Hi Folks,
I'd be grateful for comments on possible solutions to the following things I'm thinking of looking for.
1. "Mini-laptop"
I'm interested in something hand-held which is very easily carried from point to point, with a keyboard that is easy to use for entering textual information (there will be a lot of this, and accuracy is important). Needs to be connectable to "mainframe" box via ethernet (or USB at a pinch).
A standard laptop is rather too cumbersome and awkward (needs to be stood on something and the fold-down screen would tend to flap around; also it would very much be on the heavy side for what I have in mind. I'm envisaging using this while standing, walking around, or even crouching.)[**1]
Probably the "PDA" type of thing is too tiny for my spatulate fingertips, but that's the sort of size (or somewhat bigger) which I have in mind.
And linux-capable of course!
2. Headless and handless (and legless -- just a tube up the bum)
Here I'm interested in a simple small silent box with a full-scale computer inside it that doesn't need a screen or a keyboard, but will simply sit in a small corner of a shelf and be networked to others (either of a similar kind, or standard PC/laptop). And it should stay cool, preferably.
Basically, somthing on the lines of "laptop with no screen or keyboard" gives the idea of what I have in mind.
(Probably would need to be connectable to extrenal monitor and keyboard for initial installation purposes, but the intention is that this shold be a transitory situation. Must be linux-capable.)
The idea here is that they would be "server" boxes (1 or 2 or even 3 of them), to which user access would be via a networked laptop or similar (e.g. the outcome of query #1).
All coments and suggestions gratefully welcomed!
Best wishes to all, Ted.
[**1] No, I'm not setting up as a Traffic Warden/Parking Attendant/ Tesco Stocktaker.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 25-May-05 Time: 10:51:21 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 11:05:22AM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
- "Mini-laptop"
[snip requirements]
You're facing the same dilemma as anyone who want's a pocketable computer and there is no universal solution yet. The possibilities as I see it are:- Handwriting recognition, makes for a very compact device but isn't usually very fast and needs some effort to get used to it.
Built in tiny keyboard like the Treo 650, a bit bulkier and you certainly can't 'touch type' on it.
On screen keyboard, used by some PDAs and tablet computers, not a very good solution I don't think.
The really small end of real laptops.
The Sharp Zaurus is of course the classic Linux PDA.
- Headless and handless (and legless -- just a tube up the bum)
[snip requirements again]
Anything specifically as you describe will be horribly expensive I suspect because it's so specialised. Use laptops is probably the most sensible approach.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:05:22 +0100 (BST), Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk said:
- "Mini-laptop"
The Sharp Zaurus SL-C3000 is quite desirable in this area. It has there own Linux brand on it with Qtopia as well as being the first PDA with an internal hard rive! It has a whopping 4GB. Its small and clamshell-like (reverseable as well) with a keyboard suitable for thumb typing (and maybe normal as well, I've never tried).
The only snag is they're only available in Japan. Several companies will important and translate one for you for around £500-£600. See http://www.shirtpocket.co.uk
- Headless and handless (and legless -- just a tube up the bum)
Mini ITX? http://www.uklinux.net/linuxpcs/.
Or maybe even the Mac Mini?
Cheers, Richard
On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 11:34:02AM +0100, Richard Lewis wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:05:22 +0100 (BST), Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk said:
- "Mini-laptop"
The Sharp Zaurus SL-C3000 is quite desirable in this area. It has there own Linux brand on it with Qtopia as well as being the first PDA with an internal hard rive! It has a whopping 4GB. Its small and clamshell-like (reverseable as well) with a keyboard suitable for thumb typing (and maybe normal as well, I've never tried).
Ted, I think you were at one of the meetings where I brought my Zaurus along? I think it's probably too small for prolonged data entry, though it's very nice as a small laptop (especially now OpenZaurus is running on it).
The only snag is they're only available in Japan. Several companies will important and translate one for you for around £500-£600. See http://www.shirtpocket.co.uk
I nearly bought from Shirt Pocket, but am glad I didn't as I've heard some horror stories about them since; I got a Japanese importer to send me my Z, which worked out cheaper but meant I had to do the English conversion myself and sort out my own PSU.
J.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:39:56 +0100, "Jonathan McDowell" noodles@earth.li said:
On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 11:34:02AM +0100, Richard Lewis wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:05:22 +0100 (BST), Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk said:
- "Mini-laptop"
The Sharp Zaurus SL-C3000 is quite desirable in this area.
Ted, I think you were at one of the meetings where I brought my Zaurus along?
The only snag is they're only available in Japan.
I nearly bought from Shirt Pocket, but am glad I didn't as I've heard some horror stories about them since; I got a Japanese importer to send me my Z, which worked out cheaper but meant I had to do the English conversion myself and sort out my own PSU.
