main July 2003

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[Alug]Announce digest, Vol 2 #9 - 2 msgs
by announce-request＠lists.alug.org.uk 15 Jul '03

15 Jul '03

Send Announce mailing list submissions to announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to announce-request(a)lists.alug.org.uk You can reach the person managing the list at announce-admin(a)lists.alug.org.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Announce digest..." --------------.--------------------------------------------.------------ alug-announce | Newsletter of the Anglian Linux User Group | Weekly(ish) --------------'--------------------------------------------'------------ ** Please send articles for this letter to announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk ** *** Please send replies to main(a)lists.alug.org.uk, not announce... *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Today's Topics: 1. Fwd: [arch-users] GNU, doc foo, short-term plans, hacking suggestions, money (MJ Ray) 2. LOCAL: ALUG, Norwich, Sunday 20 June (MJ Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:52:02 +0100 (BST) From: mjr(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk (MJ Ray) Subject: [Alug Announce]Fwd: [arch-users] GNU, doc foo, short-term plans, hacking suggestions, money Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:04:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Lord <lord(a)emf.net> Subject: [arch-users] GNU, doc foo, short-term plans, hacking suggestions, money arch has officially been dubbed "GNU arch". That means, among other things, that it will gain a proper web page at gnu.org (which I'll have to maintain), will be distributed from ftp.gnu.org, and can count on a tiny bit of friendly inter-project mediation with other GNU projects by the FSF. This is a good thing, IMO, but it does mean I have some work to do getting the gnu.org infrastructure for arch up to snuff. There's an option here to set up some gnu-mediated mailing lists (and a requirement to direct bug-arch somewhere, as well). In other news, James Blackwell has offered, and I've accepted the offer, that he will take over maintenance of the tutorial. It will take a few days to fully transfer control over those sources to him. Thank you James! Contributions to the tutorial have been increasingly noticeably. As an _experiment_, I'm thinking of taking a (mostly, not entirely) hands-off approach to its future evolution. Debian aside, when there start to be several, substantial, independent contributors to documentation, as opposed to just one central copyright owner -- there the oft rehearsed "problems" with the GFDL can actually turn from "problems" to problems. (At least that's _my_ twisted view of the matter.) Therefore, as part of the process of transferring the docs to jblack, while I'm still the sole copyright holder, I'll be changing the license to something less problematic -- less controversial. (Asuffield, heads up: Undoubtedly as a side effect, the docs will become Debian friendly. Y'all are still wrong, though. :-) My short term plans: *) Crunch through the patch queue. *) Establish branches for the "big three" new features I'm ideally supposed to be working on. (I'll be using these branches as a vehical to experiment by-hand with what auto-patch-factoring features might do). *) Set-up infrastructure for GNU arch releases. *) Make the next round of releases. *) Hopefully, then, return to work on the "big three" new features (=tagging-method generalizations, inode-signature optimization, partial commits). My sense of priorities has shifted slightly, lately. Roughly, in terms of (extra-economic) demand: =tagging-method / partial commits / inode-signature. Hacking suggestions: Relative to history, anyway, patches are pouring in for things like: simple bug fixes, CLI improvements, help message improvements. These are all great, thanks, and more are welcome. A big open area, easy to do, hence not among my priorities: expand the set of callouts-to-hooks and start to build a library of ready-made hook implementations. I've given some suggestions (e.g., magic-mirrors, magic-revlibs). Maybe these suggestions aren't interesting enough to be "itchy" to people -- but some of the arch-users discussion traffic suggests otherwise. Money: There's a couple of promising developments _on_the_horizon_. Nothing that will make me rich or anything -- but enough to keep me eating and pay utilities, mostly, with some regularity. But it's _on_the_horizon_ -- not real yet. And while I'm good for the next 5 business days --- that's about it. So, as usual, "when the hat comes round! :-)" (and, more interestingly, if you are at a business -- have you considered the commercial offers mentioned at (http:) arch.quackerhead.com/~lord and regexps.srparish.net/www?) Regards. Thanks, all, for all the recent patches. Doing my best to catch up. Yadda Yadda Yadda.... -t https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=lord%40emf.net&item_name=support+for… and lord(a)emf.net for www.moneybookers.com payments. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> To: announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk, peterboro(a)mailman.lug.org.uk, clug(a)cambridge-lug.org Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 03:36:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Alug Announce]LOCAL: ALUG, Norwich, Sunday 20 June [1]ALUG [2]Map Meeting 2003.8 : Norwich: The Royal British Legion Hall, Aylsham Road, Norwich 20th July 2003 Plan for the meeting Roughly, as follows: We will meet up from 2pm onwards for anyone interested in GNU/Linux. The room is immediately to your left as you enter the bar and is known as 'the TV room'. If you are bringing any equipment that requires mains power bring an extension lead as there seem to be very few electrical sockets. How to get there For directions, please see [3]the venue information page. People at the meeting If you will also be coming to this meeting, please try to say so on the mailing list, so we can be prepared for the numbers! Equipment Equipment is brought at your own risk. We strongly suggest that you tag or label your kit. No known thefts have occurred at our meetings, but there is ample scope for going home with the wrong cables, etc. Be sure to bring all appropriate power cables etc. An extra extension lead will also be a good idea. So far, for this meeting, we know of: Syd Norwich area co-ordinator. Morphix CDs. Name badges and signs. MJR A small fluffy penguin to sit on the table, so that you can find us. Discussion If you want to discuss this meeting, please [4]use the mailing list. [5]Back to the meetings index * Destinations 1. [6]Join ALUG 2. [7]FAQ 3. [8]Meetings * Local LUGs 1. [9]Peterborough 2. [10]Cambridge * Recent Donors 1. [11]PHP4Hosting 2. [12]Black Cat Networks 3. [13]Martyn Drake 4. [14]Turo Technology LLP You may think I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one [15]UK LUGs References 1. http://www.alug.org.uk/ 2. http://www.alug.org.uk/ 3. http://www.alug.org.uk/venues/nrbl.html 4. http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main 5. http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/ 6. http://www.alug.org.uk/background/contacts.html 7. http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?AlugFaq 8. http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/2003/ 9. http://www.peterboro.lug.org.uk/ 10. http://www.cambridge-lug.org/ 11. http://www.php4hosting.co.uk/ 12. http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ 13. http://www.drake.org.uk/ 14. http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ 15. http://www.lug.org.uk/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Announce mailing list Announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce End of Announce Digest

