Thanks to everyone who replied.
hangon, if you think Alug should be doing this and doing that why are you moaning about it and not doing anything?
I can't do anything as I see myself as the pupil here. Do you mean I should be organising a venue? Alug seem to have this reasonable sorted, at least I've been to Syleham, Elmswell, King's Lynn, Norwich. Do you mean I should be badgering members to act as lecturers? I don't think I'm able to. I would hope that this request would encourage knowledgeable members (only you know if you have the knowledge and skills to do this) to come forward and perhaps volunteer to help train some beginners.
Their are many people here who are willing to to give talks etc.
Great. If this is so please get together with one or other of the main Alug organisers to see if a program of instruction or lectures could be arranged.
but until someone asks for them they are not likely to do them
That's what I'm doing - asking for them. I also saw some suggestions before Christmas on this mail list of the possibility of lecture or talks being started early this year. So I've waited to see if any of these came about. You're now debating if you can 'educate' students / school teachers? I'm asking on behalf of home users.
because of a lack of a perceived need and because they are busy working on other things.
Lack of perceived need? If no one else on this list supports me then you may be right. But that conclusion won't get Linux thriving in East Anglia will it? Members here have talked about crusading on behalf of Linux. I'm suggesting one possible avenue to further that. Busy working. Yes, we all are. Of course I'm not demanding anyone gets involved here who hasn't the time and expertise, and the willingness to pass on their knowledge.
The meetings are not really "disorganised" either, they are a bunch of geeks/hackers/linux users/friends who like to meet up every couple of months to talk about computers and other crap, in some ways they are deliberatly disorganised as even without a formal agenda we always end up locked out of the venue standing around talking in the cold because we run out of time.
Hey, I've got no problem with this. You've every right to do precisely what you want at these meetings. If as a group you outwardly appear too professional, then perhaps you frighten away many possibly interested members of the public. This may deter beginners, not encourage them.
If anyone comes to us with a specific need or topic they need a talk on then we will try and arrange something.
I could quote you quite a few. But I'd rather ALUG set up a series of tutorials - maybe an hour at the beginning of a meeting - dedicated to a topic to help beginners. Or perhaps at another time if you want to keep the proceeding separate. Or would ten of the knowledgeable users give up a Saturday morning, or a couple of hours one evening, to get a series of lectures going? If you need subject suggestions, I'm happy to list a few.
If you find the meetings a waste of time why do you come to them?
It's fair to give everything a chance, and I have over more than six months. If I hadn't bothered to travel to any, you'd rightly criticise that. I'm merely saying that there seems little reason for me to attend any more of these gatherings unless I have a better idea in advance what can be got out of it.
Many of us also work directly with spreading the word and the software, indeed all my previous jobs have seen me spreading Linux and free software where possible within companies and organisations.
It seems to me that getting a Linux box, and a Linux OS with it or loaded onto it is the least of the problems. What is needed is help thereafter, using it to it's full potential. I'll leave the last few sections, as that probably won't help, but thanks Adam for your comments. ~~~~~~~~~
Well, what can you do to help fix it? It sounds as though you have some clear ideas about what you'd like to see happen at a meeting, . . . but maybe it needs more planned activities and more circulation. How to organise that?
Well, perhaps the Alug web site would help here. If the user group organised a series of lectures, then it should be publicised as widely as possible. On the web site. A5 leaflets in computer stores if they're agreeable, leaflets to schools / colleges. Give us a file to download from the web site, we each print out 100 or so at home. Leave some with local computer businesses. We all live near to some of these. I'll walk about and deliver some in Dereham if ALUG has a firm plan and publishes it a few weeks / months in advance. If no one registers to book a place at these lectures, well cancel the whole idea and there's only a little wasted effort or expense, but probably on the plus side the benefit of getting some exercise. But you need a thought out viable program up front to start with.
All of this would welcome help, I think.
Fair enough. You say you are fairly well organised administratively, and as I have little Linux experience or group knowledge it's difficult to see where I can help. But I appreciate that if I'm to benefit from your knowledge, then I must contribute. I'm happy to. I'm on the committee of two other 'pastime' societies, so feel I am repaying them for previous and current support. If I can help Alug I'm willing to give it a shot. ~~~~~~~~~~
My point is that you get away with not learning about a windows PC not because it works without having to do so but that you can't anyway mostly.
I'd quite happy to find fault with Windows and agree it's infuriating at times. Hence my toe in the water of Linux. I also agree that because we've grown up with Windows, knowledge about using the system has been acquired gradually over the years, just sufficient to do what we want. But a change over to Linux is not the same as an getting the next newer version of Windows. There's a lot of differences, and some training would get the show on the road much much quicker. The availability of this type of support would encourage a lot to think about Linux more seriously.
