main January 2001

main@lists.alug.org.uk

36 participants
94 discussions

Re: Welcome To "alug"!
by Syd Hancock 23 Jan '01

23 Jan '01

Hello everybody Just a note to let you know that I have rejoined under a new email address - formerly compuserve. Am still waiting to find or make a few quiet hours for some install sessions. Will let you know how I get on. Best wishes Syd Brittany ----------------- New email address: syd(a)toufol.com

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ALUG-IRC 22 Jan
by MJ Ray 22 Jan '01

22 Jan '01

Another IRC meeting, the log follows. Today's highlights include: - much head-scratching about Rodney (John's recalcitrant box) - brief mentions of LinuxDay and the website - what we think of web applications and iMacs - other random chat. See you at the next one next Monday at 8pm! Hopefully by then we'll have a "short intro to IRC" on the website... IRC log started Mon Jan 22 19:53:57 2001 <slef> hah, that works <BigJohn> how you doing <slef> not too bad. Far too busy, though <slef> today was a total waste, though <BigJohn> I know the feeling <BigJohn> I've been trying to get lilo to work for about a week now and it's doing my head in <BigJohn> I've been attempting a dual boot mdk7.2 Win2k <slef> boot floppies still work, though? * paulr (paulr(a)modem-27.blue-spotted-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <paulr> hi all. <BigJohn> I installed lilo on my /boot partition and copied the first 512 bytes of the boot sector onto a floppy and loading it with the NT boot loader just get the dreded li... <BigJohn> evening Paul <BigJohn> boot floppy I made on install works but I think that has a kernel on it <slef> yeah, it does, but it's a temporary way out * miniman (jonathan(a)necryon.demon.co.uk) has joined #alug <miniman> hi <slef> hiya <BigJohn> yeah I know if I try a lilo floppy it just does the same li... its not seeing the kernel for some reason <BigJohn> Hi Jon <slef> who's rdc btw? <BigJohn> Oi rdc who are you :) <paulr> hi miniman. <rdc> Sorry distracted. <rdc> Thanks for the advice last week miniman. make mrproper sorted my probs out. <BigJohn> miniman: My lilo's still broke :( <miniman> ah cool <paulr> heh. * louisd (digfields(a)host213-1-140-237.btinternet.com) has joined #alug <louisd> Hi <paulr> hi louisd. * ashley (ashley(a)userhp69.uk.uudial.com) has joined #alug <BigJohn> Evening Ash <paulr> hi ash. busy tonight, huh? <ashley> hello everyone <BigJohn> My god! is this a record number of attendees? <louisd> What's the topic? <slef> yes, I think so <miniman> BigJohn: so it isn't able to find your kernel when using the boot floppy *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to BigJohn's dual boot doesn't <paulr> heh <miniman> with this many ppl in here we should be able to sort rodney out <ashley> this is the first irc meet i've attended in months <BigJohn> miniman: no doesn't find it boohoo *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to BigJohn's dual boot doesn't // <BigJohn> I installed lilo on my /boot partition ... loading it with the NT boot loader just get the dreded li... <paulr> BigJohn: you've tried everything in the howto, I assume <paulr> ? <BigJohn> cool I'm famous :) * iDunno (brett(a)modem-129.cuban-hogfish.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <BigJohn> yes just about I think <paulr> right. <iDunno> boo. <BigJohn> Hi Brett <slef> ISTR we bashed against this at a meeting <iDunno> "ooops" (topic) <iDunno> hi john. <iDunno> wonder what gave my name away... <paulr> um. BigJohn: is it lilo that you dd, or the kernel? <paulr> must be lilo, I guess. hmm. <iDunno> go on! copy the kernel to your boot sector... * iDunno looks at paul...muppet! [#alug] <BigJohn> used the mini how-to suggestion dd if=/dev/hdg1 of=/bootsect.lnx bs=512 count=1 <BigJohn> lilo installed on /dev/hdg1 <louisd> rdc : I got that 486 under my desk working today <louisd> I'm going to bung that network card back in the home machine and see if I can figure out networking the two <paulr> BigJohn: um. how many hard disks do you have BJ?! * iDunno screams at NS for being shite. [#alug] <iDunno> (and totally forgets where he was aiming his browser) <paulr> Neo the ever helpful ;) <paulr> um. iD, rather. <paulr> BigJohn: I've done that before, and it definately worked -- can't think what could be causing the problem :/ <iDunno> heh <paulr> iDunno: played with dual booting linux and NT recently? <BigJohn> hard disk count= 2 identicle disks hardware raid0 win2k and 1 disk for Linux <paulr> raid0? is that append, or mirror? <iDunno> paulr: not for 3 years. <louisd> Has anyone tried getting a dual boot linux/solaris box sorted? <slef> paulr: mirror <BigJohn> paulr: stripped <slef> uh * slef gets confused * BigJohn more confused <slef> 0 append, 1 mirror, 5 clever? <BigJohn> sounds about right <slef> paulr: append. <BigJohn> whish I had more disks for rais5 * iDunno loses track of everything and crawls into a whole <paulr> 10 == very nice. <iDunno> slef: 5 = hellously clever <paulr> (10 == mirrored raid 5, yes, really) <BigJohn> 15==even better <paulr> heh <paulr> there's a trend here.. <ashley> we have raid 5 at work. Very useful <iDunno> ouch! nice. <slef> iDunno: do you use a mobile phone...? (see tsw.org.uk...) <BigJohn> raid 5 is extreemly smart me thinks <ashley> BigJohn: yep, if a hard disk buries its head, we just swap in a spare <iDunno> slef: erm - yeah... * iDunno wombles to see <slef> paulr: is it you with the raid5 horror story? <paulr> Sun mainframes used to order their own disks when they shot a platter. <iDunno> slef: where am I looking? <BigJohn> rais 5 you can strip and mirror with only 3 disks iirc <ashley> paulr: cool <slef> iDunno: autism thread, today's additions <paulr> raid5 is parity striped. <iDunno> slef: you mean the "the first we knew of one of the disks dying was a new one arriving on the desk?" <paulr> raid4 is a PITA and is non-striped parity. <slef> iDunno: I mean the raid5 array that just lit a little red light so as not to worry anyone... no-one noticed before the 2nd disk failed. <paulr> RAID3 is a striped append, which is about as sensible as carrying a loaded magnum in your underwear. <BigJohn> its all far too clever for me anyhow :) <BigJohn> hehe <slef> paulr: I'm sure there's an obscene comment to be made about that. <iDunno> slef: nah - pauls is the disk arriving on desk one...afaik. <BigJohn> so any ideas on why lilo is giving me so much grief <slef> Your evil hard disk controllers again, probably. <BigJohn> but I've has it working on this setup before <BigJohn> linux can see the disks and the same problem occours id I bung the linux disk on a standard controller??? <slef> Well, you know I only ever have one possible solution to lilo problems. "linear" <BigJohn> what does that do? <slef> tells lilo to ignore the controller a bit <slef> I think <BigJohn> I'll give it a go do I need a compact statement in lilo.conf? <slef> why do you have the NT loader calling lilo anyway? <iDunno> slef: cos it don't work the other way. <iDunno> BigJohn: you seen the NT+Linux howto? <slef> Actually, it works fine. Lilo can call the NT loader & NT will <slef> never knows the difference. <BigJohn> cos thats what the documentation said for once I actually RTFM :) * slef is just websearching now... http://archive.lug.boulder.co.us/bymonth/1999.03/msg00336.html * paulr has signed off (Ping timeout for paulr[modem-27.blue-spotted-wrasse.dialup.pol.co.uk]) <BigJohn> so I do it the oter way around and call the NT loader from lilo? Won't that kill my NT boot setup? <iDunno> slef: can't find the bit you are on bout on tsw. <slef> iDunno: autism story... has a bit about mobile phones in the thread * paulr (paulr(a)modem-22.south-dakota.