Dear group,
in a cardboard box, we've found
* two PCI ethernet cards (different models, a large one with a 3Com chip on it and three different sockets, and a much smaller one with just an RJ45 socket
* two 5.25 inch disk drives
If any of you is interested in these pieces, please send me an email. I'd like to get rid of them all at once.
It's pretty clear to me that these things won't have any value unless you happen to have some rather old computer system, e.g. out of historical interest or the like. This email is just an attempt to wrest some final use out of these things before they're scrapped.
Best regards, Jan
The message 20060115143700.GA11053@jtkpc.cmp.uea.ac.uk from "Jan T. Kim" jtk@cmp.uea.ac.uk contains these words:
Dear group,
in a cardboard box, we've found
* two PCI ethernet cards (different models, a large one with a 3Com chip on it and three different sockets,
Got three of these - still boxed...
and a much smaller one with just an RJ45 socket
I'd be interested in that one - I count that one as modern.
* two 5.25 inch disk drives
Ah. Those sound handy too. Do you happen to know whether they will handle HD discs? (I have one, so if someone else wants either or both, I shan't want to fight over them.)
If any of you is interested in these pieces, please send me an email. I'd like to get rid of them all at once.
For what values of 'at once'?
It's pretty clear to me that these things won't have any value unless you happen to have some rather old computer system, e.g. out of historical interest or the like.
Why? 5.25" HD floppies hold nearly as much as 3.5" ones, and you can pick them up at computer fairs for pennies.
This email is just an attempt to wrest some final use out of these things before they're scrapped.
I thoroughly approve of that sentiment. I'm still using kitchen utensils which were wedding presents for my parents - before the war.
The message 313030303230303843CA69F399@zetnet.co.uk from Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk contains these words:
* two PCI ethernet cards (different models, a large one with a 3Com chip on it and three different sockets,
Got three of these - still boxed...
and a much smaller one with just an RJ45 socket
I'd be interested in that one - I count that one as modern.
Sorry - intended for direct emu...
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 03:27:47PM -0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
Why? 5.25" HD floppies hold nearly as much as 3.5" ones, and you can pick them up at computer fairs for pennies.
ewwww, havn't floppy disks been banned yet?! I *hate* the wretched things. Given that blank CDs cost pennies, and USB pen drives are so cheap I can't fathom a reason why anyone would want to torture themselves by using floppy disks. (or have I been trolled?)
Thanks Adam
On 1/15/06, Adam Bower adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
ewwww, havn't floppy disks been banned yet?! I *hate* the wretched things. Given that blank CDs cost pennies, and USB pen drives are so
I remember when the original Apple iMacs came out without a floppy. Caused quiet a stir at the time. Now, Apple are dropping modems from their new Intel-based machines. It's now an extra if you are still stuck on dialup :(
--
Ashley
The message a94f2b6b0601150937o1326d590uea70c52c6333510d@mail.gmail.com from "Ashley T. Howes, Ph.D." lists@ashleyhowes.com contains these words:
I remember when the original Apple iMacs came out without a floppy. Caused quiet a stir at the time. Now, Apple are dropping modems from their new Intel-based machines. It's now an extra if you are still stuck on dialup :(
I prefer an external modem anyway, but for some reason the one I have won't work in Win 2000 on this box. Does with Linux though.
The message 20060115173147.GK18761@thebowery.co.uk from Adam Bower adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
ewwww, havn't floppy disks been banned yet?! I *hate* the wretched things. Given that blank CDs cost pennies, and USB pen drives are so cheap I can't fathom a reason why anyone would want to torture themselves by using floppy disks. (or have I been trolled?)
You've been misinformatted.
Floopies are still useful (IMO) as failsafe boot devices, running microLinuces (microLunacies?) and loading acquired old progs and data to newer machines.
I have *LOADS* of old DOS and CP/M programs and data on 3", 3.5 " and 5.25" floppies, and without a drive, these are inaccessible innit.
On 1/15/06, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
Floopies are still useful (IMO) as failsafe boot devices, running microLinuces (microLunacies?) and loading acquired old progs and data to newer machines.
