Please, this is not a get at iPlug or ALUG day. Why is it being treated as one.
What is wrong with us at iPlug having a wiki of our own?
Do we have to do everything together? If so, why have separate names?
Now people, play nice. This was only our first meeting. Do not lets spoil something that was good and fun and interesting with nasty fighting when there is nothing to fight about.
Tracy x
-----Original Message----- From: main-bounces@lists.alug.org.uk [mailto:main-bounces@lists.alug.org.uk] On Behalf Of MJ Ray Sent: 20 February 2007 14:23 To: samwise@bagshot-row.org; main@lists.alug.org.uk Subject: Re: [ALUG] Re: IpLUG - Meeting
samwise samwise@bagshot-row.org wrote: [...]
That said, the consensus last night seemed to me that a flexible wiki was a priority for us and, therefore, I'm going to go ahead and set that up before the next meet under the iPlug name (a branch of ALUG). I hope this doesn't come across as a an attempt to splinter the ALUG community, but I truly don't want to pile on pressure and deadlines to
a community which, I'm sure, has been doing perfectly well on its own so far ... ;)
Yes, I feel it comes across as an attempt to splinter the ALUG.
Why not use the flexible wiki at http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/ ? It's only 'not open' because there's been some low-maintenance efforts to block spammers. If you want to replace the WikiEngine, change the anti-spam and revamp the content, I'm sure many people would welcome that. The webmasters could either give you ssh, ftp or a redirect. I tried to replace it in the past, but lack of familiarity with modern wikis and a worker going silent mid-change meant it never happened.
If ALUG moves towards the same open model at any point in the future,
Huh? How is ALUG not open? Have the cabal suddenly moved in and locked it down in the few months since I left? I doubt it.
All you have to do is pick a job and start doing it yourselves. You don't have to "pile on pressure and deadlines" to anyone.
I suggest starting by either editing the pages with the "Edit Page" links or getting website access of a type you like from either: David Reynolds Sionide and if they don't move: Jonathan McDowell Me (maybe) should still also have access and can add access, while: Darren Casey Jonathan McDowell Martyn Drake UKLUGS (Andy Smith?) control the web hosting and domains IIRC. I'm sure one of those will have time to open the door to you.
I think iPlug seems to have a bad case of 'Not Invented Here' and is unwilling to cooperate with its neighbours. I feel it's particularly stupid to split an existing web site when lugmasters have been looking at merging/co-hosting dynamic sites, to ease maintenance: there just aren't enough webmaster-hours to go round. If iPlug has spare webmaster-hours, please share them!
Regards,
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 14:55 +0000, Tracy Dickerson wrote:
Do we have to do everything together? If so, why have separate names?
Heh I was going to ask the same thing, I guess I am still struggling to understand what IpLUG gains by having a separate name/website/library etc, what added flexibility does that offer the Ipswich side members which they cannot get from being members of ALUG ?
I could sort of understand splitting a LUG if the geographical area was _huge_ or if the membership numbers were so large that some members felt they wanted a bit more identity in a smaller group. But neither of those things are really the case with ALUG as far as I can tell, in fact I wish there were more active/new members.
The way ALUG is organised (as others pointed out) there is no hierarchy, some members are more active than others but everyone has the equal opportunity to become active, host meetings, run kit meets, offer to take over the running of the library etc etc. So if ALUG is not doing something (like holding meetings in your area) then the obvious thing to do is pick up those tasks and offer them for the whole.
Now people, play nice. This was only our first meeting. Do not lets spoil something that was good and fun and interesting with nasty fighting when there is nothing to fight about.
The last thing any of us wants is to turn this thread into an ALUG vs IpLUG flame war. I strongly encourage anybody who contributes anything towards OSS or the communities that surround it. If you really want to form a separate community around the Ipswich area then ultimately you have my blessing and I probably will want to attend the meets you organise. I just wish somebody could explain to me why it is necessary.
If there is an air of hostility I am sure it is not intended by any of the members here. People are probably just confused and getting more than a tiny whiff of a power struggle which is silly because there really is no power to struggle with. Other people (like me) wonder if there is some personal dispute between members which is prompting this split, those sort of feelings do have a habit of putting people on edge.
Sorry I couldn't make it to your meet, I really wanted to attend but I got sidetracked by work. I also like your idea of a code library (or on-line cheat book) I maintain one of those myself for internal use in my company, we keep it in two sections one is a client diary so others can see what I changed when I was last at a particular clients. The other section is close to what you are suggesting and is a tips and tricks section where we document problems to which we had to work hard to find solutions for. That way when we get "yes I have seen that before" syndrome there is the solution at hand.
