July 2003 - main - earth.li

[Alug]Awareness
by Keith Watson 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

Like MJR, inspired by Colin's post, I have been thinking (not a pretty sight). One of the main issues with OSS is the general lack of awareness about it. To most people Windows is so ubiquitous that it is synonymous with the idea of a PC. So the question is how can we raise awareness of OSS software? Whatever it is has to be low cost (i.e. free or nearly free) but has to reach a fairly wide audience. I though the installfests a good idea in principal but I could never see how they could be implemented in a effective way. However 2 things have worked their way into my consciousness recently that may offer a solution. Knoppix and The Forum. I think Knoppix is a great way of showing non-technically minded people that a) there is another life after MS and b) that you don't have to know f*** all about operating systems to run GNU/Linux (in fact you don't even have to know that its called that!). I now always carry a Knoppix CD around with me and whenever someone asks me about this Linux thing I'm talking about I just find the nearest available PC (i.e. the owner doesn't mind my booting a CD off it) and run it up. Usually the response I get is initially "Is that it? So how is it deferent from the PC I normally use?" and then most people quite happily play around with the word-processor, spreadsheet, etc. with no problems (the next question is always "so where's the games?") Then after a while they ask "How much is this?" and that give me the chance to do the whole OSS spiel. Great thing about Knoppix is that 99 times in 100 it just boots and runs. No hardware issues or technical install problems. It just works. Just behind the coffee shop area in the Forum there is a small exhibition area. Several times now I've noticed local specialist groups using it. I occurs to me that it would be great if we could set up some Knoppix demos here. Perhaps over a weekend. I might be a good way to reach a more general public. There's all sorts of ideas floating (just mistyped that as fouling, Freudian slip?) round my head, so I'll stop there. I'll do some research and see if there's any way to get access to that area (costs, eligibility, etc.). Feedback please. Keith

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[Alug]Linux & education
by Colin Hards 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