Yeah, I had to resort to floppies recently to install Debian on a Pentium 3. The CD-ROM drive just refused to boot, even though there was a BIOS setting for it. It reminded me of my slackware days :)
--
Ashley
The message a94f2b6b0601151213m7927d5fbt95272e46edf89f2b@mail.gmail.com from "Ashley T. Howes, Ph.D." lists@ashleyhowes.com contains these words:
Yeah, I had to resort to floppies recently to install Debian on a Pentium 3. The CD-ROM drive just refused to boot, even though there was a BIOS setting for it. It reminded me of my slackware days :)
Was it a SCSI drive, mayhap?
On 1/15/06, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
The message a94f2b6b0601151213m7927d5fbt95272e46edf89f2b@mail.gmail.com from "Ashley T. Howes, Ph.D." lists@ashleyhowes.com contains these words:
Yeah, I had to resort to floppies recently to install Debian on a Pentium 3. The CD-ROM drive just refused to boot, even though there was a BIOS setting for it. It reminded me of my slackware days :)
Was it a SCSI drive, mayhap?
No, IDE. It just refused to boot on that PC. The same drive in any other PC I have is fine. It was a while ago now, so is no longer a problem.
--
Ashley
The message a94f2b6b0601160055ueafcd9fqe39ec9c9e850ec4@mail.gmail.com from "Ashley T. Howes, Ph.D." lists@ashleyhowes.com contains these words:
On 1/15/06, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
The message a94f2b6b0601151213m7927d5fbt95272e46edf89f2b@mail.gmail.com from "Ashley T. Howes, Ph.D." lists@ashleyhowes.com contains these words:
Yeah, I had to resort to floppies recently to install Debian on a Pentium 3. The CD-ROM drive just refused to boot, even though there was a BIOS setting for it. It reminded me of my slackware days :)
Was it a SCSI drive, mayhap?
No, IDE. It just refused to boot on that PC. The same drive in any other PC I have is fine. It was a while ago now, so is no longer a problem.
I had a similar promble trying to install Win 2000 on a box a while ago. Debian (Woody) went on without demur, and ran perfectly (AFAICT).
Installing Win 2000 was a completely different matter, however. The process started OK and continued until it needed to install SP1. Then it wouldn't find the CD drive, even though the SCSI drivers had been installed, and by doing a 'Browse' I could show it *EXACTLY* where i386 was. Could it see it? Could it f-f-f- er - flip.
More than 20 attempts.
Installed seamlessly on a nasty Time 233 MMX box, but not on a (comparatively) fast PIII-450 on a decent board with other stuff of decent quality. Oh no.
But then the Time box didn't have any SCSI in it innit.
Now the new (FSVO new) box, an AMD-950 accepts everything (except Knoppix 3·1, which doesn't know about fairly recent ATI graphics cards, though Knoppix 4·02 has been told): Win 2000 Pro, Sarge, Ubantu runs, and I have a copy of Mempis ready to play with. It has an IDE CD/DVD-RW though, not just a CD-ROM drive. (but it still had four SCSI hard drives.)
On Sun, 2006-01-15 at 19:13 +0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
I have *LOADS* of old DOS and CP/M programs and data on 3", 3.5 " and 5.25" floppies, and without a drive, these are inaccessible innit.
I've still a load of 8" floppies with CP/M stuff on ! <Cue Not the Nine o'clock news sketch about 78 rpm records>
Peter
The message 1137357894.6212.13.camel@HP.HouseLan from Peter Onion Peter.Onion@btinternet.com contains these words:
I've still a load of 8" floppies with CP/M stuff on ! <Cue Not the Nine o'clock news sketch about 78 rpm records>
That I can't claim, though I do play 78s from time to time.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 07:13:07PM -0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
You've been misinformatted.
Floopies are still useful (IMO) as failsafe boot devices, running microLinuces (microLunacies?) and loading acquired old progs and data to newer machines.
