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[Alug]re: Linux for *everyone*
by James Edward John Taylor 08 Aug '03

08 Aug '03

Long windy email which took me a while to type and then probably dosnt make much sense: Brief Summary: I dont believe Open Source software has to be userfriendly. I feel **VERY** strongly that the programmer has the right to be "free" in their programming and make non-user friendly interfaces IF THEY SO WISH, and that the dicussion over "they SHOULD" make userfriendly or "people should" is at basically wrong, because they are getting a free ride out of the software that the programmer probbably has a lot more better stuff to be doing. This is not a(nother) personal attack at Ben, but just the statement that his argument "I dont have time to learn something to do something like that because I have "more important" stuff to do" (where more important is whatever his or her REAL job, school work, etc) I am reversing to use against him. "Programmers dont have time to cope with the "whims" of those people who make a preference to do non-really harsh techinal stuff, becasue we have something "more important" to do" (where more important is whatever new toy we've just bought is). Did I stress that I feel VERY strongly about this. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And for the full bloated boring bit: I should first admit here and now that I winge when a config file is ... wierd or difficult to understand, and I also admit that I ask for help in it.... Knowing when to ask for help is always a brilliant trait in my opinion. Im going to assume here that I was in the IRC discussion. I think I was, I think I stormed out of it to Cambridge. Hell, I had to go... I think the discussion went along the lines of: ben: "theres no gui, this is too hard because i dont understand it/dont have time to understand it/dont want to understand it" (note this is not a dig at ben, all three options are perfectly acceptable. I dont understand the XWidget functions.... i dont want to understand them, so dont want to waste time learning them) us: "There isnt a function because no-ones written one... everyone who has needed one just learnt how to do it, and then couldnt bearsed to write a gui, becasue they could do it and didnt need a gui after that" ben: "but thats wrong" us: "no, its not, because we know how to do it"... and so on The fact that I had written another (command line) script which did this function, and tied it into a webpage was irrelavant, no one had "released" and "packaged" one for "simple" and "easy" installer. So perhaps we where being pigheaded. But that dosnt stop us being wrong. The title of this discussion is "Linux for everyone". But I disagree. Thats not what people mean in this discussion at all. The arguement is really about what do the people who are actually programming have to do, and what the people are gettng the free ride want them to do. Becasue we're not talking about Linux here. We where talking about Fluxbox. Flux box isnt linux. You dont need linux to run fluxbox. So perhaps im just nitpicking the title of the topic, but I dont think so, I think im nitpicking at OpenSource programmers and advogatoists in general. I support Open Source as is the solution to a lot of my problems. Im happy and proud to release the majority of my source code into the public domain, I really do like the idea of open specifications and industry wide standards that are kept to and maintained. But I dont like the idea that people can turn around and tell me that im doing something "wrong". If I want to pass data between two computers in a completly propietry way, then I should be allowed to, open source or not. What has that got to do with GUI? well its just another thing being "difficult" or should i really say "unknown". Thats freedom isnt it? Sure, you might say I have to have freedom to do things with connection and making it easy for people to connect, but perhaps I dont want to make life easier for you programmers. Perhaps my methods provide abetter service in terms of processor speed, or memory allocation or whatever argument I'm using. Im allowed to, its my program after all. And perhaps at this time, I cant expect people to conform to my propietry standards. But then again, perhaps I can, I can point to several case examples where a client turns round to us and says we'll offer you this data in an electronic fomat in this formatt "blat" and we have to parse it. Its either that or type it all in by hand (which is what we do before we set up the electronic link). We dont get any choice, we just get down and do it. - but we're techis. And thats what we're paid to do. Perhaps Open Source is just too policial. Perhaps you're stuck between a bunch of idealistics who would kill people who defie the GPL license and a bunch of programmers who just couldnt care less as long as you can use the code to solve your problem. At the end of the day. If my boss comes in and says "I need to do ... **THIS** then I will automatically look at how its done now, and how it works. If my program I write for him infringes a patent established four years ago, how would I know? Would I care? no. Nobody else would know about it, I wouldnt ever get into trouble unless I started distributing the code." You people who are sitting there saying "its hard to use, and therefore people wont use it, Do I care? No. I am not one of those people, I do not benifit by them using my code. if they WISH to use my code and they dont know how, then they cancontact me and I might help them, or they could pay a local person to install it for them and configure it. You dont do your own car servicing do you (ignore that comment those people in here that do (iDunno for starters))? And you guys are probably the techincal elite. Why expect non-techincal people who dont [want] to understand to be able to do it. Even if you give them a "gui". Its not my problem, i dont have to solve it. And thats what OS is all about isnt it. You solve your problems and release the fixes so other people dont have them. You dont go hunting out problems to solve. (this is only in a specific bug sense - all of us do go "hm i wonder if i can....", but we dont go "oh lets just see what the latest bug report for EVERY package is and then fix it"). Open Source does **NOT** have to be for everyone. Anyone suggesting that it should, completly, without reservation, dosnt have any idea of the scale of the system and should run back to the saftey of their management course. Sure, write your gui if you want. But noone should ever start going round saying "you have to write a gui otherwise im not going to use it" because we'll just say "... ouch im hurting inside, ... no really" Remember, we're effectivly getting a free ride - **NOBODY** will stop you making a GUI for anything. **ALL** of us will support you. **MOST** of us would help you. We'll be happy to help solve the little naggliy bugs like "why dosnt this bit of regex work" and soon. HEll, if you start, you'll probably be the momentum to get a couple of us to finish it off for you, which is what you really want. I for one, will not be changing the way I program to be more userfriendly. I dont write user friendly programs. I dont really write programs which have users to interface into. Installing them are long ardious tasks. 99.9% of the population or more will not benifit from it. But for a user, any user, who dosnt *WANT* and i emphasise want here because if you did want to understand you wouldnt *MIND* can start an arugment that its not userfriendly. Sure, the guy who wrote it could ask for comments, or ask for ideas for improvements, but for people to comelong and say "no, thats pants becuase it is difficult" is (in my opinion) selfrighteous and pigheaded.

