Long story, so apologies -- but the details matter.
A few days ago I was checking my bank account online. I noticed a Direct Debit for £7.99 made that day. Puzzled, I checked the full transaction details: it was to PC World. I checked back earlier -- another one, a month earlier.
Well, I had been to PC World in Cambridge a couple of months earlier. Objective: pick up a cheapish laptop to play with some Linux distros, then do a proper installation.
I noticed a quite nice Hewlett Packard T2390 on special offer at £329.97 (not too keen on the keyboard, but it's OK. The rest seems fine). While I was looking around, one of the shop-floor assistants latched on to me assiduously. I tried asking him something about printers, (built-in PostScript with auto-duplex capability) but he didn't know much. While I was at it I picked up an ethernet switch and a laptop carrier bag. Total bill £387.20 (added up in my head).
He then offered to help me carry the stuff (cardboard box with the laptop in, switch box, bag) to the checkout, which I didn't really need but since he offered ...
He then stood beside me at the checkout while I paid. Total payment £387.20 (as added up in my head). I got the receipt, along with what looked like some publicity leaflets, and went out to my car. I didn't get an offer of help for that bit.
I didn't check the details on the receipt at the time -- I felt that things had basically taken their expected course.
After checking my bank account, however, I did check the receipt in detail. At the top:
HEWLETPACK A961EM T2390 £329.97
and beneath that, in very small print:
Discount Manager Offer - Manager Discretion -£7.99
then:
PC PERFORMANCE £7.99
followed by the items for the network switch and the bag.
So I had been signed up for their "PC Performance" cover, including the first instalment of £7.99, without noticing (it had not changed the total price).
And I have no recollection of being asked at any time if I wanted this. If I had been, I would have said no -- because the first thing I intended to do was to wipe off Windows and put on Linux, which would probably have voided any warranty. (In any case, I never take up these "product cover & support" things).
I then phoned "PC Performance" (a PC World sideline), and was told that they would cancel the cover, and cease the D/D, but I could not get a refund because more than 2 weeks had passed. If I wanted to get the money back, I should contact my Bank to initiate an "Indemnity Claim".
So I phoned my Bank, and described the situation. "Oh, it looks as though they've been a bit cheeky", she said. We discussed Indemnity Claim, and it seemd a long shot (there had been two of them at the till, one the cashier, the other the shop-floor assistant), so I dropped the idea. But she said she would immediately close the D/D.
She rang back a few minutes later, to say that since the D/D had been cancelled on the same day a debit had been made, the debit of £7.99 for that day would be refunded. So that left me overall £7.99 out of pocket (break-even on the first one, due to "Manager's Discretion"). Not worth trying to take further, though I felt annoyed enough to want to!
Well, that's my PC World experience! Moral: look closely at the receipt! (Though by the time I could have done that, it would all have been set up already -- but at least I would have been within the 2-week period for getting any money back).
(And I didn't get the impression that it was the first time the Bank lady had heard such a story ... ).
Best wishes to all, Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@manchester.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 27-May-09 Time: 17:43:46 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
2009/5/27 Ted Harding Ted.Harding@manchester.ac.uk:
Long story, so apologies -- but the details matter.
A few days ago I was checking my bank account online. I noticed a Direct Debit for £7.99 made that day. Puzzled, I checked the full transaction details: it was to PC World. I checked back earlier -- another one, a month earlier.
Well, I had been to PC World in Cambridge a couple of months earlier. Objective: pick up a cheapish laptop to play with some Linux distros, then do a proper installation.
I noticed a quite nice Hewlett Packard T2390 on special offer at £329.97 (not too keen on the keyboard, but it's OK. The rest seems fine). While I was looking around, one of the shop-floor assistants latched on to me assiduously. I tried asking him something about printers, (built-in PostScript with auto-duplex capability) but he didn't know much. While I was at it I picked up an ethernet switch and a laptop carrier bag. Total bill £387.20 (added up in my head).
He then offered to help me carry the stuff (cardboard box with the laptop in, switch box, bag) to the checkout, which I didn't really need but since he offered ...
He then stood beside me at the checkout while I paid. Total payment £387.20 (as added up in my head). I got the receipt, along with what looked like some publicity leaflets, and went out to my car. I didn't get an offer of help for that bit.
I didn't check the details on the receipt at the time -- I felt that things had basically taken their expected course.
After checking my bank account, however, I did check the receipt in detail. At the top:
HEWLETPACK A961EM T2390 £329.97
and beneath that, in very small print:
Discount Manager Offer - Manager Discretion -£7.99
then:
PC PERFORMANCE £7.99
followed by the items for the network switch and the bag.
So I had been signed up for their "PC Performance" cover, including the first instalment of £7.99, without noticing (it had not changed the total price).