I disagree, I just had to deal with a floppy disk this evening. The grinding noises from the disk... it sounded like there was a hamster grater in my computer, not what should be a bit of "high tech"! after about 10 goes we got the required data off (at a speed that probably seemed really fast in 1978) and managed to print it (which co-incidently took about 10 goes, read more below on this).
IME trying to boot off a floppy disk on a stubborn machine that won't boot via the "normal" methods (CD-Rom, Network, USB) usually results in me taking the hard-disk out and booting the machine from elsewhere as the floppy disk i'm trying to use will be corrupt, or the drive will be faulty, or the drive in the machine i'm making the boot disk in is faulty or the image of the boot disk you are trying to use is corrupt on the ftp site/cdrom/local mirror because nobody checked it worked before releasing the software (usually a wacky combination of all of the above). In which case I now don't bother with floppy disks at all, except as the real last resort (even after trying to input a linux kernel via a toggle switch on the front panel).
Pretty much every x86 machine I have *ever* used has been able to boot from CD-Rom, I use this feature and take it pretty much for granted. I find it a sign of how archaic the x86 PC can be that it still has floppy disk drives even now!
If I was king for a day I'd burn every floppy disk and floppy disk drive in the world (after taking off the important data first, obviously) as they are my most hated computer peripheral, closely followed in second place by printers (oh, so you can either not pick up *any* paper or 17 sheets at a time) and in third place is the motherboards in those cheap computers from places like PC World and Comet which only have 2 PCI slots (usually only 1 usable by the time you have stuck an ethernet card in the machine) and no AGP slot.
</rant> ;)
By now, I think you get the picture that I don't like floppy disks :)
Thanks Adam
The message 20060115205403.GL18761@thebowery.co.uk from Adam Bower adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
You've been misinformatted.
Floopies are still useful (IMO) as failsafe boot devices, running microLinuces (microLunacies?) and loading acquired old progs and data to newer machines.
I disagree, I just had to deal with a floppy disk this evening. The grinding noises from the disk... it sounded like there was a hamster grater in my computer, not what should be a bit of "high tech"! after about 10 goes we got the required data off (at a speed that probably seemed really fast in 1978) and managed to print it (which co-incidently took about 10 goes, read more below on this).
IME trying to boot off a floppy disk on a stubborn machine that won't boot via the "normal" methods (CD-Rom, Network, USB) usually results in me taking the hard-disk out and booting the machine from elsewhere as the floppy disk i'm trying to use will be corrupt, or the drive will be faulty, or the drive in the machine i'm making the boot disk in is faulty or the image of the boot disk you are trying to use is corrupt on the ftp site/cdrom/local mirror because nobody checked it worked before releasing the software (usually a wacky combination of all of the above). In which case I now don't bother with floppy disks at all, except as the real last resort (even after trying to input a linux kernel via a toggle switch on the front panel).
Ah, I'm not talking about booting from a recalcitrant box, but an infected one. True, I've never had to do it on one of my boxen, but I've rescued a couple of fiends in the past by booting in DOS and running F-Prot from a floppy.
However, I understand that it's got too big for that now.
Pretty much every x86 machine I have *ever* used has been able to boot from CD-Rom, I use this feature and take it pretty much for granted. I find it a sign of how archaic the x86 PC can be that it still has floppy disk drives even now!
I'm quite happy to have a failsafe drive.
If I was king for a day I'd burn every floppy disk and floppy disk drive in the world (after taking off the important data first, obviously) as they are my most hated computer peripheral, closely followed in second place by printers (oh, so you can either not pick up *any* paper or 17 sheets at a time) and in third place is the motherboards in those cheap computers from places like PC World and Comet which only have 2 PCI slots (usually only 1 usable by the time you have stuck an ethernet card in the machine) and no AGP slot.
Ah - got one of those. Make good routers though. (FSVO good)
</rant> ;)
Good rant, some of it.
I still want three flavours of floppy drive for transfer of any old programs I find at boot sales or pooter/ham fairs and want to try.
By now, I think you get the picture that I don't like floppy disks :)
I think they're cuddly and items of great beauty and elegance...