Kind Regards Wayne
On 20/02/07, Wayne Stallwood ALUGlist@digimatic.co.uk wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-20 at 14:55 +0000, Tracy Dickerson wrote:
Do we have to do everything together? If so, why have separate names?
Heh I was going to ask the same thing, I guess I am still struggling to understand what IpLUG gains by having a separate name/website/library etc, what added flexibility does that offer the Ipswich side members which they cannot get from being members of ALUG ?
Hi, Wayne!
If we implement a new wiki, it is likely to be hosted by lug.org.uk (like a good majority of LUGs around the country) - if it is hosted by an independent third party, that will make passing the admin control around as simple as sending an email with the appropriate passwords and noone has to worry about the hardware. Therefore, logic dictates the URI will be ipswich.lug.org.uk.
The name iPlug was born, therefore, only to match that URI and as a shorthand to differentiate the proposed Ipswich wiki from the current ALUG site. If we can get a dialogue going and build a modern, flexible ALUG wiki sometime soon, I see no problem working under the ALUG brand.
The way ALUG is organised (as others pointed out) there is no hierarchy, some members are more active than others but everyone has the equal opportunity to become active, host meetings, run kit meets, offer to take over the running of the library etc etc. So if ALUG is not doing something (like holding meetings in your area) then the obvious thing to do is pick up those tasks and offer them for the whole.
OK, we've started the meetings. The ideas that are coming out now, though, really need the use of a site which can be *easily* contributed to by any of our local members.
The last thing any of us wants is to turn this thread into an ALUG vs IpLUG flame war. I strongly encourage anybody who contributes anything towards OSS or the communities that surround it. If you really want to form a separate community around the Ipswich area then ultimately you have my blessing and I probably will want to attend the meets you organise. I just wish somebody could explain to me why it is necessary.
<SNIP>
... Other people (like me) wonder if there is some personal dispute between members which is prompting this split, those sort of feelings do have a habit of putting people on edge.
To be clear, I have no personal agenda against either ALUG or any of its members. :) I'm trying to be constructive and I hope that's come across. Since my first post to this list (admittedly only a scant few weeks ago), I have been asking how ALUG (and how I can help it!) can help me get an Ipswich LUG off the ground - which is going to need what, IMHO, is a relatively basic requirement - an easy-to-use community-built website. The current ALUG site doesn't seem to fit that.* I swopped a few emails off-list with David and it sounded like there might be some movement towards a more modern wiki, but then comms dried up.
Bottom-line, I don't want to rock the boat. If ALUG is fine with its site the way it is, then fair play but to start cracking at the sorts of ideas we have been discussing, we need something more flexible, and it would therefore make sense for us to create a new one. If ALUG likes what it sees, then perhaps it can be folded back in sometime in the future.
My offer's on the table - if the whole of ALUG wants to head in this same direction, I'll happily jump in with that. However, being a relative newcomer to this list, I don't feel it's my place to chase people (whom I don't know) off it, in the hopes of getting buy-in when those same people are also unlikely to be attending our meets!
* if someone's willing to convince me that the current ALUG site is flexible enough for our needs, I'm more than happy to have that discussion - perhaps a scheduled meet on IRC, if that's convenient.
Sorry I couldn't make it to your meet, I really wanted to attend but I got sidetracked by work. I also like your idea of a code library (or on-line cheat book)
No problem ... the intention is to keep them regular from now on. :)
When we get this whole website issue sorted out, we can get cracking on all the suggestions we've been eagerly discussing!
I've already offered to travel to Norwich for a discussion/planning session but, alternatively, would it help if I committed to join the IRC meeting next Monday at 20:00? Would a discussion there be easier? Would any of the site maintainers be willing to talk about this?
I'm *not* interested in a power struggle and I *don't* want to pressure other people to implement something that ALUG may not be interested in, but we have lots of things we want to start trying down here and I also want to start organising some proper publicising and, for that, we need to commit to a domain name. If we didn't care about the ALUG connection, I think we'd have had a new site running by now.
Thoughts, everyone?
I'd also be interested to hear from non-Ipswich based members and whether they would like to see the kind of functionality we're discussing, or whether they're happy with the site as is.
Cheers,
Peter.
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samwise -
Tracy Dickerson -
Wayne Stallwood