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[Alug]Reason for joining
by Tim Sanders 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

We are in the process of replacing DOS with Suse Linux and FreeBSD for some of our in-house applications (using the compiler Flagship). We have been using a consultant to do a lot of the operating system configuration, which has been successful so far. It would be better to improve our own skills too, and we hope this user group will help us do that.

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[Alug]Elmswell, 17th August.
by Robert Tillyard 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

I can get Elmswell for 17th August. I'll get the projector set-up to show the DVD. I think we can seat about thirty people in front of the screen. Regards, Rob.

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[Alug](no subject)
by Colin Hards 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

>>No one has commented on the spec of these machines . . . >pentium and above is acceptable, if you are doing gui >things then pentium 133 . . . Good. I hadn't intended to go below Pentium level. If I take on holding a small stock of kit then it will have to be organised - a published list of the items held, date, model etc., otherwise this could get out of hand quickly. My plan was to get a small stock, then from time to time ask if anyone has newer kit, and progressively update as time went on. The old kit would either have to be dumped at my local tip, or given for free to some local group or charity. The whole operation would have to be cash free. Does that sound reasonable? The 'Computers for Africa' scheme has received a bit of criticism (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2989567.stm) and I think what they'd prefer is masses of similar machine when a large company upgrades. Nevertheless, I'll check it out when the time comes. Colin _________________________________________________________________ Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband

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[Alug]Linux & education
by Colin Hards 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

