I'm finally compelled to write to this mail group after starting this message numerous times over the months. Sorry to be critical, but I'm somewhat jaded reading about Linux on the desktop and whether it's ready or not, or in schools etc., or how to interest the masses. The question you should be asking is - is Linux ready for the public? I don't think so, and my criticism is that this Lug is not helping to change that.
You talk as a group about going into schools and this is of course important. But worrying about the wording of letters or how to tackle the press is missing the point. These students possibly won't be in a position to decide what professional software they use for quite a few years, even if you do convert them - which you must. Who you should be concentrating on is Joe public - i.e. people like me. I can see Linux is coming, I've had a Xandros box for about 6 months, but I've only managed to transfer perhaps about 5% of my real work onto it, and do that work at about 50% efficiency compared to the same tasks on my other Win2000 box. I & Joe public need some actual training. So do students and their educational peers. Even the EDP computer press correspondent might be interested.
And this is the crunch. I don't really want to have to learn about Linux. I want to use a linux based PC to do real work, not mess about with the OS. But I appreciate I must learn the basics. Once I do, other aspects will fall into place over time, just as we all learnt CP/M, DOS & Windows over the years. But it's that 'over the first hump' where help is needed. Well shouldn't I open a book and get stuck in? Yes, probably I should, but I'm reluctant to spend the time leaning about Linux, any more than I want to delve into the inner workings of MS Windows. And anyway you can't ask a book questions can you? There's no substitute to talking to or learning from someone with knowledge, face to face.
So what's my point? I think LUGs should be concentrating 100% on education. If you want to stay as a group of professional enthusiasts meeting every so often, then fine. Rename yourselves APLUG. If you want your favoured OS to become universally popular, get out there and start passing on your knowledge. I've been to four of five ALUG meetings and to me they're a waste of time. They're disorganised, and have no focus or agenda, no advance billing of what's to occur. With one exception I don't think I've learnt anything practical from any of these meetings. MJR kindly sorted a software install problem I had, but if today I was faced with the same problem, then I wouldn't know how to fix it. What is needed here is not band aids for on-going software glitches, but a more thorough examination of what's going on to kick start us.
Once I'm achieving something as easily on my Xandros system and I can under Windows, then I'm sure to tell friends and recommend Linux. I can't at the moment.
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On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 09:26:39AM +0000, Colin Hards wrote:
So what's my point? I think LUGs should be concentrating 100% on education. If you want to stay as a group of professional enthusiasts meeting every so often, then fine. Rename yourselves APLUG. If you want your favoured OS to become universally popular, get out there and start passing on your knowledge. I've been to four of five ALUG meetings and to me they're a waste of time. They're disorganised, and have no focus or agenda, no advance billing of what's to occur. With one exception I don't think I've
hangon, if you think Alug should be doing this and doing that why are you moaning about it and not doing anything? Alug is run by the members for the members if it is not meeting your needs then *you* do something about it. Their are many people here who are willing to to give talks etc. etc. but until someone asks for them they are not likely to do them because of a lack of a perceived need and because they are busy working on other things.
I have not seen you ask for a topic for the meetings before so why are you telling us how bad they are? Also many of us are working on things to make Linux more universally popular just we don't do it within Alug as it is not the most suitable framwork for us to work within. The meetings are not really "disorganised" either, they are a bunch of geeks/hackers/linux users/friends who like to meet up every couple of months to talk about computers and other crap, in some ways they are deliberatly disorganised as even without a formal agenda we always end up locked out of the venue standing around talking in the cold because we run out of time. If anyone comes to us with a specific need or topic they need a talk on then we will try and arrange something. If you find the meetings a waste of time why do you come to them? I really like them as it gives me a chance to catch up with people that I have not seen in a while.
Many of us also work directly with spreading the word and the software, indeed all my previous jobs have seen me spreading Linux and free software where possible within companies and organisations. The main reason Alug exists is for a group Anglian Linux users to talk about one of their favourite interests, it is not just a group to help evangelise Linux and free software.
If Alug can provide you with something more then why are you not asking us for help or guidance? Unfortunatly my crystal ball got dropped last year and I can't afford a new one, and I have not had the time to practise my mind reading skills recently.
Once I'm achieving something as easily on my Xandros system and I can under Windows, then I'm sure to tell friends and recommend Linux. I can't at the moment.
Once people can show me how to do things I do on a windows system that I can under windows then I am sure to tell all my freinds and recommend windows. I can't at the moment. Or whatabout if I change that to Mac OS X? Many tasks that I have worked on with Linux in the past couple of years are tasks that could not be completed on windows. One of the more interesting ones was working with a special effects company doing effects for what was (and remains) a rather high profile movie.
Adam
This reply was very much in the tradition of "they who do things may comment" which is understandable given the background, but may not be the best thing. Maybe we should just put more weight behind the opinions of those who do stuff, but we still need to listen to others.
Adam Bower abower@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
[...] Also many of us are working on things to make Linux more universally popular just we don't do it within Alug as it is not the most suitable framwork for us to work within.
That's true, but we're not such a small group any more that we each can remember what everyone else does. Once again, we come back to the ideas of a members directory or similar. Actually, there's one started on the contrib area which probably should be snapshotted in a similar way to the FAQ. Some of these could do with updating. http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?MembersDirectory
Colin Hards clive1248@hotmail.com wrote:
[...] I've been to four of five ALUG meetings and to me they're a waste of time. They're disorganised, and have no focus or agenda, no advance billing of what's to occur. With one exception I don't think I've learnt anything practical from any of these meetings. [...]
