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[Kevin Taylor <kevin@eala.uklinux.net>] [lugmaster] UK LUG News - start posting!
by MJ Ray 06 May '01

06 May '01

Am I becoming The Daily Spam or what? From: Kevin Taylor <kevin(a)eala.uklinux.net> Subject: UK LUG News - start posting! Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 21:49:17 +0100 I have finally gotten around to linking up to the news feed from thinkopen.co.uk (it used to be linuxuk.co.uk). The news section of lug.org.uk now pulls in all articles posted to thinkopen under the LUGS topic. So, instead of writing reports, etc, by hand (as I had done in the past) you are all invited to post any details of events, meetings, news, whatever you would like published, to thinkopen.co.uk (there is also a submit link from our lug.org.uk news page too). Have a look (although there is not too much present at the moment ...) by visting the news pages of lug.org.uk. (Does anyone want to start the ball rolling with a comment about their linuxday event for example?) As always, comments are invited. Kevin. -- MJR

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06 May '01

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Where history comes from.
by David Freeman 05 May '01

05 May '01

As many of you know the history is in the T-shirts, but this isn't really that relevent to what I was going to say, which was: BJ mentioned at the last meet we should get some T-shirts made. Which sounded like a bloody good idea. So I thought I would have aplay with some ideas. 1) Alug logo on back of T-shirt 2) as one but with ALUG below 3) as one but with ALUG in hex below 41 4C 55 47 4) as one but with ALUG in morse below .- -.- ..- --. 5) Tux on back with: a) ALUG in HEX 41 4c 55 47 b) ALUG in Binary 01000001 01001100 01010101 01000111 c) ALUG in Morse .- -.- ..- --. d) ALUG in borring text. ALUG What do people think? Suggestions please? Thanks D __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
by MJ Ray 04 May '01

04 May '01

Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> writes: > Sz - K&R brackets are the only way to go ;) GNU Coding Standards, damnit! Oh, ah, whoops. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
by MJ Ray 04 May '01

04 May '01

"Adrian F. Clark" <alien(a)essex.ac.uk> writes: > What XML does is allow the database developer to define the _content_ > of what will eventually become a web page using application-oriented > tags and without having to worry about the page's appearance. In *theory*, you don't worry about appearance for most of the time in LaTeX. As with HTML, reality bites. > [...] In principle (though I've never seen it done) XML could > produce LaTeX so that we could get typeset output that looks better > than what spews out of Netscape, which is definitely of the same > kind of abysmal quality as Word. Well, you can look at this two ways: firstly, there are LaTeX ways to produce XML and manipulate XML (I think it's xmltex, but that might be wrong); secondly, XML can be rendered to FOP and then to PDFs which aren't bad at all, especially combined with SVG. However, it all smacks of reinventing wheels again, doesn't it? > The advantage XML over (say) keyword-value pairs is that XML allows > the developer to build up a tree-like structure that can be parsed and > processed by a standard piece of software. Indeed, but S-expressions (lispish ones to the rest of you) never really caught on, did they? Once again, the lispers got it right 40 years before everyone else, but have nothing to show for it but the knowledge that they were right 40 years before... > Anyway, Neill is using lyx, not pukka LaTeX -- urghhhh! Eeek, using a non-free library to boot! Burn him at the viva! ;-) -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ...
by MJ Ray 04 May '01

04 May '01

jo(a)yee-ha.demon.co.uk writes: > May I point out FastTemplates? It's a PHP class that allows you to > completely separate content from code. Templating systems only fix half the problem. You still end up with your data interface layer smashed into your system logic, and your program code sat in servable files and repeatedly reinterpreted. Yes, you can overcome both of these, but why not start with a framework which has the bits in the right places? To me, PHP is only good for quick little web toys. Flame me now. -- MJR Mr Ray has emigrated to beyond that very very big mountain and is urgently seeking a supplier of asbestos underclothes.