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 09:22:53PM -0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
Ah, I'm not talking about booting from a recalcitrant box, but an infected one. True, I've never had to do it on one of my boxen, but I've rescued a couple of fiends in the past by booting in DOS and running F-Prot from a floppy.
However, I understand that it's got too big for that now.
Ubuntu/Live CD of choice and clamav works nicely for this (and seems better than the expensive Windows software designed specifically for this task).
I still want three flavours of floppy drive for transfer of any old programs I find at boot sales or pooter/ham fairs and want to try.
You can get at least one drive that can cope with both 5.25" and 3.5" disks (obviously not at the same time) it just accepts both.
Adam
The message 20060115220135.GM18761@thebowery.co.uk from Adam Bower adam@thebowery.co.uk contains these words:
You can get at least one drive that can cope with both 5.25" and 3.5" disks (obviously not at the same time) it just accepts both.
<advert>
Want-want-want!
</advert>
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 08:54:03PM +0000, Adam Bower wrote:
Pretty much every x86 machine I have *ever* used has been able to boot from CD-Rom, I use this feature and take it pretty much for granted. I find it a sign of how archaic the x86 PC can be that it still has floppy disk drives even now!
You've not been around very long have you! :-)
The first PCs I used *only* had floppy drives, no hard disk, let alone a CD. I've not used 8" floppy drives on PCs but I certainly used them for many years on a Unix box I developed on and some micro based systems.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 08:54:03PM +0000, Adam Bower wrote:
Pretty much every x86 machine I have *ever* used has been able to
boot
from CD-Rom, I use this feature and take it pretty much for
granted.
I find it a sign of how archaic the x86 PC can be that it still has floppy disk drives even now!
More and more new x86 machines are now coming without the dreaded floppy drive installed...and believe it or not when we sell those we do get a few complaints....it's very rare to see floppy drives on laptops as well (I don't mind them so much on PC's as it adds little to cost and nothing to the size...but it is a waste of valuable space/weight on a laptop)
I was going to say that at least part of the problems with floppies (tiny capacity aside) is that modern drives are media seem to be rubbish. I never remember this many problems with my first (floppy only) x68 or my Amiga or even the Opus Discovery 3 1/2 " on my Spectrum...but most of those drives cost £100 or more where as now they are £3-£5.
Now it seems as if there is roughly a 50% success rate when you pick up a random floppy. About the only time I use them now is for Ghost network boot disks to talk to our Ghostcast server...even with new out of the box disks I tend to get a few failures.
Also have you noticed that Windows still is pretty much incapable of doing much else when it is reading/writing to a floppy.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2006 at 09:25:38AM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
I was going to say that at least part of the problems with floppies (tiny capacity aside) is that modern drives are media seem to be rubbish. I never remember this many problems with my first (floppy only) x68 or my Amiga or even the Opus Discovery 3 1/2 " on my Spectrum...but most of those drives cost £100 or more where as now they are £3-£5.
Yup, I had dozens of disks for my Amiga (when I got the 4000 it had an HD drive) when I sold my 2 old Amigas on ebay last year I tested them and the disks that had been put in the loft for the past 10 years to make sure they were working. From my test of about 10 games (nostalgia!) all of them played ok as did other disks pulled at random. They don't build them like they used to.
Also have you noticed that Windows still is pretty much incapable of doing much else when it is reading/writing to a floppy.
Yup, *GRIND* *CHUNTTER* *CLICK* *CLICK* *CLICK* *GRIIIIIIIND* although to be fair, Linux wouldn't even mount the floppies I had yesterday, god knows why. I seem to recall that Linux also uses an inordinate amount of cpu power to pull data off a floppy disk is this a limitation of the x86 architecture? Back in the day I remember my Amiga pulling data off a disk while doing stuff at the same time.