First I would like to know if anyone reading this list has any affinity for the ideas I'm proposing. If no one here wants organised talks / lectures, which implies a slightly more formalised structure to ALUG meetings, then so be it. Unless there are others who would attend these and would enjoy them then clearly there is no little point anyone bothering further. OK, so here's a list of items I'd like some 'talks' on. And before anyone answers any of these with a simple "oh that's easy to answer, all you have to do is . . " please remember that this is not the same as a talk on a subject, where those listening can break in from time to time to get a point explained again or in a different way. Where at the end you can ask to go over an issue again, or perhaps have a further chat with the speaker. Mail lists like these are great but only can cover certain types of queries well. A beginners Linux course / talks perhaps some of the following could be covered. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) At any one time, in the Windows world there is really only one OS and one desktop. In the Linux world there are many dozens. A breakdown of what's available, which is better for certain tasks, what differences there are between them and covering which issues are significant to beginners. 2) How does Linux differ from Windows. Is this important? (Only a very little politics, I mean in broad operational tasks) 3) Do all Linux flavours use the same disk operating system? How does this compare to FAT & NTFS etc. 4) Linux flavours - is it best to stick to one, better to run more than one for different tasks etc. 5) Given we do not want to become system administrators, and are home users, discuss "what" we need to learn to (1) get started, (2) progress to a moderate level of expertise. i.e. at what point is a knowledge of command line commands absolutely necessary - if it is. 6) A beginner's lecture on what Linux is, how it differs from Unix, if the difference between Linux variants is important or not. Can you load a Unix program on a Linux system if the need arose? 7) A run down of the Linux directory structure - where programs are, where your data should go. What goes in the other areas. What we can mess with. What we shouldn't. 8) How to manage the system / how to handle backups. Is there a built in backup program, if not discuss 3rd party options. 9) How to install programs. How to delete a program. How to upgrade a program. What's and when to use a binary/source/rmp/deb install? 10) How to flatten a hard disk, if I want to try out a different version of Linux. 11) After installing a new or second hard disk - how to fdisk / format (windows terms I'm afraid) once it's installed. Learn which files can be moved to the new disk, which can't, or doesn't it matter? 12) An in depth of how 3rd party programs are installed. How to do it, how to set them up, etc. E.g. some seem allied to Red Hat - if they are, can they still be loaded and run in another's Linux version etc. 13) Show us the different desktops - KDE, Gnome & others etc., with a discussion about their differences. Discuss whether its useful to have different desktops installed for different functions. 14) Discuss simple console line commands. Do we really need these? What can they do that an equivalent software pop up window can't? 15) Explain what X windows is. (I think this is what it was called.) 16) How to open multiple windows, that reopen where they were opened before. Is this a problem with my version of Linux, or a KDE issue, or what? Last OS I used that worked properly was OS/2. 17) How to set up an old PC as a firewall / email handling box on a simple home network. 18) How to install fonts. Xandros seems poor here - maybe that's only Xandros. Software demonstrations : ------------------------- 1) Open Office - well why not? By someone who knows the similarities / differences, and can demo a few interesting advanced features. 2) A look at other options for word processor. Vi is often mentioned but is said to be complex. Is this so? 3) Apache - yes I'd like to have and run a server at home to simulate an ISP, with ancillary software integrated. A simple look at all this would be interesting. 4) Demo of Windows applications running on Linux boxes. So terrible? 5) MySQL - A number of web sites seems to use it, a basic starter would be good. Is it a good GP database for storing home user info on? 6) PHP - often allied with MySQL. Another basic starter, and good to demo what it can and can't do. Does this sound like a full time college course? Possibly, but covering just a few topics would be a start. I've hastily made this list not with the intention of asking ALUG to cover them all - obviously impossible, but there must be ALUG members reading this who know a piece of Linux software well and who would be happy to share their knowledge for a short period to beginners, and perhaps others in the group would be interested as well. ~~~~~~~ Adam >Why can you not arrange a series of lectures? If >you take care of the organising bits that only leaves >you to find some people willing to talk. Er, with that suggestion, what else is there left to do? No, if this has to happen it surely has to happen as a group exercise led preferably by the current ALUG organisers, or if not by a number of interested people - or not at all. In any case it would be difficult to start something like this against the background of disapproval that seems to be present. I'm willing to do my bit, but to simply off-load the creation of a series of talks onto a beginner, and ask me to find and organise all the speakers is not really on is it? One of the points of the Alug group is surely that over the years advanced Linux users will get know one another, and a little of what they do. Those currently running the group are correct to cajole the rest of us for being inactive. As I said I'm willing to help. But other than my home town I cannot reasonably be expected to publicise any talks further afield. Once an event is confirmed, I'm happy to create a web page to publicise it - for the organisers to add to the ALUG site. >>That's what I'm doing - asking for them. >The way you asked was to say that the meetings >were not worthwhile and say that Alug was not >doing enough. What I said was "I've been to four of five ALUG meetings and to *me* they're a waste of time." I was not saying they were not worthwhile to others. Over time the number that attend these meeting will show how this is viewed. As to ALUG not doing enough, I am of course trying to produce constructive criticism here. I doubt the group will be damaged by reading my comments. If enough agree, then the group will move in a certain direction. If they don't, well things can continue as now. >That is not a very good way to get on the right side >of people, a much more tactful way of doing it would >be to say something along the lines of . . . Please let's not reduce this to a review of words used. I intended to open this topic up to see if other felt the same. If I don't state what I think, the debate is pointless. >If you try and start the program you could arrange all >of the above, the only thing you need is some willing >volunteers (or victims) ;) to do the training. Joking or not, I'm saddened if anyone contributing their knowledge and skills to others who wish to learn should see it in this light. I certainly do not want to impose an unpleasant task on anyone. It's peoples free time after all, and it really has to start with their volunteering. >Again I think this is a chicken and egg scenario, >people don't want to be bothered sorting this kind >of thing out without people asking. You could try >and find 9 more people willing to pay for a days >introduction and then ask here for people willing to >do it. I think this is the wrong way round. This may be valid in a company setting - where you want to train a group - so you approach someone to do it and set it up in house. My intention here was to see if anyone in the group just happened to be a trainer, who from time to time conducted courses in this region, and who would be interested in helping the group. Once you have a face in the slot, and a willingness to tackle a subject, then you can try publicising it to see if there's interest. That's the chicken and egg from my perspective. Also once you get into this realm of paying for something then it needs even more pre-planning and needs good advance notice etc. Hence college courses I suppose. Unfortunately a commercial training project also suffers from the problem that it's less easy to persuaded shops & businesses to publicise your talks with leaflets if they feel that they're being used to surreptitiously advertise a commercial project for free. I'm sorry you seem to be rather against this idea and do not find any value in it. Unless a number of others come forward to express a positive endorsement to these ideas, it shows I'm clearly out of step with the group. _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