Thanks to everyone who replied. >hangon, if you think Alug should be doing >this and doing that why are you >moaning about it and not doing anything? I can't do anything as I see myself as the pupil here. Do you mean I should be organising a venue? Alug seem to have this reasonable sorted, at least I've been to Syleham, Elmswell, King's Lynn, Norwich. Do you mean I should be badgering members to act as lecturers? I don't think I'm able to. I would hope that this request would encourage knowledgeable members (only you know if you have the knowledge and skills to do this) to come forward and perhaps volunteer to help train some beginners. >Their are many people here who are willing to to give talks etc. Great. If this is so please get together with one or other of the main Alug organisers to see if a program of instruction or lectures could be arranged. >but until someone asks for them they are not likely to do them That's what I'm doing - asking for them. I also saw some suggestions before Christmas on this mail list of the possibility of lecture or talks being started early this year. So I've waited to see if any of these came about. You're now debating if you can 'educate' students / school teachers? I'm asking on behalf of home users. >because of a lack of a perceived need and because they are >busy working on other things. Lack of perceived need? If no one else on this list supports me then you may be right. But that conclusion won't get Linux thriving in East Anglia will it? Members here have talked about crusading on behalf of Linux. I'm suggesting one possible avenue to further that. Busy working. Yes, we all are. Of course I'm not demanding anyone gets involved here who hasn't the time and expertise, and the willingness to pass on their knowledge. >The meetings are not really "disorganised" either, they are a >bunch of geeks/hackers/linux users/friends who like to meet up >every couple of months to talk about computers and other crap, in some ways >they are deliberatly disorganised as even >without a formal agenda we always end up locked out of the >venue standing around talking in the cold because we run out of time. Hey, I've got no problem with this. You've every right to do precisely what you want at these meetings. If as a group you outwardly appear too professional, then perhaps you frighten away many possibly interested members of the public. This may deter beginners, not encourage them. >If anyone comes to us with a specific need or >topic they need a talk on then we will try and >arrange something. I could quote you quite a few. But I'd rather ALUG set up a series of tutorials - maybe an hour at the beginning of a meeting - dedicated to a topic to help beginners. Or perhaps at another time if you want to keep the proceeding separate. Or would ten of the knowledgeable users give up a Saturday morning, or a couple of hours one evening, to get a series of lectures going? If you need subject suggestions, I'm happy to list a few. >If you find the meetings a waste of time why do >you come to them? It's fair to give everything a chance, and I have over more than six months. If I hadn't bothered to travel to any, you'd rightly criticise that. I'm merely saying that there seems little reason for me to attend any more of these gatherings unless I have a better idea in advance what can be got out of it. >Many of us also work directly with spreading the >word and the software, indeed all my previous jobs >have seen me spreading Linux and free software where >possible within companies and organisations. It seems to me that getting a Linux box, and a Linux OS with it or loaded onto it is the least of the problems. What is needed is help thereafter, using it to it's full potential. I'll leave the last few sections, as that probably won't help, but thanks Adam for your comments. ~~~~~~~~~ >Well, what can you do to help fix it? It sounds as though you have some >clear ideas about what you'd like to see happen at a meeting, . . . but >maybe it needs more planned activities and more >circulation. How to organise that? Well, perhaps the Alug web site would help here. If the user group organised a series of lectures, then it should be publicised as widely as possible. On the web site. A5 leaflets in computer stores if they're agreeable, leaflets to schools / colleges. Give us a file to download from the web site, we each print out 100 or so at home. Leave some with local computer businesses. We all live near to some of these. I'll walk about and deliver some in Dereham if ALUG has a firm plan and publishes it a few weeks / months in advance. If no one registers to book a place at these lectures, well cancel the whole idea and there's only a little wasted effort or expense, but probably on the plus side the benefit of getting some exercise. But you need a thought out viable program up front to start with. >All of this would welcome help, I think. Fair enough. You say you are fairly well organised administratively, and as I have little Linux experience or group knowledge it's difficult to see where I can help. But I appreciate that if I'm to benefit from your knowledge, then I must contribute. I'm happy to. I'm on the committee of two other 'pastime' societies, so feel I am repaying them for previous and current support. If I can help Alug I'm willing to give it a shot. ~~~~~~~~~~ >My point is that you get away with not learning >about a windows PC not because it works without >having to do so but that you can't anyway mostly. I'd quite happy to find fault with Windows and agree it's infuriating at times. Hence my toe in the water of Linux. I also agree that because we've grown up with Windows, knowledge about using the system has been acquired gradually over the years, just sufficient to do what we want. But a change over to Linux is not the same as an getting the next newer version of Windows. There's a lot of differences, and some training would get the show on the road much much quicker. The availability of this type of support would encourage a lot to think about Linux more seriously. >In further addition to this, if people do want specific >Linux training then there are people around on this >list who will do it for you, of course it will not be free, >and it will probably not be cheap. You're correct that there are quite a few expensive courses out there - I've seen £1675 for a 5 day Linux course. But I don't want to be a system administrator. I want to use a home computer. Companies who offer these courses know the individual isn't paying, his employer is, hence the price. There are also some quite modest ones - one I saw was in the order of £80 for a day's 'introduction to Linux' at Bromley college, and if my request peters out here then I'll probably think about that one. If anyone knows of courses closer to East Anglia not targeting system admins or costing many hundreds per day, then I'd be grateful if you can point me at them. I did a 6 month long one day a week course at Norwich City College a year ago. If they offered the same for Linux, I'd sign up. The course had about 20 others on it, so it's not unreasonable to suppose that a Linux and related subjects course might interest quite a few as well. But what's so terrible about paying for a course? I don't expect something for nothing. If you managed to get 10 beginners together for a day and each contributed a small fee, then you'd have quite a useful recompense even allowing for provision of computers and some travel expenses - or scale this for an evening etc. >It would be quite acceptable for someone to post >on the list and offer to pay or ask for a complete training course. This sounds like a 'one to one', and of course that would be expensive. So would a 'complete' course, and that implies decent training manuals and course notes, and would be time consuming for the trainer to set up and run. I'm thinking about a group, gathered around a computer or three, seeing a demo, taking notes themselves if they want to, maybe between 5 and 15 at a time? ~~~~~~~~~~ >In the past, I remember informal demos being some of >the most useful bits, but they're haphazard and unstructured. >I'm not suggesting anything really demanding, but a bit of >background material put up and some advance warning about >what will be there. Yes, great. I'd go for that as well. Choose a piece of software, and give half an hour about the basics, then take a Q&A on it, or allow a bit of hands on. Sounds good. Again, I'm happy to suggest a few for the list. ~~~~~~~~~ >The best way to get more out of the meetings is to >get involved, post to the List or Wiki with >topics/talks/requests you would like to see at a >meeting and see if there are any members who are >willing to assist. I'll wait for further reaction to this reply first, but if a list of subjects is needed I'll post one. Most of this will be pretty obvious, but I hope I'm past the point where it bothers me too much to admit my ignorance. I hope others in a similar position or sharing this view will also post to this list. If they don't, then I will have to conclude what I'm after really isn't required - as has been suggested. My reason for raising this subject was the huge number of messages on this list about Microsoft overcharging for software. This topic then drifted onto how to educate / get schools into the Linux camp. I'm jumping onto this bandwagon to champion a similar approach for the public. If this is not your remit then I'll say no more. Colin _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