And I have no recollection of being asked at any time if I wanted this. If I had been, I would have said no -- because the first thing I intended to do was to wipe off Windows and put on Linux, which would probably have voided any warranty. (In any case, I never take up these "product cover & support" things).
I then phoned "PC Performance" (a PC World sideline), and was told that they would cancel the cover, and cease the D/D, but I could not get a refund because more than 2 weeks had passed. If I wanted to get the money back, I should contact my Bank to initiate an "Indemnity Claim".
So I phoned my Bank, and described the situation. "Oh, it looks as though they've been a bit cheeky", she said. We discussed Indemnity Claim, and it seemd a long shot (there had been two of them at the till, one the cashier, the other the shop-floor assistant), so I dropped the idea. But she said she would immediately close the D/D.
She rang back a few minutes later, to say that since the D/D had been cancelled on the same day a debit had been made, the debit of £7.99 for that day would be refunded. So that left me overall £7.99 out of pocket (break-even on the first one, due to "Manager's Discretion"). Not worth trying to take further, though I felt annoyed enough to want to!
Well, that's my PC World experience! Moral: look closely at the receipt! (Though by the time I could have done that, it would all have been set up already -- but at least I would have been within the 2-week period for getting any money back).
(And I didn't get the impression that it was the first time the Bank lady had heard such a story ... ).
/
I think I would be inclined to send this message to every UK published computer magazine, /., The Register, any national newspaper that has a financial help column and just about any web site that PC World customers might possibly read. Name and shame. I never use PC World they are generally expensive and un-helpful/knowledgeable. Now it seems they are dishonest too!
Cheers, BJ
John Woodard wrote:
I think I would be inclined to send this message to every UK published computer magazine, /., The Register, any national newspaper that has a financial help column and just about any web site that PC World customers might possibly read. Name and shame. I never use PC World they are generally expensive and un-helpful/knowledgeable. Now it seems they are dishonest too!
Cheers, BJ
I wholly agree on this matter, I have never been a fan of PC World ever since they totally screwed up on numerous PCs over the years for the family.
Steve www.stevey.eu
At Thu, 28 May 2009 07:04:37 +0100, steveydoteu wrote:
John Woodard wrote:
I think I would be inclined to send this message to every UK published computer magazine, /., The Register, any national newspaper that has a financial help column and just about any web site that PC World customers might possibly read. Name and shame. I never use PC World they are generally expensive and un-helpful/knowledgeable. Now it seems they are dishonest too!
Cheers, BJ
I wholly agree on this matter, I have never been a fan of PC World ever since they totally screwed up on numerous PCs over the years for the family.
You mean you went more than once! 8-o
I remember when we went to PC World with the family to buy a new computer. We were accosted by this old sales assistant called Ron. This was when Windows ME was new and the height of Ron's expertise was to reassure us that, when using Windows ME, if we found that some of items on our Start menu had disappeared, we shouldn't panic. All we had to do was click a little button at the bottom of the menu and they'd come back.
We had no end of trouble with that piece of Packard Bell junk. My brother and I still laugh at "Packard Bell" and "Ron".
In order to set up a direct debit they would have needed a sort code and bank account number. Did you give this to them? If you didn't then they must have took down the details without asking, as some debit cards have these details on them and set the DD up that way (fraud?!). If they did set up a DD i am pretty sure they have to run through the whole DD guarantee, about your rights to cancel etc. If you definately didn't give them the sort code and account number and these details were not embossed on your debit card then the payment must have been a recurring card payment. From what i have heard from others, these can be much harder to cancel, as unless you cancel the card entirely (i.e. not just get a replacement with the same card number) they can continue to process payments and there is not an easy way to block them as there is with DD's.
Hi
I bought a PC from PC World too when Windows ME was the latest, it too was a Packard Bell piece of junk. It was twice as fast as the machine it was replacing supposedly, but it was rubbish.
Simon
On 28 May 2009, at 11:06, Richard Lewis wrote:
At Thu, 28 May 2009 07:04:37 +0100, steveydoteu wrote:
John Woodard wrote:
I think I would be inclined to send this message to every UK published computer magazine, /., The Register, any national newspaper that has a financial help column and just about any web site that PC World customers might possibly read. Name and shame. I never use PC World they are generally expensive and un-helpful/knowledgeable. Now it seems they are dishonest too!
Cheers, BJ
I wholly agree on this matter, I have never been a fan of PC World ever since they totally screwed up on numerous PCs over the years for the family.
You mean you went more than once! 8-o
I remember when we went to PC World with the family to buy a new computer. We were accosted by this old sales assistant called Ron. This was when Windows ME was new and the height of Ron's expertise was to reassure us that, when using Windows ME, if we found that some of items on our Start menu had disappeared, we shouldn't panic. All we had to do was click a little button at the bottom of the menu and they'd come back.