In further addition to this, if people do want specific Linux training then there are people around on this list who will do it for you, of course it will not be free, and it will probably not be cheap.
You're correct that there are quite a few expensive courses out there - I've seen £1675 for a 5 day Linux course. But I don't want to be a system administrator. I want to use a home computer. Companies who offer these courses know the individual isn't paying, his employer is, hence the price. There are also some quite modest ones - one I saw was in the order of £80 for a day's 'introduction to Linux' at Bromley college, and if my request peters out here then I'll probably think about that one. If anyone knows of courses closer to East Anglia not targeting system admins or costing many hundreds per day, then I'd be grateful if you can point me at them. I did a 6 month long one day a week course at Norwich City College a year ago. If they offered the same for Linux, I'd sign up. The course had about 20 others on it, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that a Linux and related subjects course might interest quite a few as well. But what's so terrible about paying for a course? I don't expect something for nothing. If you managed to get 10 beginners together for a day and each contributed a small fee, then you'd have quite a useful recompense even allowing for provision of computers and some travel expenses - or scale this for an evening etc.
It would be quite acceptable for someone to post on the list and offer to pay or ask for a complete training course.
This sounds like a 'one to one', and of course that would be expensive. So would a 'complete' course, and that implies decent training manuals and course notes, and would be time consuming for the trainer to set up and run. I'm thinking about a group, gathered around a computer or three, seeing a demo, taking notes themselves if they want to, maybe between 5 and 15 at a time? ~~~~~~~~~~
In the past, I remember informal demos being some of the most useful bits, but they're haphazard and unstructured. I'm not suggesting anything really demanding, but a bit of background material put up and some advance warning about what will be there.
Yes, great. I'd go for that as well. Choose a piece of software, and give half an hour about the basics, then take a Q&A on it, or allow a bit of hands on. Sounds good. Again, I'm happy to suggest a few for the list. ~~~~~~~~~
The best way to get more out of the meetings is to get involved, post to the List or Wiki with topics/talks/requests you would like to see at a meeting and see if there are any members who are willing to assist.
I'll wait for further reaction to this reply first, but if a list of subjects is needed I'll post one. Most of this will be pretty obvious, but I hope I'm past the point where it bothers me too much to admit my ignorance. I hope others in a similar position or sharing this view will also post to this list. If they don't, then I will have to conclude what I'm after really isn't required - as has been suggested. My reason for raising this subject was the huge number of messages on this list about Microsoft overcharging for software. This topic then drifted onto how to educate / get schools into the Linux camp. I'm jumping onto this bandwagon to champion a similar approach for the public. If this is not your remit then I'll say no more. Colin _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 10:55:42PM +0000, Colin Hards wrote:
I can't do anything as I see myself as the pupil here. Do you mean I should be organising a venue? Alug seem to have this reasonable sorted, at least I've been to Syleham, Elmswell, King's Lynn, Norwich. Do you mean I should be badgering members to act as lecturers? I don't think I'm able to. I
Why can you not arrange a series of lectures? If you take care of the organising bits that only leaves you to find some people willing to talk. I figure lots of people are more likely to be willing to talk if you give them a subject and a time/date to give the talk.
Great. If this is so please get together with one or other of the main Alug organisers to see if a program of instruction or lectures could be arranged.
I am one of the Alug organisers, if you wish for a talk then as has been said already ask for it. If people want to give talks at the meetings then they can, it is a free stage really.
but until someone asks for them they are not likely to do them
That's what I'm doing - asking for them. I also saw some suggestions before
The way you asked was to say that the meetings were not worthwhile and say that Alug was not doing enough. That is not a very good way to get on the right side of people, a much more tactful way of doing it would be to say something along the lines of "I feel I would get more out of meetings if" or "Would someone please give a talk on how a linux system starts and stops itself and the details of some of the bits inbetween"
If anyone comes to us with a specific need or topic they need a talk on then we will try and arrange something.
I could quote you quite a few. But I'd rather ALUG set up a series of tutorials - maybe an hour at the beginning of a meeting - dedicated to a topic to help beginners. Or perhaps at another time if you want to keep the
What do beginners need to know? I could give you a version of a talk that I am preparing to give soon for an introduction to linux to a group of highly experienced windows nt administrators but it would fly over the heads of most beginners. Give me an idea of what you want and maybe I will consider it more.