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[Alug]Next meet
by Daniel Silverstone 07 Aug '03

07 Aug '03

Hello all, Just thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Daniel, and I'm a Linux User. </aa> Just wondering when the next meeting was likely to be, and where. I noticed that the previous meets seemed to centre around the more easterly parts of Anglia; is that where most of the ALUG members are? If not, how about trying a meet somewhere closer to Cambridge or Ely? Just an idea. D. -- Daniel Silverstone http://www.digital-scurf.org/ Hostmaster, Webmaster, and Chief Code Wibbler Digital-Scurf Unlimited GPG Public key available from keyring.debian.org KeyId: 20687895 Your domestic life may be harmonious.

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Re: [Alug]zaurus for dummies
by BenE 07 Aug '03

07 Aug '03

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Lee Momtahan wrote: > Owen, > > I have never done this. Most linux kernels (on the PC) need to be > recompiled adding in the ethernet over USB driver, so quite a > non-trivial operation. > > The main page on this is > http://www.ruault.com/Zaurus/ethernet-over-usb-howto.html > > Lee. > kernel 2.4.21 include the drivers as standard, which I've just installed. Haven't tried them out yet though, thats a friday night job I think. Especially since I need to install qtopia-desktop on my LFS partition (I have it on my suse partition. Hopefully it only needs qt to run, although I have a sneaking suspicion it needs some KDE files too. Oh, joy). BenE --------------------------------- Love is all I bring, in me crass t-shirt 'n' ting

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[Alug]Alug meeting Norwich sunday 28th September
by Syd Hancock 07 Aug '03

07 Aug '03

Provisional plan for the next Norwich ALUG sunday meeting: September 28th, 2pm at the British Legion Hall, Aylsham Road, Norwich. Full details etc nearer the time. Regards Syd

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[Alug]Announce digest, Vol 2 #10 - 1 msg
by announce-request＠lists.alug.org.uk 07 Aug '03