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[Kevin Taylor <kevin.taylor@gmx.co.uk>] UK Organisation for Open Source software in education
by MJ Ray 04 May '01

04 May '01

spam4u Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:38:15 +0200 (MEST) From: Kevin Taylor <kevin.taylor(a)gmx.co.uk> Subject: UK Organisation for Open Source software in education The UK OSiE initiative is moving forward, and we are looking for organisations/vendors/schools/etc who are interested in the use of Open Source software in education to add themselves into our lists. Could you maybe forward this message to your LUGs, (if you think it appropriate) so that anyone involved with education knows about what we are up to ...? Interested people should have a browse through our developers site at: http://osie.sourceforge.net/ Thanks, Kevin (Northants LUG and OSiE) -- MJR

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Please Forgive me
by Earl Brannigan 04 May '01

04 May '01

Sorry everyone, just posted and included the entire previous digest. (Well I thought after being 'reprimanded' for the long signature I'd get my own back!!) ;o) Cheers Have a good weekend Earl

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ALUG Library tranche 2
by brodders＠cwcom.net 04 May '01

04 May '01

Ooookay. Thanks all! Many ideas, but 1st port of call has to be a server. Doesn't ALUG have a server connected to UEA's JANET? Isn't that what we'd want? Had a look at http://www.uklinux.net/membership/ Free MySQL / PostgreSQL / PHP /Perl is for account holders calling from a LoCall number (0845 ono). If you dial up via other ISP's you don't get the databases. Well you can for £25 a year. That's for a single account; don't know what uklinux would think of a group of people using 1 account. Looks useful though. Postgres seems to have more approval over MySQL. What's the reason behind this? Also, I hold no Postgres documentation. This will cramp my style as I've no net connection evenings. Anyone got some PostgreSQL books? Have been following up suggestions & stuff on web. Could use koha - could use a nice PHP+MySQL app MyOrgBook (http://www.it-firm.com). These can show solutions / be a source of ideas; personally would like to be creative rather then copy. NFIT! How is Zeus?? I see admin type roles as something to avoid; suspect we can't eliminate completely but do have some thoughts. ASSUMING we trust ALUG people who've been through some security protocol (is this a can of worms I see before me?) then we might assign permissions by context of what they want to do. E.g. current holder of a book has authority to return it or assign it to a requestor. If we gave this some thought might be able to do without the librarian role. See my ravings below. Want to minimise demands at client end (Java?). Who is expert to adjudicate on this? This all seems to nicely fall into the classic client / server duties ...Brett, are you volunteering to do the client / GUI side of things? Dave, need to talk more about this - what's the form for big posts on such stuff? I am peripatetic so don't have web/IRC to hand - days can pass before I get posts. Hm. Anyhow glue technology consensus seems: Postgres - Java / JDBC - Perl ALUGL Schema 0.1 is below - rip it to bits people! Why won't it work? Where is it cumbersome? It's fairly normalised - must it be more? Tricks to speed it up? Security considerations? Too complex? Something missing? [key things to look for - errors and omissions] Dave, I've not attempted to integrate your schema into this version. ALUG Library Schema 0.1 Item Table ================================================== Item_ID Primary key: Auto incrementing numeric Item_Type 1=book, 2=mass media, 3=hardware, 4=hat etc Title char 128 (name of item) ISBN 16 char (??) Publisher 128 char (manufacturer) Author 128 char (model) Edition 6 char Published date YYYY-MM (bought date) Return Mode 1=back to ALUG, 2=wanders, 3=back to owner Last Transaction => pointer to Tx Table.Tx_ID <Danger Will Robinson> Owned By => pointer to Person Table.Person.ID Description 8096 char or note field Condition Last Seen 1=new, 2=good, 3=poor, 4=scrap/discard Last Seen datestamp Entry Created datestamp Entry Updated datestamp Thus we can loan hats - or anything. They can return to ALUG always, the owner - or just wander about, person to person- more convenient that way. <Danger> Last Tx - not normal form & redundant but handy. Alas it turns a mostly read-only table into a read/write - I think it has to go, to minimise locks and write problems. Person Table ================================================== Person_ID Primary key: Auto incrementing numeric First Name 32 char Last Name 128 char Alias 32 char (alternative name) Password hmm. How to get this secure? How much security needed? Aka => pointer to Person Table.Person_ID (1st (last) entry is ZERO) Phone 16 char Email 32 char Entry Created datestamp (DO we need address info??) Aka is about name changes etc. using a linked list; old name is still on system. Deleting old names dangles inbound pointers. Tx Table i.e. Transaction Table =================================================== Tx_ID Primary key: Auto incrementing numeric Item_ID => pointer to Item Table.Item_ID Now With => pointer to Person Table.Person_ID Due Back YYYY-MM-DD Tx_Type 1=added to system, 2=borrowing, 3=discarded, 4=stocktake, 5=lost, 6=returned, 7=request Tx_Date datestamp Every transaction gets an entry. Due Back might be auto-set or agreed on the spot - even blank for long-term loan. Forms Needed ================================================== 1.1 Add Item 1.2 Edit Item 2.1 Add Person 2.2 Edit Person 3. New Transaction (loan, return, request, stocktake) With a little thought, we may be able to do without much admin. eg: (current borrower | owner ) has permission to create a Return or Loan. Anyone can Add Item. Owner only can Edit Item. Anyone can Add Person. Person only can Edit Person or Add Person as an Aka. Anyone can create a request. Need a proper state diagram showing permissions at each point; need to inspect this to see if any state gets painted into a corner. Queries ========================================== Where is Item? (= search for item) => links to Request & Loan Item transaction When does Item return? => links to Request Item transaction What has Person borrowed What has Person loaned out List all out List all in List all Items due back in next X days List overdues List Tx history Item, latest at top (could double as the search form) List Tx history Person (could double as the borrowings form) Auto-email for overdues & Person-has-requested-item-you-hold would be nice. ALUG would be created as a Person. Quick! Save it before it gets away! -Steve

