Social September 2001

social@lists.alug.org.uk

9 participants
17 discussions

Re: [alug social] Me'n Mark blathering on
by MJ Ray 13 Sep '01

13 Sep '01

Alexis Lee <alexis(a)turton.com> writes: > Yes, but just what can you _do_ with a function except rewrite it or > call it? Function division and subtraction?!? If you like. Personally, I tend to use them in catch statements and other such things. Thunks are often handy, too. > All the rewriting you might want to do deals with a function as a piece > of text, and thus is better dealt with using existing string functions > plus eval(). Not quite as syntactically pretty, but it does mean you're > not duplicating the string library. Functions aren't strings! Think about manipulating their parse structure trees in a similar way to XSLT manipulating XML trees. No, I don't do that quite so much with variables, but macros are powerful tools. > > Yes, but the power comes if you don't do bad cohesion like that and > > you compose functions. I very rarely use begin... The time when I do > > is when I'm trying to interface with something procedural, such as a > > database. > hum, I understood you were meant to start your program with a begin. I > guess that's just a useful thing to do. No, I hardly ever use it. You only start your program with begin if you're making the popular mistake of writing procedural code, I think. My recent programs (in guile) consist of a use-modules line, then a single structure. -- MJR Thesis watch: 27% This is my personal web site =-> http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.alug.org.uk/ <-- This is the LUG I go to I work for this clever internet developer ==> http://www.luminas.co.uk/

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More Language Fun
by MJ Ray 13 Sep '01

13 Sep '01

It became apparent that, while Java is a good language for small applications, Java is not adequate to address the needs of current/future high-end applications, normally written in the much more powerful and versatile C/C++ languages. Java is slow, and requires all C/C++ applications to be completely rewritten. Often, applications ported from C/C++ to Java produces product at high cost. from http://ivm.sourceforge.net/icvmcpp.html So, Java is doomed now? -- MJR Thesis watch: 27% This is my personal web site =-> http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.alug.org.uk/ <-- This is the LUG I go to I work for this clever internet developer ==> http://www.luminas.co.uk/

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Re: Me'n Mark blathering on
by Alexis Lee 12 Sep '01

12 Sep '01

I'm moving to stick this on social. Quote from the news article I finally accessed: -- Suppose someone else used a language called Kwook and was trying to understand the benefit of first-class integers in C. He might point out that in Kwook, you can declare an integer like this: int four_hundred_eight = 408; Then whenever you need 408 to be the argument to a function, you just pass a pointer to the four_hundred_eight integer. If a function (say, addition), needs to return 408, just return the same pointer. How would you explain to the Kwook programmer that first-class integers are better? -- OK, I can see why it's a pain having to reference and dereference by hand. Does first-class mean that references are constructed autom., or that the thing can be copied? I see no point in copying a thing unless it can be altered. And if the point is to be able to create a copy of a function which can be altered, what's wrong with (let ((a "display") (b "hello")) (eval list(a " " b)) ) (or equivalent written in non-babytalk Scheme). MJ Ray wrote: > What is a Cache object? Yes, that's a philosophical question ;-) An object which holds references to other objects (held locally) to allow faster retrieval thereof. I'd guess you could do something funky to try and ensure that all those objects were held in RAM at all times. I think I see why you think it's a philosophical question, but the idea of recursive caches isn't all that interesting, so perhaps I missed it. > Yep, Guile is Scheme. And how many current browsers include JREs? > Isn't that a dying trend? Java is surely a language which has had its > day in the sun... now to see how it weathers a winter. True, Java isn't being shipped with IE6, it's an installable component. But I believe Mozilla still has it. And Java is apparently achieving massive growth in the embedded/handheld device markets. It has the massive advantage of being structural (or procedural or whatever I'm meant to call it... Cish), which is how most people learn to think when they're taught to program. Incidentally, if you do this: (begin (define function1 (lambda (x) (...))) (define function2 (lambda (x y) (...))) (function1 2.5) (display (function2 3.8 "Hello")) ) doesn't that look rather structural? I'm really struggling to get a grip on this functional stuff. > Huh? My personal site is entertainingly broken at the moment (try it > in moz), but I don't recall there being any non-relative internal URLs > on it, as that's a pet hate of mine. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ from your sig. Left nav bar. Moz 0.9.2. Alexis -- "You got what everyone gets. A lifetime." - Death (Sandman by Neil Gaiman) "I respect faith, but doubt is what gives you an education" - Wilson Mizner "It doesn't matter who you vote for. The government always gets in."

