Adam, there are always many sides to most debates, but this is what my feelings are on this (hope it makes sense):
Today, I am reading the Eastern Daily Press and I see a big advert with the title "Women into Networking" which is a free course, for people aged 19 or over which covers the "CISCO network academy" and also gives you the A+ certificate at the end of it. The course is receiving special funding from the government and the European Social Fund. Of course there is a big catch, "women only" now as Kirsty will be able to confirm, I am most definitely not a woman. Now I would like some opinions from people here about
a. is this sexual discrimination?
Well, yes.
b. is this fair? c. am i justified in complaining about this?
It is perhaps trying to redress the balance of the last century. Women doing the same jobs as men are still promoted less and paid less. Often these women are struggling to keep a good job that requires full time commitment whilst running a home and family (as most men still leacve the majority of this to women even when both work full time). Women with IT skills are not as respected as their male contemporaries who can sometimes just have louder voices, larger egos and smaller brains. I speak from experience. We all know this. The people who set up the course will know this. It does not answer the problems that you have finding a similar course, but perhaps rather than complaining about this course it would be more prudent to look into ways of getting a course that does encompass you: get in touch with the people who set up this course and ask them where they got their funding, for example.
d. do you know of any good people to complain to? I am currently taking this up with the college, the job centre, the agencies who are providing funding to the course and local MPs and MEPs. I think I will contact the papers/tele/radio types next week.
Don't you think it would be a pity to take something away from the women you will benefit from the course? As I say, they have had an unfair time of it over the last 50 years, women in IT need a break. I can understand your frustration, though. You're not one of the ones with a loud voice and small brain :-)
In my opinion, it is a bloody good thing to get more women into IT and more respected. I also think it is time to drop some of the shackles both men and women are starting to drag around because of what society has currently developed into. How about campaigning for jobsharing, irrespective of sex, for a start? We could all do with less pressure and there would also be enough work to go round.
Next week: Women in Plumbing. :-) Jenny
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On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 02:00:33PM -0000, Jenny Hopkins wrote:
Don't you think it would be a pity to take something away from the women you will benefit from the course? As I say, they have had an unfair time of it over the last 50 years, women in IT need a break.
Thing is, I am not trying to take anything away from the people who want to do the course, all the other courses are open to anyone and there is no discrimination there. Why is there no course for "Afro-Caribbeans only"?
I am extremely frustrated that I can't get education to help further my career now, I have been told by the college that I can take the course starting september this year but I would have to pay fees of over 350 quid! (if they manage to get funding, if not I will have to pay £1300, like thats going to be a possibility for anyone claiming benefit)
I don't see whats wrong with campaigns to encourage all types of people onto these courses, just that it is wholey unfair in my eyes to discriminate against who can and can't get further education.
Adam
On 2004-03-04 16:01:03 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
I am extremely frustrated that I can't get education to help further my career now [...]
I think you're exaggerating now. You can't get this education, but there is much more out there. I know it's annoying to read but: do try to keep a sense of proportion.
Personally, I take a very dim view of most modern qualifications and the current direction of state education. So, I put my time and money where my beliefs are and mentor a small number of people at any time, since starting my own firm and only working 10 hour days. Recently, my learners have included an electicity grid company librarian and an audio system developer.
This is the first time I've written in public about this and I don't look for new learners (usually... there's been one exception, but he didn't seem that interested, so I let it reinforce my approach), because I already do as much as I can cope with. Do any other ALUGgers mentor? Do you take part in UK-wide mentor programmes?
It's sort of bizarre. At the same time, I'm a learner myself in business practice, with a state-funded mentor. I think I'm still even a UEA student, technically, but that's really got pretty confusing lately.
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 04:41:51PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2004-03-04 16:01:03 +0000 adam@thebowery.co.uk wrote:
I am extremely frustrated that I can't get education to help further my career now [...]
I think you're exaggerating now. You can't get this education, but there is much more out there. I know it's annoying to read but: do try to keep a sense of proportion.
Agreed, but what has annoyed me most is that last month I was told that there was no call for this training in Norfolk after spending nearly 6 weeks trying to get information out of the college. Then this month to see that they after restricting availability of the course to a smaller group of people that they can provide it. If anyone else knows of any courses that would be relevant for me and start now and end in December or before this year that would be applicable for me then please let me know. So far I have found nothing i suitable.
Adam
On 2004-03-04 14:00:33 +0000 Jenny Hopkins Jenny@toby-churchill.com wrote:
Don't you think it would be a pity to take something away from the women you will benefit from the course? As I say, they have had an unfair time of it over the last 50 years, women in IT need a break.
I think it's as much a pity to take something away from the men who would benefit from a course. Surely the aim is to give it to the people who will benefit the most? I doubt gender is a very reliable indicator for that. You really can't remedy past unfairness by being unfair to more people.
Looking at this problem more generally, there are "women" free software projects, like women.kde.org and linuxchix. (Interestingly, I don't think there are any GNU projects?) Introducing division like that doesn't seem a good way to try to fix any bugs: concerning yourself with only one aspect of discrimination often suggests discrimination in the opposite sense.
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adam＠thebowery.co.uk -
Jenny Hopkins -
MJ Ray