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[Alug]Anyone for a meet venue?
by Tony Dietrich 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

One of the minor frustrations for me as far as this group goes is the fact that most of the meets are north and west. Doing an hour's drive each way after work isn't something that appeals to me, especially if I've already been to a customer down in the Home Counties or up North that day :p So, following the adage 'if its worth doing, do it yourself' (:p) ... how many people would be interested in a meet in Ipswich/Felixstowe or the surrounding area? I live in Felixstowe, and have several local venues in mind (none of which I have investigated fully yet), but I'd be perfectly happy to look a bit further afield. But first I'd like a show of hands from people that would be interested in a meet in this area. Anyone? -- Tony Dietrich <td(a)transcc.co.uk> Transoft Computer Consultancy Ltd.

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Re: [Alug]Linux & education
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

Colin Hards wrote: >First I would like to know if anyone reading this list has any affinity for >the ideas I'm proposing. If no one here wants organised talks / lectures, >which implies a slightly more formalised structure to ALUG meetings, then so >be it. Unless there are others who would attend these and would enjoy them >then clearly there is no little point anyone bothering further. Colin - regarding what I said in a previous post about beginners v. gurus.....everyone in alug has something to learn, and all will benefit from any talks given, perhaps including the talker. We've long rattled on about giving talks and as I also said previously, they haven't happened simply because no-one has got around to organising a meeting structure. I usually find if there *has* been a talk I've missed it, as it was being given by what appeared to be a bunch of people chatting about something else while I was purloining some form of help or other for some box or other in the opposite side of the room. Re. Keith's post about ALUG members having a willing spirit but little time, perhaps rather than roll out a series of talks planned for such and such a meeting, we should take it one at a time? That way they won't fizzle out as soon as one of the talkers realises they can't make a meeting that had been planned months before, kind of thing. As for asking questions on list - I think I take the prize for that, certainly last year's, so fire away, you won't be the worst! Search the archives for proof! (Most people still seem to be on speaking terms with me...) Jenny

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[Alug]Norwich evening social meet this thursday 10th July
by Syd Hancock 10 Jul '03

10 Jul '03

As a general reminder: the Norwich evening socials are now held on the *second* thursday of the month at 8pm Specific reminder: next evening meeting in Norwich is this thursday, 10th July at 8pm. If you are coming please could you let myself or Mark know either by email or the list? Thanks. (And come anyway even if you don't let anyone know beforehand). I've not been able to book a venue for it so I suggest that we meet in the Forum again (which a lot of people liked anyway). Plus it's free if not many people turn up to share the costs of a hall :-) -------------------------------------------- I've put the subject line as 'social' meet to emphasise that these are really intended to be just that, a bit of chat and socialising, and not intended to replace the weekend meetings held across the region where people bring full kit, have installs etc. Does anyone really want to lug monitors etc around on a thursday evening? I did ask but there has not been much response yet to my queries :-) And kudos to Keith who started the ball rolling... Syd .

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[Alug]Diary anyone?
by Tony Dietrich 09 Jul '03

09 Jul '03

It occurred to me that one thing this group may benefit from is a web-accessible diary. I could roll one out for us, but my local systems are a little overloaded at present. If someone has some fast mysql and php enabled webspace they would like to donate (that I can access via a shell would be best) then I'd be happy to work on it .. I have a suitable php application on tap. -- Tony Dietrich <td(a)transcc.co.uk> Transoft Computer Consultancy Ltd.