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <paulr> I love dialup, don't you? <iDunno> autism where? <slef> BigJohn: I don't know... I think you need to find someone actually using NT in a similar setup <slef> iDunno: "Internet Causes Autistic Society?" <slef> erk <slef> why's that link gone there? <BigJohn> I know this big bloke called John who was using a dual boot setup :) <iDunno> slef: tried there, can't see sfa. <iDunno> exactly. care to fix? <slef> iDunno: yes, but stop trying to be cute and just tell me the link is to the wrong story. * paulr has signed off (Ping timeout for paulr[modem-22.south-dakota.dialup.pol.co.uk]) <slef> hrm, so nothing more to do to John's booting? * paulr (paulr(a)modem-22.south-dakota.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <paulr> um. wtf? * paulr gently prods opn. <ashley> anyone know of a good open source content management for the web? <BigJohn> I'm going to give loading lilo on the master boot record a go better make some NT recovery disks though! <iDunno> slef: erm - yeah - it goes to the wrong story ;) *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to <ashley> anyone know of a good open source content management for the web? <slef> iDunno: no it doesn't <paulr> No, frankly. I could write you one. <iDunno> that's better :) <paulr> But that would rely on either: (a) a lot more CFT, or (b) a cheque for about 30 thou. <ashley> :) <slef> It depends what you're after. Some 2nd and 3rd generation web solutions can be made to work for limited things, but they're ultimately doomed. <paulr> slef: god. what gen is C2? <ashley> what type of backends do they use? Database, XML? <slef> ALUG is a strange mix of 1st generation with one eye on future-proofing. <slef> paulr: 4th, if it works. <paulr> slef: ahh. <slef> 1st = flat file and filestores; 2nd = CGI/PHP/etc ; 3rd = early appservers like Zope; 4th = yet to come <paulr> ashley: well, a cocoon based one could use whatever you want, really. I'd be tempted to use Tamino if you need it Big Stylee Industrial, and you have $$$. <slef> So ends slef's web history revisionism <slef> ashley: Databases almost all, sometimes XML databases. <paulr> (as a backend -- it's a database capagle of storing XML) <ashley> Where does Cocoon sit? Between the XML store and the presentation? <BigJohn> could some one tell me the command to make an app always start as root `which....? <paulr> ashley: Cocoon is an XML based application framework. <paulr> it's the glue that would let you build a CMS, basically (the CMS would run inside Cocoon) <ashley> paulr: So its a scripting language? <paulr> ashley: uh, not exactly, no. <paulr> it's a framework. 23 thousand lines worth of servlet, in reality. <slef> BigJohn: chmod u+s executable? <ashley> paulr: can you give example of use? <paulr> take a look at the (very out of date) http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/, with a particular eye on the Cocoon2 bit. <iDunno> Cocoon is a java application framework with a focus on converting anything to anything and running as a neato funky server under tomcat... <iDunno> (maybe?) <paulr> iDunno: um. eloquent. sortof. <iDunno> paulr: well...it does sorta, ish... <paulr> ashley: okay, imagine A.N.Other web application, say written in PHP <BigJohn> slef: cheers <paulr> now pull the look and feel of it away from the content, and away from the 'what appears on what page' (what I call presentation) <paulr> you end up with a 4/5 layered architecture: <slef> BigJohn: ought to use sudo or something instead <ashley> thanks paul. Will read later. <paulr> [EJB/Database] -> [Content selection/XSP] -> [Styling] -> [Client]. <iDunno> sudo rocks... <paulr> ashley: okay mate. give me a yell if you need any pointers. <iDunno> sudo + alias == good nice clean wholesome fun. <slef> [Huge program] -> [Upward motion] -> [Own backside] * slef runs <paulr> heh <slef> seriously, it's all good engineering and it'll be needed if e-commerce is ever going to work <paulr> indeed. <paulr> although a lot of other things will be too (direct interfacing to EFT etc etc etc) <slef> ok, can we move on quickly (I want to go eat dinner tonight)? <ashley> paulr: EFT? <paulr> heh. *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to LinuxDay <paulr> ashley: electronic funds transfer. <slef> well, I suck... not sorted the