- main - earth.li

[ALUG] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 09:26:15AM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > > > > Do you know what a "sub-menu" is ? > > > Do you know how to organize information hierarchically ? > > > > > It's not for me to organise it surely. > > Who else do you expect to do it for you ? You don't seem to like the > default organization provided in your distro, but rather than do something > about it to customize your desk top you choose to bitch about it to the > list. > I don't want anyone to do it for me, I was just saying that menus aren't necessarily the answer. > > If I know the commands I can > > just as easily (and more quickly) type them in at the command line. > > OR you could learn how to customize menus/desktops and make it a "one click" > operation. > For commands that are very infrequently used (but vital) this is overkill to my mind. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

1 0

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 02:05:35PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > I'm now confused about what point you are trying to make. > > > > > I was simply saying that a menu with twenty or thirty entries is fine, > > and useful, but that one with hundreds of entries isn't useful. > > Do you know what a "sub-menu" is ? > Do you know how to organize information hierarchically ? > It's not for me to organise it surely. If I know the commands I can just as easily (and more quickly) type them in at the command line. > > But you don't need a menu entry for every possible command line you may ever > use. ... but where we came in was - 'how do you find that command you don't know about'. I am suggesting that menus don't really help as they (like icons) are pre-configured and can't cover all the possible commands (not command lines, I mean just the names of the utilities) that are available. What I do is to use 'man -k' when I can't remember what the command to do something is. It's *very* rarely that I will find what I want by searching through menus and just about never by using icons. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

2 1

Gooies an all...
by Bob Dove 29 Nov '05

29 Nov '05

Hi Guys, 1. Summary: GUIs are good if you want them, the command line is better if you know what you are doing. 2. Icons on the screen? Nah, folders with code names! (?) 3. 'Blind' touch typing a command line - or equally blind movement of a mouse cursor? (My problem is that my keyboard is dyslexic and I don't think you can run a spell check on a command line). Well that's how things should be. Consumer choice? Tory Blair seems to be somewhat chummy with BG (who to be fair is distributing some of his absolutely unspendable wealth on good works as opposed to poncing (am I allowed to say that?) holiday accommodation from people (who may or may not need favours or perhaps a title) in exchange for a contribution to 'charity.' Prudence and Charity seem to do well with our chums in 10 & 11. I'm a bit worried however about our nuclear submarines running on 'doze! What I think has to be taken into consideration is that when Joe Bloggs goes into his local 'puter shop on his first buy, inevitably he'll go away with the box with the spec that just covers what he said he wanted to do when he went into said shop (it's for Joe junior to do his homework) - which probably isn't what he really really wanted to do which is run Tomb Raider. But he will almost surely have a box with 'doze pre-loaded. And when he loads the software (apps) of his choice it will barely run - but in happy pointy-clicky ignorance he'll be happy 'til his HDD is absolutely full of 'recyclables' and 'temporary' internet files. Now I know you guys are different and if you are running hardware stores you'll possibly be loading Linux! I'm sure on an equal footing, a good sales person could train Joe to operate either 'doze or 'ux, but there isn't an equal footing or a level playing field. There's a dealer margin on 'doze - if it pre-installed, it still ain't free! I don't know if you guys do any test shopping? I used to wok for a retail chain and often would go into competitors shops to see if they were better salesmen than me and my crew. I still go into PC World and ask questions - which still bring uninformed answers. 'You don't need to know that - just point and click! Linux? What's that? We supply XP Home. We don't sell Macintosh!' However, I have seen boxed Linux in one stationary store - horrendous price. Well, 'it's complicated and the instruction manual is expensive!' Unless Joe develops an interest in alternative O/S - he will just never know there are alternatives. If he gets bitten, he may note that alongside the multitude of magazines on the rack in WH, there are a few Mac and Linux titles. he may even buy one and find the cover disk doesn't run in 'doze. I believe however there are other Euro governments who insist gov business is conducted in 'ux? So what's my point? Linux will not become the obvious and popular alternative to 'doze until your average sales person in the 'puter store can demonstrate that it is equal to 'doze in every aspect that a store browser (window shopper) can get touchy feely pointy clicky with display goods and see that it works. Nobody but nobody will go into your average 'puter store and start typing command lines (excepting you guys of course!) It won't become my replacement until I can run QuarkXPress (and I mean QuarkXPress 'cos it is an interchange format still) and Photoshop CS2. Both of which run beautifully from point and click icons on my desktop! I think that may be six-pennorth! Cheers, BD. NB: I have enjoyed the varied replies to this thread!