I seriously think if you still have important data on floppy you want to get it off the disks now and look at emulators/archiving a different way. Mainly due to the amount of desk/shelf space you will save! When I look at my firesafe which has an interior the size of a shoebox which currently has 3 or 4 Mini DV tapes (12 gigs each) and about 30 DVD-R I have (potentially) about 177 Gigabytes of data in there, if it contained only floppy disks then I'd be struggling :)
Thanks Adam
The message 1137403539.11029.47.camel@localhost.localdomain from Wayne Stallwood ALUGlist@digimatic.plus.com contains these words:
More and more new x86 machines are now coming without the dreaded floppy drive installed...and believe it or not when we sell those we do get a few complaints....it's very rare to see floppy drives on laptops as well (I don't mind them so much on PC's as it adds little to cost and nothing to the size...but it is a waste of valuable space/weight on a laptop)
I'd be completely lost without the floppy drive on my laptop - runs DOS 6.22 and Win 3.11. Well, with a 500 MB HD, there aren't a lot of options, especially as it doesn't have an internal CD-ROM.
I might install a slimline Linux on it sometime though - I have an interesting old one of a complementary age which alleges it will run in a DOS partition.
On Mon, Jan 16, 2006 at 08:45:47AM +0000, Chris Green wrote:
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 08:54:03PM +0000, Adam Bower wrote:
Pretty much every x86 machine I have *ever* used has been able to boot from CD-Rom, I use this feature and take it pretty much for granted. I find it a sign of how archaic the x86 PC can be that it still has floppy disk drives even now!
You've not been around very long have you! :-)
Not using x86 based crap, no ;)
The first PCs I used *only* had floppy drives, no hard disk, let alone a CD. I've not used 8" floppy drives on PCs but I certainly used them for many years on a Unix box I developed on and some micro based systems.
You should have destroyed them before they had a chance to multiply and take over the world ;)
Thanks Adam
On Mon, 2006-01-16 at 08:45 +0000, Chris Green wrote:
You've not been around very long have you! :-)
The first PCs I used *only* had floppy drives, no hard disk, let alone a CD. I've not used 8" floppy drives on PCs but I certainly used them for many years on a Unix box I developed on and some micro based systems.
AFAIK The X86 platform was never used with 8"...I do seem to remember the early IBM's having a tape interface though (tape as in cassette tape not data tape)
I just missed using 8" disks, my first PC was originally 5 1/4" as were the CP/M machines at school. My spectrum was using a new fangled 3 1/2" low density drive that friends said would never take off because the media was too expensive. Other Spectrums has a nasty proprietary 3" disk format...but I didn't speak to those people.
The first exposure I had to 8" was when I was given an Intelec MDS, This annoyed my parents somewhat as it took up the whole spare room...made the whole house shake when it was turned on, and actually did very little that was useful (it was more of a development environment than anything else, ICE modules and Prom burners etc) beyond getting the thing to bootstrap I didn't know how to use it. That also had one of the original Winchester style drives and a proper Teletype, although I never figured how to get the teletype working so I used another console that came with it.
In the end I got bored of it and took it apart...But the silliest thing I did was throw away the lovely bound set of hand drawn schematic manuals, complete with sticky label "patches" to the circuits.
Could kick myself now.
On 1/15/06, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
I have *LOADS* of old DOS and CP/M programs and data on 3", 3.5 " and 5.25" floppies, and without a drive, these are inaccessible innit.
When did you last _want_ to access your old DOS and CP/M stuff? If it is so important, like the BBC Model B based laser disc 900th anniversary Doomsday Book, maybe now is the time to migrate and run an emulator.
Tim.
The message 54874100601160127n4b7c0227ye7ed5cc966597e18@mail.gmail.com from Tim Green timothy.j.green@gmail.com contains these words:
On 1/15/06, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
I have *LOADS* of old DOS and CP/M programs and data on 3", 3.5 " and 5.25" floppies, and without a drive, these are inaccessible innit.
When did you last _want_ to access your old DOS and CP/M stuff?
For the last couple of years, and I would add, *NOW!*
If it is so important, like the BBC Model B based laser disc 900th anniversary Doomsday Book, maybe now is the time to migrate and run an emulator.
I have an emulator, but much of the stuff I want to transcribe is on CF2 diskettes, and what is on 3œ" floppies can't be read on this box.
I have about 300,000 words of a novel and half a book of short stories on CF2, and I want to get on with them...