Hey, that sounds interesting! I wonder if you could tell us any more about it? Did you use OpenZaurus to translate it? Or is there a way of translating the shipped operating system? And whats OpenZaurus like?
Richard
On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 11:45:13AM +0100, Richard Lewis wrote:
On Wed, 25 May 2005 11:39:56 +0100, "Jonathan McDowell" noodles@earth.li said:
I nearly bought from Shirt Pocket, but am glad I didn't as I've heard some horror stories about them since; I got a Japanese importer to send me my Z, which worked out cheaper but meant I had to do the English conversion myself and sort out my own PSU.
Hey, that sounds interesting! I wonder if you could tell us any more about it? Did you use OpenZaurus to translate it? Or is there a way of translating the shipped operating system? And whats OpenZaurus like?
OpenZaurus didn't exist for it at the time I bought it; I ended up doing some of the porting work required to actually get it working (and got my name up in lights at http://www.openzaurus.org/ :). I've been quite impressed with it. I'm running the OPIE based version (so qt on the framebuffer) because it seems to have better PDA functionality, and I do actually want to use my Zaurus for calendar/contacts etc as well as ssh, web and email. There are loads of packages available and I've been really impressed with the whole OpenEmbedded setup (which OpenZaurus is based off) - it's quite neat the way it'll build the whole cross compiling toolchain for you and then sort out a bunch of packages and a root file system image.
I used the instructions from http://www.trisoft.de/ for converting the Z to English originally; they have a helpful PDF with screenshots and things so not understanding Japanese at all wasn't a problem. The Sharp ROM is ok for the PDA stuff, but I'm much happier now I have OZ working.
Current project with it all is getting calendar syncing working; I've tied a couple of WebDAV calendars together with the Z now, so I can sync between Mozilla and it. Now all I need to do is add my phone into the mix. :)
J.
Richard Lewis writes:
The Sharp Zaurus SL-C3000 is quite desirable in this area. It has there own Linux brand on it with Qtopia as well as being the first PDA with an internal hard rive! It has a whopping 4GB. Its small and clamshell-like (reverseable as well) with a keyboard suitable for thumb typing (and maybe normal as well, I've never tried).
I have a Z (the C760) and a colleague has the C3000. (Mine's a Japanese import, my colleague's via a German importer.) The underlying Linux is fine but, unless you subvert the machine with the Debian ARM distro, there's a dearth of application software. And it doesn't run X. For entering data, if you're willing to use <shudder> vi, it'll work off the shelf. The keyboard takes a little getting used: just don't expect to type a book on it!
I *wish* Psion had made it possible to put Linux on their 7 Pro. That's be a lovely machine.
For mainstream mini-laptops, the main choice is the dinky JVC machine (even seen one in PC World), though Toshiba is selling a new Libretto (the 1000, I think) in the States.
Mini ITX? http://www.uklinux.net/linuxpcs/. Or maybe even the Mac Mini?
Both these would be fine. We use mini-ITX boards in our wearables and they're robust, though you have to box them yourself. (There are some imaginative boxes around the 'net. :-) And I like Macs: OSX is a good Unix, though there are issues with X on Tiger that haven't yet been sorted out.
HTH.
..Adrian
On Wed, 25 May 2005 12:18:22 +0100 "Adrian F. Clark" alien@essex.ac.uk wrote:
I *wish* Psion had made it possible to put Linux on their 7 Pro. That's be a lovely machine.
http://linux-7110.sourceforge.net/
Openpsion (formerly psilinux) is a project to port the Linux operating system to a group of palmtops produced by Psion. At present, working linux systems can be installed on any of the Series 5, Series 5MX, Series 5MX-Pro, Revo (Revo+, Mako) machines (NOT the Series 3). Linux on the Series 7/netBook is more or less working, although kernel support for the hardware is not quite complete.
Series 7/netBook Summary
We have X-windows, rudimentary compactflash, PCMCIA, and touchscreen support working on the netBook! Most wireless network cards and compactflash work "out of the box". A program called "bookboot" can be used to create "OS.img" files for directly booting to linux from compactflash (avoiding EPOC altogether). With the large-sized compactflash cards becoming affordable (1 GB or more), complete Debian systems can be installed on the netBook, including a development environment, e.g., the linux kernel can be compiled on the netBook.
So you can have your wish
Regards
Owen S
On 25-May-05 Richard Lewis wrote:
[...] 2. Headless and handless (and legless -- just a tube up the bum)
Mini ITX? http://www.uklinux.net/linuxpcs/.
Or maybe even the Mac Mini?
Thanks, I'll check these out. I admit to being intrigued by the Mac Mini -- even saw someone enquiring about them at Robert Sayle in Cambridge. They're not that cheap, though they're certianly OS-compliant! I couldn;t make out whether they can take an ordinary external keyboard and monitor, or whether you have to additionally purchase Mac monitors and keyboards, or adaptors.