We had no end of trouble with that piece of Packard Bell junk. My brother and I still laugh at "Packard Bell" and "Ron".
--
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On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 05:43:49PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
And I have no recollection of being asked at any time if I wanted this. If I had been, I would have said no -- because the first thing I intended to do was to wipe off Windows and put on Linux, which would probably have voided any warranty. (In any case, I never take up these "product cover & support" things).
If the very first thing you did was remove windows and never ran it or agreed to the license agreement you are entitled under Microsoft rules to return it to the vendor for a refund. (at least this was certainly the case in the past) So, I think you should be asking PC World for a refund for the unused software!
Adam
On 27-May-09 18:11:58, Adam Bower wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 05:43:49PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
And I have no recollection of being asked at any time if I wanted this. If I had been, I would have said no -- because the first thing I intended to do was to wipe off Windows and put on Linux, which would probably have voided any warranty. (In any case, I never take up these "product cover & support" things).
If the very first thing you did was remove windows and never ran it or agreed to the license agreement you are entitled under Microsoft rules to return it to the vendor for a refund. (at least this was certainly the case in the past) So, I think you should be asking PC World for a refund for the unused software!
Adam
Unfortunately I *did* run Windows as the first thing, just to get the "feel" of the machine before proceeding. Then I did wipe it and install Debian Lenny.
So, in all honesty (!!) I don't think I should follow that up! (In any case, I suspect it may have quietly registered itself because it was connected to my ADSL at the time ... ). Ted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@manchester.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 27-May-09 Time: 19:29:50 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 19:11 +0100, Adam Bower wrote:
If the very first thing you did was remove windows and never ran it or agreed to the license agreement you are entitled under Microsoft rules to return it to the vendor for a refund. (at least this was certainly the case in the past) So, I think you should be asking PC World for a refund for the unused software!
AFAIK For OEM software it is the OEM that is responsible to honour that part of the agreement not Microsoft or the Retailer (if different from the OEM)
Last time I tried this trick with Toshiba they said that the laptop could only be sold as bundled with that OEM software (in this case Windows XP) and although I was entitled to return the machine in full if I didn't agree to the software terms,but if the machine had been used they were entitled to charge me a restocking fee.
I only tried it for giggles really so didn't proceed any further.
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 11:12:05PM +0100, Wayne Stallwood wrote:
AFAIK For OEM software it is the OEM that is responsible to honour that part of the agreement not Microsoft or the Retailer (if different from the OEM)
I /think/ that the license says "vendor" so it could be open to interpretation, but don't quote me on that :)
Last time I tried this trick with Toshiba they said that the laptop could only be sold as bundled with that OEM software (in this case Windows XP) and although I was entitled to return the machine in full if I didn't agree to the software terms,but if the machine had been used they were entitled to charge me a restocking fee.
I /think/ you can then tell them this is illegal under EU anti-compete laws (again, I could be totally wrong) and see what they say. It might get you put through to a supervisor at least if they think you might be going to cause more hassle. ;)
I still reckon Ted should say he wants to return on the basis that the machine is not "fit for purpose" under the sales of goods act as the supplied operating system is crap. ;)
Also, just after a bit of reading about the "pc performance" from this url http://www.pcworld.co.uk/store_doc/GE/mb/pcp/pcp-support-service.html
I note:
"If you have a complaint about the way in which the Support Agreement was sold, please contact PC World Customer Services"
Now, that sounds *very* odd to me, it would almost suggest that they have had problems in the past....
Anyhow, I would also be complaining to them now and trading standards as Ted has been charged for a product he didn't want to purchase, this would be some form of deception at very least and also potentially quite expensive for PC World, I'd at least expect them to refund the amount paid as the service was never used and cancelled at first opportunity unless they want to have some bad publicity (oh, hangon) and legal action taken against them.
Adam
It's been a while since I was involved with Point of Sale card transactions but I am sure I remember something whereby it is against most card issuers/ merchants terms to do a transaction on a card where there is a reoccuring sub component.
So you can't/couldn't do a transaction as yours where there is a total amount and a reoccuring smaller amount without authorising twice (and therefore requiring you to authorise two transactions)
If neither the card receipt (if separate) or the till receipt show the £7.99 as a reoccuring payment (with the interval) and/or they are listed under the same totals and transactions as the main payment then I think you may have a reasonable case of fraud...it's pretty obvious from your description that they were trying to mask the reoccuring payment at the point of sale by discounting the first occurrence so you didn't notice it on the sale total.
As John says this experience needs to go everywhere, blogs, facebook, in a letter to the store manager, the card issuer and the merchant...there are plenty of people who don't check their statements as thoroughly as you and will be getting charged for this.
On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 17:43 +0100, Ted.Harding@manchester.ac.uk wrote:
Long story, so apologies -- but the details matter.