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Re: [Alug] Re: Me'n Mark blathering on
by MJ Ray 12 Sep '01

12 Sep '01

Alexis Lee <alexis(a)turton.com> writes: > I'm moving to stick this on social. Followed. > OK, I can see why it's a pain having to reference and dereference by > hand. Does first-class mean that references are constructed autom., or > that the thing can be copied? I see no point in copying a thing unless > it can be altered. It means that you can do whatever you like with it, just as any other variable, pretty much. > And if the point is to be able to create a copy of a function which can > be altered, what's wrong with > (let ((a "display") (b "hello")) > (eval list(a " " b)) > ) > (or equivalent written in non-babytalk Scheme). If you're using eval with user input, you have serious problems. > True, Java isn't being shipped with IE6, it's an installable component. But > I believe Mozilla still has it. No, it's a downloadable component in current moz. > And Java is apparently achieving massive > growth in the embedded/handheld device markets. "Massive growth" is probably apt given Java's famous memory requirements. Well, there are scheme interpreters too, and they're easier and smaller to create. > It has the massive advantage of being structural (or procedural or whatever > I'm meant to call it... Cish), which is how most people learn to think when > they're taught to program. Only in the UK and it doesn't make it right. > Incidentally, if you do this: > (begin (define function1 (lambda (x) (...))) > (define function2 (lambda (x y) (...))) > (function1 2.5) > (display (function2 3.8 "Hello")) > ) > doesn't that look rather structural? I'm really struggling to get a grip > on this functional stuff. Yes, but the power comes if you don't do bad cohesion like that and you compose functions. I very rarely use begin... The time when I do is when I'm trying to interface with something procedural, such as a database. > > Huh? My personal site is entertainingly broken at the moment (try it > > in moz), but I don't recall there being any non-relative internal URLs > > on it, as that's a pet hate of mine. > http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ from your sig. > Left nav bar. Moz 0.9.2. I see no relative links. You do know the towers.org.uk thing is a redirect? (Anyone else want one?) -- MJR Thesis watch: 27% This is my personal web site =-> http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.alug.org.uk/ <-- This is the LUG I go to I work for this clever internet developer ==> http://www.luminas.co.uk/

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competition for you ...........
by Jenny_Hopkins＠toby-churchill.com 08 Sep '01

08 Sep '01

http://bigmouth.here-n-there.com/ Czech Republic was brilliant. How was the linux wanderfest for those that went?

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HHGTTG text adventure game Absolute classic!!
by Adam Bower 07 Sep '01

07 Sep '01

Hi all, just found this link to a java version of the text based hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy adventure game..... http://www.douglasadams.com/creations/infocomjava.html Do you know where YOUR towel is?? Adam -- This message is Copyleft - all rights reversed Adam

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Re: [alug social] competition for you ...........
by MJ Ray 04 Sep '01

04 Sep '01

Adam Bower <abower(a)thebowery.co.uk> writes: > The LBW was really great! there was much beer drinking and a good time was > had by all. There was talk of going to the Czech republic for a future LBW > but there is a lack of people who are able to organise things there. Yep, after Belgium and Germany, the Czech Rep has got to be one of the great beer places to visit. However, you would definitely need enough local guides to keep you out of trouble and many visitors would need visas. -- MJR This is my personal web site =-> http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://www.alug.org.uk/ <-- This is the LUG I go to I work for this clever internet developer ==> http://www.luminas.co.uk/

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Social September 2001