Thanks, and best wishes, Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@nessie.mcc.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 25-May-05 Time: 12:09:48 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 12:18:06PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
On 25-May-05 Jonathan McDowell wrote:
The only snag is they're only available in Japan. Several companies will import and and translate one for you for around £500-£600. See http://www.shirtpocket.co.uk
I nearly bought from Shirt Pocket, but am glad I didn't as I've heard some horror stories about them since; I got a Japanese importer to send me my Z, which worked out cheaper but meant I had to do the English conversion myself and sort out my own PSU.
That's interesting information! At under £500 (how much, roughly, might one expect to pay by this route?) it becomes very reasonable. And it certainly seems to be a very attractive item.
It worked out as around £450 including the PSU and import duty. I used http://www.pricejapan.com/ but I can't really recommend them; although delivery was swift (I ordered late Monday night and had the Z by Thursday afternoon) they never actually sent me any order confirmation or tracking details nor did they reply to my email asking about this, so I wouldn't be confident of being able to resolve any issues that did occur.
I wasn't fully aware of the 4GB hard drive aspect, which makes it very interesting indeed.
What's the gen on netowrking/connectivity?
There's no networking built in, which is the major downside IMO.
It has built in IrDA, a CF slot (which I tend to use for a wireless card) and USB OTG; which means it can do host or slave, but I haven't found a sufficiently cheap cable that'll make it do host yet.
Whom might one contact for importing?
I remember reading somewhere that you have to watch out for what OS is installed on it (versions differ, apparently).
Finally, in the event that I went down this route, would you be willing to advise on the conversions you mention?
http://www.trisoft.de/en_c3000howto.htm
is the page I used IIRC.
J.
On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 11:05:22AM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
- "Mini-laptop"
Probably the "PDA" type of thing is too tiny for my spatulate fingertips, but that's the sort of size (or somewhat bigger) which I have in mind.
You could get a 2nd hand Psion series 5mx (but they go for large amounts of dosh, I sold mine on ebay a year ago for more than i purchased it for in the first place) ok, it is only a b/w screen, but the keyboard is usuable and it uses AA batteries, I think you are limited to serial connectivity only though. Or (you didn't mention a budget) you could get a Psion netbook pro, which have a colour screen and are much larger and have built in USB, they also have pcmcia slots so I guess that you could connect a wireless lan card or ethernet.
- Headless and handless (and legless -- just a tube up the bum)
Here I'm interested in a simple small silent box with a full-scale computer inside it that doesn't need a screen or a keyboard, but will simply sit in a small corner of a shelf and be networked to others (either of a similar kind, or standard PC/laptop). And it should stay cool, preferably.
I have a mini-itx machine that is silent apart from the hard-disk (i could always get an enclosure to quieten it down or a laptop hard-disk) the only real problem with it is that it is quite slow, although this is the original model that is "only" 533Mhz but it worked very well as a small server for some time, until it just couldn't cope with running spamassassin anymore, the faster models (some have fans) would probably be much better, it has a small footprint which is good and thinking of which you could also consider the Mac-mini which is linuxable...
Adam
Adam Bower writes:
You could get a 2nd hand Psion series 5mx (but they go for large amounts of dosh, I sold mine on ebay a year ago for more than i purchased it for in the first place) ok, it is only a b/w screen, but the keyboard is usuable and it uses AA batteries, I think you are limited to serial connectivity only though. Or (you didn't mention a budget) you could get a Psion netbook pro, which have a colour screen and are much larger and have built in USB, they also have pcmcia slots so I guess that you could connect a wireless lan card or ethernet.
I swap out my 5mx's CF card into a carrier and bung it into my notebook. Been doing this for years...
..Adrian
On Wednesday 25 May 2005 11:30, Adrian F. Clark wrote:
Adam Bower writes:
You could get a 2nd hand Psion series 5mx (but they go for large amounts of dosh, I sold mine on ebay a year ago for more than i purchased it for in the first place) ok, it is only a b/w screen, but the keyboard is usuable and it uses AA batteries, I think you are limited to serial connectivity only though. Or (you didn't mention a budget) you could get a Psion netbook pro, which have a colour screen and are much larger and have built in USB, they also have pcmcia slots so I guess that you could connect a wireless lan card or ethernet.
I swap out my 5mx's CF card into a carrier and bung it into my notebook. Been doing this for years...
There's an infra-red port too (ok, I suppose that counts as serial connectivity, but then so does USB).
For Linux on Psion see http://linux-7110.sourceforge.net/
The battery life's not great, especially if you use the backlight a lot, which you'll probably need to if you want to read console screens etc.
- "Mini-laptop"
Try and find a second hand Fujitsu Lifebook P1120, they are not so common in this country as they were never officially sold here, but they do appear on Ebay from time to time. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=18792&item=...