07 Aug '03

Send Announce mailing list submissions to announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to announce-request(a)lists.alug.org.uk You can reach the person managing the list at announce-admin(a)lists.alug.org.uk When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Announce digest..." --------------.--------------------------------------------.------------ alug-announce | Newsletter of the Anglian Linux User Group | Weekly(ish) --------------'--------------------------------------------'------------ ** Please send articles for this letter to announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk ** *** Please send replies to main(a)lists.alug.org.uk, not announce... *** ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Today's Topics: 1. LOCAL: GNU/Linux/Norwich Thu 14 Aug (MJ Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> To: announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:22:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Alug Announce]LOCAL: GNU/Linux/Norwich Thu 14 Aug [1]ALUG [2]Map Meeting 2003.9: Norwich: The Forum bar 14 August 2003 Plan for the meeting Roughly, as follows: We will meet up from 8pm onwards for an informal evening get-together for anyone interested in GNU/Linux. NB: This venue is not suitable for anything more than portable equipment (laptops, palmtops, etc). How to get there For directions, please see [3]the venue information page. People at the meeting If you will be coming to this meeting, please try to say so on the mailing list, so we can be prepared for the numbers! Equipment Equipment is brought at your own risk. We strongly suggest that you tag or label your kit. No known thefts have occurred at our meetings, but there is ample scope for going home with the wrong cables, etc. Be sure to bring all appropriate power cables etc. An extra extension lead will also be a good idea. Discussion If you want to discuss this meeting, please [4]use the mailing list. [5]Back to the meetings index * Destinations 1. [6]Join ALUG 2. [7]FAQ 3. [8]Meetings * Local LUGs 1. [9]Peterborough 2. [10]Cambridge * Recent Donors 1. [11]PHP4Hosting 2. [12]Black Cat Networks 3. [13]Martyn Drake 4. [14]Turo Technology LLP 5. [15]O'Reilly UK You may think I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one [16]UK LUGs References 1. http://www.alug.org.uk/ 2. http://www.alug.org.uk/ 3. http://www.alug.org.uk/venues/forum.html 4. http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/main 5. http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/ 6. http://www.alug.org.uk/background/contacts.html 7. http://www.alug.org.uk/contrib/?AlugFaq 8. http://www.alug.org.uk/meetings/2003/ 9. http://www.peterboro.lug.org.uk/ 10. http://www.cambridge-lug.org/ 11. http://www.php4hosting.co.uk/ 12. http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ 13. http://www.drake.org.uk/ 14. http://www.ttllp.co.uk/ 15. http://www.oreilly.co.uk/ 16. http://www.lug.org.uk/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Announce mailing list Announce(a)lists.alug.org.uk http://lists.alug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/announce End of Announce Digest

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[Alug][Safari UG promo for your groups]
by abower＠thebowery.co.uk 06 Aug '03