4 4

Pointy-clicky
by Bob Dove 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

Hi folks, Have I missed the point? Did Digital Research create the GUI in vain? (DR was before Gates, Jobs or Linus mind). Was the 'desktop' that graphic thingy on screen showing replicas of file folders you could point at with the mouse cursor and click click to open to find your files all in vain? I think not! If it is so bad, why do most Linux distros offer the GUI desktop? Surely booting your machine to view on screen some icons that by pointy-clicky gets you where you want to be to do what you want to do - even play with C++ if that is your wish. Why do it the hard way - even if you can do it the hard way? So it is purer computing - so what??? I suppose if you spend your day typing machine code you may not need the desktop that the 99.999% of computer users do. I can open a directory on a drive, navigate to a program folder, find the exe file or other trigger - I used to do it in CP/M and DOS but why type out a path when you can point and click? The icon is after all a short cut to where you want to be, it is in effect a virtual command line. I think it is the command line mindset that puts most people off Linux and locks 'em into 'doze. If Linux was perceived as 'doze but better and dare I say cheaper ('cos most of it is FREE) but as easy to use via pointy-clicky 'doze style 'desktops then I'm sure there'd be many many more users. Lets face it, most home computers have a form of doze pre-installed so the can switch on and point. They couldn't care two hoots how the magic of pointy-clicky works - just that it works for them. And then when it all falls apart, they call the guru in or go back to PC World. In most cases that's extra profit for some-one! Ain't I a cynic eh? Just my twopen'orth mind! BD.

7 10

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 01:18:12PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: main-bounces(a)lists.alug.org.uk [mailto:main- > > bounces(a)lists.alug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Chris Green > > Sent: 28 November 2005 13:04 > > To: 'ALUG' > > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47# > > > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:46:32PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a restaurant where the menu is a several hundred page book.... > > > > > > > > > Sounds like heaven to me, but I doubt that's what you intended ? > > > You need to think more about your analogies ;-) > > > > > You got the message! :-) > > Are you sure ? Your post read that you would prefere the version with NO > menu rather than the counter example you put up..... > > I'm now confused about what point you are trying to make. > I was simply saying that a menu with twenty or thirty entries is fine, and useful, but that one with hundreds of entries isn't useful. To cover all the possible commands available at the command line a menu system would have hundreds (thousands?) of entries. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

2 1

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47#
by Chris Green 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 12:46:32PM -0000, Peter Onion wrote: > > > > > Imagine a restaurant where the menu is a several hundred page book.... > > > Sounds like heaven to me, but I doubt that's what you intended ? > You need to think more about your analogies ;-) > You got the message! :-) I was going to write more (hence the ...) but I thought it was fairly obvious. -- Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence."

2 1

Re: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47
by Bob Dove 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