** Tim Green timothy.j.green@gmail.com [2006-01-16 09:29]:
On 1/15/06, Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
I have *LOADS* of old DOS and CP/M programs and data on 3", 3.5 " and 5.25" floppies, and without a drive, these are inaccessible innit.
When did you last _want_ to access your old DOS and CP/M stuff? If it is so important, like the BBC Model B based laser disc 900th anniversary Doomsday Book, maybe now is the time to migrate and run an emulator.
** end quote [Tim Green]
A very bad example if you don't mind me saying so ;) I have one of these Doomsday systems (although as yet un-tested since I rescued it) and they are very tied to the capabilities of the BBC Micro hardware. There is even a university (I forget which one) working on getting it running on a PC, but it is a major piece of work, and doesn't simply run in an emulator. This is largely due to the mix of data and video stored on the discs where the BBC could handle and modern PCs cannot (not sure whether they could with direct access to the LVD player itself or not).
It's a good enough point though, but I still want to archive my old floppies onto CD or DVD, and I'll not be getting rid of the original disks. But then I have a selection of old machines that I am keeping (not x86 ones - too boring) - which reminds me, I probably ought to get my hands on a few more 3" drives to keep my old Amstrad and Sinclair machines going if I need the parts :)
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 03:27:47PM -0000, Anthony Anson wrote:
The message 20060115143700.GA11053@jtkpc.cmp.uea.ac.uk from "Jan T. Kim" jtk@cmp.uea.ac.uk contains these words:
Dear group,
in a cardboard box, we've found
* two PCI ethernet cards (different models, a large one with a 3Com chip on it and three different sockets,Got three of these - still boxed...
and a much smaller one with just an RJ45 socket
I'd be interested in that one - I count that one as modern.
* two 5.25 inch disk drivesAh. Those sound handy too. Do you happen to know whether they will handle HD discs?
I'm not sure. It's largely unclear to me where all this stuff comes from -- I thought that I had given all such stuff away to a colleague before leaving Germany in 2004.
(I have one, so if someone else wants either or both, I shan't want to fight over them.)
If any of you is interested in these pieces, please send me an email. I'd like to get rid of them all at once.
For what values of 'at once'?
The value is "all items at the same time" -- what I meant is that I'd prefer to give all this stuff to someone interested at once, rather than giving different item to different people at different times and occasions, which would give me plenty of opportunity to get things wrong...
It's pretty clear to me that these things won't have any value unless you happen to have some rather old computer system, e.g. out of historical interest or the like.
Why? 5.25" HD floppies hold nearly as much as 3.5" ones, and you can pick them up at computer fairs for pennies.
This email is just an attempt to wrest some final use out of these things before they're scrapped.
I thoroughly approve of that sentiment. I'm still using kitchen utensils which were wedding presents for my parents - before the war.
Hmm... I wonder how much longer we'll have to wait until computer equipment and the underlying standards will be this long-lived...
Best regards, Jan
The message 20060115211322.GB17665@jtkpc.cmp.uea.ac.uk from "Jan T. Kim" jtk@cmp.uea.ac.uk contains these words:
/snip/
This email is just an attempt to wrest some final use out of these things before they're scrapped.
I thoroughly approve of that sentiment. I'm still using kitchen utensils which were wedding presents for my parents - before the war.
Hmm... I wonder how much longer we'll have to wait until computer equipment and the underlying standards will be this long-lived...
Today's kitchen equipment isn't a patch on the quality it used to be.
While I can see that computer stuff is getting faster and faster in an almost exponential way, there must be some limit of usability for all this acceleration. Quantum computers aren't that far away, but will the home user really need such a tool?
On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:42:06 -0000 Anthony Anson tony.anson@zetnet.co.uk wrote:
Quantum computers aren't that far away, but will the home user really need such a tool?
Yes as anyone how has a quantum computer wins the hackers arms race.
just my 2p
owen
-
Adam Bower -
Anthony Anson -
Ashley T. Howes, Ph.D. -
Chris Green -
Jan T. Kim -
Owen Synge -
Paul Tansom -
Peter Onion -
Tim Green -
Wayne Stallwood