A few days ago I was checking my bank account online. I noticed a Direct Debit for £7.99 made that day. Puzzled, I checked the full transaction details: it was to PC World. I checked back earlier -- another one, a month earlier.
Well, I had been to PC World in Cambridge a couple of months earlier. Objective: pick up a cheapish laptop to play with some Linux distros, then do a proper installation.
I noticed a quite nice Hewlett Packard T2390 on special offer at £329.97 (not too keen on the keyboard, but it's OK. The rest seems fine). While I was looking around, one of the shop-floor assistants latched on to me assiduously. I tried asking him something about printers, (built-in PostScript with auto-duplex capability) but he didn't know much. While I was at it I picked up an ethernet switch and a laptop carrier bag. Total bill £387.20 (added up in my head).
He then offered to help me carry the stuff (cardboard box with the laptop in, switch box, bag) to the checkout, which I didn't really need but since he offered ...
He then stood beside me at the checkout while I paid. Total payment £387.20 (as added up in my head). I got the receipt, along with what looked like some publicity leaflets, and went out to my car. I didn't get an offer of help for that bit.
I didn't check the details on the receipt at the time -- I felt that things had basically taken their expected course.
After checking my bank account, however, I did check the receipt in detail. At the top:
HEWLETPACK A961EM T2390 £329.97
and beneath that, in very small print:
Discount Manager Offer - Manager Discretion -£7.99
then:
PC PERFORMANCE £7.99
followed by the items for the network switch and the bag.
So I had been signed up for their "PC Performance" cover, including the first instalment of £7.99, without noticing (it had not changed the total price).
And I have no recollection of being asked at any time if I wanted this. If I had been, I would have said no -- because the first thing I intended to do was to wipe off Windows and put on Linux, which would probably have voided any warranty. (In any case, I never take up these "product cover & support" things).
I then phoned "PC Performance" (a PC World sideline), and was told that they would cancel the cover, and cease the D/D, but I could not get a refund because more than 2 weeks had passed. If I wanted to get the money back, I should contact my Bank to initiate an "Indemnity Claim".
So I phoned my Bank, and described the situation. "Oh, it looks as though they've been a bit cheeky", she said. We discussed Indemnity Claim, and it seemd a long shot (there had been two of them at the till, one the cashier, the other the shop-floor assistant), so I dropped the idea. But she said she would immediately close the D/D.
She rang back a few minutes later, to say that since the D/D had been cancelled on the same day a debit had been made, the debit of £7.99 for that day would be refunded. So that left me overall £7.99 out of pocket (break-even on the first one, due to "Manager's Discretion"). Not worth trying to take further, though I felt annoyed enough to want to!
Well, that's my PC World experience! Moral: look closely at the receipt! (Though by the time I could have done that, it would all have been set up already -- but at least I would have been within the 2-week period for getting any money back).
(And I didn't get the impression that it was the first time the Bank lady had heard such a story ... ).
Best wishes to all, Ted.
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) Ted.Harding@manchester.ac.uk Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861 Date: 27-May-09 Time: 17:43:46 ------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
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On Wed, 2009-05-27 at 17:43 +0100, Ted.Harding@manchester.ac.uk wrote:
I then phoned "PC Performance" (a PC World sideline), and was told that they would cancel the cover, and cease the D/D, but I could not get a refund because more than 2 weeks had passed. If I wanted to get the money back, I should contact my Bank to initiate an "Indemnity Claim".
So I phoned my Bank, and described the situation. "Oh, it looks as though they've been a bit cheeky", she said. We discussed Indemnity Claim, and it seemd a long shot (there had been two of them at the till, one the cashier, the other the shop-floor assistant), so I dropped the idea. But she said she would immediately close the D/D.
I'd have another chat with your bank. In the event that you dispute that a direct debit should have been paid I would expect them to refund it (they have 2 working days to do so) and leave you to settle any dispute with the orgasnisation concerned (in this case PC World).
On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 05:43:49PM +0100, Ted Harding wrote:
Long story, so apologies -- but the details matter.
A few days ago I was checking my bank account online. I noticed a Direct Debit for £7.99 made that day. Puzzled, I checked the full transaction details: it was to PC World. I checked back earlier -- another one, a month earlier.
Further braindump, I'm sure all Direct Debits are covered by the direct debit guarantee... to me it doesn't like you were provided with one, did you sign a direct debit mandate? As i'd be asking the bank for a copy of this too as if they cant' supply it I /think/ (must stop guessing at this stuff) you are discharged of all liabilities and the bank have to give your money back. (use your local friendly neighbourhood search engine to find out more on this and many other exciting financial and legal subjects).
Adam
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Adam Bower -
John Woodard -
Richard Lewis -
Ricky Bruce -
Simon Royal -
Steven Fosdick -
steveydoteu -
Ted.Harding＠manchester.ac.uk -
Wayne Stallwood