: I'll provide you with whatever materials you want from the current site (page templates, graphics, etc) and you put a web site up somewhere, which I'll copy onto the main site at regular intervals. (Yes, this is a subtle way of getting partial mirrors too...)
I've been looking at LUG-related websites today and the starting place seems to be http://www.lug.org.uk/
To answer your other question, there are also listings on http://lugww.counter.li.org/ and in Linux Format magazine, that I know of. I suggest getting listings for "ALUG Norwich", "ALUG Ipswich" and so on, but pointing at whereever we put the web pages for these. (So we should sort out web sites first?) As I said last night, I think Staffs LUG have North and South listings.
I noticed that there are both a South West LUG and a Devon and Cornwall LUG so I thought that was an interesting example. After all, why not a regional and related area LUGs?
I think South West covers a different area to D&C, which is practically its own region. I could be wrong.
Does anyone have any comments on the facilities offered for LUGs by the lug.org.uk site?
Yes. They caused us no-end of trouble, which is why we have our current excellent hosting. Darren (web site), Jonathan (mailing lists) and Martyn (DNS) are far quicker to act, even if they have lower truck numbers. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TruckNumber -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult."
On Thursday 10 Jul 2003 5:58 pm, MJ Ray wrote:
Ian Bell <ian@redtommo.com> wrote:
[...] Perhaps its time for a Norfolk LUG?
Maybe, but I don't see why. What benefit would it offer over ALUG that more meetings in more venues wouldn't? Maybe the current Norwich group should be given a clearer role instead, or more general people should offer to co-ordinate an area?
Let's try this: I suggest Ian to be in charge of the north coast, Syd I/C Norwich, John I/C borders and Tony (I think) for I/C Ipswich. That leaves West Suffolk, Cambridge and the Fens, as always. Anyone want to avoid the role? Any other volunteers?
What do these people want from "the group"? If this hasn't been shot down in flames by the next Norwich meeting, I suggest each area goes gets itself LUG listings. I'll fix the web space (at last). Uhm, what else?
MJR
Just a tad confused now. First you say Norfolk LUG would have no advantage over ALUG, then you appear to suggest even smaller LUGs or have I missed something? Ian -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ian@redtommo.com | Windows - just another pane in the glass | | Ian Thompson-Bell | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Bell <ian@redtommo.com> wrote:
Just a tad confused now. First you say Norfolk LUG would have no advantage over ALUG, then you appear to suggest even smaller LUGs or have I missed something?
I think you've missed that I'm suggesting keeping the ALUG name and having a number of autonomous meeting groups within it and some of us doing tasks for all. That's pretty much what has been happening lately anyway, with the people around Norwich and the Mid-Suffolk ones, then some doing tasks for ALUG like the library, or Keith's wonderful name badges (online shortly, I hope). It's really just trying to recognise that and present a clearer face to the outside world. You also missed answers to any of the questions posed, but I'll not hold that against you ;-) -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult."
May I make a compromise suggestion? I believe the point I was trying to make is that we can have 'separate districts' within ALUG without making them appear to anyone outside ALUG as even partially separate organisations. Simply whenever anyone new joins ALUG, point them to their local meeting/organiser as their point of contact. That way ALUG remains a single structure, and because of its size and reach, stands a better chance of gaining new members/getting its point across, whilst at the same time offering a local, personal touch to new members. The only change to the website that would be needed would be a page to reflect the fact that there are local contacts in the various areas, and perhaps some way of contacting the local organiser. If we really want to get fancy, another page with a map showing the meet locations, but that would be IMHO a luxury ... perhaps just a multimap link next to the organisers' name would be sufficient. i.e. Syd Hancock <syd@toufol.com> Local Contact/Meet organiser for <Link to multimap Norwich map> TD On Sat, 2003-07-12 at 01:44, MJ Ray wrote:
Ian Bell <ian@redtommo.com> wrote:
Just a tad confused now. First you say Norfolk LUG would have no advantage over ALUG, then you appear to suggest even smaller LUGs or have I missed something?
I think you've missed that I'm suggesting keeping the ALUG name and having a number of autonomous meeting groups within it and some of us doing tasks for all. That's pretty much what has been happening lately anyway, with the people around Norwich and the Mid-Suffolk ones, then some doing tasks for ALUG like the library, or Keith's wonderful name badges (online shortly, I hope). It's really just trying to recognise that and present a clearer face to the outside world.