Well, what can you do to help fix it? It sounds as though you have some clear ideas about what you'd like to see happen at a meeting, so help us to make it reality. I would say that there is advance billing of as much as we're aware of, but maybe it needs more planned activities and more circulation. How to organise that?
Personally, I'm always willing to help find speakers, give talks, etc, but Norwich is just too far away for me now to give practical help with things like venues and hosting. Syd, BJ and Rob are nominal venue hosts at the moment, but I suspect all would welcome help. I think Adam is trying to keep the meeting planner after my spectacular failure earlier this year. Adam, BJ and myself admin the main list. The social list doesn't seem to need much admin, while pretty much no human ever sends anything to the announce list. Hosting is from Darren (php4hosting) and Jonathan (Black Cat Networks). I've got the web site, but the contrib area is open to all (click "edit this page"). Probably there are others doing jobs and I apologise for not mentioning them by name.
All of this would welcome help, I think. If all of the people on this list did a little bit for ALUG, we would be blazing ahead. If you're not sure what needs doing, post a bit about the sort of thing you'd like to do and someone will give you ideas.
On Monday 07 Jul 2003 10:26 am, Colin Hards wrote:
So what's my point? I think LUGs should be concentrating 100% on education. If you want to stay as a group of professional enthusiasts meeting every so often, then fine. Rename yourselves APLUG. If you want your favoured OS to become universally popular, get out there and start passing on your knowledge. I've been to four of five ALUG meetings and to me they're a waste of time. They're disorganised, and have no focus or agenda, no advance billing of what's to occur. With one exception I don't think I've learnt anything practical from any of these meetings. MJR kindly sorted a software install problem I had, but if today I was faced with the same problem, then I wouldn't know how to fix it. What is needed here is not band aids for on-going software glitches, but a more thorough examination of what's going on to kick start us.
The best way to get more out of the meetings is to get involved, post to the List or Wiki with topics/talks/requests you would like to see at a meeting and see if there are any members who are willing to assist.
As for being a "professional" LUG I really don't think that is a valid point. Yes some members are Linux/Unix pros but I suspect the vast majority like myself are not. The group was originally setup for advocacy for Linux *users* it does not try to be an elitest group in any way shape or form.
If you are unhappy at the slightly disorganised way meetings are conducted get involved, help organise a meeting. I'm sure any of the venue hosts, myself included would welcome any help praticle or idea wise. Alug belongs to its members therefore its up to its members to make it what they want it to be.
Cheers, BJ
Interesting message, Colin.
I'm going to be blunt - I think there are some widespread misconceptions about linux users and that some of your assumptions about ALUG come from these.
One is that that everyone who uses linux is some sort of evangelist who is anti-microsoft and wants to persuade everyone else to use linux instead. Not necessarily so even if some are.
Another is that ALUG is some sort of crusading organisation that should be trying to get everyone to use linux. Also not so, at least as far as I can tell.
It took me some time to see this but ALUG is not an "organisation" at all. It is a loose group of individuals with some interests in common, that's all. IMHO that really is the key to understanding everything about ALUG and what does and does not happen.
I too find most of what is discussed goes way over my head but equally I can ask my silly beginner's questions and get helpful answers. That is one of the keys things. And a lot of help goes on off-list by email. .
Although the IT professionals and old hands will not agree, getting to know linux is not simple for the novice although it has got much easier in the last year or two.
I have years of windows 3.1/95/98SE tricks, tweaks, custom and practice in my head - it will take a long time to equal that in another OS. There's no hurry - it's a hobby not a crusade - just join in and give it time to develop.
So that would be my advice - take your time, try and learn how to do one thing at a time and ask a specific question about a specific problem, one at a time, to get specific help. What are finding difficult to do in Xandros this week for example?
And don't worry about persuading anyone else to use linux until you are sure that you want to use it yourself and are comfortable with it.
Really, it's up to you if you want to use linux or not. But if you do want to try using linux then ALUG is one way of meeting other people in the region that are also interested in it and may be able to help you.
I do hope to see you at another Norwich evening meeting sometime. They are just social get-togethers you know but personal face-to-face contacts will hopefully become sources of friendship and even technical support!
As a non-technical person, I'm very interested in seeing Xandros actually - maybe we can arrange something off list if you wouldn't mind me coming to see it some time? Or - why not come to the sunday meeting on the 20th and bring your kit along for people to see - a lift to and from the NRBL can easily be arranged.
Regards Syd
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Colin Hards wrote:
I can see Linux is coming, I've had a Xandros box for about 6 months, but I've only managed to transfer perhaps about 5% of my real work onto it, and do that work at about 50% efficiency compared to the same tasks on my other Win2000 box.
While I sympathize with the replies of other group members to the effect that we're a Linux users' group, not a Linux trainers' group or a Linux evangelists' group, and that Colin's post doesn't give enough detail for us to help much, these statistics scare me. Something's wrong here. Colin, perhaps you could tell us what your job is, and maybe give us some examples of tasks you've been unable to transfer to Linux, or have been able to transfer, but only at low productivity. I think it probable that we'll be able to come up with some tips to change this.
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Adam Bower -
Colin Hards -
Dan Hatton -
John Woodard -
MJ Ray -
Syd Hancock