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[Alug]17th August Syleham meeting cancelled, we need a new venue!
by Adam Bower 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

Hi all, Can we have a volunteer for hosting the August meeting a little noise was made about this but nothing seems to have come from it. One other thing is that we have two meetings pages currently, both containing slightly different information. I say we either drop one, or turn one into "previous meetings" and the other into "current/future meetings" (contrib area) does anyone want to make these changes? Or will I be doing it this weekend? Adam PS depending on if i get holiday, I should make the next Norwich evening meeting :) -- jabberid = quinophex(a)jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem

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[Alug]ALUG and computers
by Colin Hards 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

>>The best solution would be for the next speaker to collect >>the machines after an earlier group meeting, but if this is not possible >>then I'd be happy to deliver them (let's say Norfolk) at a convenient >>time to the home of speaker. I could also store a few machines in >>between whiles if this was necessary. ... >I think you've put your finger on the important thing which >is having someone who's able to store the stuff and >co-ordinate its use. This could turn out to be a bit >time consuming for you, is that going to cause >you any problems in the longer term? I had in mind to offer to do this for the Norwich area. I think others should cover areas centred on their meeting place. Probably not a good idea to transport computers very long distances - old machines will probably fall apart if subjected to huge mileage in my car. So perhaps each area could have a small 'stock' of machines for local use. Also there's a limit as to how many can be got in one car for any trip, so this limits the number of machines. Smaller computers would help. I can store quite a few in the dry in my loft (which has easy access and is boarded) without to much strain. As to the time involved, I would estimate that a special trip might be needed once or twice a month at most, and also in taking kit to meetings. Sometimes these could be combined with work journeys. >Just a thought, how would having this kit in you home >(I'm presuming that that's where you'd be keeping it >meantime's) affect your household insurance cover? I'm assuming that if a machine is donated to ALUG for group use then essentially it has no value, either because it is not required by the owner / business any longer, or it's been replaced. I don't think anyone would want ALUG to start buying computers. Last time I enquired about computer values I was told by quite a number of people that it is generally considered that this gear devalues by a third annually. While not mathematically accurate anything over five years old has very little value and can be considered valueless.

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[Alug]Re: wireless
by Dan Beimborn 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

The best practices I've read lately involve getting rid of Mac address lockdown (which is spoofable) and instead relying on PPPOE, using RSA SecurID fobs, or using a free pppoe client + strong password encryption. Requiring individual user identification rather than knowledge of the key (which is crackable with widely known software) or mac addres (which is easy to spoof if you do a little sniffing in promiscuous mode) should get you further. I read a white paper on this somewhere with regards to setting up a wireless freenet in a rural part of America, where the chief concern was theft of service that would limit the ability of the operators to control bandwidth utilization. DB We are moving into larger offices later this month. The buildings we are moving out and and into are both regional development buildings so house multiple companies, hence we hide the AP, limit MACs, require a strong key which will change every month or so and have it on a NIC that's firewalled. Not much else we can think of on a practical level... Unless you guys can.

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[Alug]Weekly IRC reminder
by Neill Newman 14 Jul '03

14 Jul '03

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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[Alug]Norwich social meet last night
by Syd Hancock 13 Jul '03

13 Jul '03

I was very pleased to see a few people turn up as I wasn't sure at one time if there would be anyone else except myself and Mark :-) Paul, Keith, Tristan, Brett, Mark and myself gathered - we had two penguins on the table this time :-) Keith has printed some name badges and a laminated sign for meetings as well as donating various Morphix CDs which I will bring to the sunday meeting on the 20th July. Paul also gave away some installer CDs. It was another enjoyable social evening and it is good to be putting faces to names. For your diary - next evening social is the second thursday of August - August 14th, 8pm, at the Forum coffee bar again. Seems overall the best venue for these casual meets at present. Syd

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