Hi Folks, Multitasking in 'doze (or any other O/S); err, doesn't this sort of clog up memory? When, if ever, minimising but leave running an app free up the memory? I am a heavy duty user of Photoshop, working mainly on 20+ mB files. I need to close down everything else when working or one image may (and its parts in cache or on scratch disk) just uses up all memory and I go into an involuntary reboot. Which is of course a real pain! I'm quite happy to have loads of shortcuts on my VDU virtual 'desktop' but don't allow for background running of other apps - even though 'doze frequently changes my prefs to suit itself. For instance, auto-hide task bar has to be reset daily, multiple windows that have been moved and sized via the very top left icon will revert to default. The dreaded MSM messenger 'service' keeps switching itself on again as does the auto-update routine. The desktop and pointy-clicky is fine, a computer that runs at the whim of BG isn't - hence my interest in Linux. However, having to type code on a command line to open OOo leaves me cold. Are you sure all this typing is not just to keep the Grockles in awe? Cheers, BD. ----- Original Message ----- From: <main-request(a)lists.alug.org.uk> To: <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 3:39 PM Subject: main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47 > Send main mailing list submissions to > main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > main-request(a)lists.alug.org.uk > > You can reach the person managing the list at > main-owner(a)lists.alug.org.uk > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of main digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Wayne Stallwood) > 2. USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) (Ten) > 3. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Anthony Anson) > 4. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Chris Green) > 5. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Chris Green) > 6. Re: USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) > (Wayne Stallwood) > 7. Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Chris Green) > 8. Re: Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox (Ian bell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:11:07 +0000 > From: Wayne Stallwood <ALUGlist(a)digimatic.plus.com> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <1133010667.12467.128.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 11:07 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > One thing that surprises me is how few Windows users use the multiple > > virtual 'desktops' that are freely available for windows as they are > > for Unix/Linux systems. I suspect it's the 'desktop' paradigm that > > makes this happen, having as many 'desktops' as you want and being > > able to go from one to another instantly just seems wrong if you're > > stuck in the rut of an office desktop. > > I think this is the same reason that most Windows users are still using > Internet Exploiter...they are either simply not aware of the options or > are scared that they may break something by installing such a utility. > > Also a lot of Windows users I know don't tend to multitask...they will > fullscreen one application and work on that, finish save their work and > close it...open something else. > > Actually that is an important difference between OS X, Linux and Windows > > OS X encourages you to leave stuff running even if you have finished > with it...Clicking the close icon simply minimises the application in > the dock (whilst leaving it running) > > With Linux I tend to leave lots of stuff running in various virtual > desktops. At the moment I see that I have left a Windows XP virtual > machine running on desktop 4, couple of terminal sessions on 2, XMMS is > sitting doing nothing on 3 and I am writing this email on 1 with > Evolution...there is also a Serial console open to the Debian installer > running on the Alpha server behind me and Firefox > > Windows tends to encourage (needs really) you to only have applications > open that you need. I find that if you have too much open then User > Interface slowdown and constant interruptions from dialogue boxes > stealing focus makes the system damn near unusable. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:04:13 +0000 > From: Ten <runlevelten(a)gmail.com> > Subject: [ALUG] USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) > To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > Message-ID: <200511261404.16520.runlevelten(a)gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > OK, this is doing my head in. On SuSE 9.2, which I support a few end-users on > around the place as part of my advocacy antics, there is a fairly well-known > problem with some USB mass storage devices. > > If anybody has personally surmounted this problem - or failing that has some > salient ideas about it - or failing that a shoulder to cry on - I'd be hugely > interested to hear about it. > > Now I've had USB dongles working in the past, but due to a bad memory module > hosing my file systems I've had to reinstall and don't have one of those to > check with, so I've no idea whether this is general or specific to the sony > device and suse. > > Issue is this. When plugging in a usb device that is supposed to have its sony > memory stick mounted as a USB mass storage device (specifically a cellphone) > the device is not mountable on the system, it is "offlined". See below. > > The modem device for the phone is detected and configured properly, just no > mass storage device. > > When booting into ubuntu and plugging in the device, everything goes > more-or-less swimmingly. > > I've tried switching to fstab as opposed to subfs, I've tried automatically or > manually mounting (as well as sync/not). > > Any attempt to mount the relevant device results in "not a block device" > errors - whereupon referring to messages reveals it's already been removed > from the system. > > Some log-type goodness: > > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: new full speed USB device using > address 4 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: Product: Sony Ericsson D750 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: Manufacturer: Sony Ericsson > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: usb 2-2: SerialNumber: 356576003337234_0 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c: Ignoring extra > header > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: cdc_acm 2-2:1.1: ttyACM0: USB ACM device > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c: Ignoring extra > header > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: cdc_acm 2-2:1.3: ttyACM1: USB ACM device > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: scsi1 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage > devices > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: Vendor: Sony Eri Model: Memory Stick > Rev: 0000 > Nov 18 23:00:44 amonhen kernel: Type: Direct-Access > ANSI SCSI revision: 02 > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: SCSI device sda: 248832 512-byte hdwr sectors > (127 MB) > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: sda: Write Protect is off > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: sda: Mode Sense: 00 6a 00 00 > Nov 18 23:00:45 amonhen kernel: sda: assuming drive cache: write through > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen smpppd[6159]: smpppd version 1.50 started > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen sshd[6205]: Server listening on :: port 22. > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: sda:<6>via82xx: Assuming DXS channels with > 48k fixed sample rate. > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: Please try dxs_support=1 or > dxs_support=4 option > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: and report if it works on your > machine. > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: ACPI: PCI interrupt 0000:00:11.5[C] -> GSI 5 > (level, low) -> IRQ 5 > Nov 18 23:00:46 amonhen kernel: PCI: Setting latency timer of device > 0000:00:11.5 to 64 > Nov 18 23:00:49 amonhen kernel: parport0: PC-style at 0x378 > [PCSPP,TRISTATE,EPP] > Nov 18 23:00:49 amonhen kernel: parport0: irq 7 detected > Nov 18 23:00:49 amonhen kernel: lp0: using parport0 (polling). > Nov 18 23:00:51 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6647]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM1 > Nov 18 23:00:51 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6655]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM0 > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6674]: remove tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM0 > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6677]: remove tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM1 > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[6705]: umount block > device /block/sda > Nov 18 23:00:52 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[6705]: remove /dev/sda > from fstab > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6810]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM1 > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/tty/50-visor.dev[6824]: add tty > device /class/tty/ttyACM0 > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/50-hwscan.dev[6869]: new block > device /block/sda > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen kernel: drivers/usb/serial/usb-serial.c: USB Serial > support registered for Generic > Nov 18 23:00:55 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[6884]: mount block > device /block/sda > Nov 18 23:00:58 amonhen kernel: Non-volatile memory driver v1.2 > Nov 18 23:01:00 amonhen kdm: :0[6926]: pam_unix2: session started for user > bcu1, service xdm-np > Nov 18 23:01:01 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[7128]: umount block > device /block/sda/sda1 > Nov 18 23:01:01 amonhen /etc/dev.d/block/51-subfs.dev[7128]: remove /dev/sda1 > from fstab > Nov 18 23:01:06 amonhen modprobe: FATAL: Error inserting sonypi > (/lib/modules/2.6.8-24-default/kernel/drivers/char/sonypi.ko): No such device > Nov 18 23:01:10 amonhen kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev fd0, sector 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi: Device offlined - not ready after error > recovery: host 1 channel 0 id 0 lun 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: SCSI error : <1 0 0 0> return code = 0x50000 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 248824 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 31103 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 31103 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: ldm_validate_partition_table(): Disk read > failed. > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: scsi1 (0:0): rejecting I/O to offline device > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: Buffer I/O error on device sda, logical block > 0 > Nov 18 23:01:45 amonhen kernel: unable to read partition table > > > Oh, also, I have an ati driver which I may tentatively install to get some > games going - at 50 odd MB it's a heavy old file for a dialup connection, so > if anyluggers have copies of ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run they can > provide me with a checksum for, warm fuzzy thanks would abound. :) > > Cheers, > > Ten. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:14:16 GMT > From: Anthony Anson <tony.anson(a)zetnet.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > Message-ID: <313030303230303843886DB873(a)zetnet.co.uk> > > The message <1133010667.12467.128.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> > from Wayne Stallwood <ALUGlist(a)digimatic.plus.com> contains these words: > > > On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 11:07 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > > One thing that surprises me is how few Windows users use the multiple > > > virtual 'desktops' that are freely available for windows as they are > > > for Unix/Linux systems. I suspect it's the 'desktop' paradigm that > > > makes this happen, having as many 'desktops' as you want and being > > > able to go from one to another instantly just seems wrong if you're > > > stuck in the rut of an office desktop. > > > I think this is the same reason that most Windows users are still using > > Internet Exploiter...they are either simply not aware of the options or > > are scared that they may break something by installing such a utility. > > All too many of them are quite unaware that there is any alternative. > May I boast that I have only ever used IE once (outside the system) some > time ago, and that was on a new installation, to go and get Opera. With > Opera, I got Firebird. Before that I was using Netscape. (Got as far as > N4...) > > > Also a lot of Windows users I know don't tend to multitask...they will > > fullscreen one application and work on that, finish save their work and > > close it...open something else. > > I used to, using 3.11, but my Win 2000 box often has half a dozen progs > running, especially if I'm manipulating images or writing html pages. > > > Actually that is an important difference between OS X, Linux and Windows > > > OS X encourages you to leave stuff running even if you have finished > > with it...Clicking the close icon simply minimises the application in > > the dock (whilst leaving it running) > > Never used that. > > > With Linux I tend to leave lots of stuff running in various virtual > > desktops. At the moment I see that I have left a Windows XP virtual > > machine running on desktop 4, couple of terminal sessions on 2, XMMS is > > sitting doing nothing on 3 and I am writing this email on 1 with > > Evolution...there is also a Serial console open to the Debian installer > > running on the Alpha server behind me and Firefox > > All I have ATM is the mail/news software, Nero and a couple of text > files. Writing wibbles on the Windows box I might have Explorer, > Notepad, Pagemill, Arachnophilia, Firefox, Opera, WS_FTP, Nero and > ZIMACS, as well as the two text documents I usually have there for > making notes on. > > > Windows tends to encourage (needs really) you to only have applications > > open that you need. I find that if you have too much open then User > > Interface slowdown and constant interruptions from dialogue boxes > > stealing focus makes the system damn near unusable. > > Not found that, though I do tend to close anything I'm not using, just > in case. It takes longer to save and close everything if the supply goes > on to the UPS... > > -- > Tony > http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:47:21 +0000 > From: Chris Green <chris(a)areti.co.uk> > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <20051126144721.GA6331(a)areti.