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Re: ALUG Library
by Earl Brannigan 04 May '01

04 May '01

Hi all Time for a two-penneth, Postgres is great, use it in a commercial env works excellent. But for small functional goodie could be a bit of an overkill...? For knocking up quick web-content I have foudn Zope (www.zope.org) to be nothing short of Brilliant. Can speak to DB, execute perl, python other CGI, has user based security model, runs staight out of the box. gotta say I love it....... Regards Earl (Released under the Zope Public Liscence - bit like LGPL as far as I can tell.....but it is free as in beer if not as in speech anyway..) Cheers Earl On 03 May 2001 17:37, alug-admin(a)stu.uea.ac.uk [SMTP:alug-admin@stu.uea.ac.uk] wrote: > > Send alug mailing list submissions to > alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > alug-request(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > You can reach the person managing the list at > alug-admin(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of alug digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: ALUG Library ... (Andrew Savory) > 2. Re: ALUG Library ... (Andrew Savory) > 3. Re: ALUG Library ... (Neill Newman) > 4. Re: ALUG Library ... (Neill Newman) > 5. Re: ALUG Library ... (Neill Newman) > 6. Re: IP Traffic monitoring (Andrew Chandler) > 7. Re: ALUG Library ... (MJ Ray) > 8. Re: self intro (MJ Ray) > 9. Re: ALUG Library ... (David Freeman) > 10. Re: ALUG Library ... (David Freeman) > 11. one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (David Freeman) > 12. Language wars // was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (MJ Ray) > 13. Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (Mark Wilkinson) > 14. Re: ALUG Library ... (MJ Ray) > 15. Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... (David Freeman) > 16. Re: ALUG Library ... (David Freeman) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:07:59 +0100 > From: Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > Reply-To: Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> > > On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote: > > > Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL ;) Can I > > suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system > > that actually works such as PostgreSQL. > > > *sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this.... > > I agree with Brett. He has a good point. > > If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, > let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, > stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, > um, isn't. > > Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and > quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice > project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but > I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils > of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these? > > Anyway, enough with the random thoughts. Happy to help or advise if anyone > wants. > > > Andrew. > > -- > All views are my own, who else would want them? > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:11:04 +0100 > From: Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> > To: David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > Cc: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > Reply-To: Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> > > On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 15:24 -0700, David Freeman wrote: > > > XML != nice. HTML does the job fine. > > Depends what you're doing. HTML is wonderful as the final dressing before > it hits the user's web browser, but sucks for anything other than > that. Being obsessive linux hackers, I'd expect us to massively > overengineer a solution using XML and a publishing engine (AxKit if we're > using Apache/Perl, Cocoon if we're using Java?) so that we can access the > site using our browsers, phones, PDAs, sonic screwdrivers, divining > rods... > > > Andrew. > > -- > All views are my own, who else would want them? > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:18:59 +0100 > From: Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> > Organization: Entora Ltd > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > > Andrew Savory wrote: > > > > On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote: > > > > > Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL ;) Can I > > > suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database system > > > that actually works such as PostgreSQL. > > > > *sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this.... > > > > I agree with Brett. He has a good point. > > > > If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can do, > > let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, > > stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. MySQL, > > um, isn't. > > yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! hhmm > nice and resilient ;).. > Postgress gets my vote... > > > > > Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and > > quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a nice > > project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to me but > > I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the evils > > of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of these? > > Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... > although I have to admit that I like php ;)... > > Sz > > > > -- > Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:11:05 +0100 > From: Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> > Organization: Entora Ltd > To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > CC: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > > David Freeman wrote: > > > > > > > OK - it could be done as a java server process on the webserver/some > > > server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web > > > client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be well > > > in > > > the world... > > > > XML != nice. HTML does the job fine. > > > hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is very > good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant and > markup munged together, not nice!! > html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic > stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is worth > the effort... > > > > > > me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta stuff > > > before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java talking > > > to > > > CGIs). > > > > /me = C and Java apprentice programmer and obeyer of the KISS principle > > /me = C, Java, UML, OO, C++, Perl, PHP hacker.. I was taught OO by a > Grady Booch Phd student ;) so if you need a hand with the > design/implementation then give me a shout, > (I've been programming in Java, both commercially and academically, > since 1995 ;)... > > > > > Thanks > > > > D > > > > PS one of these days I will learn a proper language AKA Lisp and write > > some decent type programs. > > aarrgghhhh no, lisp is evil ;).. > *duck* > > Sz > > > -- > Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:14:00 +0100 > From: Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> > Organization: Entora Ltd > To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > CC: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > > David Freeman wrote: > > > > > > Exactly, If we make the system well it should work on any browser, even > > IE :o) > > > make sure you run any web pages through the w3 validator > (http://validator.w3.org/), > it is very very very usefull ;) > > Sz > > > > -- > Open source solutions at http://www.entora.co.uk/ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:37:20 +0100 > From: Andrew.Chandler(a)ft.com (Andrew Chandler) > Subject: Re: [Alug] IP Traffic monitoring > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > It's a pity you haven't access to the Cisco (I assme the router is Cisco?) > There's a nice command called "ip accounting". It will give you a table > of IP addresses and how much traffic they have sent. > > I occasionally use this with an Expect script to drag back a set of > network stats on a particular router. > > There are a number of non-intrusive methods too. We have some network > probes that tap into the leased line and monitor it externally. A more > expensive way of doing it though! > > Oh well just my 2 pence.... > > Andi > > > > > > > > > > "Mark Wilkinson" <mark(a)wiggis.com> on 02/05/2001 17:44:09 > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > cc: (bcc: Andrew Chandler/PSD/LONDON/FTI) > > Subject: Re: [Alug] IP Traffic monitoring > > > Hmm. That's where I was heading. The extract of the numbers is trivial and > would give me 99% of their traffic. > > I'll try to knock something up in Perl that whacks the data into a MySQL > database directly. Could be an interesting project. > > Cheers. > > M. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Raphael Mankin" <raph(a)panache.demon.co.uk> > To: "Mark Wilkinson" <mark(a)wiggis.com> > Cc: "alug" <alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk> > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:26 PM > Subject: RE: [Alug] IP Traffic monitoring > > > It's in the Apache access log. Everything that is sent and how big it is. > > Not perfect; it does not include the overhead of setting up connections, but > it is a start. > > > On 02-May-01 Mark Wilkinson wrote: > > Hi everyone. > > > > We are about to put a website online for an important customer but we want > > to monitor the bandwidth usage on a monthly basis and bill them > > accordingly. > > > > Has anyone any ideas on how to do IP Traffic monitoring? We don't have > > access to the stats on our primary router (basically our upstream won't > > give > > us the data for some reason) so I just wanted to put some kind of packet > > counter in.. > > > > Any ideas or package recommendations? I've looked at sourceforge but am > not > > sure of the products I'm finding there. I want a standalone product that > > doesn't look like a beast to install and dumps the data in a nice format > > for > > sticking into a database. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Mark W. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! > > ---------------------------------- > ... all the fallacious exactitude that > characterises a statistical table. > - Eric Partridge > E-Mail: Raphael Mankin <raph(a)panache.demon.co.uk> > Date: 02-May-01 > Time: 17:25:52 > ---------------------------------- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! > > > > > > ********************************************************************* > * Please visit the web site of the Financial Times at: * > * http://www.ft.com * > * * > * For UK personal finance, please visit http://www.ftyourmoney.com * > * * > * This E-Mail is intended for the use of the addressee only and may * > * contain confidential information. If you are not the intended * > * recipient, you are hereby notified that any use or dissemination * > * of this communication is strictly prohibited. * > * If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us * > * immediately then delete this E-Mail. > * * > * * > * postmaster(a)ft.com * > ********************************************************************* > > > > ********************************************************************* > * Please visit the web site of the Financial Times at: * > * http://www.ft.com * > * * > * For UK personal finance, please visit http://www.ftyourmoney.com * > * * > * This E-Mail is intended for the use of the addressee only and may * > * contain confidential information. If you are not the intended * > * recipient, you are hereby notified that any use or dissemination * > * of this communication is strictly prohibited. * > * If you receive this transmission in error, please notify us * > * immediately then delete this E-Mail. * * > * * > * postmaster(a)ft.com * > ********************************************************************* > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > To: Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> > Cc: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> > Organization: Cat-killingly bad > Date: 03 May 2001 11:40:21 +0100 > > Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> writes: > > > Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is nice and > > quick, > > Calling Perl nice is not something I can bring myself to do any more. > OK, it's possible to do some really well-crafted software in it, but > it's possible to create some monstrosities too and more people do the > latter. > > > [...] Ruby is always being mentioned to me but > > I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. > > That'll be me, then. With Ruby, it's not quite so critical, as you > just tweak your database object class. Even Perl's DBI isn't a > perfect solution, because the SQLs don't seem to quite be the same. > > > [...] Then there's the evils of the world such as PHP, Embperl, > > ASP.... can we steer clear of these? > > Please! While I can't call Perl nice, I won't program in PHP any more > beyond simple tasks because of the mental anguish it causes. > > -- > MJR > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > To: Joss Winn <joss(a)josswinn.org> > Cc: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] self intro > From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> > Organization: Cat-killingly bad > Date: 03 May 2001 11:35:00 +0100 > > Joss Winn <joss(a)josswinn.org> writes: > > > Well, before the list admin finds a new member of the list who lives > > in Japan [...] > > Oh, I don't think we'd notice another member from Japan that easily. > Tats, are you still out there? > > -- > MJR > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:02:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > Reply-To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > > --- Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> wrote: > > David Freeman wrote: > > > > OK - it could be done as a java server process on the > > webserver/some > > > > server somewhere, that way we could have a java client or a web > > > > client...the java server could spit/recieve XML and all could be > > well > > > > in > > > > the world... > > > > > > XML != nice. HTML does the job fine. > > > > hhmmm at the point of starting a flame I'd like to say that xml is > > very > > good at what it does, removes content from markup, html is contant > > and > > markup munged together, not nice!! > > html is ok for small/medium sites, but any decent large scale dynamic > > stuff is all xml with xslt->html translators, believe me, xml is > > worth > > the effort... > > XML has always appeared as a very complex thing which I haven't needed > to use for my very simple web site! Can any one recommend a good primer > for XML. > > > > > > > > me, sick, never (Oh, did I mention that I've done that sorta > > stuff > > > > before, perl talking to java is "fun", nearly as fun as java > > talking > > > > to > > > > CGIs). > > > > > > /me = C and Java apprentice programmer and obeyer of the KISS > > principle > > > > /me = C, Java, UML, OO, C++, Perl, PHP hacker.. I was taught OO by a > > Grady Booch Phd student ;) so if you need a hand with the > > design/implementation then give me a shout, > > (I've been programming in Java, both commercially and academically, > > since 1995 ;)... > > /me = self tought with far to many habits > > But I've just written my first kernel MODULE!!! and it work, which was > a big surprise > > > > Thanks > > > D > > > PS one of these days I will learn a proper language AKA Lisp and > > write > > > some decent type programs. > > > > aarrgghhhh no, lisp is evil ;).. > > *duck* > > Yes, it may be evil, but the darker side is very appealing. Just like > small talk seams appeally. A OO language where everything is an object, > it just makes sense, the way the world works is to pass messages > (instructions, sentences etc...) between objects (humans, animals, > objects etc...) > > ONe language I don't want to learn is C++. > > I like the quotes on the smalltalk website > > "I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have > C++ in mind." > - Alan Kay > > and my personally favourites > > "C++ : an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog" > - unknown > > "Claiming Java is easier than C++ is like saying that K2 is shorter > than Everest." > - Larry O'Brien (editor, Software Development) > > I Am amazed that there is such a holy war about programming languages, > particully the language people first learnt was there favourite and all > others are programmed as if they were using