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[Alug]Next Meeting
by John Seago 09 Jul '03

09 Jul '03

Where and when is this, I ask as I have a library book I wish to return, (without having to drive al the way to Cambridge to give it back to Adam, although I may be going that way soon). -- John Seago

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Re: [Alug]Diary anyone?
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 09 Jul '03

09 Jul '03

Tony Dietrich wrote: >It occurred to me that one thing this group may benefit from is a >web-accessible diary. > >I could roll one out for us, but my local systems are a little >overloaded at present. > >If someone has some fast mysql and php enabled webspace they would like >to donate (that I can access via a shell would be best) then I'd be >happy to work on it .. I have a suitable php application on tap. Excellent idea. I know Adam was hoping to get a box together for ALUG bits and bobs - any progress on this Adam? Jen

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[Alug]Linux friendly printers
by Edenyard 09 Jul '03

09 Jul '03

Jamie asked: > > Can anyone recommend a Linux friendly cheap colour inkjet printer? It also key > For what it's worth, I've been very pleased with the HP DJ930C (around £77 from Staples just over a year ago). Works a treat with Linux for Gimp and just ordinary printing too. I use the Turboprint driver system which seems to give very acceptable results for photographs - with the right paper, of course. Whatever you buy, take a long close look at the running costs - i.e., how much a new cartridge will cost and what you actually get for that. I see a big advantage of the HP system in the print head being renewed every time you change the cartridge. I had an Epson once where changing the caartridge simply renewed the ink supply. When the head failed, it would have cost about twice as much to renew as another printer cost. Also take a close look at how easy it'll be to get the right drivers (especially for quality output) working with Linux. I personally find the Linux Printing How-to the most unhelpful document I've ever seen - it lets the Linux side down completely. Hence the unprecedented step I took of actually paying £12 for a set of drivers that really work! There's bound to be a wide diversity of opinion here, so I'll duck now.... Cheers, Gerald.

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[Alug]Linux & education
by Colin Hards 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

I'm finally compelled to write to this mail group after starting this message numerous times over the months. Sorry to be critical, but I'm somewhat jaded reading about Linux on the desktop and whether it's ready or not, or in schools etc., or how to interest the masses. The question you should be asking is - is Linux ready for the public? I don't think so, and my criticism is that this Lug is not helping to change that. You talk as a group about going into schools and this is of course important. But worrying about the wording of letters or how to tackle the press is missing the point. These students possibly won't be in a position to decide what professional software they use for quite a few years, even if you do convert them - which you must. Who you should be concentrating on is Joe public - i.e. people like me. I can see Linux is coming, I've had a Xandros box for about 6 months, but I've only managed to transfer perhaps about 5% of my real work onto it, and do that work at about 50% efficiency compared to the same tasks on my other Win2000 box. I & Joe public need some actual training. So do students and their educational peers. Even the EDP computer press correspondent might be interested. And this is the crunch. I don't really want to have to learn about Linux. I want to use a linux based PC to do real work, not mess about with the OS. But I appreciate I must learn the basics. Once I do, other aspects will fall into place over time, just as we all learnt CP/M, DOS & Windows over the years. But it's that 'over the first hump' where help is needed. Well shouldn't I open a book and get stuck in? Yes, probably I should, but I'm reluctant to spend the time leaning about Linux, any more than I want to delve into the inner workings of MS Windows. And anyway you can't ask a book questions can you? There's no substitute to talking to or learning from someone with knowledge, face to face. So what's my point? I think LUGs should be concentrating 100% on education. If you want to stay as a group of professional enthusiasts meeting every so often, then fine. Rename yourselves APLUG. If you want your favoured OS to become universally popular, get out there and start passing on your knowledge. I've been to four of five ALUG meetings and to me they're a waste of time. They're disorganised, and have no focus or agenda, no advance billing of what's to occur. With one exception I don't think I've learnt anything practical from any of these meetings. MJR kindly sorted a software install problem I had, but if today I was faced with the same problem, then I wouldn't know how to fix it. What is needed here is not band aids for on-going software glitches, but a more thorough examination of what's going on to kick start us. Once I'm achieving something as easily on my Xandros system and I can under Windows, then I'm sure to tell friends and recommend Linux. I can't at the moment. _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

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