It's a tiny sub notebook running a Crusoe 800 Mhz processor. Comes with wireless,30GB HDD, 256MB ram and a nifty 8.9" touchscreen (the touch bit of which is only just possible to get working in Linux, not that's much of a problem as it has a nipple too)
Everything bar the touchscreen pretty much works out of the box with SuSE 9.2 (although I haven't even bothered configuring the modem yet)
I have seen them going for stupidly cheap money on Ebay before (considering that they were VERY expensive new)
Personally I wouldn't be without mine, at home it sits on the Wireless Lan and acts as a X terminal to the machine upstairs, out and about it has (just) enough horsepower to do most things you would want. The keyboard is a nice balance between small and useable. The screen is top notch, It's a tiny widescreen running at 1020x600 (from memory it's in my glovebox at the moment)
Battery life is pretty good, I get an average of about 3 hours out of the standard one, that's including a couple of boots and using the wireless. There is a double capacity battery that should give you 6 hours plus.
Other plus points are that it is really well built and as I say pretty much everything works in Linux (even the notorious ACPI suspend and CPU throttling)
The only minus points I can think of are that the memory is non upgradeable and fixed at 256MB (although I am working on a mod for this) and as I say they are pretty hard to come by (spares are even harder, mine could really use a new keyboard after a nasty liquid spill....that's how I came by mine it was on a clients scrap pile)
Sorry to evangelise about this so much, but it is my most treasured bit of IT kit.
- Headless and handless (and legless -- just a tube up the bum)
As others have suggested Mac Mini or MiniITX based machines are probably the best way to go. If you are considering the MiniITX route then I recommend www.linitx.com for being very helpfull on several occasions and local (to me at least). Personally I would lean towards the MiniITX route simply because it is a bit more flexible (for a start the hard drive in the Mac Mini is slloooowww compared to the nice big and quiet 3.5" drive you could build into a MiniITX machine)
They are not the fastest machines in the world, (although I hear that the recently introduced 1.3Mhz model is pretty good) but they have every interface you are ever likely to need, can be made very small and quiet...and are just fun little things to play with.
Don't get me wrong...I love the Mac Mini, in fact I am going to buy one as soon as I can afford it. But for a server type application I think the MiniITX route may perform better.
On Wed, May 25, 2005 at 09:29:09PM +0100, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
Don't get me wrong...I love the Mac Mini, in fact I am going to buy one as soon as I can afford it. But for a server type application I think the MiniITX route may perform better.
Hmmn, interesting tradeoff, the mini-itx kit will have a slower cpu compared to the Mac but will allow you cheaper upgrades to the disk etc. and has a working pci slot (2 slots if you get the right case with a riser card)+ an extra ethernet port (again motherboard dependant) Of course you could just get an external firewire drive caddy for the Mac-mini with a stupidly fast disk in it which would improve things drastically (probably, seeing how I have never seen or used a Mac-mini, it would be an interesting comparison though).
Adam
On Wednesday 25 May 2005 10:14 pm, Adam Bower wrote:
Hmmn, interesting tradeoff, the mini-itx kit will have a slower cpu compared to the Mac but will allow you cheaper upgrades to the disk etc. and has a working pci slot (2 slots if you get the right case with a riser card)+ an extra ethernet port (again motherboard dependant) Of course you could just get an external firewire drive caddy for the Mac-mini with a stupidly fast disk in it which would improve things drastically (probably, seeing how I have never seen or used a Mac-mini, it would be an interesting comparison though).
Yes that's an interesting point Adam,
I have never seen a unbiased benchmark comparasion of Linux running on x86 vs PPC. The PPC is supposed to compare clock for clock against X86 quite favourably isn't it ?
The Mac also has a faster memory interface in it's favour (unless you count the new Via 1.3Ghz offering) So you should see (hard disk aside) better performance from the Mac, assuming the hardware is all supported by Linux in an optimum way. I know last time I checked a few things didn't work on the Mini.
That said, Mac Mini + Firewire enclosure + Hard Drive is probably going to work out more expensive than a miniITX built up with the necessary components to make it a server. Also with miniITX you can play the "let's put it in a stupid case" game....my last one was built inside a 70's table top battery radio made appropriately by an old British company called "Hacker"...I left the badges on :-)
From the top of my head, I would think it was possible to build a 1.2Ghz miniITX system with 512MB RAM, a DVD drive and 120GB HDD for circa £250 +VAT ...that's assuming a cheap case and tollerating a tiny bit of running noise.
-
Adam Bower -
Adrian F. Clark -
Chris Green -
Joe Button -
Jonathan McDowell -
Owen Synge -
Richard Lewis -
Ted.Harding＠nessie.mcc.ac.uk -
Wayne Stallwood