the first language. > > Thanks > > D > > > Sz > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:04:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > Reply-To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > > --- Andrew Savory <a.savory(a)btinternet.com> wrote: > > On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 15:24 -0700, David Freeman wrote: > > > > > XML != nice. HTML does the job fine. > > > > Depends what you're doing. HTML is wonderful as the final dressing > > before > > it hits the user's web browser, but sucks for anything other than > > that. Being obsessive linux hackers, I'd expect us to massively > > overengineer a solution using XML and a publishing engine (AxKit if > > we're > > using Apache/Perl, Cocoon if we're using Java?) so that we can access > > the > > site using our browsers, phones, PDAs, sonic screwdrivers, divining > > rods... > > ESR said that you can't call your self a hacker till other hackers call > you one, based on the above can I call my self a Hacker yet? > > So this would be what owen was saying about PHP on sunday about content > and markup being mixed together, Whilst I can see some of these evils, > doesn't CSS attempt to help? > > Thanks > > D > > > Andrew. > > > > -- > > All views are my own, who else would want them? > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 11 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:08:38 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > Reply-To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > Subject: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > > --- Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> wrote: > > Andrew Savory wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote: > > > > > > > Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL > > ;) Can I > > > > suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database > > system > > > > that actually works such as PostgreSQL. > > > > > > *sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this.... > > > > > > I agree with Brett. He has a good point. > > > > > > If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can > > do, > > > let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, > > > stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. > > MySQL, > > > um, isn't. > > > > yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! > > hhmm > > nice and resilient ;).. > > Postgress gets my vote... > > So we have the holywar about Which language to write it in, now we have > a second holy war over which RDBMS we use, couple this with the > XML/HTML war and wow! > > Can we get Vi vs EMacs in as well? > > > > > > > Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is > > nice and > > > quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a > > nice > > > project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to > > me but > > > I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the > > evils > > > of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of > > these? > > > > Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... > > although I have to admit that I like php ;)... > > Perl? I never quite got to grips with perl, I have tried but I just > don't understand it. What are its pros and cons? > > How about SmallTalk as the language? or maybe something even more > obscour, like ML or Prolog, will they do it? > > Thanks > > D > > > Sz > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 12 > To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > Cc: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Language wars // was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> > Organization: Cat-killingly bad > Date: 03 May 2001 17:19:48 +0100 > > David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > XML has always appeared as a very complex thing which I haven't needed > > to use for my very simple web site! Can any one recommend a good primer > > for XML. > > Hrm, I can't remember where I learnt about it. Probably from > webreference.com or similar. It's just like HTML but with consistency > and your own tags, really. > > > I Am amazed that there is such a holy war about programming languages, > > particully the language people first learnt was there favourite and all > > others are programmed as if they were using the first language. > > Depending on your world-view and the task at hand, I now firmly > believe that either everything is objects or everything is functions. > This is miles away from my first language (BASIC) or my second > (FORTH), but I tend to watch people and I've seen things that would > make your toes curl. I guess others on this list will have seen > worse, though. > > I don't really get into holy wars about language, though. I just try > to avoid engaging with ones I dislike unless absolutely necessary. I > have that luxury at the moment. > -- > MJR > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 13 > Reply-To: "Mark Wilkinson" <mark(a)wiggis.com> > From: "Mark Wilkinson" <mark(a)wiggis.com> > To: <David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com>, <alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:27:31 +0100 > charset="iso-8859-1" > > I think it best to program it in raw assembler and store the data on a 1.44 > floppy in EBCDIC. > > FWIW. > > Mark W. > > :-D > > PS. As per my original email on this. Why do people want to re-invent the > wheel? There's a package on freshmeat that could be taken, customised and > whacked on a linux box in say... a couple of hours. :-O Am I missing > something here? Is the objective a programming exercise or to get a library > system running? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Freeman" <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > To: <alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk> > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:08 PM > Subject: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > > > > --- Neill Newman <neill(a)entora.co.uk> wrote: > > Andrew Savory wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 02 May, 2001 at 21:51 +0100, Brett Parker wrote: > > > > > > > Agghhhhh! Not the omnipotent, and very nasty hack that is MySQL > > ;) Can I > > > > suggest that after "learning" from MySQL you try a real database > > system > > > > that actually works such as PostgreSQL. > > > > > > *sigh* I really hate it when I have to say this.... > > > > > > I agree with Brett. He has a good point. > > > > > > If we want to showcase the best of free software and what linux can > > do, > > > let's use Postgres eh? Postgres is a true ACID relational database, > > > stable, secure, full-featured and with extensive support for SQL92. > > MySQL, > > > um, isn't. > > > > yep, and until recently MySQL didn't have transaction support !!! > > hhmm > > nice and resilient ;).. > > Postgress gets my vote... > > So we have the holywar about Which language to write it in, now we have > a second holy war over which RDBMS we use, couple this with the > XML/HTML war and wow! > > Can we get Vi vs EMacs in as well? > > > > > > > Thoughts on what language to implement this in... Perl + DBI is > > nice and > > > quick, Java is a little much for the initial site but might be a > > nice > > > project for someone to add later. Ruby is always being mentioned to > > me but > > > I have no idea if it has DBI-like features or not. Then there's the > > evils > > > of the world such as PHP, Embperl, ASP.... can we steer clear of > > these? > > > > Perl/DBI sounds good to me.... > > although I have to admit that I like php ;)... > > Perl? I never quite got to grips with perl, I have tried but I just > don't understand it. What are its pros and cons? > > How about SmallTalk as the language? or maybe something even more > obscour, like ML or Prolog, will they do it? > > Thanks > > D > > > Sz > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 14 > To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > Cc: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > From: MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> > Organization: Cat-killingly bad > Date: 03 May 2001 17:30:02 +0100 > > David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > > So this would be what owen was saying about PHP on sunday about content > > and markup being mixed together, Whilst I can see some of these evils, > > doesn't CSS attempt to help? > > Oh, many of us will have a go at PHP for that. CSS doesn't really > help much, as you still have most of your program code stuffed in a > servable document rather than kept right away from your markup. There > are ways to remedy it a little, but it's better not to have the > problem there in the first place, eh? > -- > MJR > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:34:08 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > Reply-To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > Subject: Re: one thread, three holy wars was Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > > --- Mark Wilkinson <mark(a)wiggis.com> wrote: > > I think it best to program it in raw assembler and store the data on > > a 1.44 > > floppy in EBCDIC. > > I take it that in true style this will be 68000 series assembler :o) > > /me has learnt z80 assembler and will learn PIC assembler. > > > FWIW. > > > > Mark W. > > > > :-D > > > > PS. As per my original email on this. Why do people want to re-invent > > the > > wheel? There's a package on freshmeat that could be taken, customised > > and > > whacked on a linux box in say... a couple of hours. :-O Am I missing > > something here? Is the objective a programming exercise or to get a > > library > > system running? > > Shoot this man for being boring :o) you should know all projects start > as a debate about features, language and then decide if something else > does the job. > > Thanks > > D > > <snip> > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:35:47 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> > Reply-To: David_freeman(a)rocketmail.com > Subject: Re: [Alug] ALUG Library ... > To: alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > > > --- MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: > > David Freeman <david_freeman(a)rocketmail.com> writes: > > > > > So this would be what owen was saying about PHP on sunday about > > content > > > and markup being mixed together, Whilst I can see some of these > > evils, > > > doesn't CSS attempt to help? > > > > Oh, many of us will have a go at PHP for that. CSS doesn't really > > help much, as you still have most of your program code stuffed in a > > servable document rather than kept right away from your markup. > > There > > are ways to remedy it a little, but it's better not to have the > > problem there in the first place, eh? > > -- > > MJR > > OK then how about ASP? :o) > > </fx action="lights blue touch paper and retires to safe distance"> > > Thanks > > D > > PS Mark does the above Parse ok? > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > alug mailing list > alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > > > End of alug Digest

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