Well, perhaps the Alug web site would help here. If the user group organised a series of lectures, then it should be publicised as widely as possible. On the web site. A5 leaflets in computer stores if they're agreeable, leaflets to schools / colleges. Give us a file to download from the web site, we each print out 100 or so at home. Leave some with local computer businesses. We all live near to some of these. I'll walk about and deliver some in Dereham if ALUG has a firm plan and publishes it a few weeks / months in advance. If no one registers to book a place at these lectures, well cancel the whole idea and there's only a little wasted effort or expense, but probably on the plus side the benefit of getting some exercise. But you need a thought out viable program up front to start with.
If you try and start the program you could arrange all of the above, the only thing you need is some willing volunteers (or victims) ;) to do the training.
But what's so terrible about paying for a course? I don't expect something for nothing. If you managed to get 10 beginners together for a day and each contributed a small fee, then you'd have quite a useful recompense even allowing for provision of computers and some travel expenses - or scale this for an evening etc.
Again I think this is a chicken and egg scenario, people don't want to be bothered sorting this kind of thing out without people asking. You could try and find 9 more people willing to pay for a days introduction and then ask here for people willing to do it. You would probably find lots of willing people when you got to mention cash was waiting :)
This sounds like a 'one to one', and of course that would be expensive. So would a 'complete' course, and that implies decent training manuals and course notes, and would be time consuming for the trainer to set up and run. I'm thinking about a group, gathered around a computer or three, seeing a demo, taking notes themselves if they want to, maybe between 5 and 15 at a time?
Not necessarily, if you again got up to 10 people willing to pay a decent amount for a week then tried to find the training it would probably work out ok.
Yes, great. I'd go for that as well. Choose a piece of software, and give half an hour about the basics, then take a Q&A on it, or allow a bit of hands on. Sounds good. Again, I'm happy to suggest a few for the list.
Tell me what bits of software and I will try and demo anything that I know about at a meeting.
I'll wait for further reaction to this reply first, but if a list of subjects is needed I'll post one. Most of this will be pretty obvious, but I hope I'm past the point where it bothers me too much to admit my ignorance. I hope others in a similar position or sharing this view will also post to this list. If they don't, then I will have to conclude what I'm after really isn't required - as has been suggested.
Ok, now i am sounding like a stuck record, list of subjects please :)
My reason for raising this subject was the huge number of messages on this list about Microsoft overcharging for software. This topic then drifted onto how to educate / get schools into the Linux camp. I'm jumping onto this bandwagon to champion a similar approach for the public. If this is not your remit then I'll say no more.
I am still more interested in getting schools to start slapping copies of Star Office on everything in sight, and using more free software to start with but not necessarily replacing windows yet. People will get more out of starting with a "stable" base OS (stable meaning they can fix it) and putting free software on top that they are unfamilar with. I think going down the put linux on first and then make it all work later route is a bit too much for most computer users. Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 22:21, Adam Bower wrote:
the lines of "I feel I would get more out of meetings if" or "Would someone please give a talk on how a linux system starts and stops itself and the details of some of the bits inbetween"
Actually that sounds like an extremely interesting thing to do, perhaps soon we can have a discussion starting with what a system does when you turn it on, and see how far we get in the course of an afternoon. The people who know less (eg yours truely) get to listen and ask questions and the people who know more get to chip in information and tips. Adam, would you mind leading a discussion like that? All we'd need is a machine to demonstrate on, or we could even do without a machine and just use a whiteboard or paper and keep it theoretical. Just as interesting to me either way :) I for one don't know much about how linux organises and runs itself while I'm busy reading my email and ircing and things and I'd love to find out more.
I could quote you quite a few. But I'd rather ALUG set up a series of tutorials - maybe an hour at the beginning of a meeting - dedicated to a topic to help beginners. Or perhaps at another time if you want to keep the
What do beginners need to know? I could give you a version of a talk that I am preparing to give soon for an introduction to linux to a group of highly experienced windows nt administrators but it would fly over the heads of most beginners. Give me an idea of what you want and maybe I will consider it more.
I don't think that setting up a series of tutorials way in advance and advertising them etc would necessarily work well in the Alug setting since we never know who will be able to make it to which meetings and I suspect we would often end up with someone who had gone to a lot of trouble to prepare a talk only to find that there is only one "beginner" there or maybe none at all. Sure, they could give the talk next time instead, but when you've gone to a lot of trouble preparing something and getting psyched up to do it and then find that it is almost as though no-one cared enough about your topic to show up, you don't really feel inclined to bother next time. Adam's talk about linux administration would be very interesting to listen to even if it did go mostly over beginner's heads, there are many non-beginners in Alug who I imagine would be interested in hearing it, so that is another good idea for a meeting.