venue out yet <paulr> anyway, on with the show. <slef> Are we OK to sit around a table at Syleham and discuss it more then? <BigJohn> back shortly chaps * BigJohn (bj(a)modem-135.washington.dialup.pol.co.uk) has left #alug because () <paulr> works for me. <ashley> sounds good. <slef> paulr: enough about that. Will you be able to sit at a table and discuss LinuxDay? <paulr> slef: when is it? <paulr> (both) <slef> paulr: April 29th, Feb 4th (iirc) * bj (bj(a)modem-222.rhode-island.dialup.pol.co.uk) has joined #alug <slef> bj: Feb 4th? <paulr> okay. * paulr looks at palm <paulr> okay, where'd I put it? * slef looks at palm... ooh, my life line looks long <paulr> heh <slef> ok <paulr> sunday. hmm. is andrew going? <paulr> just going to buy a bottle of wine. back shortly. *** slef has changed the topic on channel #alug to Website -- email articles, designs, offers of help, crisp used monetary notes to markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk <slef> paulr: I don't think he's said yet <paulr> slef: okay. <bj> Feb 4th is confirmed 2:00 - 6:00 <slef> Anyone got stuff they want to write just a short bit about for the website? <iDunno> slef: erm - erm - is you giving andy and pauly a lift? <slef> Doesn't need to be a huge essay... I'm going to put a short one on setting fax up as a printer Real Soon Now <slef> iDunno: nfc <paulr> slef: want to content syndicate from my personal site when CFT allows be to write it?# <slef> iDunno: not if you are ;) <slef> paulr: will gleefully <slef> paulr: would quite like lots of material on the main site too, though <iDunno> heh. I'll stay home then <sulk /> *** bj is now known as BigJohn <iDunno> anyone written the mini IRC howto yet? <paulr> slef: about what? <paulr> ack. gone. back soon. <iDunno> he will get that wine, honest ;) <slef> iDunno: no... you writing it? <slef> http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/background/submissions.html IIRC * slef looks <iDunno> slef: erm - won't be untill at least thurs...got some major work to do. <BigJohn> anyone writen a lilo+NT on RODNEY how-to yet :) <slef> yes, that's right <slef> iDunno: that's fine... if we can get this out the door by Friday, I'll be happy <iDunno> slef: u in on weds btw? <ashley> what type of IRC article is needed? <slef> iDunno: yes, somehow (car semi-broken still) <slef> ashley: how to connect (probably console, gnome, KDE clients), where to find good help, etc. <iDunno> slef: k - might need you and adam for some serious stuff (like kit hunting and working out what we want from who and if they accept wassbobsthat I can't remeber) <slef> iDunno: OK, but can we talk about it elsewhere <ashley> slef: sorry, can't help. I'm talking via a mac at present (Ashley runs...) <iDunno> slef: yeah. <slef> ashley: sOK, but not the best Linux promotion, probably <iDunno> obviously the mac has deb on it... <slef> OK, I'm going to go get dinner... I'll log until 9pm so keep chatting about stuff if you want ;-) <ashley> I believe in separate tools for separate jobs - macs are good for somethings, Linux boxes are good for others... <iDunno> haven't found much that I can't do on a nux box...biggest let down s dtp...haven't found a nice dtp proggy yet. * louisd de-lurks to say cheerio <BigJohn> iMacs are great for posing on receptionists desks in advertising agencys * louisd (digfields(a)host213-1-140-237.btinternet.com) has left #alug because () <iDunno> eww. they're horrible..they're fugly...I don't like 'em ;) <ashley> BigJohn: my companies got one (marketing/web company) <ashley> My ibook gives me 5-6 hours battery time! <iDunno> my psion gives me 30-40 hours ;) <BigJohn> why do you see so many of them on the telly? cos telly producers think they look coo! personally I think they look like boiled sweets! <iDunno> right - anyways...offfffff! <iDunno> tata all. * iDunno has signed off (gone!) <ashley> Seen the new powerbook laptop. www.apple.com - 15", titanium case, etc. Of course you can't run much on it... <ashley> I'm off, see you later... -- MJR