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 10:46:33PM +0000, Ian bell wrote: > > Chris Green wrote: > > >On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 07:17:21PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote: > > > > > >>On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 13:11 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > >> > > >>>Desktops as such don't hide complexity, they just mask it with a > > >>>different complexity. A simple desktop may hide complexity but then > > >>>so may a simple window manager with a different paradigm, how about > > >>>TWM with a single xterm window on it? > > >> > > >> > > >>So are you against a GUI interface in general and the Desktop concept is > > >>just part of that paradigm ? > > >> > > > > > >No, I'm against the computer pretending that it's something it isn't. > > > > A computer is a tool, a very general purpose tool, a very flexible > > tool and a very programmeable tool. It's appearance can be anything > > its various users want it to be. And if some want it to be a GUI with > > a desktop then it can be. > > > Yes, but all the other possible approaches seem to be disappearing > and, as a result, many, many users are not well served. If the only > accessible idiom is a desktop then the user is the poorer. > > -- > Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) > > "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:52:02 +0000 > From: Chris Green <chris(a)areti.co.uk> > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <20051126145202.GB6331(a)areti.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 01:11:07PM +0000, Wayne Stallwood wrote: > > On Fri, 2005-11-25 at 11:07 +0000, Chris Green wrote: > > > One thing that surprises me is how few Windows users use the multiple > > > virtual 'desktops' that are freely available for windows as they are > > > for Unix/Linux systems. I suspect it's the 'desktop' paradigm that > > > makes this happen, having as many 'desktops' as you want and being > > > able to go from one to another instantly just seems wrong if you're > > > stuck in the rut of an office desktop. > > > > I think this is the same reason that most Windows users are still using > > Internet Exploiter...they are either simply not aware of the options or > > are scared that they may break something by installing such a utility. > > > > Also a lot of Windows users I know don't tend to multitask...they will > > fullscreen one application and work on that, finish save their work and > > close it...open something else. > > > Yes, I find that wierd too, the number of people who run everything > full screen. One of the basic powers of a GUI is multiple overlapping > (or maybe tiled) windows and many users aviod using it! > > > > Windows tends to encourage (needs really) you to only have applications > > open that you need. I find that if you have too much open then User > > Interface slowdown and constant interruptions from dialogue boxes > > stealing focus makes the system damn near unusable. > > > At home and at work my approach is to run a windows virtual multi-screen > environment with one of the screens dedicated to my Linux (or at work, > Solaris) desktop. Most of my work goes on in the Linux/Solaris desktop > but it's dead easy to flip over to one of the other screens if/when I > need to run something (other than the X server) under Windows. > > -- > Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) > > "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:52:40 +0000 > From: Wayne Stallwood <ALUGlist(a)digimatic.plus.com> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] USB Mass Storage woes (and > ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run checksum request) > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <1133016760.12467.149.camel(a)localhost.localdomain> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Sat, 2005-11-26 at 14:04 +0000, Ten wrote: > > OK, this is doing my head in. On SuSE 9.2, which I support a few end-users on > > around the place as part of my advocacy antics, there is a fairly well-known > > problem with some USB mass storage devices. > > > > If anybody has personally surmounted this problem - or failing that has some > > salient ideas about it - or failing that a shoulder to cry on - I'd be hugely > > interested to hear about it. > > Try comparing /drivers/usb/storage/unusual_devs.h in the kernel source > tree on your SuSE and Ubuntu systems. It may be that there is an entry > for that specific device in the later system that was not in the SuSE > kernel. > > I had similar problems with a Pentax Optio S camera where there was a > fix for the previous model but on the new version they had changed the > vendor id's > > > > > Oh, also, I have an ati driver which I may tentatively install to get some > > games going - at 50 odd MB it's a heavy old file for a dialup connection, so > > if anyluggers have copies of ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run they can > > provide me with a checksum for, warm fuzzy thanks would abound. :) > > > Md5 checksum as follows > > 11c881f1558439949d346ae184f9067a ati-driver-installer-8.16.20-i386.run > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 14:57:05 +0000 > From: Chris Green <chris(a)areti.co.uk> > Subject: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > Message-ID: <20051126145705.GC6331(a)areti.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2005 at 02:14:16PM +0000, Anthony Anson wrote: > > > With Linux I tend to leave lots of stuff running in various virtual > > > desktops. At the moment I see that I have left a Windows XP virtual > > > machine running on desktop 4, couple of terminal sessions on 2, XMMS is > > > sitting doing nothing on 3 and I am writing this email on 1 with > > > Evolution...there is also a Serial console open to the Debian installer > > > running on the Alpha server behind me and Firefox > > > > All I have ATM is the mail/news software, Nero and a couple of text > > files. Writing wibbles on the Windows box I might have Explorer, > > Notepad, Pagemill, Arachnophilia, Firefox, Opera, WS_FTP, Nero and > > ZIMACS, as well as the two text documents I usually have there for > > making notes on. > > > As I said earlier in the thread my tendency is to have a number of > rxvt (lightweight xterm) window running. I use mutt for mail in one > of them and tin for news in another. I have firefox running in a > screen of its own (with an rxvt window behind). The occasional other > application I need I tend to run by typing its name in a terminal > window. I have a GUI version of my editor (xvile) that I pop up for > program development etc. > > -- > Chris Green (chris(a)areti.co.uk) > > "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence." > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 15:40:01 +0000 > From: Ian bell <ianbell(a)ukfsn.org> > Subject: Re: [ALUG] Re: Re: Re: While I'm moaning about firefox > To: ALUG <main(a)lists.alug.org.uk> > Message-ID: <438881D1.6070500(a)ukfsn.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Chris Green wrote: > > >>> > >>>No, I'm against the computer pretending that it's something it isn't. > >> > >>A computer is a tool, a very general purpose tool, a very flexible > >>tool and a very programmeable tool. It's appearance can be anything > >>its various users want it to be. And if some want it to be a GUI with > >>a desktop then it can be. > >> > > > > Yes, but all the other possible approaches seem to be disappearing > > and, as a result, many, many users are not well served. If the only > > accessible idiom is a desktop then the user is the poorer. > > > > I see no evidance of that. The console is still available even under > windows and if anything, the number of GUI interfaces under Linux is > increasing. > > Ian > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > main(a)lists.alug.org.uk > http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/ > http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main > > > End of main Digest, Vol 5, Issue 47 > ***********************************