Tell me what bits of software and I will try and demo anything that I know about at a meeting.
How about different types of mail software for linux? I never even *heard* of evolution until a couple of weeks ago (now I'm using it). I know there's lots of mail-related stuff, we all use email... Another thing I'd like to know more about is networking under linux (all the eth0, eth1 stuff). Oh, and another nice bit of software I'd like to know more about is that Koha library stuff that I don't use but should :) MJR, if you know anything at all about it, I'd be interested in having it demo'd. So we have on our ideas list: 1) talk/discussion on linux from start to stop (we could go *months* on that one) 2) talk on linux admin from Adam at some point 3) Mail software for linux 4) sorting out network configuration and what it all means 5) Koha demo and of course 6) Revolution OS film Anyway having chucked a few more concrete ideas into the ether I hope that we can pick something and run with it, for the next few meetings at least, and if no-one else can come up with anything I will try to think of something for later in the year. Though I am sure I won't have to since we are so many clever and imaginative people ;) /Kirsten
Kirsten Naylor <wildduck@wildduck.org.uk> wrote:
that Koha library stuff that I don't use but should :) MJR, if you know anything at all about it, I'd be interested in having it demo'd.
OK, once 2.0 is released, I'll do that. I'll also fix the DNS problems with the current installation that are screwing things up, before 2.0.
On Wednesday 09 Jul 2003 11:48 am, Kirsten Naylor wrote:
So we have on our ideas list: 1) talk/discussion on linux from start to stop (we could go *months* on that one) 2) talk on linux admin from Adam at some point 3) Mail software for linux 4) sorting out network configuration and what it all means 5) Koha demo and of course 6) Revolution OS film
Revolution OS I can do at Syleham if anybody can provide a projector and screen. Alternatively we could watch it on the Social Club big screen telly! I like the idea of the "From start to stop" talk/discussion very much. Cheers, BJ
On Wednesday 09 Jul 2003 11:48 am, Kirsten Naylor wrote:
So we have on our ideas list: 1) talk/discussion on linux from start to stop (we could go *months* on that one) 2) talk on linux admin from Adam at some point 3) Mail software for linux
To interject with my own request... 3a) Setting up spam and virus filtering. This could be in the realm of a multi-user system (thats being set up at my office) and a single-user system (I'd like it for the home too). If anyone happens to be a bit of a spamassasin guru or otherwise able to supply a human-led demo of the procedures I would be grateful. James
Adam Bower <abower@thebowery.co.uk> wrote:
I am one of the Alug organisers [...]
Gang, we've found one! Get the tar and feathers ready! [...]
I am still more interested in getting schools to start slapping copies of Star Office on everything in sight
Isn't that just trading one piece of non-free software with another? Admittedly, it should be easier to migrate away from.
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 11:04:03AM -0000, MJ Ray wrote:
Isn't that just trading one piece of non-free software with another? Admittedly, it should be easier to migrate away from.
Duh, I meant OpenOffice of course, having a stupid day :) Of course migration is not something you can do tomorrow, migrating everything to linux at once is not an enviable task. I don't think I have seen a migration for any size system that has taken less than a few months. You then get all the issues of having to train people so they can do things from scratch. The obvious route is to get people to make small steps in the right direction. ADam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem
Colin Hards <clive1248@hotmail.com> wrote:
I can't do anything as I see myself as the pupil here.
Then it will be ever thus.
Do you mean I should be organising a venue?
Maybe helping rather than organising. We seem OK for venues in your area just now, but some more southern or western ones would be nice. The King's Lynn venue is suspended until there's enough interest again. (Either people can tell me when they want one and I'll see what I can do, or someone else can take it over.) That said, I'm fairly sure all venue people are working alone or nearly right now, so if you can help, make yourself known to one you can help (I think email addresses are on http://www.alug.org.uk/venues/ pages). Booking and marshalling a venue is part of it, but there could be a lot of extra material produced, advertising, announcing on web sites that we don't know about. That sort of thing. We probably need to get booked *and planned* a bit more in advance than a couple of weeks, though. For talks/demos, you could comment on what you want to know about, either in specifics (like my Morphix request) or general terms (I don't know how foo works -- can someone explain at a meeting?). This goes for everyone. A bit more feedback on the poster idea would be nice. [...]
That's what I'm doing - asking for them. I also saw some suggestions before Christmas on this mail list of the possibility of lecture or talks being started early this year. So I've waited to see if any of these came about.