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["Ms. Lene Jensen" <ljensen@redhat.com>] Job offering
by MJ Ray 22 Jan '01

22 Jan '01

For info... Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:42:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Ms. Lene Jensen" <ljensen(a)redhat.com> To: uklugs(a)lug.org.uk Subject: Job offering Hi, Red Hat is looking for a permanent trainer to join our team in Guildford. We want someone who knows Red Hat Linux well, or someone with Linux skills who wants to learn Red Hat Linux intimately. Of course, teaching skills is a must... Description Role: Technical Trainer Overview: To provide and oversee the delivery of the highest quality Red Hat Linux technical training to Red Hat customers and staff Responsibilities: · To teach technical training courses in Red Hat's portfolio · To teach public scheduled courses or onsite as required · To learn new courses as required and as appropriate to skillset · To ensure all course materials are up-to-date · To introduce into use any new or revised materials and ensure other instructors are made aware of the new or revised materials · To provide technical input for course customisation at customer meetings as required · To customise or develop materials for onsites or new courses as required · To identify instructor resources for short-notice or specialist courses as required · To ensure all UK classrooms are suitably equipped and maintained · To assist in planning the class schedule and allocate dates for classes and allocate classrooms at least 6 months in advance · To assist in allocating instructoe resources to classes at least 3 months ahead and maintain this schedule on a weekly basis · To assist in identifying and recruiting contract instructors as and when necessary to ensure an adequate supply of instructors is available · To feedback any recommendations for raising awareness of Red Hat's training provision · To interface with other Red Hat customer facing staff on customer training requirements: meetings, presentations, recommendations This role is based in the Red Hat Europe UK Training Centre, Guildford, Surrey, England. Most classes are run in Guildford however some European travel could be required. Required skills: Minimum of 2 years in a Technical training role, preferably Unix or Linux. Lene Jensen, Red Hat -- 10 Alan Turing Road | Tel: +441483734926 | Did you know Red Hat can offer Guildford | Fax: +441483574944 | extensive support packages, and GU2 7YF, UK | Mob: +447799844842 | has a Certification Programme? http://www.europe.redhat.com/training/ -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] IRC Chat
by MJ Ray 21 Jan '01

21 Jan '01

MJ Ray <markj(a)cloaked.freeserve.co.uk> writes: > Well, it depends what you're using... in the console, epic is probably > the best; graphically, X-Chat for Gnome and kvIRC for KDE, I think. Would someone like to write a brief introduction to IRC for the website? (Yes, Brett, if it's you, you can plug your script...) -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Linux and Music
by MJ Ray 21 Jan '01

21 Jan '01

Steve Fosdick <fozzy(a)pelvoux.demon.co.uk> writes: > I remember someone from the user group mentioning that he was > interested in music applications for Linux but despite looking back > over the last few months of mailing list archives I haven't discovered > who. I am, but more from sound tracking and editing. I've just built "Snd", which is a simple wave editor and mixer now ported to GTK and scriptable. It seems quite good so far, if not the easiest to use. Guess I ought to read the manual ;-) http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/snd/snd.html Sorry, so I can't really help with your other questions, other than suggesting http://www.linuxsound.at/ as a starting point. -- MJR

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Re: [Alug] Linux Help
by MJ Ray 21 Jan '01

21 Jan '01

kerin <kerin.westgate(a)virgin.net> writes: > I've just got my X-Chat to work, so i thought I'd see what was about, I > visited a Linux Help channel, and could not believe what i saw, [...] What "Linux Help channel"? I'd be amazed if linpeople ever did what you said. If you're on about #linux on IRCnet or EFNet, then they are most definitely *not* help channels, just places for linux freaks to hang out. Sometimes you can get help there, but it's not to be recommended. > Its the same as taking a car to a garage and the mechanic saying to > you go bye a book and repair it your self, No, it's the same as taking your broken car into the pub and people telling you to get a book or take it to the mechanic. ;-) > how can the Linux world expect to encourage new users with answers > like that, when with "Windows" all you have to do is look through > the yellow pages and you will find someone to help you despite all > the help pages that are written. Kerin Isn't the fact that there is such a huge trade in Windows support trying to tell you something about the difficulty of maintaining a largely undocumented and obfuscated system? I think so. Linux may not be as shiny and polished, but at least you can find out what it all does... just not from the pub. -- MJR

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Current workings of the list...
by Brett Parker 21 Jan '01

21 Jan '01

Mark, Just a quick question, why did you change the config of the list so that the reply-to stopped working? I liked it more the other way, any one else? Cheers, Brett

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Re: [Alug] Ann: ALUG 2001.1
by David Freeman 21 Jan '01