7 12

Re: While I'm moaning about firefox
by tom potts 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

Chris - you hate C++ because its powerful. And desktops hide complexity! Time to dig out that old machine code I think, and a few toggle switches for input - 8 enuf? ___________________________________________________________ WIN ONE OF THREE YAHOO! VESPAS - Enter now! - http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/features/competitions/vespa.html

8 42

Weekly IRC reminder
by Brett Parker 28 Nov '05

28 Nov '05

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. Historically, these used to be the only time a lot of us would be about, now the channel has some usual faces that are there most of the time (except at silly o'clock, when we might be sleeping, or on the second thursday of the month, where we might be drinking in the Reindeer), so don't feel limited to visit during this time, come visit us when ever you feel like it! The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include xchat, irssi and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://www.irssi.org/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

1 0

pointy clicky
by Peter 27 Nov '05

27 Nov '05

On Sunday 27 Nov 2005 13:12, main-request(a)lists.alug.org.uk wrote: > However, having to type code on a command line to open > OOo leaves me cold. Are you sure all this typing is not just to keep the > Grockles in awe? Use OO every day, and never once started it from the command line. But that's just a naive user talking. On Mandriva. Lot to be said for Mandriva for naive users. Just works. Well, there was a bit of a problem with 10.1 and 10.2 installing on some systems. But 2005 and 2006 are ok Better than Suse. Easier than Debian to manage, though harder to keep up to date. Give it a go, and you can pretend terminal windows don't exist. Except maybe for setting permissions. Get "How Linux Works" by Brian Ward. Very nice how-to book for us naive users. Peter

1 0