You also missed answers to any of the questions posed, but I'll not hold that against you ;-) -- Tony Dietrich <td@transoft.demon.co.uk> Transoft Computer Consultants
On Saturday 12 Jul 2003 9:38 am, Tony Dietrich wrote:
May I make a compromise suggestion?
I believe the point I was trying to make is that we can have 'separate districts' within ALUG without making them appear to anyone outside ALUG as even partially separate organisations.
Simply whenever anyone new joins ALUG, point them to their local meeting/organiser as their point of contact.
That way ALUG remains a single structure, and because of its size and reach, stands a better chance of gaining new members/getting its point across, whilst at the same time offering a local, personal touch to new members.
The only change to the website that would be needed would be a page to reflect the fact that there are local contacts in the various areas, and perhaps some way of contacting the local organiser. If we really want to get fancy, another page with a map showing the meet locations, but that would be IMHO a luxury ... perhaps just a multimap link next to the organisers' name would be sufficient.
i.e. Syd Hancock <syd@toufol.com> Local Contact/Meet organiser for <Link to multimap Norwich map>
Now that I do understand. Sounds pefect to me. You can put me down for North Norfolk coast co-ordinator unless anyone else is keen to do it. Ian -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ian@redtommo.com | Windows - just another pane in the glass | | Ian Thompson-Bell | | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Saturday 12 Jul 2003 9:38 am, Tony Dietrich wrote:
I believe the point I was trying to make is that we can have 'separate districts' within ALUG without making them appear to anyone outside ALUG as even partially separate organisations.
Simply whenever anyone new joins ALUG, point them to their local meeting/organiser as their point of contact.
Regarding websites, I'm completely open to either idea, depending on what most people wanted. Not having separate webspace is one less thing to do at present so is probably preferable, certainly for the time being. An email link from the main site could always be changed to a web-site link in the future if/when that was established. Syd
Tony Dietrich <td@transoft.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The only change to the website that would be needed would be a page to reflect the fact that there are local contacts in the various areas, and perhaps some way of contacting the local organiser.
I've made this change to http://www.alug.org.uk/background/jobs.html and the page is linked more prominently from elsewhere in the site, too. Tony, Ian, can I link your email addresses in? Addresses that you use here, or would you rather I used another one?
If we really want to get fancy, another page with a map showing the meet locations, but that would be IMHO a luxury ... perhaps just a multimap link next to the organisers' name would be sufficient.
If someone wants to take http://www.alug.org.uk/alug.html.template and cook up an image map like that, it would be wonderful. Once again, the web site is being simplified. I'll update the docs later today and send them to the list, or you can contact me online (email, jabber, IRC) to ask how if you want to help. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: Edwin A Abbott wrote about trouble with Windows in 1884
MJ Pls use email addy td@transcc.co.uk Thanks TD On Mon, 2003-07-14 at 09:58, MJ Ray wrote:
Tony, Ian, can I link your email addresses in? Addresses that you use here, or would you rather I used another one?
-- Tony Dietrich <td@transoft.demon.co.uk> Transoft Computer Consultants
On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:17 PM, Ian Bell wrote:
I think this is an important point. I live in North Norfolk so Norwich is reasonably close but Syleham is a long way for me. I think we once had a meeting in Kings Lyn and even that is nearly a 50 mile trip each way for me. whne you think 'Anglia extends from Cromer in the North to Cambridge in the south and Ipswich in the east it is no wonder some meetings are sparsely attended. Each month Linux Format has a GB map showing the LUGs and ALUG covers a much larger area than any other. Perhaps its time for a Norfolk LUG?
Norfolk LUG would be bloody easier... if you just thinking Anglia LUG.. then meetings would be situated all over the place. I am not keen to drive over 40 miles to just one place. Sorry peeps, that is just my opinion. Heck, this mailing list seen more people than in real life ;) C
participants (10)
-
Adam Bower -
Colin Hards -
Craig -
Dan Hatton -
Ian Bell -
John Woodard -
MJ Ray -
Syd Hancock -
Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk -
Tony Dietrich