Thanks for asking. I waited to see if there was much interest. There didn't seem to be many people talking. Maybe everyone was waiting to see?
[...] If you need subject suggestions, I'm happy to list a few.
Please do. Alternatively, I could try to work through this syllabus, one topic at a time? http://www.lpi.org/en/obj_101.html Maybe you know of better ones to do with normal use? It's still rather easier to find sysadmin type things.
[...] Give us a file to download from the web site, we each print out 100 or so at home.
Meeting announcements are available on the web site and could make an A5 announcement without much trouble. If you can improve it, please let me know what changes to make. I'm thinking that I could leave out the right column, people listing and discussion link. Is that best?
[...] If I can help Alug I'm willing to give it a shot.
Where we have identified tasks (library, list, web uploading, venues) then we're mostly OK, but there are definitely other tasks that need identifying and doing, as your message highlights. [...]
hands on. Sounds good. Again, I'm happy to suggest a few for the list.
Please do. I'd like to know what is wanted by listeners, rather than guessing all the time. I got tired of guessing. Shame on me. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult."
I've been trying hard to stay out of this but who said he could resist everything but temptation (Oscar Wilde?). I'm not going to quote from Colin's posts or the replies. Colin makes some good and valid points that I think we would mostly accept and agree with. My impression, after being involved with the group myself for a year, is that he's very much pushing at an open door (no pun intended :o) ). I think a lot of ALUG participants would agree with him entirely but the problem is they have lives already. Someone made the point that we're not the traditional type of club or group or whatever, and I would also agree with that. Like the open source software movement, my impression is that ALUG is a sort of open group. People contribute to the activities that interest them most and (the killer this) that they can spare the time for. Like open source software where there are loads of projects I would love to get involved in, there are loads of ALUG ideas I'd like to pick up on and run with. Trouble is the time demands are likely to mean not getting any sleep within my own lifetime. Just finding the time to get to meetings is a real problem for me. How MJR et. al. manage to do all that they do for ALUG is completely beyond me. Rispek (as Ali Gee would say :o) ) Actually the analogy with OSS works well here. Go to any mailing list for an OS project and (if it's a popular one) there's a high level of discussion going on. Only a small fraction of the ideas generated actualy gets into the software because the people who can spare the time to actively participate have to be selective. As someone who has been writing software professionally for 30 years all I can say is that I am vary impressed with the engineering quality of the OS software code I have looked at and it looks like the process works (well for software anyway :o) ). What seems to happen within ALUG is that every now and then an idea is raised that interests someone enough for them to do something about it. Because of the time and cost demands these are usually fairly small in scope. So, Colin, yes we do talk a lot and do a little. That's not [only? :o) ] because we're disorganised or out of touch but mostly because there's not enough hours in the day. What you propose sounds great and no doubt, if properly implemented, would have a lot of impact. But we're not the sort of monolithic centrally controlled organisation that can implement that sort of thing. The single (and unwritten) rule in ALUG is "It won't happen unless you make it happen." and that means participating not just being involved. I see those of us that want to spread the word according to Linus and Richard acting more as a sort of guerrilla group looking for quick hits that give a reasonable return for a small investment. Personally my motivation is more selfish. I'm not that interested in spreading The Word. I use OS software because in my experience it tends to be better engineered than most. Also I can look under the bonnet to see how it works if I want to. In short its one of the most fun things I've done with my clothes on. If I can raise its profile and make others aware of its benefits and attractions then I will, but I'm not on a crusade to rule the world and if other people are content to carry on using proprietary software without question... well, it's a free country... well freeish!! :o) However I suspect that simply by raising this issue and making the points you have, that someone on the list will feel sufficiently inspired to do something. It's likely to be somewhat smaller in scope than your original idea but that's how it seems to work. Of course, as the person who started the ball rolling, you will be expected to be a major contributor ;o) Good grief it's half past midnight!! I must get to bed. Keith
Keith Watson <kpwatson@ukfsn.org> wrote:
[...] How MJR et. al. manage to do all that they do for ALUG is completely beyond me.
Personally, I don't sleep much and I write a fraction of it off as marketing, which has worked so far. ;-) I want to do more, but I just keep getting more work to do... hopefully that says it's worthwhile?
someone on the list will feel sufficiently inspired to do something [...]
I think we need a group to be sufficiently inspired to help that someone too and that has been harder to do. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ jabber://slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ Thought: "Changeset algebra is really difficult."
participants (7)
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Adam Bower -
Colin Hards -
James Green -
John Woodard -
Keith Watson -
Kirsten Naylor -
MJ Ray