06 Aug '03

Hi all, I got this email from Josette about a week ago, (Josette is the UK marketing/user group liason person at O'Reilly) I figure that we should at least be crediting O'Reilly on the Alug website due to them giving us books for the library, so shall we stick up a banner for them also? Also who is interested in being the Safari reviewer if we go ahead with this? (I know that I am :)) I propose that we draw lots or something if more than one person wants to be the reviewer (note the free years subscription to Safari if you do it!) Adam ----- Forwarded message from Josette Garcia ----- Hello User Group Leader, Due to the overwhelming success of our recent "Go On Safari" program, we have decided to offer all of you User Group leaders another chance to participate in this cool promotion for the O'Reilly Network Safari Bookshelf. And once again, Tim O'Reilly will be the grand prize. Here's how it works to "Go On Safari": 1-Post a Safari announcement Post a "Go On Safari" banner ad on your user group web site, and/or run an announcement for your members in a print or email newsletter or on your email discussion list. The banner ads are available at the Safari User Group Resource page at http://ug.oreilly.com/banners/safari (After you have completed this step, please send an email with the URL or copy of the Safari announcement to josette(a)oreilly.co.uk.) 2-Pick a reviewer A member of your user group (you or someone you designate) reviews Safari. That person will get a free one-year subscription if they publish a review of Safari within 60 days of opening their account. (It can be published in your newsletter, on your website or email list, or in another publication altogether; please send reviews to me.) Once you've chosen your Safari reviewer, please send me an email (josette(a)oreilly.co.uk), with the subject heading "Safari Subscription," listing your reviewer's name, address, email, and user group. If someone other than your reviewer should receive the banner ad or announcement text, please include that in your email. Your reviewer will receive a Safari Welcome email containing their user name and password within a week. 3-Have your members send in tips and tricks We also have an introductory program just for user group members http://www.oreilly.com/safari/ug. To enter, any of your members who sign up for our Safari 14-day free trial email (including the official reviewer) send comments on their experiences, or tips and tricks for how they used Safari (it only needs to be 2 sentences long, but it may be longer) to safari_talk(a)oreilly.com. ***Submitters should include your UG name in their email.*** 4-Winners are picked weekly Every week someone will be chosen from the tips or comments submitted to receive fun stuff from O'Reilly (T-shirts, books, other surprises). If a member of your user group is selected, your group receives free gifts, too. Whatever the individual member receives, your UG will get one, too, to give away at your next meeting, or use however you see fit. Recipients--and their comments--will be announced in the User Group Newsletter. 5-Win a visit from Tim O'Reilly One lucky group will be selected for an on-site speaking visit from our fearless leader, Tim O'Reilly (http://tim.oreilly.com/). About the O'Reilly Network Safari Bookshelf: If you're not yet familiar with the O'Reilly Network Safari Bookshelf, it's worth a look. With Safari, you can access over 1,000 technical books from the top technical book publishers--O'Reilly (of course), Pearson, and Microsoft Press. There is an extremely cool search capability that allows you to search through all 1,000+ books for the answer you need--or even code samples--in minutes. Check it out at: http://safari.oreilly.com/ We're looking forward to hearing what you think of the O'Reilly Network Safari Bookshelf Thanks, # # # Josette Garcia PR/Marketing Manager O'Reilly UK Limited 4 Castle Street Farnham GU9 7HS UK Tel: +44 (0)1252 711776 Fax: +44 (0)1252 734211 www.oreilly.co.uk ----- End forwarded message ----- -- jabberid = quinophex(a)jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem

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[Alug]Zaurus Famous !!!
by Wayne Stallwood 05 Aug '03

05 Aug '03

Just seen one in use on Spooks !!! Was really impressed on how they were managing to "download a diary" through the headphone socket, does anyone know where I can get the packages to do that, would be far more convenient that carrying round that bulky cradle. Ok, I'll turn the sarcasm off now.

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[Alug]zaurus for dummies
by BenE 04 Aug '03

04 Aug '03

Can anyone help please? I've just bought a zaurus SL-5500 and am trying to get it to sync with linux. I've got the qtopia desktop rpm to install but still can't access my PDA. Suse (haven't got rpm installed on my lfs system) seems to think the zaurus is a modem, but that doesn't seem right to me. Could someone explain the hardware side of the process please? How to set it up? Cheers, BenE --------------------------------- Love is all I bring, in me crass t-shirt 'n' ting

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[Alug]Advice re GCC 3.3 and Linux 2.4.20
by Keith Watson 04 Aug '03

04 Aug '03

After playing silly buggers with apt-get upgrade at the weekend I'm now running with Gnome 2.2 (which, apart from a few minor glitches, is running well and I quite like it :o) ). I also seen to have ended up with gcc 3.3 (was 2.95) which does worry me as it's not fully cleared for use with the Linux kernel source I use (2.4.20). I tried a kernel compile, which worked after I'd fixed 3 known issues but I'm a bit cagey about actually running the new kernel. Does anyone on the list run a Linux kernel compiled with gcc 3.3 and, if so, are there any problems? Regards, Keith ____________ No matter how many years you sit and meditate, you will never become anything special. Master Sawaki

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[Alug]Weekly IRC reminder
by Neill Newman 04 Aug '03

04 Aug '03

This is the automated ALUG IRC meeting reminder sent to remind you that there is an IRC meeting tonight (Monday) at 8.00pm. The meeting takes place on the irc server irc.alug.org.uk in the #alug channel. Most IRC clients should allow you to get there with the commands "/server irc.alug.org.uk" and "/join #alug". Popular IRC clients include tkirc, bitchx, xchat and EPIC on Unix, and Mirc under windows. Here are some links to help you get started with irc. Unix http://www.xchat.org/ http://freshmeat.net/ http://www.epicsol.org/ Windows http://www.mirc.com (loads of help with irc for newbies!)

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