21 Jan '01

Is there anybody going from Ipswich/Martlesham who would be able to give a very small person and their computer a lift to syleham? I will be bringing my computer, atleast one 8 port hub and a few network leads/power. What facilities are at syleham? the �10, is that �10 each, or �10 between us all? Thanks D --- John Woodard <mail(a)johnwoodard.co.uk> wrote: > Here is the official announcement of the next ALUG meeting (ALUG > 2001.1) > which will be at Syleham Village Hall, Syleham, Suffolk on Sunday 4th > Feb > 2001 2:00 - 6:00 pm. > > Venue details at http://www.anglian.lug.org.uk/venues/syleham.html. > > The hall will cost us a tenner again, which is still pretty cheap, so > contributions on the day will be most welcome. > > Syleham and Wingfield Computer Club have said they will provide tea > and > coffee again which is nice of them. > > If you're coming post to the list with any suggestions or assistance > you > need. > > I'll post to relevant Usenet groups later any suggestions to which > ones that > are appropriate. I thought: > > uk.local.eastanglia > uk.comp.os.linux > linux.announce > > any others? > > Cheers, > BJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > alug, the Anglian Linux User Group list > Send list replies to alug(a)stu.uea.ac.uk > http://rabbit.stu.uea.ac.uk/cgi-bin/listinfo/alug > See the website for instructions on digest or unsub! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Re: [Alug] Linux Help
by David Freeman 21 Jan '01

21 Jan '01

--- Brett Parker <brettp(a)stu.uea.ac.uk> wrote: > On Sat, Jan 20, 2001 at 09:08:29PM +0000, kerin wrote: > > Hello > > I've just got my X-Chat to work, so i thought I'd see what was > about, I > > visited a Linux Help channel, and could not believe what i saw, a > guy > > came in asking for help with lilo he was having to use a boot disc > to > > start his linux, and asked if anyone could tell him how to install > lilo > > properly. What happened they totally ignored him and carried on > talking > > to (well taking the p*** out of some bloke that wanted to record > > something without a pc or tape deck), after i pointed out this chap > the > > reply was "there are hundreds or pages of help written", Its the > same as > > taking a car to a garage and the mechanic saying to you go bye a > book > > and repair it your self, how can the Linux world expect to > encourage new > > users with answers like that, when with "Windows" all you have to > do is > > look through the yellow pages and you will find someone to help you > > despite all the help pages that are written. > > Kerin > > yeah, I must admit that there is a lot of this behaviour, but, at the > same time, the documentation is *vast* and written *well* (as long as > you hit the right docs!). I have found some of them useful but only > if I > *really*, *really* can't find any documentation. If you are after > help > 99% of the time a newsgroup is easiest, if its targetted to a single > project try to see if they have there own IRC channel, I have used > this > approach quite a few times and have always found that it tends to > work. > The only real quarm I have with most of the "linux" irc channels is > that > they have a distinct nack of not accounting (at all) for "newbies" to > IRC, for example they do put a warning in the channels topic > (usually) > telling you to go read the FAQs, the reason for this is that 99% of > questions are answered nicely, and neatly in that FAQ. I know it > sounds > as if I'm defending them, and to some extent I suppose I am (I've > been > asked the same question repeatedly for like 6 hours, it gets > *very* annoying). > > Anyways, just my 2p worth, > > Brett As a relative newbie, I have found that the default reply on most groups/channels/lists is RTFM. and alot of the DOCS are great if you are very good with programming, understand compiler messages, and know unix very well, But not if you are a raw beginner. I have spent a week trying to install PHP and mysql on a machine and the only answer I ever got was RTFM, which isn't to helpful. Now whilst I agree that I most linux users are very willing to help (well those on this list are, see my PPP problems) alot are very closed to newbies. Just my 2p. D - <action=returns to trying to work out why SDL doesn't work> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/

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Linux Help
by kerin 20 Jan '01

20 Jan '01

Hello I've just got my X-Chat to work, so i thought I'd see what was about, I visited a Linux Help channel, and could not believe what i saw, a guy came in asking for help with lilo he was having to use a boot disc to start his linux, and asked if anyone could tell him how to install lilo properly. What happened they totally ignored him and carried on talking to (well taking the p*** out of some bloke that wanted to record something without a pc or tape deck), after i pointed out this chap the reply was "there are hundreds or pages of help written", Its the same as taking a car to a garage and the mechanic saying to you go bye a book and repair it your self, how can the Linux world expect to encourage new users with answers like that, when with "Windows" all you have to do is look through the yellow pages and you will find someone to help you despite all the help pages that are written. Kerin

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